Author Topic: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion  (Read 16529 times)

Grey

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Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« on: 23 June 2015, 05:44:38 »
Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
Who: Caleb Davion
   Aka Caleb Hasek-Sandoval-Davion
What: First Prince of the Federated Suns
When: 3099 – 25 June 3144
Weapon of Choice: Marksman Tank

The Dark Age has produced a diverse range of leaders, mostly ambitious, generally conniving, and some with surprising competencies. And some are Caleb Davion.

The only offspring of Harrison Davion and his wife Isabella Hasek, he is the merger of the three major ruling bloodlines of the Federated Suns, not that this matters to anyone since the March seats already have their own distinctive lines which have proudly thumbed their noses at New Avalon for Caleb’s entire lifetime.

The difficulty in conceiving him resulted in his mother showering him with attention, something Harrison was uncomfortable with but with only the one heir he did not feel he could force the issue.

First the obvious must be stated: Caleb Davion was a bad Prince.

Crazy was one thing, and will be addressed, but it caused him to be paranoid, untrusting, micromanaging at a time when communications are massively delayed, jealous, and, well, basically a walking list of the worst human personality traits. And unlike a lot of other insane characters, mostly Liao, he had no qualities that made him capable or even mildly competent as a leader, civilian or military. He had no obsession, drive, cunning, intellect or anything the least bit useful for the position of First Prince.

Harrison Davion weakened the Federated Suns by buying whole heartedly into Devlin Stone’s disarmament program, he can be forgiven somewhat since he was a believer and it was ostensibly peacetime. Out of all of the leaders there had to be one naïve fool. However it was Caleb who crippled the nation though bad decisions and leadership in wartime.

Of course Caleb was also a bad human being as well. Rape is one of the few universally reviled crimes amongst humans, due to the absence of subjectiveness around the act, and while Caleb, delusional nut that he is, perceives Danai as a willing participant the simple fact is he is a rapist and therefore an evil character.

Patricide is almost as bad but after raping Danai pushing his father off a balcony in an angry impulse pales. However it is another important act by the character, showing how carelessly destructive he can be and how utterly unaware of things like consequences he is. Even though this act secures him the throne by removing his father before Julian can be made heir these were not Caleb’s motivations, he was just angry and acted.

Sadly, of the short list of people who know what actually happened in these cases none are going to make it public, and so within the setting Caleb is not publicly known as being this sort of evil.

Incompetent, certainly, that much would have very quickly become obvious to what fiction and sourcebooks show to be an already befuddled military, and would have soon pressed itself upon a public struggling to keep up with the border changes.

And of course the crazy has to be mentioned in more detail, for while some Houses are famous for it and more than one Federated Suns ruler has been slightly off-kilter Caleb took that to new extremes for the entire setting, being literal doing-what-an-imaginary-friend-tells-him-to-do-crazy.

The imaginary friend, Mason Lambert, is a personification for the more violent, disgusting urges Caleb has, his comments urging Caleb on, and isn’t revealed to be imaginary until the end of the novel “Sword of Sedition”. This is a common literary technique for creating suspense and drama. And for a character like Caleb this sort of hallucination provides a sort of short hand for explaining what is going on in his head.

Why must he be like this? For one thing it gives a legitimate reason for the faction to become so badly weakened by 3145. Demobilising, downsizing, and a string of military defeats is not enough, for so much disaster on two fronts something has to be seriously wrong and you can’t go more seriously wrong than a guy who could conceivably appoint thin air as the Prince’s Champion.

It is also another step away from the Federated Suns being the ‘hero’ faction, filled with do gooders, hyper-competent leaders, military geniuses, battlefield terrors and intelligent rulers. While few could lay claim to all of the above or even three at best, Caleb is none and puts his own spin on things.

Arguably the rape does something similar, however there is a small point of difference as that is a personal act, not the act of a leader or ruler authorising mass rape, or something equally vile, so reprehensible that it would likely put people off the Federated Suns as a faction for the future.

Ultimately it does place the Federated Suns where it needs to be: On the ropes. Time and again in Battletech a faction has been brought to this point only to rally and reassert itself, even if it does take a few decades, its good drama, if a little overused, and people love to play the underdog, there’s something innately heroic about it.

His death is, aside from inevitable, as strangely fitting as it was unforeseen: accidentally killed by a frustrated Combine MechWarrior when captured in his tank.

This means that Caleb Davion went down swinging, in proud First Prince tradition, and went down stupidly, in proud First Prince tradition.

In truth he could never have been taken alive, while I’m not sure what any nation’s response to their leader being taken hostage is, if the Federated Suns has no mechanism for removing a dangerous incompetent they have no greater hope of functioning with a hostage Prince. At best he would be ransomed back for the Draconis March, at worst he would be a puppet vassal for whatever was left of the nation.

Did he have to die like that? Well, yes. On the small scale he died either because he refused to surrender and fought to the bitter end or refused to recognise his situation and fought because he still thought he could pull it all out of the fire, assault the Draconis Combine and win.

On the larger scale he died as the result of bad, overly ambitious, egotistical planning being hit by a single betrayal and a superior enemy.

In short Caleb was trying to build the mother of all assault forces under his direct command, with Snow Raven naval assistance to take the fight to the Draconis Combine, attempting to prove to the entire setting he wasn’t Hanse Davion’s great grandson, Hanse Davion was his great granddaddy.

Why did he trust the Ravens? Because he was having an affair with Khan Stirling McKenna, something his father did which he abhorred, however this is an act initiated by Khan McKenna as a part of her long term manipulation of the Federated Suns and shows that both father and son were quite easily manipulated by a charming woman.

While in principle this large scale mobilisation and assault is exactly what needed to happen he made the mistake of putting everything, himself included, on one planet.

Theoretically this could have been done because communications were too poor to coordinate an assault force spread over a distance, however it is more likely because his paranoid, controlling nature prevented him from trusting a simple mission clock as Hanse famously did.

Besides, to his thinking what’s the use of having the mother of all assault forces under his command if he hasn’t gathered them all in a great big pile he can put a chair on top of he can sit in?

It would have looked impressive and may have had a chance if the Ravens hadn’t informed the Combine and kept their fleet at home. This is all the more reason why it had to be ambushed so badly, any success by Caleb Davion lessens his reputation as a bad leader.

Could it have succeeded? Probably not as grandly as Caleb would want, they could have retaken Robinson or maybe made it back to the old border, however Caleb’s command style, which seemed to revolve around deciding which ‘Mech fired what gun when, would have hampered progress severely and made any success extremely slow going. More likely it would have bogged down creating another disputed zone, this time deep within the Draconis March border.

Given the crime perpetrated against her death by Danai would have been cathartic for most readers, and debatably so for Danai, it would actually simply be more of a closing of a circle, not necessarily good story telling, and would be more about Danai than Caleb. She would either find closure or a lack thereof in the act and that would be her story, she had more than enough skills to pull it off if she came close to Caleb again.

Dying in the field as his own poor planning and leadership dooms him and much of the AFFS is much more fitting for Caleb from the perspective of that character, it puts a full stop on just how horrible he was.

And it’s not just in writing either. Looking at the one picture we have of him the impression is of a man highly indignant that his image is being requested or even taken, either because we should know who he is or because he doesn’t like the idea of someone stealing his soul.

There’s no politics about him, he doesn’t look the least bit military despite the uniform, in fact there’s very little that characterises him as being a part of the Battletech setting.

Part of this is because he isn’t a MechWarrior, as most prominent leaders are, somewhat uniquely he commands from a tank, a Marksman in fact, probably the export model but for the heir of a strong ally the Republic may have allowed for it’s more potent version to be used, we are never told for certain.

This has several effects, for one thing it stigmatises Caleb, in and out of the setting, his father never really got used to the fact his son fought from a tank, further souring their tense relationship. Caleb picks up on this and assumes, rightly or wrongly, that everyone else feels the same way, especially compared to hyper-competent cousin Julian Davion.

Arguably this has the effect of exacerbating the crazy, however the crazy is the result of what is essentially brain damage he was born with that also prevented him from accepting a neurohelmet, and therefore piloting a ‘Mech, creating a neat little vicious circle.

So that is Caleb Davion, every bit as crazy as his Liao counterpart but expressed in a different way, and without the slightest redeeming feature or ability. His selfishness and arrogance could have doomed an entire faction, we now wait to see what heroes rally.

Next week: Jeremy Brett, unless a particularly compelling request comes up. ;)

Wrangler

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #1 on: 23 June 2015, 06:24:50 »
Caleb was I guess necessary evil by the writers to break up the FedSun's good luck mentality.  It was always a symbol of what good in the Inner Sphere, where there not suppose to be good guys.  I know that generic explanation, that my point of view. Wizkids needed something and the Fall of the Republic needed for everyone being out for themselves. The FedSuns was a big ally of the Republic.   With Caleb (aside of the person issues) was not friend of the Republic, he wanted fame, fortune, and to be the guy with little tin crown on his head.  His father spilling the beans to him to him that he wasn't going to give control of the FedSuns put him over edge, literately pushing his father to his death. Banishing Julian Davion out of the FedSuns, removing him as Champion due to his paranoia and full knowing his dad wanted him even if Julian didn't know about it.

It's a shame novels don't exist for this time period anymore, Caleb drama of mismanaging the FedSuns and the two-prong attack into the FedSuns itself would been heck of a read.

I would recommend Grey, to do a character write up on Vedet Brewer.   He's arguably as big of a architect to the fall of Commonwealth than anyone a aside from Melissa Steiner.



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False Son

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #2 on: 23 June 2015, 09:54:51 »
Why must he be like this? For one thing it gives a legitimate reason for the faction to become so badly weakened by 3145. Demobilising, downsizing, and a string of military defeats is not enough, for so much disaster on two fronts something has to be seriously wrong and you can’t go more seriously wrong than a guy who could conceivably appoint thin air as the Prince’s Champion.

He's a scapegoat.  The thing is, the AFFS is systematically "better" than their neighbors.  We know this from decades of handbooks and field manuals telling us they are larger, more professional and better organized.  What we need to understand is how such a systematically better faction could be so horribly defeated.  What we need is preface.  Lots and lots of preface.  I'd argue the AFFS has had more explanation put into why they are losing in the 3140s than any faction other than the CCAF's thoroughly documented humiliation in the 4th Succession War.  Caleb serves as part of that preface.  He still serves as an able scapegoat for AFFS apologists who can with some accuracy blame the current military crisis on Caleb's personal intervention into an AFFS that may have been dulled by the years of peace.

I'm just a little disappointed it was "The man with the imaginary friend" that caused all of the trouble with no one getting in his way. 
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Stormlion1

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #3 on: 23 June 2015, 18:10:26 »
Strangely enough when he first showed up I liked Caleb and his imaginary buddy and even felt bad for him a bit as you read how his old man really didn't care for him overly much. Didn't help that they had been making Julian Davion out as the White Knight of the Federated Suns. Heck, when he first met Danai they got along famously. And even they hadn't had issues outside there control could probably have had a good friendship building up over the years. But alas the writers decided killing his father in a accident and the imaginary buddy and the rape (yes, yes, we know he's evil.) were the way to go with Caleb. And strangely I think if the HPG's had not gone down and all that had happened had not he could have been a moderately successful ruler when he assumed the throne and Danai had later assumed the CapCon throne. Literally if they had met at the Victor Funeral and the Universe had not gone into a massive dustup the two could have improved relations between the two realms better than they had ever been because they were at the least friends before they became rulers. Even if Caleb was nuts and Danai was born of incest.

As for his not being a MechWarrior. I kind of liked that, though I was shocked he used a Marksman. You would think he would have had a Challenger X or a Alicorn or something more badass than a RoTS Export model tank! Something a little more homegrown would have been a better choice.

Seriously, the rulers of the Inner Sphere have some real issues here.
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Nahuris

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #4 on: 23 June 2015, 18:17:48 »
The Fed Suns is unique in Battletech, as they were, from the beginning sort of portrayed as All American Good Guys, as well as the "gold standard" for the houses or forces. Their units were painted Red, White, and Blue and their warriors were tall, cleft chinned, heroes. They were putting down the Current Chinese Evil Empire, and they were still enemies of the Japanese Evil Empire, but that was more of a past thing.... a great war of past decades where the enemy had done a surprise attack at Kentares IV.... etc..... but those battles were more of a part of the setting, not so much thought of, in the current era. 

The problem is, people get bored playing the winners, all the time..... and the game grew from a Beer and Pretzels game, into a full fledged novel series, and gained background fluff. Even the merge with Steiner was written to show that while House Steiner had great industrial and financial might, it was the "superior" tactics and structure of the AFFS that was dominant in the military.

So, how do you knock the poster child down some --- one, you break them down with a war that forces them to redefine who they are ---- as in, the FedCom Civil War. Two, you give them a secession of bad rulers... Yvonne wasn't bad, she was just mediocre... she was actually never the actual ruler of House Davion, as she did not have the required military service and training. However, as regent, she is the one who made the decision to pull out of the Star League, which, while she could not have predicted it, did lead to the Jihad, and more hammering of House Davion, which is just another destructive war on top of the civil war .... so at a point, when units are just picking themselves back up, trying to replace lost equipment, and everyone is getting new green trainees..... they get to play in the meat grinder again.
Then, we get her son, Harrison --- who grew up in the aftermath of the Jihad, which came on top of the Civil War. That, to me, would explain a LOT of his willingness to drink Stone's Kool Aid by the bucketful. And while his reign would have been peaceful, it also came on he heels of two back to back wars that were extremely destructive, with heavy civilian casualties and suffering. Katherine seems to not have spared any opportunity to make people suffer for failing to worship her graven image with slavish devotion, to the point where, in one novel, she refers to her adviser as a doormat, and notes that if he gives her news she doesn't like, it would be time to find another doormat. Harrison would have been growing up in the aftermath of her actions, along with the decision of his mother that led to the Jihad,  and would have seen first hand, the suffering that people can go through.

So, he disarmed, and focused on projects for his people. Else, his house might not even have survived.

Now, we have the perfect storm for Caleb. Seriously, Harrison made a major mistake in not choosing Julian, and going public with it, sooner. You have a mental illness that is pervasive. The paranoia should have been noted, and recognized sooner, and had Harrison been paying attention, he could have averted the whole mess, that is Caleb's brief reign. The thing is, though, and one thing that comes up a lot with him, is his rape of Danai ----
That is one thing that is hard to categorize with Caleb -- yes, it fits with both his mental issues, and also, with his low self control, in that he tends to act in emotion, and not with logic..... but, as a descendant of a House Lord, there are issues with that. Especially in light of his own family history.....
Davions do seem to be very short sighted when noble blood is thrown around .... referring back to Katherine ...... many of the Davion units were more than willing to accept her, based on who mommy and daddy were. And now, Caleb has potentially given a Liao..... specifically THE LIAO that is in line to inherit the thrones of both House Liao, and The Magistracy.... a possible heir with blood ties to the Davion Throne. I cannot say I understand his particular action,  at all, his giving into the moment, and doing what he did with Danai ..... but afterwards, he didn't even consider the possible disaster he might have made. And that, to me, is the final straw that makes Caleb such a poor person, and the worst ruler any faction could have had ..... However, he was merely the final nail in a coffin built by the previous few generations.

The fact that he was convinced he was some great military genius, and that he had to micromanage every detail is almost forgivable. Our own history has had many rulers with that fault, and some even survived it.....  however, really, he was little more than the frosting on a crap cake, that had been baking for a while.

Nahuris
« Last Edit: 23 June 2015, 18:24:05 by Nahuris »
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sillybrit

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #5 on: 23 June 2015, 20:14:52 »
When the character of Caleb was developed I have to wonder whether whoever came up with the key points had just watched Gladiator: Emperor Marcus Aurelius (Harrison) decides that he wants his key general (Prince's Champion), Maximus Decimus Meridius (Julian), to be his heir instead of his son, Commodus (Caleb). The latter reacts badly to the news, killing his father and taking power.

The Fed Suns is unique in Battletech, as they were, from the beginning sort of portrayed as All American Good Guys, as well as the "gold standard" for the houses or forces. Their units were painted Red, White, and Blue and their warriors were tall, cleft chinned, heroes. They were putting down the Current Chinese Evil Empire, and they were still enemies of the Japanese Evil Empire, 

I also see signs of FASA's previous work with Star Trek games, with the "noble/heroic" Suns in the role of the Federation, the "brutal/warlike" Combine as the Klingons and the "sneaky/untrustworthy" Capellans as the Romulans.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #6 on: 23 June 2015, 20:22:34 »
A comment I once saw on this site was that Caleb Davion was the best thing that ever happened to the Federated Suns.

I couldn't agree more.. and not because of the state of the conflicts in 3145 but because the Davion faction needed some depth to their White Hat status.  Liao and Kurita got some grown-up dimensions added to their moustache-twirling bad guy image, but Davion never had anything to add dimensions to their Dudley Do-Right treatment until Caleb.


Besides, you can't have an epic comeback without first being down big at halftime.
I can't imagine TPTB not having Davion coming out of the aftermath of Caleb stronger than it ever was before.

sillybrit

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #7 on: 23 June 2015, 22:43:58 »
but Davion never had anything to add dimensions to their Dudley Do-Right treatment until Caleb.

Never?

Etien, Edward and Edmund Davion might disagree. Madness, arbitrary executions, self-indulgence, tyranny, murder and explosive violent tempers aren't what I'd call good.

There's also James Davion, the adulterous womanizer, Laura and Cassandra Davion, the would-be usurpers, and let's not forget Katherine Steiner-Davion.

There's also their enthusiasm to conquer the Taurians as their part of the Reunification Wars to force the unwilling Periphery into the Star League, and going back earlier, enslaving and transporting the population of Bell.

The Davions might not have been in the same ballpark as the Kuritans or Liaos, but they have long been a shade of grey at best.

Nahuris

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #8 on: 23 June 2015, 22:50:23 »
Never?

Etien, Edward and Edmund Davion might disagree. Madness, arbitrary executions, self-indulgence, tyranny, murder and explosive violent tempers aren't what I'd call good.

There's also James Davion, the adulterous womanizer, Laura and Cassandra Davion, the would-be usurpers, and let's not forget Katherine Steiner-Davion.

There's also their enthusiasm to conquer the Taurians as their part of the Reunification Wars to force the unwilling Periphery into the Star League, and going back earlier, enslaving and transporting the population of Bell.

The Davions might not have been in the same ballpark as the Kuritans or Liaos, but they have long been a shade of grey at best.

Which is true, but a lot of that was added in, once Catalyst got the game ----- prior to that, they were seriously the All American White Hat Team of the 80's and 90's....

At that time, that dichotomy of Good Guy / Bad Guy was pretty prevalent in Science Fiction --- it was the era of the the Empire vs. the Rebellion, and the Cylons vs. the Humans.......Etc. While it was part of things then, we've learned that wargames need everyone to be gray, so that any faction can be playable, and represented .....

Nahuris
"A friend will calm you down when you are angry, but a BEST friend will skip along beside you with a baseball bat singing "someone's gonna get it."

"If we are ever in a situation, where I am the voice of reason, we are in a very bad situation."

sillybrit

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #9 on: 23 June 2015, 22:57:07 »
Which is true, but a lot of that was added in, once Catalyst got the game

Nope. Apart from Katherine, all of that was from FASA's House Davion housebook and she also began her treachery under FASA's aegis.

Nahuris

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #10 on: 23 June 2015, 23:07:29 »
Nope. Apart from Katherine, all of that was from FASA's House Davion housebook and she also began her treachery under FASA's aegis.

Katherine always portrayed herself as a Steiner ...LOL
Didn't remember the rest, but then again, all my old books burned in a house fire, some years ago, and at my age, remembering what I ate for breakfast is getting challenging.....LOL

However, I always got the impression from the books that even when there were some, not quite white, Davions, that they were short lived, in the past, not thought of any more, and just written in, to try and give some depth...... without actually changing anything current ----- and while those particular Davions did exist, with the exception of Katherine, who styled herself as Katrina Steiner (wish her grandmother, the real Katrina, had still been alive to give her the paddling she so desperately needed), none of them have novels about them. So, they are footnotes, but not active. Max Liao was in novels and books..... as was Romano, so the story is fleshed out.

Nahuris

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sillybrit

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #11 on: 23 June 2015, 23:39:04 »
I agree that the examples were historical as far as game history goes, but then again so was much of the Kuritan bad boy reputation, for example. The point still stands though, that the Davions had plenty of dirty family background, so to say they never did is incorrect.

If anything, I'd say it was often the players' own projections that did more for their claimed good guy image, rather than what FASA actually published. The Davions were clearly one of the two protagonists early on in the game history, and it was only natural that this would garner them a larger share of followers. It's equally only natural that many of those followers would want to view the Davions in as good a light as possible, as people tend to like to think of themselves as being one of the good guys, so the less savory elements of the Davions and their history would be comfortably overlooked and/or excused.

Let's not forget, one Davion's liberation is a Capellan's subjugation (to paraphrase a saying that's edging rule #4 territory), and after some early hiccups the Suns has been oh so very, very good at "liberating".

Grey

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #12 on: 24 June 2015, 05:34:37 »
It is fair to say that Caleb is getting the Davion whites very messy, and while similar characters in the family line do exist, and have done for a long time, they are matters of the past, much like the very competent Liaos and unifying Mariks, and much like those historical figures because they haven't featured in recent literature, or any novels at all, they're not in the public mind.

Much as Liaos are considered crazy because of three out of the last four Chancellors, Davions are still considered 'White Hats' because of recent, featured, leaders, and most of the heroic main characters have been Davion too.

I'm not sure how much it needs to happen but no family line or ruling line is homogeneous, so a Caleb or five is going to enter into things.

As for how the Suns comes out of this, it's interesting. The major conflicts of late have been nothing but relentless beatdowns on all the militaries, and it takes time for them to come back from that, which they've just had. Coming out stronger may not be possible at this point, but stronger than others is a distinct possibility considering that for all that they've advanced both the Combine and Confederation have massively extended themselves. Simple economics and logistics may be their undoing before the new 'White Hats' of the Republic pull of their own massive resurgence.

And one thing that just occurred to me, Caleb was preparing to attack the Combine. There are a number of reasons for this, timing, the position of his supposed allies, Kuritians being the traditional foes, but it strikes me that another bit of reasoning in his warped mind might be the thought that since he and Danai were such close friends and such that the Confederation wouldn't be much of a threat to the Suns.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #13 on: 24 June 2015, 07:42:33 »
If there is one thing this article has told me it's to pretty much never, ever, ever, buy anything that features Caleb Davion.  Maybe in 1985 there was an excuse to be abelist about the mentally ill, but that doesn't fly with me today.  Caleb is a kind of caricature of the mentally ill, and as a designated villian reinforces a negative impression of all people with mental illness.  It's 2015, and that kind of thing really shouldn't fly anymore.  There are already so many people in Battletech who fill the 'crazy bad guy' role, do we really need another?  I'd gladly support a retcon of this guy's character, because it's just so ham-fisted and out of touch.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #14 on: 24 June 2015, 09:59:19 »
I don't see why everyone here seems to think that Caleb and Danai were "such good friends". They had a brief connection on the journey to Terra but as soon as Caleb found out who she was, it was "ick! Liao cooties!" and he resented her because he thought she had known who he was all along and was taking the piss by leading him on.

If there is one thing this article has told me it's to pretty much never, ever, ever, buy anything that features Caleb Davion.  Maybe in 1985 there was an excuse to be abelist about the mentally ill, but that doesn't fly with me today.  Caleb is a kind of caricature of the mentally ill, and as a designated villian reinforces a negative impression of all people with mental illness.  It's 2015, and that kind of thing really shouldn't fly anymore.  There are already so many people in Battletech who fill the 'crazy bad guy' role, do we really need another?  I'd gladly support a retcon of this guy's character, because it's just so ham-fisted and out of touch.

I really don't think it's the sources being ableist so much as it is the people in this thread who are calling him crazy. Caleb was not crazy, he was ill. But having an untreated paranoid schizophrenic as a leader is just not going to end up well for anyone. Especially one who had been neglected and passed over his whole life, allowed to stew in resentment and illwill towards his father and his favored cousin. Throw in a family legacy to live up to and Caleb was doomed from the start, as much by external and internal expectations as by his own brain chemistry.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #15 on: 24 June 2015, 19:34:56 »
Never?

Etien, Edward and Edmund Davion might disagree. Madness, arbitrary executions, self-indulgence, tyranny, murder and explosive violent tempers aren't what I'd call good.

There's also James Davion, the adulterous womanizer, Laura and Cassandra Davion, the would-be usurpers, and let's not forget Katherine Steiner-Davion.

There's also their enthusiasm to conquer the Taurians as their part of the Reunification Wars to force the unwilling Periphery into the Star League, and going back earlier, enslaving and transporting the population of Bell.

The Davions might not have been in the same ballpark as the Kuritans or Liaos, but they have long been a shade of grey at best.

I get your point, but that point ignores such trivia never made it out of "Gee whiz, did you know..." territory.  They were hardly ever a predominant* part of the faction flavor; that didn't happen until Caleb.

(excepting of course Katrina... but of course while you are probably not the first to say she's a Davion, you're the first *I've* ever heard say she's a Davion.)

*=the "living" faction flavor, if that clarifies better.
« Last Edit: 24 June 2015, 19:36:33 by Tai Dai Cultist »

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #16 on: 24 June 2015, 21:03:40 »
Now flip that and think about just what did the Kuritans really do bad post-3025 game start to deserve being commonly viewed as a black hat? We again rely upon their historical write up.

As for Katherine, she was raised with the intended goal that one day she would have been Victor's regent on New Avalon when the FedCom court was on Tharkad. The Lyrans were a means to an end, just look at what throne she aimed for.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #17 on: 24 June 2015, 22:03:23 »
Now flip that and think about just what did the Kuritans really do bad post-3025 game start to deserve being commonly viewed as a black hat? We again rely upon their historical write up.

As for Katherine, she was raised with the intended goal that one day she would have been Victor's regent on New Avalon when the FedCom court was on Tharkad. The Lyrans were a means to an end, just look at what throne she aimed for.

Actually, Like Liao, Kurita was evil, because they were opposing the White Hats. They didn't have to necessarily commit any acts, but were already villains due to their current opposition of the Good Guys in the early fiction. By their very existence, as opponents, they were bad.... because the early fiction was somewhat Davion focused..... and when you add in the fact that NONE of the previous Davions are mentioned in the TRO's --- while the Kurita attack on Kentares IV is mentioned in more than one of the mech's write ups, it sets the mood and opinion for the faction.

There is no Mech Fluff write up that tells how Edward Davion used X mech to fire on hospitals, but it IS mentioned how some mechs were particularly noted for firing on hospitals, in response to Jinjiro's order to Bathe Kentares in Blood. NO other atrocity is so specifically spelled out in the technical descriptions of the battlemechs, with the exception of the Kentares IV Massacre. And again, while playing one of the early historical modules, you get House Kurita, using poison on the Team Banzai pilots, during a battle.

There may have been bad Davions, but none of them made it to a module, using poison on their opponents.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #18 on: 24 June 2015, 22:32:45 »
Real fun was that after Takashi the Combine got a shot in the arm as a non-evil faction. A more neutral one, while Comstar the official neutral faction became either a good faction for some or a backstabbing manipulative faction for others.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #19 on: 24 June 2015, 23:27:38 »
If there is one thing this article has told me it's to pretty much never, ever, ever, buy anything that features Caleb Davion.  Maybe in 1985 there was an excuse to be abelist about the mentally ill, but that doesn't fly with me today.  Caleb is a kind of caricature of the mentally ill, and as a designated villian reinforces a negative impression of all people with mental illness.  It's 2015, and that kind of thing really shouldn't fly anymore.  There are already so many people in Battletech who fill the 'crazy bad guy' role, do we really need another?  I'd gladly support a retcon of this guy's character, because it's just so ham-fisted and out of touch.

I can support your overall view regarding the caricature angle, and while I was prepared to counter the "crazy bad guy" role part it occurred to me that one reason for making Caleb crazy was to lessen the impact on the FedSuns reputation. A sort of "pardon him, he's crazy" sort of thing that limits the tarnishing of things.

Looking back the article even starts with saying that Caleb has plenty of character flaws to be a bad leader without the crazy.

The only excuse I can think of at this point is that he's crazy and comes to power because of the feudal nature of the setting. Enough people were willing to overlook things because he was the most obvious viable heir and because of his surname.

I'm actually kind of disturbed by the implications of some of these thoughts.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #20 on: 25 June 2015, 00:08:06 »
The only excuse I can think of at this point is that he's crazy and comes to power because of the feudal nature of the setting. Enough people were willing to overlook things because he was the most obvious viable heir and because of his surname.

I'm actually kind of disturbed by the implications of some of these thoughts.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #21 on: 25 June 2015, 02:03:06 »
It's the basic flaw of inheritable positions. If all goes well, you get an heir who'd been trained all their life to handle their eventual responsibilities...and then it's kind of hard to argue in favor of preferring some random stranger who doesn't have that going for them instead, no matter the latter's credentials.

On the other hand, of course, if things go poorly and the heir's grooming goes pear-shaped or they're otherwise just not really qualified and there's no good working procedure in place to handle that (which there usually isn't)...well, then chances are excellent that you're stuck with them until some suitable replacement comes around, peacefully and "legitimately" or otherwise. Because that's just how the system is set up.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #22 on: 25 June 2015, 02:11:57 »
I can support your overall view regarding the caricature angle, and while I was prepared to counter the "crazy bad guy" role part it occurred to me that one reason for making Caleb crazy was to lessen the impact on the FedSuns reputation. A sort of "pardon him, he's crazy" sort of thing that limits the tarnishing of things.

Looking back the article even starts with saying that Caleb has plenty of character flaws to be a bad leader without the crazy.

The only excuse I can think of at this point is that he's crazy and comes to power because of the feudal nature of the setting. Enough people were willing to overlook things because he was the most obvious viable heir and because of his surname.

I'm actually kind of disturbed by the implications of some of these thoughts.

To be honest, Caleb could probably have been written as a spoiled egotist in control of his faculties, and likely arrived at the same place. However the Dark Age setting seems to follow certain patterns - crazy Caleb, crazy Malvina, crazy Daoshen, crazy Bounty Hunter guy...

I'm not too familiar with the Dark Age setting outside of Era Report 3145, and some synopses, but my question is this: While Caleb is a villain, did he do anything to make the FedSuns villainous?

He invades the Republic, "liberating" worlds in the Tikinov region and plots to invade the Capellan Confederation, but did he toss nukes around or have dissidents brutally suppressed by stalwart FedSun troops? He does kinda get a quick replay of old Max in the 4th Succession war with that whole betrayal thing, but just because he's bad does he really do anything to make the FedSuns less heroic? If anything, he just seems incompetent. In the end, this is all probably a set up for the FedSuns to rally and rise up against their enemies in the upcoming era.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #23 on: 25 June 2015, 03:16:20 »
I always thought the whole hero/villain thing is very suggestive in the BTU, the Fed Suns have always been the villain to Liao fans. If anything Celeb mirroring Mad Max only proves Great House Davion is just as flawed as any other Great Houses and it was their time to get kicked in the teeth.   
« Last Edit: 25 June 2015, 03:20:34 by SteelRaven »
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #24 on: 25 June 2015, 03:52:36 »
The Fed Suns is unique in Battletech, as they were, from the beginning sort of portrayed as All American Good Guys, as well as the "gold standard" for the houses or forces. Their units were painted Red, White, and Blue and their warriors were tall, cleft chinned, heroes.

Just FYI:



The Davions have been formed after the French in many ways and not so much after the USA, as many people make themselves believe.
« Last Edit: 25 June 2015, 03:54:29 by DarkISI »
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #25 on: 25 June 2015, 05:02:20 »
BINGO! (honestly, I've been screaming this for years)

Keep in mind that from a, well, a writing perspective this sort of situation, resulting from this sort of leadership, is exactly what is called for in a conflict heavy setting.

Absolute power that can be easily abused, hard to remove leaders, armies willing to follow petty egos, all create conflict which is what the Battletech setting is all about.

Still, that's not one of the aspects that creeped me out about Caleb being used in the character sense as he was.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #26 on: 25 June 2015, 06:05:04 »
Good writeup. Caleb Davion was meant from the beginning to get the short end of the stick; he really does seem to exist to give Team Davion their epic comeback against their enemies. *shrug* that's just how the BTU works.

You know what I'd really like to see? Instead of just giving the FedSuns a few setbacks to tarnish their whitehat reputation, how about giving the Davions a turn at being the blackhats? Real blackhats.

Caleb Davion should have been made the next Jinjiro Kurita. All the Davion military prowess, but at the same time he shows the Inner Sphere what crazy really is   [skull]
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #27 on: 25 June 2015, 06:27:24 »
Honestly, I don't believe in entire factions being ever "white" or "black" hats. Their leaders du jour, sure, that can happen; they're individuals to whom such terms may apply after due consideration, after all. But knowing about them already doesn't tell us all that much about the people even just a couple of steps down the ladder (who in-universe are traditionally just as likely to support them as to try and sabotage their efforts), let alone the vast more-or-less anonymous masses in various stages of personal hygiene that they distantly rule over. Chances are the hat of some lowly potato farmer in the Draconis combine (in a valiant attempt to buck the "they're Japanese IN SPACE, therefore they of course all eat rice!" stereotype) is in practice not actually appreciably lighter or darker than that of his or her counterpart somewhere in the Davion outback.

So, Caleb's not going to get me to boo the Federated Suns any more than Hanse and Victor managed to turn me into an uncritical fanboy; the rulers and their empires are distinct entities as far as I'm concerned, each with virtues and flaws of their own. Which I guess suggests I mightn't do so well in an actual feudal system, were I suddenly transplanted into one; lack of buy-in into the whole "cult of personality" mindset and all... ^-^

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #28 on: 25 June 2015, 12:59:56 »
Just FYI:



The Davions have been formed after the French in many ways and not so much after the USA, as many people make themselves believe.

Nah... they don't run away, enough.
LOL

In all seriousness, I do respect the French, even if my people did fight against them in the French and Indian War.
It does make a certain amount of sense, though, when you consider the Shadowhawk 2D, or Assassin 101.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #29 on: 25 June 2015, 14:30:08 »
Nah... they don't run away, enough.
LOL

In all seriousness, I do respect the French, even if my people did fight against them in the French and Indian War.
It does make a certain amount of sense, though, when you consider the Shadowhawk 2D, or Assassin 101.
close to rule 4 territory here, so lets watch it. but historically.. the french military is very capable and very brave. they just haven't always been as successful in their fights or given many chances to really show off.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #30 on: 25 June 2015, 14:34:23 »
Just FYI:



The Davions have been formed after the French in many ways and not so much after the USA, as many people make themselves believe.
Or maybe Red, White and Blue are very popular colors among states



It's always been clear to me that the Fed Suns are a Amalgam of different states with a love of Arthurian lore and made to be easily relatable.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #31 on: 25 June 2015, 15:04:19 »
The trouble with Caleb, to me, is the presence of his delusions.  "Insanity" as it has been demonstrated in Battletech sometimes tends to be heavy handed, but tends to focus on being a combination of ego and poor emotional balance facilitated by sycophantic underlings.  My personal experience with people suffering from paranoid schizophrenia leads me to believe that it would have been noticed well, well before Caleb was able to put the Federated Suns in danger.  So, it begs the question of me, did Caleb do a particularly good job of keeping his mental illness hidden, or did the trappings of power afforded to the First Prince allow him to continue in spite of his condition?   Perhaps it is both.  Regrettably, any failings Caleb has can and will be attributed at least in part to his mental illness.  Was Caleb a bad person without his imaginary friend?  I would say so.  But, the presence of Mason makes it so easy to characterize Caleb's actions as being the product of his mental illness first and independent moral failings second.  It might be the ultimate in Red Herrings, as well.

I admit I cannot separate my personal misgivings about Caleb's portrayal.  I might be asked to make the distinction between what actions were motivated by Caleb's arrogance and which were motivated by his mental illness, but even being asked to make that distinction, or even dwell on Caleb's personality in the face of his mental illness hits me in the feels.  The presence, and portrayal of Caleb's mental illness is a no win situation for me in terms of appropriate storytelling.  This is especially true because Caleb was not by any obvious indication "driven insane" by tremendous stress.  He came to power already mentally ill. 
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #32 on: 25 June 2015, 15:10:21 »
Caleb's paranoid schizophrenia was known from a young age; in fact, it's why he is a tanker instead of a MechWarrior. Now, whether the general public  or his generals knew that? Unknown but doubtful. It seems as if Harrison allowed his son's illness to go untreated as he quietly planned to cut him out of the succession.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #33 on: 25 June 2015, 15:14:35 »
Fair enough.  I was speaking about Caleb's tenure as First Prince.  Caleb seemed fairly deep into his delusions by that point.  If Harrison was aware his son was as ill as he was, which i'm not sure about, considering he didn't seem to know about Mason, then it was irresponsible for Harrison to let Caleb continue even in his diminished capacity within the AFFS, even in a time of peace, even with a replacement in mind.  But, Harrison's failures as a First Prince and father are better served in his own article.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #34 on: 25 June 2015, 15:24:19 »
Yeah, I doubt Harrison knew just how far Caleb's illness had progressed.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #35 on: 25 June 2015, 15:53:38 »
Even if you dont know the full extent, would you risk giving your mentally ill son full responsibility of billions of people? You could die at any point by something trivial as a car accident and you have no idea how much your sons mental stability will degrade over time.
So yeah, I still blame Harrison for Calebs reign.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #36 on: 25 June 2015, 16:04:42 »
close to rule 4 territory here, so lets watch it. but historically.. the french military is very capable and very brave. they just haven't always been as successful in their fights or given many chances to really show off.

I was aiming for humor --- During my time in the military, I spent some exchange time with French Special Forces (or  Brigade des Forces Spéciales Terre, BFST) -- and I found them just as capable as the British SAS, and the German Kommando Spezialkräfte --- and I did highly respect them.

However, back to the OP ---
As I noted earlier, Caleb, despite his "issues" really didn't do the damage to the FedSuns that people like to heap on him --- it was the decisions made by his Grandmother and Father that created the situation required for him to really do any damage. Without the actions, or lack thereof, of his 2 preceding ancestors, he would not have been able to do any of that damage.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #37 on: 25 June 2015, 17:52:37 »
The thing about feudal leadership, at least in fiction, is that it's as much if not more about consolidating power along family lines, the more direct the better, rather than competency. And it won't just be the ruling bloodline itself that's concerned with this, so will others as a matter of preserving their own or their own family power, out of tradition, loyalty, a whole bunch of reasons.

Competence is a consideration after this, which is probably why Harrison eventually chose Julian. Up until that point, well, it's a bit of guess work since we don't get Harrison's perspective, but it's entirely possible that he didn't know how bad Caleb was, that he would grow out of it or possibly even that it would be manageable. Considering father and son weren't close he wouldn't be in a great position to judge, and considering that he was still the father he might have had a bigger blind spot where Caleb was concerned than anyone thought.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #38 on: 26 June 2015, 06:02:28 »
I wonder what happened to FedSun's intelligence chief, the one they nicknamed Dr Strangelove.  As soon as Caleb took power, he went underground.  I thought they were part of the frame work for possible new Davion Civil War with Julian getting data on Caleb forces via Strangelove.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #39 on: 26 June 2015, 10:36:07 »
"Dr. Strange".

The implication in Fortress Republic is that he is working with, if not actually a part of, the Curaitis Organization.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #40 on: 26 June 2015, 11:07:17 »
"Dr. Strange".

The implication in Fortress Republic is that he is working with, if not actually a part of, the Curaitis Organization.
Ahh that right.  Sorry, i mis-remembered his name.  I forgot the Curatis Org was still going with Victor's grandson involved with them.  I wonder if the writers will re-introduce them again.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #41 on: 26 June 2015, 12:18:55 »
Dr. Strangelove would have been such a better name. ;D
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #42 on: 26 June 2015, 12:26:47 »
Harrison knew Caleb had problems, but if he had known how bad Caleb would never had been brought to Terra and Harrison would have made Julian heir earlier on New Avalon in front of everybody. Sadly, he was a loving father and cared for his son. And Caleb did love his father but lost it and then killed his father then panicked. I wonder if he hadn't would the state of the Federated Suns have been any different though? Harrison may have been just as bad of a leader in wartime as Caleb was. He had drunk the Stone Kool-Aid as well and had made very few preparations for war during his rule. About the only thing I don't think he would have done is the fiasco at Palmyria.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #43 on: 26 June 2015, 13:05:44 »
I think you've summed up Harrison quite well, he wouldn't have been any better than Caleb as a war leader but for very different reasons. At the very least though he would have provided more stability and continuity, thereby at least preventing the nation from panicking or collapsing as it seems to be on the verge of right now.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #44 on: 26 June 2015, 14:25:36 »
Can we say for certain that Harrison would have been a bad wartime leader? He may have made the political/emotional derp-worthy mistake of being too trusting of Stone's peace program, but that doesn't preclude him from being capable in battle.

Even if he'd merely been adequate, having a First Prince who trusted his subordinates and was willing to let them do their jobs would have gone a long way. Even if a Palmyra-type operation was still planned, it's doubtful that he would have demanded all the troops be concentrated in one system and actually on the planet surface before jump off, plus it's open to question whether the Ravens would have betrayed him.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #45 on: 26 June 2015, 15:33:40 »
[...] plus it's open to question whether the Ravens would have betrayed him.

I have my doubt they would have.
My feeling always was, that Sterling McKenna actually like Harrison and from what I gather, she betrayed Caleb, because she was certain he killed his father - without honor. Had he challenged Harrison to a duel and won, more power to him. But the way it played out? He was toast the moment McKenna realized what had happened.
That she pretty much wiped her behind with the FedSuns as a whole in the process? Why the hell should she care? She never had anything invested in the FedSuns and with a batshit crazy leader like Caleb at the helm? She was done with them.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #46 on: 26 June 2015, 20:32:32 »
Can we say for certain that Harrison would have been a bad wartime leader? He may have made the political/emotional derp-worthy mistake of being too trusting of Stone's peace program, but that doesn't preclude him from being capable in battle.

The disarmament programs are something of a Red Herring here, aren't they?  The Draconis Combine didn't launch their offensive until 3139, 4 years after Fortress Republic.  Plenty of time to understand that peace wasn't about to come from Terra.

Harrison's performance in the Victoria War was undermined by Amanda Hasek's actions in the early stages of the war.  He was trying to salvage the war at that point, and didn't perform terribly.

Quote
Even if he'd merely been adequate, having a First Prince who trusted his subordinates and was willing to let them do their jobs would have gone a long way. Even if a Palmyra-type operation was still planned, it's doubtful that he would have demanded all the troops be concentrated in one system and actually on the planet surface before jump off, plus it's open to question whether the Ravens would have betrayed him.

Pretty much.  But, the Capellan problem seems unavoidable.  The Capellans were itching to fight the Republic and were detoured by Fortress Republic.  Even if Harrison was in charge, being double teamed by a strategic genius and the largest military in the Inner Sphere would result in diminishing borders.  Maybe Harrison could have stopped the DCMS.  But, the CCAF too?
« Last Edit: 27 June 2015, 11:24:03 by False Son »
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #47 on: 26 June 2015, 22:21:08 »
My general feel is that Harrison would have been competent. The Capellan March would have played out much the same just because of Amanda Hasek's efforts, which based on the Victoria War were somewhere inbetween Harrison and Caleb's, not too much leeway but just enough intelligence to get things done properly. The Draconis March could have been very different, he's not the sort to pull a Palmyra style amassing of troops, but an alliance with the Ravens would have been a strong possibility and while I get the feeling he was being played to some degree by Khan McKenna I also feel that she had some actual respect for him as opposed to Caleb. Of course both Marches have been plagued with political issues that I would like to see elaborated on which would have inevitably come into play.

However one is either a good wartime leader or a good peacetime leader, there's no inbetween. Unless of course you count just plain bad a la Caleb, hence he becomes Prince right when you don't need him to.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #48 on: 27 June 2015, 18:23:46 »
However one is either a good wartime leader or a good peacetime leader, there's no inbetween.
Well that's categorically wrong. No point of breaking rule 4, but let's just say that there are plenty of leaders who proved capable of effectively transitioning from peace to war and vice versa. Even if it means a politician letting the generals do their thing, or a general laying down his arms and choosing to serve his people in another way.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #49 on: 28 June 2015, 02:31:08 »
Sorry, I meant in Battletech, should have been more specific. I say this because the easiest means of adding drama or tension for a character in a leadership position is to put them in a place of least comfort. This being a military setting overall it means that most drama comes from there being a war on, hence either wartime or peacetime leaders, and the interesting things that happen when each is in power of various nations.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #50 on: 28 June 2015, 12:04:04 »
Sorry, I meant in Battletech, should have been more specific. I say this because the easiest means of adding drama or tension for a character in a leadership position is to put them in a place of least comfort. This being a military setting overall it means that most drama comes from there being a war on, hence either wartime or peacetime leaders, and the interesting things that happen when each is in power of various nations.
That's almost impossible for BT considering the BTU is almost always at war. It's really a question of which leaders want some kind of peace and what leaders seem to only want to win the war (I saying the war because the GHs seem to keep fighting the same conflicts indefinitely)   
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #51 on: 06 July 2015, 11:55:35 »
If there is one thing this article has told me it's to pretty much never, ever, ever, buy anything that features Caleb Davion.  Maybe in 1985 there was an excuse to be abelist about the mentally ill, but that doesn't fly with me today.  Caleb is a kind of caricature of the mentally ill, and as a designated villain reinforces a negative impression of all people with mental illness.  It's 2015, and that kind of thing really shouldn't fly anymore.  There are already so many people in Battletech who fill the 'crazy bad guy' role, do we really need another?  I'd gladly support a retcon of this guy's character, because it's just so ham-fisted and out of touch.

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around all of the implications of Caleb being a paranoid schizophrenic. I'm a student in a mental health field, but I can't say that we have spent a lot of time on schizophrenia yet, nor do I know anyone who suffers from the disorder, at least not that I am aware of.

On one hand, you are very correct. Having yet another example of someone with a mental disorder being portrayed as effectively evil does not help anyone. I could even argue that some of his poor decisions and the way he reacted to things aren't necessarily a result of his schizophrenia.

On the other, it makes it really "easy" to explain away Caleb being a bad leader. It has really made me think, however, about whether disorders are "bad" or not. One of the things that makes a disorder a disorder is that it negatively affects someone's way of life or their relationships with others. Whether Caleb realizes it or not, his relationships are certainly affected (such as, oh, the one with his father.) Which I think is the crux of why I wouldn't want him as leader. The fact that he does not always realize the consequences of his actions is clearly not something that only happens with people with mental disorders, unless you consider everyone who rapes to have a mental disorder (which you could probably convince me of.) Therefore, having paranoid schizophrenia only increases the chances of him making poor decisions rather than ensuring it, and a leader should make the most good decisions (not necessarily right ones) as possible. Or, rather, that is my opinion of it. Which is undoubtedly biased by media such as this. I firmly believe that at least some disorders are a result of a natural response to an unnatural stimulus. By this I mean that what would have helped us out when fighting or running away from a tiger isn't as effective when that tiger is now an angry boss and you can't run or fight them. Whether that is also the case with ps I honestly don't know.

I do however think that there should be more positive portrayals of people with mental disorders in the BT universe. What that looks like I don't know. But probably just someone who has the disorder and still functions/doesn't rape/doesn't accidentally kill their dad.

As a last aside, I found reading Caleb's parts much more enjoyable than Julian's. Julian is certainly a more "classic" Davion (aka authors wanting us to think he's perfect in every way, and the ways that he isn't either make him more perfect or he gets over) and, frankly, boring to me. If you like Julian more, all power to you. But I enjoyed (mostly) Caleb's story a lot more, and found it a lot more interesting to figure out how he was going to inevitably fail than see how Julian was going to inevitably succeed.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #52 on: 06 July 2015, 12:13:07 »
I do however think that there should be more positive portrayals of people with mental disorders in the BT universe.

Simon Borge-Steiner was wise enough to recognize his own good intentions while separating his ego.  He elected to have his sister take up the Archonship rather than endanger the realm he loved.  I'm not saying every mentally ill leader follow his example, but it is one of the few positive examples I can think of.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #53 on: 06 July 2015, 12:27:03 »
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around all of the implications of Caleb being a paranoid schizophrenic.
The writers never made it clear what Celeb was suffering from, paranoid schizophrenia is only the best guess. Celeb could have very well been sniffing bath salts off camera.

Edit: corrected by Roosterboy
« Last Edit: 06 July 2015, 12:41:44 by SteelRaven »
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #54 on: 06 July 2015, 12:30:25 »
The writers never made it clear what Celeb was suffering from, paranoid schizophrenia is only the best guess. Celeb could have very well been sniffing bath salts off camera.

Quote from: Fortress Republic, p303
“Because he is insane. By the most clinical definition. Paranoid schizophrenia, Julian. And it has started to get worse. That bottom wafer contains all the evidence Prince Harrison planned to hand you himself, eventually. All of Caleb's records, from the time he was diagnosed.”

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #55 on: 06 July 2015, 12:44:00 »
I'm pretty sure it's been spelled out in fiction (by Harrison moments before his death I think) that Caleb has actual, physical brain damage or abnormalities that cause his mental issues (spelled out as paranoid schizophrenia as roosterboy has just shown) and his inability to pilot a BattleMech.

And while it is an easy excuse for his bad decisions it's hard to say it's solely responsible. It caused the above BattleMech difficulties, in turn causing a poor father/son relationship, and it may have caused his micromanaging tendencies due to paranoia, but when you take that away there are still some bad decisions that anyone could have made as a part of being a bad leader.

Palmyra for example could have been made out of pure ego, Harrison's death while spur of the moment was emotionally charged and could have been just a plain stupid move by anyone lacking maturity and forethought.

That being said 'mental illness' is something of a big, attention grabbing boogyman to most people and that's what everyone's going to think of when they read about Caleb Davion.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #56 on: 06 July 2015, 12:45:01 »
Sorry, I never finished Fortress of Republic and always thought Celeb was undiagnosed all this time. Thank you for the correction. 
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #57 on: 06 July 2015, 12:48:19 »
Well, the "in-character" nature of most BTU sources is to be taken with grains of salt.

Depending on which official source you use, Takashi Kurita either comitted seppuku or died peacefully in his sleep.  Alaric either murdered Seth Ward or valiantly tried to defend him from assassins.

Just because someone said Caleb was a paranoid schizophenic in an official source doesn't mean that person was actually right.  I'm not saying he wasn't right.. I'm just saying that just because it was said it's not the end of the discussion.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #58 on: 06 July 2015, 12:52:12 »
I do however think that there should be more positive portrayals of people with mental disorders in the BT universe. What that looks like I don't know. But probably just someone who has the disorder and still functions/doesn't rape/doesn't accidentally kill their dad.

It might be controversial if you aren't a Liao fan, but Sun Tzu Liao is widely regarded as one of the best leaders of the realm despite mental instability and tremendous stress.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #59 on: 06 July 2015, 15:20:29 »
Well, the "in-character" nature of most BTU sources is to be taken with grains of salt.

No, not really.

Are there some things that are a little off because of their particular in-universe POV? Sure, and you list a couple below. But for the most part there's not a lot of that in the sources. And the novels, presenting as they do a third-person omniscient perspective on the universe, have even less. Characters can be mistaken or lie, but other info is usually reliable (barring author errors and the like).

(I also notice that people who tend to make this argument—not you, necessarily, just in general—are rather selective about what information they choose to take with a grain of salt.)

Quote
Depending on which official source you use, Takashi Kurita either comitted seppuku or died peacefully in his sleep.  Alaric either murdered Seth Ward or valiantly tried to defend him from assassins.

Just because someone said Caleb was a paranoid schizophenic in an official source doesn't mean that person was actually right.  I'm not saying he wasn't right.. I'm just saying that just because it was said it's not the end of the discussion.

There's a difference between the two examples you give and the Caleb situation. In the latter, it's not a question of an in-universe POV slanting things one way or another; it's one character stating what is in another character's medical records.

Does that mean it's 100% for certain that Caleb has paranoid schizophrenia? Well, no, I suppose doctors can make mistakes and maybe that diagnosis is wrong. But that's a far cry from saying it needs to be taken with a grain of salt because sources can be biased by their in-universe point of view.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #60 on: 06 July 2015, 16:42:27 »
Federated Suns are going to hate this but I hope Calebs successor/replacement Julian is the leader that should be able to correct Calebs military mistakes but can't

I really hope that ilClan does what others haven't and truly changes the map the fall of the Federated Suns by Calebs incompetency and madness the Lyrans destruction by the Wolves I want to see it go further the combine capellans and reborn league all being crushed by ilClan

honestly I think Calab could have been an indicator of where things are going between him and Melissa Steiner II two of the Succession States known for years are crippled Liao is going from strength to strength but seriously how far can that go?  The FWL is a mess while the Combine is the Combine its barely moved other than to slaughter a people it never really wanted

If Stoner was the Good, Caleb is the bad you have to wonder who will be the ugly?  Could Alaric be ilKhan leader of a crushed Inner Sphere under the boot of the ilCan could be a lot of fun for future and it all started with an imaginary friend
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #61 on: 06 July 2015, 22:10:30 »
I really hope that ilClan does what others haven't and truly changes the map

Have you actually looked at the Inner Sphere map lately? ???
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #62 on: 06 July 2015, 22:46:22 »
Have you actually looked at the Inner Sphere map lately? ???

Yup it's a good start just the Combine and Liao to get smashed up a bit and the Republic to get speared in the side

For me ilClan would be awesome if each capital fell to the ilClan leaving a remnant succession state to struggle by

then either

over the next twenty timeline years you see the states try to come back at the ilClan and regain territory

 or

time jump to 3100 the succession States are gone the names of their rulers including crap ones like Caleb are long forgotten and banned from being mentioned.  The ilClan is fat and bloated with its subservient clans resting on their laurels.  Quietly in the shadows the five families are still living leading a resistance

Flashpoint - civil war in the ilClan territories kicks off the Succession States being to reassert themselves while the ilClan fights their threat while in the periphery the Home Clans have returned

I think it would truly turn it on its head having not a single state no real borders at least to start with plenty of room for heroes and villains
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #63 on: 06 July 2015, 23:11:17 »
time jump to 3100

That was 50 years ago, at this point.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #64 on: 06 July 2015, 23:12:30 »
For me ilClan would be awesome if each capital fell to the ilClan leaving a remnant succession state to struggle by

Yeah, see, that's not even remotely plausible.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #65 on: 06 July 2015, 23:33:38 »
That was 50 years ago, at this point.

Lol yes ok 3200 or the fabled 3250
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #66 on: 06 July 2015, 23:48:52 »
Yeah, see, that's not even remotely plausible.

There's also the age old problem with wishes: you might actually get what you asked for.

What if you get an ilClan, but the ilKhan is Julian Davion and the ilClan is his coalition?  "But they're not Clan" isn't an excuse that flies; if someone is able to browbeat the entire rest of the BTU universe, then they're necessarily able to tell the surviving Clans what exhaust to suck AND how much to like it while they suck it.

At any rate, it's all pretty tangential to a discussion about Caleb.   But, he would have made an awesome ilKhan.  What if he HAD survived? That's a very interesting chain of thought...  MANDRAGORA had an amazing amount of firepower lined up.  Had the Space Goth simply not assisted him instead of betraying him that much force for his planned counter-invasion easily could have succeeded in turning the DCMS invasion back.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #67 on: 07 July 2015, 00:11:11 »
Now that's a thought Caleb as an ilKhan be as mad as having a Jaguar with a spent military as one...
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #68 on: 07 July 2015, 10:02:13 »
What if he HAD survived? That's a very interesting chain of thought...  MANDRAGORA had an amazing amount of firepower lined up.  Had the Space Goth simply not assisted him instead of betraying him that much force for his planned counter-invasion easily could have succeeded in turning the DCMS invasion back.

I have to wonder what Caleb did to piss the Ravens off. Mckenna seemed to not care that Harrison was gone, so maybe she just thought she would get more out of helping the DC? I don't think it was necessarily a bad move, but I would imagine that the FS won't take kindly, no matter who is in charge.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #69 on: 07 July 2015, 12:39:08 »
The impression I get is that Sterling McKenna was playing both Harrison and then Caleb for her own ends. While she might have had some small regard for the father, who was at least an honourable man, she probably saw the son as lesser in some way. Not hard considering his general behaviour.

This means that while she saw some benefit to working with or aiding the Suns while Harrison was in charge the political calculus Caleb introduced made betrayal smarter. Once Caleb was in charge there was always going to be a point where she turned on him because he simply wasn't worth the trouble.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #70 on: 08 July 2015, 10:00:59 »
It might be controversial if you aren't a Liao fan, but Sun Tzu Liao is widely regarded as one of the best leaders of the realm despite mental instability and tremendous stress.

Simon Borge-Steiner was wise enough to recognize his own good intentions while separating his ego.  He elected to have his sister take up the Archonship rather than endanger the realm he loved.  I'm not saying every mentally ill leader follow his example, but it is one of the few positive examples I can think of.

I can't say I'm a fan of Sun Tzu per se, but he does seem like a good example, or at least the close to it who plays a major role. Although I'm not sure what disorder he would have (maybe PTSD?).

And I wasn't familiar with Simon Borge-Steiner, but he definitely sounds like a good example.

Part of the problem is that, in a universe that is effectively constantly in war, being highly emotional probably wouldn't be seen as a positive trait. So having depression and maybe not being able to make a "rational" or quick decision would seem to be incongruent with being a good leader. This doesn't mean that that is 100% true (Abraham Lincoln probably suffered from depression, and Winston Churchill probably had Bipolar Disorder.) I don't know if there 100% needs to be a leader or main character with a disorder portrayed positively, but it'd be nice with more diversity. Maybe the next Caleb IS a good leader, despite their imaginary friend or their borderline personality disorder.

Isn't Brett Andrews portrayed as being possibly schizphrenic as well?
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #71 on: 08 July 2015, 23:06:33 »
I think something we've unintentionally danced around here, and in the Sun-Tzu and Daoshen articles, is that some of the crazy, or certain types of crazy, are genetic, inherited, and some are situational.

Sun-Tzu considered himself at least a little more paranoid than normal, but given the environment he was raised in (where is mother almost had him executed until Tsen Shang managed to convince her otherwise), that's not necessarily a flaw. Did he have others? Hard to say.

Daoshen could be considered an inherited form of insanity given Romano and his close association with Kali. I add the latter because inherited isn't simply a matter of genetic inheritance. Kali actively encouraged his delusions of godhood, which may have simply exacerbated or caused an existing condition.

Caleb is biological, the brain thing, and it's the cause of a lot of issues.

Finally, environment plays a large role on all the major characters considering they're constantly in high stress situations, both battlefield and political. They're being shot at, nearly blown up, targets of assassination for little more than their surname, no one stays 'normal' and stable under those conditions.

So being crazy to some degree is not an indicator for incompetence or capacity in and of itself. It is commonly used as a characterisation tool in fiction, and usually towards the negative. However that just means if a 'heroic' character has insanity traits they get downplayed or overshadowed by the 'good' they do.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #72 on: 09 July 2015, 09:49:31 »
I think something we've unintentionally danced around here, and in the Sun-Tzu and Daoshen articles, is that some of the crazy, or certain types of crazy, are genetic, inherited, and some are situational.

Sun-Tzu considered himself at least a little more paranoid than normal, but given the environment he was raised in (where is mother almost had him executed until Tsen Shang managed to convince her otherwise), that's not necessarily a flaw. Did he have others? Hard to say.

Daoshen could be considered an inherited form of insanity given Romano and his close association with Kali. I add the latter because inherited isn't simply a matter of genetic inheritance. Kali actively encouraged his delusions of godhood, which may have simply exacerbated or caused an existing condition.

Caleb is biological, the brain thing, and it's the cause of a lot of issues.

Finally, environment plays a large role on all the major characters considering they're constantly in high stress situations, both battlefield and political. They're being shot at, nearly blown up, targets of assassination for little more than their surname, no one stays 'normal' and stable under those conditions.

So being crazy to some degree is not an indicator for incompetence or capacity in and of itself. It is commonly used as a characterisation tool in fiction, and usually towards the negative. However that just means if a 'heroic' character has insanity traits they get downplayed or overshadowed by the 'good' they do.

This. Someone could be depressed or schizophrenic or a myriad of other disorders and it could be possible for them to live a very long and happy life. Whether that's possible in a war zone or not is another question though. Sun Tzu being paranoid might not work if he weren't in a high stress job or worked in an office or something. But growing up on Liao? That's an advantage there.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #73 on: 17 July 2015, 15:35:19 »
Frankly, I wish Caleb had lived and kicked ass.

It would be much more interesting for the "good guy" faction to have a bad guy in charge and let them be uneasy with him but unwilling to mess with success. Plus I love that he was a tanker.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #74 on: 17 July 2015, 17:00:30 »
From a larger perspective this is, unacknowledged by the wider FedSuns public, basically what Hanse was. He was just more charming and charismatic than most.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #75 on: 17 July 2015, 18:26:09 »
From a larger perspective this is, unacknowledged by the wider FedSuns public, basically what Hanse was. He was just more charming and charismatic than most.

When did Hanse rape anyone? Or have an imaginary friend?

(I'm not a 3025 grog, I know very little about Hanse)

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #76 on: 17 July 2015, 19:36:25 »
He didn't rape anyone, but he did trigger a massive sphere wide war entirely out of spite.

The fundamental difference between Hanse and Caleb was that Hanse was a Conqueror and Caleb was a petulant child with schizophrenia. Hanse was lighyears ahead of Caleb in competence, and he didn't indulge in personal cruelty (aside from arranging the infiltration of the Capellan intelligence service over the course of years purely to twist the knife in Max's gut). But neither of them were shining beacons of goodness.

If anything, one might borrow a line from the Halfman to describe Hanse. "The right kind of Terrible. The kind that prevents your people from being even more so."
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #77 on: 17 July 2015, 21:14:25 »

If anything, one might borrow a line from the Halfman to describe Hanse. "The right kind of Terrible. The kind that prevents your people from being even more so."

Basically this. No, Hanse didn't rape anyone or come anywhere near Caleb's level of villainy, but all things are relative. He really wasn't a nice person and for all the heroic attributes he has Hanse really is more of a competent, successful tyrant rather than a heroic conqueror.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying he's outright evil like some characters, but relative to the supposed FedSuns morality alignment he's the closest thing that's come along to a bad guy in charge for the better for that faction.

Arguably you get the same in Sun Tzu, Vlad Ward, most Kuritas and even Nicholas Kerensky.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #78 on: 18 July 2015, 05:29:21 »
He didn't rape anyone, but he did trigger a massive sphere wide war entirely out of spite.
Hardly. That letter to Max was just to mess with his head, which it did.

You could say that it was a coin toss between the Combine and the Confederation, but the CapCon was always the obvious target. The Steiners and Dragoons could distract the combine while the Suns went after the CapCon, but if it was reverse Hanse had to devote a large part of his military to distract the CapCon, leaving most of the heavy lifting of fighting the Combine to the Lyrans, whose military was in no shape to do; the combine front in the 4SW went about as good as it could hope for. The CapCon was rotten from the inside, it's intelligence apparatus controlled by Davion agents, their military commander was easily turned, and even a couple of members of the ruling family dangling from the tree; Max's CapCon was a low hanging fruit just waiting to be picked, while the Combine was a quagmire waiting to happen.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #79 on: 18 July 2015, 16:29:21 »
Question: How was Caleb made the Heir and later First Prince? There should be some sort of law about persons in those positions being not pants on head crazy

solmanian

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #80 on: 18 July 2015, 16:44:07 »
Question: How was Caleb made the Heir and later First Prince? There should be some sort of law about persons in those positions being not pants on head crazy
I wouldn't doubt if even now the majority of people in the Suns have any idea, or if they'll ever find out. At most he will be remembered as a fool, and even that's doubtful. As far as the public know he was a decent prince until he was ambushed/betrayed on Palmyra, on his to kick some Drac ass, and he would've gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling Ravens.
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Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #81 on: 18 July 2015, 18:11:54 »
Question: How was Caleb made the Heir and later First Prince? There should be some sort of law about persons in those positions being not pants on head crazy
That what sucks about monarchies.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #82 on: 18 July 2015, 18:30:50 »
1. He met all the legal requirements (ie military service and having the right surname)
2. Following on from that he met the legal requirement of being the most directly related person to the last First Prince
3. He said "gimme!"
4. No one stopped him.

Those last two are probably the most definitive since the former can be wormed around if you're motivated enough.

SCC

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #83 on: 18 July 2015, 20:04:58 »
That what sucks about monarchies.
Actually it's quite possible there are laws/rules regarding sanity of a First Prince, in fact that probably makes for a good role-playing hook, finding out who forged the paperwork that made him heir, after all the FedSuns are the most successful Great House, so there's something normally blocking all the crazy from ending up on the throne

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #84 on: 18 July 2015, 20:24:25 »
Actually it's quite possible there are laws/rules regarding sanity of a First Prince, in fact that probably makes for a good role-playing hook, finding out who forged the paperwork that made him heir, after all the FedSuns are the most successful Great House, so there's something normally blocking all the crazy from ending up on the throne
Well, we didn't see this which only proves House Davion is just as flawed as any other Great House. If anything, their success lead to complacency and a false sense of security.
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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #85 on: 18 July 2015, 21:41:59 »
Actually it's quite possible there are laws/rules regarding sanity of a First Prince, in fact that probably makes for a good role-playing hook, finding out who forged the paperwork that made him heir, after all the FedSuns are the most successful Great House, so there's something normally blocking all the crazy from ending up on the throne

No forgery necessary. By FedSuns law, in the absence of a designated heir (the Heir Apparent, which Harrison hadn't yet gotten around to naming Julian as), the Heir Presumptive is automatically the oldest living child of the sitting First Prince. For the throne to skip Caleb, Harrison would have to explicitly designate a different heir and explicitly exclude Caleb from the succession. Neither of those had yet been done, so Caleb was the default heir. (see HBHD, p105) And since Caleb's illness was known to only a few people, there was no reason for anyone to object when he took the throne.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #86 on: 18 July 2015, 22:25:07 »
And once Caleb took the throne, those medical personnel who did know about his problems would probably consider it most unwise to say anything. It's can be a very bad idea for your own health to say that the dangerously crazy guy sitting on the throne is dangerously crazy.

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Re: Character Study of the Week: Caleb Davion
« Reply #87 on: 19 July 2015, 13:24:24 »
And once Caleb took the throne, those medical personnel who did know about his problems would probably consider it most unwise to say anything. It's can be a very bad idea for your own health to say that the dangerously crazy guy sitting on the throne is dangerously crazy.
Also, practically treasonous in the middle of a war, is it would devastate moral, though probably less than Palmyra...
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

 

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