Author Topic: UCT Combat Vehicles  (Read 2696 times)

AlphaMirage

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #30 on: 24 September 2023, 08:44:30 »
Arrow 4 is not classified as a missile weapon but as artillery and thus outside an AMS' scope (except in space where it is explicitly stated in the PD entry).

Mech Mortars though are explicitly immune to AMS yet classified as missile weapons.

Daryk

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #31 on: 24 September 2023, 09:17:00 »
Hmm... sounds like a question for the rules forum...

Retry

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #32 on: 24 September 2023, 09:45:45 »
No he's got it right, AMS does nothing to ground-based arrows.  That it's interceptible in space but when put in an atmosphere AMS all of the sudden forgets how to work is just one of those weird unintuitive things that exists in the BT universe.

Daryk

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #33 on: 24 September 2023, 10:06:36 »
I've asked in the TacOps forum to verify that.

AlphaMirage

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #34 on: 24 September 2023, 10:19:05 »
While that's being settled I have a question for the OP. What did you intend the artillery to do? Take out bunkers or Battlemechs?

20 points of concentrated point damage from an Arrow 4 is good for Battlemechs but if its rubbling hard points or dealing with troop concentrations then gun artillery would be optimal. The Copperhead thumper only does a quarter the damage of a homing A4 but it you just need AOE, ammo is key.

Daryk

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #35 on: 24 September 2023, 12:26:14 »
Xotl came back and said the BMM gives it an explicit exception on page 97.  I've asked if that BMM language overrides StratOps, since it's more recent.

maxcarrion

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #36 on: 25 September 2023, 03:47:55 »
While that's being settled I have a question for the OP. What did you intend the artillery to do? Take out bunkers or Battlemechs?

20 points of concentrated point damage from an Arrow 4 is good for Battlemechs but if its rubbling hard points or dealing with troop concentrations then gun artillery would be optimal. The Copperhead thumper only does a quarter the damage of a homing A4 but it you just need AOE, ammo is key.

I agree.  My assumption for fire mission priority expectation, in order, would probably be

1 - Guided fire on target - the ability for any of the infantry suits to call in homing artillery (and LRM) rounds was my foremost assumption, being a solid replacement for long range firepower on the BA suits.  This would also minimize collateral damage in still populated urban areas compared to spotted or plotted HE fire.  The A4 has the clear advantage on this hitting 4 times as hard on direct hit.

2 - Anti Air umbrella - flak and ADA fire significantly threatens air assets.  Both artillery pieces have capability here, I'd give the A4 the edge due to the ADA and threshold ability but the efficiency of Thumper flak would cover the role sufficiently.

3 - Special munitions deployment - especially smoke to cut long fire lanes allowing short range BA to cross/close.  Thumper has the edge here.  Thunder munitions inside an urban area is almost certainly a war crime but sometimes you've got to do it anyway.

4 - Counter Battery Fire - eliminate opposition artillery - advantage Thumper for range and ammo efficiency

5 - Spotted fire - HE rounds to flatten enemy strong holds.  I'd expect to use this a lot less as civilian casualties could grow unacceptably quickly but still an option that may see usage. slight advantage Thumper for efficiency but speed of demolition goes to A4.

6 - Plotted fire - HE rounds to deny areas - Occassionally useful if, for example, reinforcements need to approach via a specific road.  Big advantage Thumper for efficient ammo usage but with only 1 or 2 artillery pieces this would be a very limited option.

Overall for the UTC I'm still leaning towards the Arrow for the precision power of the homing round over the copperhead.  I have however developed a new appreciation for the Thumper for more barrage fire.

AlphaMirage

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #37 on: 25 September 2023, 06:05:45 »
I don't know if you need to worry about Anti-Air or Counter-Battery with the UCT. You have abundant cover and concealment from both threat types and if you are overrun you must withdraw. The unit isn't large or tough enough to threaten an enemy with numerous air or artillery assets, that's a Heavy Mechanized Regiment's job. UCT as I interpreted them are transportable, scalable Urban Assault Units meant to take and hold terrain that would be difficult for other assets to capture without causing serious damage to civilian targets.

The best smoke munitions are SRMs followed by other missiles so you can use your tanks to deploy a tactical smoke screen or just use concrete canyons to move parallel. Long sight lines and assaulting hardpoints are the Mechs and Tank's job not the infantry. Thunder or mines in general are a good way to enclose your perimeter and prevent or at least discourage breakouts. That said it seems like something other units should do in support of the UCT.

My thoughts are you don't need to worry about plotted fire ether since you are on the offensive. Plotted really favors a defensive stance and if you can sit there pounding on a known target that is a siege and needs to be supplied as such (thus ammo per ton is less relevant).

maxcarrion

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #38 on: 25 September 2023, 10:58:41 »
@AlphaMirage

Mostly I agree, I think the primary role of homing rounds on target is by far the most important part which is why I am leaning to A4 over Thumper.  However I think the capability to fire flak is very handy for deterring ASF/Conventional Air/VTOLs etc.  which BA are typically bad at dealing with and an A4 launcher is probably the best anti air in the combat team so when/if the OPFOR responds with air assets an A4 plus some fire from the other vees should help to discourage a second run/bring down an air mobile counter attack before it deploys.

If, for example, I were bringing an A4 launcher with 4T of ammo I would assume my load out would be something like 10x Homing as primary weapon mode, 5x HE for Flak, Spotted or Counter Battery where the opportunity presents and the final Ton would be mission selected; ADA if air response is expected, Thunder if we're expecting a rapid ground counter offensive, more HE if we're expecting to be levelling strong points.  etc.

Counter Battery may be rare for urban combat but with heavy PBI oppositions the possibility of a field artillery or two is not unreasonable and counter battery might be the first opportunity to silence the guns.  Like AAA it isn't the primary mission but it is a useful capability that the addition of an artillery piece provides us with automatically as long as we pack "some" HE rounds.  So we can take the shots when they do occur.

I agree, plotted fire is more a mission we could do because we have the artillery than a reason to bring it in the first place.

Charistoph

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #39 on: 25 September 2023, 15:28:01 »
Do you call artillery on your own guys?

I didn't say that.  I'm talking about TAGging the enemy Mech that just dismounted their Battle Armor.

Still, if you have BA or ConvInf in that Hex, too, there is the possibility.

Be out of the hex before the off-board artillery phase, you know its coming, you know its targeted (since TAGing occurs in the movement phase). The Arrow IV does 20 points of focused damage and 5 points in the same hex. A Copperhead Thumper does 5 and 5 as well (since it uses the same rules as a homing Arrow IV).

Impossible.  Homing rounds only hit TAGged targets on the turn they arrive.  TAGging happens between Movement and Weapon Attack Phase.  Good luck getting out of that before it hits.
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truetanker

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #40 on: 25 September 2023, 15:37:48 »
The biggest whammy is the TAG'd hex, the sore looser is missing that target. SO TRY to hit the target, especially if it's two hexes away!

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AlphaMirage

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #41 on: 25 September 2023, 15:57:04 »
@Charistoph

How many enemy omnimechs do you fight in a city that haven't already dismounted their Mechanized Infantry? I'm very curious because I've never encountered that situation. Omni-mechs are expensive target practice in a city, they need those Mechanized Troops to handle PBI armed with infernos and the like.
 
You fire the artillery. You know when it is going to show up. So you don't set up a leg attack or swarm on a target (the only reasons to be in the same hex) you want to TAG when it arrives. The fact is that it arrives after the movement phase so your troops can easily get out before it impacts, or you shift your TAG attempts to an alternate target (or let it go).

@maxcarrion

All good points, I've just written almost fifty pages on conventional assets (Point Barrow's Guide, link in sig below) in Battletech and wanted to share my thoughts.

Charistoph

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #42 on: 25 September 2023, 17:02:39 »
How many enemy omnimechs do you fight in a city that haven't already dismounted their Mechanized Infantry? I'm very curious because I've never encountered that situation. Omni-mechs are expensive target practice in a city, they need those Mechanized Troops to handle PBI armed with infernos and the like.

Rarely, because we don't often use city maps.  But that doesn't mean BA isn't being used on field maps.

You fire the artillery. You know when it is going to show up. So you don't set up a leg attack or swarm on a target (the only reasons to be in the same hex) you want to TAG when it arrives. The fact is that it arrives after the movement phase so your troops can easily get out before it impacts, or you shift your TAG attempts to an alternate target (or let it go).

Sometimes you have to take the risk.  20 Damage on a Target for 20-30 on your BA, where that 20 could be crippling.

Then of course, there's also the possibility that the target is on a Building you're supposed to be protecting, too, but killing it is more important than saving the Building.

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Daryk

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #43 on: 25 September 2023, 18:28:59 »
Smoke ammo SRMs win with short sight lines, but LRM-5s are more flexible (at least until they finally give us SRM-1s on 'mechs and combat vehicles).  I think I may need to head to the general Fan Rules forum... ;)

AlphaMirage

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Re: UCT Combat Vehicles
« Reply #44 on: 25 September 2023, 20:51:01 »
For my own amusement and Max's assistance, here is a chart for smoke generation. Most efficient (weight and ammo use wise) are MML3 and SRM4 loaded with smoke. Optimally you'd use that heavy smoke with a 5+ vehicle to impose a +4 to hit against your opponent while only suffering +2 on your side.

Code: [Select]
Weapon Type Mass Ammo Smoke Generated (2 Levels High) Persistence
VGL (Smoke) 0.5 1 Three Adjacent Light 3
All Artillery 12-30 8-20 Radius 1 Heavy 3
LRM5 2 24 Target Light 2
LRM10 5 12 Radius 1 Heavy 5
LRM15 7 8 Radius 1 Heavy 7
LRM20 10 6 Radius 2 Heavy 10
MM1 2 24 Target Heavy 2
MM2 5 12 Target Heavy 4
MM4 7 6 Target Heavy 8
MM8 10 4 Target Heavy 16
SRM2 1 50 Target Light 2
SRM4 2 25 Radius 1 Heavy 4
SRM6 3 15 Radius 1 Heavy 6
MML3 (SRM) 1.5 33 Radius 1 Heavy 3
MML3 (LRM) 1.5 40 Target Light 1
MML5 (SRM) 3 20 Radius 1 Heavy 5
MML5 (LRM) 3 25 Target Light 2
MML7 (SRM) 4.5 14 Radius 1 Heavy 7
MML7 (LRM) 4.5 17 Radius 1 Heavy 3
MML9 (SRM) 6 11 Radius 1 Heavy 9
MML9 (LRM) 6 13 Radius 1 Heavy 4

 

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