Core Rulebook Splitting

[Sartris]

So we know now that TacOps is getting split in half to Advanced Units and Equipment and Advanced Rules

I went ahead and crunched the possible numbers (I don't have normal hobbies). I left out the intro, index, and record sheets so the actual counts are probably +~20pg. the fiction was left in the page counts.

Advanced Rules
Advanced Ground Movement (55 pg)
Advanced Combat (39 pg)
Advanced Buildings (33 pg)
General Rules (51 pg)
Charts and Tables (6 pg)

Total - 184 pages

Advanced Units and Equipment
Advanced Support Vehicles (29 pg)
Advanced Support Vehicle Construction (43 pg)
Advanced Weapons and Equipment (108 pg)
Advanced Battle Values (7 pg)
Charts and Tables (15 pg)

Total - 202 pages


we know that

A 400 page supplemental game book is not viable, on many levels.

which has portents for SO and IO reprints

I've got SO getting split into Advanced Aerospace (aka battlespace 2)... plus the customization rules that are there and Battleforce, both at around 200 pages each. that leaves the miniature rules orphaned but it always felt weird stuffed into IO. At 27 pages, it would slide into TW rather nicely in place of the painting and mods guide?

IO gets split into Alternate eras at around 230 and what i'm calling "Big Combat" (SBF, ASC, ISaW) at around 150-160.

wild times we live in

[pheonixstorm]

As long as they split the price too.

[Two Guns Blazing]

Having so many rule books would seem to fall out-of-line with the desire to make the game more accessible (i.e. less confusing) for newer players...combining TRO's, yet splitting rule books.

[Phobos101]

There are things I find myself flipping between different rulebooks for things that are very closely related, for example Campaign Ops often needs support from IO and SO if you're running a merc company. hopefully if the changes continue, there will be some rationalization of which topics are in the same book and which ones aren't.

[Wrangler]

As long as they split the price too.

You realize that the two books may add up more than the original right?

[ActionButler]

Having so many rule books would seem to fall out-of-line with the desire to make the game more accessible (i.e. less confusing) for newer players...combining TRO's, yet splitting rule books.

I don’t disagree, but I wonder how many people actually use the Advanced rules.  Attracting new blood to the game by combining everything from the Invasion Era is a bit different than dividing up the rules for super duper heavy aircraft carriers and skidding on pavement when you’re running downhill in the rain on a Thursday.

[Daryk]

Splitting alone does seem odd.  Reorganizing would make more sense for new print runs of this scale.

[RifleMech]

You realize that the two books may add up more than the original right?

Unfortunately and I doubt it'd stop there.  >:( There's also SO, IO, and CO after it. But didn't they just release a new edition of TO a year ago?  ???

I don't have a problem with new rule books coming out. But why start in the middle of the set? If TPTB are going to reorganize things, why not start at the beginning?

And if a 400 page book is too big why make it so big in the first place?

[Sartris]

Having so many rule books would seem to fall out-of-line with the desire to make the game more accessible (i.e. less confusing) for newer players...combining TRO's, yet splitting rule books.

I don’t disagree, but I wonder how many people actually use the Advanced rules.  Attracting new blood to the game by combining everything from the Invasion Era is a bit different than dividing up the rules for super duper heavy aircraft carriers and skidding on pavement when you’re running downhill in the rain on a Thursday.

I know I used adobe and split off the rules I actually use in TO into separate PDFs, but not how they split it (advanced gear; mines and artillery). Haven’t brought TO to a game more than a couple times and I’ve played a few hundred games since it came out. It hasn’t been reprinted since 2012, not unlike SO and AToW so I don’t know if people are breaking down their doors to acquire them in massive numbers.

There’s a package of rules I call “standard plus” that I’d just add to TW that I use when I gm - single arm flip, one arm prop while prone, back down hills with psr, basic fire and smoke (as part of scenario rules),etc. I’d also put artillery and mines back in the main book like they were in bmr. Weather, expanded crits, anything with an MoS, spreading fires and smoke - I just let alone.

As long as they split the price too.

Oh sweet summer child...

I’m guessing $39.99 each

There's also SO, IO, and CO after it.

SO will definitely split, IO is years out from getting a turn, and CO is under 200 pages so they won’t touch that. The TO release was pdf errata corrections so it’s not like they sent it to the printer and spent that money. All of the changes were being made anyway.

I don't have a problem with new rule books coming out. But why start in the middle of the set? If TPTB are going to reorganize things, why not start at the beginning?

A good question though my gut instinct is time crunch and money. My initial speculation was that they’d pull post-2008 advanced gear from sourcebooks and IO plus stuff like LAMs and tripods. It would also give them a chance to reset the in universe perspective from 3067 to 3150 to match the BMM. But that takes time from other stuff that people really want. The KS is all consuming

And if a 400 page book is too big why make it so big in the first place?

Do you make the same financial decisions you did in 2007?

[Adrian Gideon]

There’s no reorganization here. It’s split. Chop in half like King Solomon and the baby. It’s not *worth* it to CGL to produce for this new set as a 400+page book.

[dgorsman]

Unfortunately and I doubt it'd stop there.  >:( There's also SO, IO, and CO after it. But didn't they just release a new edition of TO a year ago?  ???

I don't have a problem with new rule books coming out. But why start in the middle of the set? If TPTB are going to reorganize things, why not start at the beginning?

And if a 400 page book is too big why make it so big in the first place?

Already started: BMM.

[Daryk]

Will errata going forward provide dual page citations so those of us with older books can find the changes?  Or do we need to buy the "new edition"?

[Sartris]

Already started: BMM.

Interestingly enough, game of armored combat + the clan invasion box rules recreates a good portion of the 1994 Compendium.

I dunno if bmm constitutes so much a restart/reorganization of the rules as a fork. The imminent TO reprint alongside the other core rules doesn’t give me the impression they’re going away anytime soon.

Will errata going forward provide dual page citations so those of us with older books can find the changes?  Or do we need to buy the "new edition"?

I’m guessing no on the errata but since it’s a straight reprint, you can still turn to the relevant section fairly easily. Still unknown whether if you bought the pdf you get the new split volume for free. Not ideal, but I’m more a find the best solution in a situation I can’t change kind of guy

[Adrian Gideon]

Will errata going forward provide dual page citations so those of us with older books can find the changes?

Unfortunately, no.

[Daryk]

Ok... new edition it is, then.  I'll shelve my older books as the new ones come out.  At least they'll have that nice spine art to keep them company...

[Cache]

Ok... new edition it is, then.  I'll shelve my older books as the new ones come out.  At least they'll have that nice spine art to keep them company...

Or, if the book is truly split somewhere in the middle, we figure out a simple formula for references. i.e. Book 1 = (possibly) same reference page number. Book 2 = 200 + reference page number.

[idea weenie]

Will errata going forward provide dual page citations so those of us with older books can find the changes?  Or do we need to buy the "new edition"?

Now we know the reason for Starfleet Battles using rules references rather than page references

I.e. Strategic Operations C06.T05 means look in (or correct) Strategic Operations, chapter 6, table #5, no matter what page it is actually on.

I am adding the zeroes because (for example) I often get confused looking for 7.12, and not finding it between 7.1 and 7.2

[Sartris]

Or, if the book is truly split somewhere in the middle, we figure out a simple formula for references. i.e. Book 1 = (possibly) same reference page number. Book 2 = 200 + reference page number.

Unlikely as for whatever reason the General Rules section (artillery, mines, double blind, etc) was placed after advanced support vehicle rules. There’s also a question of which half advanced buildings fall (since you build them like units and they have record sheets)

[Daryk]

So there is a (minimal) amount of reorganization.  Too bad it wasn't farmed out as a crowd sourced/fan project.

[Wrangler]

So there is a (minimal) amount of reorganization.  Too bad it wasn't farmed out as a crowd sourced/fan project.

You would think they would have reorganized it, given the effort done with the Battlemech manual.

[Sartris]

Rewritten, reformatted, and revised if you want it to be like BMM. It’s a new book which increases development time, cost, and sucks up product bandwidth. In terms of opportunity cost, the Kickstarter seems like a better investment of company resources

[kinwolf]

What is the difference, production wise,  btw 2x200 pages books versus 1x400 pages book? 

[Sartris]

Reprint flexibility for one. I have a feeling the equipment one will sell much better. It’s much cheaper to go back and order another set of the one that sells.

Psychology is a factor too. If I’m trying to decide what I want to buy, cheaper options let me play the rules I’m more interested in and then go back and get the other volume if I like the outcome

[Cache]

Unlikely as for whatever reason the General Rules section (artillery, mines, double blind, etc) was placed after advanced support vehicle rules.

This confuses me, because of AG's previous statement...

There’s no reorganization here. It’s split. Chop in half like King Solomon and the baby.

[Sartris]

I mean that’s just my take and I’m less reliable than a Magic eight ball. From the base-level amateur editing I’ve done it’s not hard to move sections around unless the even-odd sequence gets broken.

If they do decided to just cut the thing in half, it won’t comport as well to the implied contents of the titles

addendum: looking at TO, i can see how a "Solomon Chop" would work (PLEASE make this a canon physical attack).

Option 1: Right Down the Middle (well, as right down the middle as it can be between chapters)

Advanced Rules
Advanced Ground Movement (55 pg)
Advanced Combat (39 pg)
Advanced Support Vehicles (29 pg)
Advanced Buildings (33 pg)
General Rules (51 pg)

Advanced Units and Equipment
Advanced Support Vehicle Construction (43 pg)
Advanced Weapons and Equipment (108 pg)
Advanced Battle Values (7 pg)

pros: same size
cons: stuff in the general rules section for artillery and mines especially are in a different book than the artillery and mines equipment rules

Option 2: Slide to the Left
Advanced Rules
Advanced Ground Movement (55 pg)
Advanced Combat (39 pg)
Advanced Support Vehicles (29 pg)
Advanced Buildings (33 pg)

Advanced Units and Equipment
General Rules (51 pg)
Advanced Support Vehicle Construction (43 pg)
Advanced Weapons and Equipment (108 pg)
Advanced Battle Values (7 pg)

pros: mines and artillery united once again
cons: some definite rules stuff in the mix that belongs in the other book


my particular bias doesn't want to have to consult two books for artillery and mines, which means i can largely keep the first half on the shelf. The down the middle split creates a more TW-TM dichotomy with gameplay stuff on one side and construction/non-gameplay rules on the other - though the advanced equipment is too intertwined to separate and too large to not anchor its own half.

barring a radical reorganization, i'd rather just have one book, but we're a bit far down the path for that now

[SCC]

Now we know the reason for Starfleet Battles using rules references rather than page references

I.e. Strategic Operations C06.T05 means look in (or correct) Strategic Operations, chapter 6, table #5, no matter what page it is actually on.

I am adding the zeroes because (for example) I often get confused looking for 7.12, and not finding it between 7.1 and 7.2

I don't know about SFB, but I've got the current Starfire rules and both games where originally put out by the same people and the current setup for Starfire is each chapter gets a letter, even if the entire chapter is optional, and each chapter will be divided up into a maximum of 9 sections (a signle digit), then you have a period, then up to 99 sub-sections (2 digits), with further sub-divisions being a period and then a single additional digit. An example is L4.02.2.4.1 What can go in the Government Pool? Tables use the rule number of the rules their attached to, like so: Table L4.02 CFN Capacity Pools.

[Kitsune413]

I don’t disagree, but I wonder how many people actually use the Advanced rules.  Attracting new blood to the game by combining everything from the Invasion Era is a bit different than dividing up the rules for super duper heavy aircraft carriers and skidding on pavement when you’re running downhill in the rain on a Thursday.

It's the fact that it's a Thursday that really matters in that equation.

So close to the end of the five day MechWarrior work week people get careless....

[RifleMech]

SO will definitely split, IO is years out from getting a turn, and CO is under 200 pages so they won’t touch that. The TO release was pdf errata corrections so it’s not like they sent it to the printer and spent that money. All of the changes were being made anyway.

A good question though my gut instinct is time crunch and money. My initial speculation was that they’d pull post-2008 advanced gear from sourcebooks and IO plus stuff like LAMs and tripods. It would also give them a chance to reset the in universe perspective from 3067 to 3150 to match the BMM. But that takes time from other stuff that people really want. The KS is all consuming

Do you make the same financial decisions you did in 2007?

Problem is with more and more becoming tournament legal more is going to have to be put in Total Warfare or its new equivalent.

Wasn't some of the errata missing from the last release of TO?

If resetting the in universe perspective means gathering all tournament items together, that is something that needs to be done. The BMM doesn't really work for that. Its sort of its own thing. Frankly I'm not sure why it is. Although the new quirks are cool.


Since I've been waiting this long to buy an updated edition I'm willing to pay for it. Although I had been hoping they redo the books so all the rules for an item were together. Its frustrating having to not only flip thru multiple pages but multiple books to find out what something does.

[Charlie Tango]

I dunno if bmm constitutes so much a restart/reorganization of the rules as a fork. The imminent TO reprint alongside the other core rules doesn’t give me the impression they’re going away anytime soon.

BMM was intended as a "median step", something in between the starter rules and TW,  that was focused on being useful for the (large) majority of games played which are only using 'Mechs.

[Sartris]

i'm not a huge fan of off-board artillery so the abstract support system was a welcome addition. with the inclusion of most 3145-standard and common advanced gear i only need TO if i'm up to something awful.