Author Topic: Clan Large Pulse Lasers  (Read 3381 times)

OatsAndHall

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Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« on: 27 March 2024, 12:26:54 »
One of my gaming groups plays a lot of 3150-era matches. As such, I tend to field at least one unit with a CLPL as a)it's accurate and b) it's range is great. I don't spam them, by any means, but I enjoy the flexibility the weapon gives me when building a force. A few of our players have been getting testy when they get chewed up by these CLPL and have suggested limiting them. My counter-point has always been that they have the ability to field them as well. There's nothing stopping them from literally only fielding units with these weapons (which I don't).

Thoughts?

Charistoph

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #1 on: 27 March 2024, 12:42:02 »
Sounds like sour grapes.  One of the easiest counters to CLPL is Reflective Armor, followed by Hardened and Ferro-Lamellar Armor.  That or just some form of artillery.

Am I remembering wrong that this is the same group that gets upset about anything they haven't tried being introduced?
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #2 on: 27 March 2024, 12:46:26 »
Sounds like sour grapes.  One of the easiest counters to CLPL is Reflective Armor, followed by Hardened and Ferro-Lamellar Armor.  That or just some form of artillery.

Am I remembering wrong that this is the same group that gets upset about anything they haven't tried being introduced?

Agreed, I'd also consider Smoke a good hard counter or fast hovercraft with Infernos. Can't snipe what you can't see, but I can indirect fire toward you.

Now if you are playing Zell then you should get little honor for using those weapons as they require little risk to the user. Real Warriors close with and destroy their enemy.

Empyrus

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #3 on: 27 March 2024, 13:02:33 »
Well the weapon is essentially undercosted in BV (baked in to-hit modifiers in general are aren't valued quite right, MRMs and heavy lasers are overcosted for their to hit penalty) and as such units with them are also on cheap side for their effectiveness. So it is easy to see dislike for them.

"You can field them too" is not really a good counter-argument though. That requires wanting to field units that use the weapon, in other words mixed tech or Clan units. For some factions that may not even be an option (if one does follow faction restrictions).

Counterplay for cLPLs is tricky.
Reflective armor units are expensive (perhaps even overtly so, again a minor problem with BV2.0) and not that common. And requires selecting these units.
One could utilize sheer mass of heavily armored units that are on the slower side (so the cLPL's bonus accuracy is effectively negated), but again this requires tailoring ones forces, rather than playing what one may regard fun.

A group having fun is certainly something to consider, because if it won't stay fun soon there might not even be a group.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to field the weapon either though. But if other players regard playing against you not fun, it may be you do utilize just too many cLPLs. Or perhaps there's something else that just makes it appear the cLPL is the problem rather, eg suppose you're clearly more skilled player but others appear to perceive it as being the result of the cLPL, or your general forces are just simply better constructed.

Going back to the first point, if you are playing BV balanced games, you could play with slight handicap against others without cLPLs. Suppose 10 000 BV game, you build your force only to 9500 BV (or they get X-amount of extra BV if they don't use cLPLs). Small difference might make the game feel more even.
Granted it may be difficult to find a point where this has benefit for them, doesn't actually constrain you too much, and things actually end being even. Or more importantly, fun, at least i think a loss can be fun if the game was enjoyable otherwise.

If overall force building is the problem, it might be a good idea to work with them to improve those forces in a way they still find their forces fun to play. There are units that are better than their BV implies and units that are arguably worse than their BV, and some units just don't have synergy together, and whatever else pitfalls force building may have.
But if there are no problems on this, not sure what else to suggest.

EDIT Judging by other replies there is more to this? Note i wrote my post entirely without any larger context, no knowledge about you, your group, whatever issues you may have had before.
« Last Edit: 27 March 2024, 13:04:59 by Empyrus »

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #4 on: 27 March 2024, 13:07:14 »
Well, although you cannot deny that it is the most broken weapon, and any countermeasure could be effective on the other weapons too. Although it have high BV but it is not THAT higher than its performance either. I'd rather pick a Clans LPL over Clans ER PPC, for example, for Clans LPL seems to be far superior weapon - although it has lower damage output but has longer effective range than Clans ER PPC. Yes, I said that LPL has longer effective range than ER PPC, and you read it correctly, for you can rarely hit the target on the long range bracket but thanks to -2 to hit modifier LPL can aims the targets in long range as if that is on the medium range.

Anyway, unless you have a good houserule to make it not broken as it does for now, you know that the local meta does matters on your local community. But limiting the numbers of total guns would be not that good, since it could lead them to fill with at least that much numbers of LPLs. Else maybe your community could make the houserule for that. I'd suggest to not touch its performance directly, though, but what about adjust its BV instead?

Also remember that houserule is should be discussed on the fan rules section. So I don't want to talk much for the houserule. But anyway, if you want to make a houserule for that weapon then I can't help it, seriously.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #5 on: 27 March 2024, 13:11:23 »

"You can field them too" is not really a good counter-argument though. That requires wanting to field units that use the weapon, in other words mixed tech or Clan units. For some factions that may not even be an option (if one does follow faction restrictions).

Although it is true that some factions cannot access for this for some situations but OP did said that it's the 3150 era match, thus it is unlikely that there would be a faction that cannot access for it at all.

Besides, it is well said that 'you can do that' is not that good. on the computer games you can easily change your pawns, but for the miniature game, you rarely have the chance and it requires you to put aside your old models instead.

Empyrus

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #6 on: 27 March 2024, 13:24:33 »
Although it is true that some factions cannot access for this for some situations but OP did said that it's the 3150 era match, thus it is unlikely that there would be a faction that cannot access for it at all.
It does seem likely most factions certainly get access to cLPLs in 3150 but even then the selection may be extremely limited.
For example, the Periphery General list for ilClan era contains only 7 Clan or mixed tech mechs (didn't check vehicles). Of these, i think only the Vixen standard carries a cLPL. And it is only a light and not even particularly fast, so it is actually vulnerable to the same weapon.

Besides, it is well said that 'you can do that' is not that good. on the computer games you can easily change your pawns, but for the miniature game, you rarely have the chance and it requires you to put aside your old models instead.
Didn't actually think of miniature availability at all, i figured players will use proxies. A reasonable concern for sure.
Then again, i know i personally don't want to use a proxy. A Warhammer can represent any Warhammer for me, but i won't use it for another unit almost certainly (though i have no problems with others using proxies, just a personal preference regarding my own units, as is my preference toward WYSIWYG model matching variants).
« Last Edit: 27 March 2024, 13:26:36 by Empyrus »

Challenger

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #7 on: 27 March 2024, 13:40:49 »
I can't say I like the idea of banning or even restricting something that has been part of the core game for over thirty real world years now.

Though that weapon itself is the single biggest reason why I don't typically play Clan forces. Without the (internal) need to justify the presence of the best gun in the game on any given mech, I fear I would end up spamming the weapon.

....all that said, its not a ludicrously overpowered weapon or particularly broken to my mind. It is still only 10 damage, its fairly high heat and ultimately can be countered by the same tactic that has been gospel advice for IS forces fighting the Clans for over three decades.

"If you don't like being chewed up at range, get close."

No special tech required.  :angel:

Challenger

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #8 on: 27 March 2024, 14:22:15 »
There are plenty of cheap counters to CLPLs

Vehicles
Light Gauss Rifles
Artillery
Rocket Launchers
Shields
Smoke
LI missiles
Battle armor
And so on.  Heck melee mechs like the Ti Tsang are great ways to break up CLPL lines.

Iceweb

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #9 on: 27 March 2024, 16:50:35 »
Another workable counter to cLPL is stealth.  Sure the pulse still helps, but if you stay at long range its still a net +2 to hit (Warranty void where Void involved)  I don't know if cannon has any mechs but I could imagine a Chameleon and Null equipped mech with Reflective armor would be very hard for someone who likes to use a lot of cLPL to dislodge.   

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #10 on: 27 March 2024, 21:09:22 »
Slow, heavily-armored units are the real counter to CLPLs.  The to hit bonus doesn't matter as much and the laser's relatively low damage output for its size becomes an issue.
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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #11 on: 27 March 2024, 22:54:05 »
Sounds like sour grapes.  One of the easiest counters to CLPL is Reflective Armor, followed by Hardened and Ferro-Lamellar Armor.  That or just some form of artillery.

Am I remembering wrong that this is the same group that gets upset about anything they haven't tried being introduced?
Ferro-Lam doesn't really counter CLPLs?  It's just a generally really good armor type against almost everything.  Does counter SRMs really bad, and LB-X becomes a bit of a no-show.

Reflective is definitely a counter, but it has way more massive downsides than Ferro-Lamellor, Reactive, Ballistic-Reinforced, or even Hardened.  Laundry-list of vulnerabilities from artillery to bombs, physical attacks, fall damage, and specialty weapons such as tandem-charged SRMs and autocannon AP ammo.  I've gotten good use of the other anti-flavor armors, but reflective's penalties are just so rough...

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #12 on: 28 March 2024, 00:01:49 »
only the Vixen standard carries a cLPL. And it is only a light and not even particularly fast,
Point of order.
Did you just say a Vixen wasn't fast?
WHAT is your definition of fast?
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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #13 on: 28 March 2024, 00:02:52 »
Slow, heavily-armored units are the real counter to CLPLs.  The to hit bonus doesn't matter as much and the laser's relatively low damage output for its size becomes an issue.
THANK YOU.
I'm glad someone said it.
Just throw a Wall of Steel at them & watch them shrug off LPL hits all day.
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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #14 on: 28 March 2024, 00:06:07 »
As such, I tend to field at least one unit with a CLPL as a)it's accurate and b) it's range is great. I don't spam them, by any means,

Questions:
1.  Size of Forces?
2.  # of LPLs?
3.  Units your using w/ them?   (Warhawk-C & Vixen-1 play very differently)
4.  Size of the Play Area?
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DevianID

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #15 on: 28 March 2024, 00:11:43 »
I think the issue here is that any counter to the LPL is just a generic thing to try and 'out cheese' the LPL.  Its not a healthy solution, as most solutions are just generally good things versus all weapons, meaning the LPL, king of regular weapons, is still the best counter for them.  Looking at the list here:
Quote
There are plenty of cheap counters to CLPLs

Vehicles
Light Gauss Rifles
Artillery
Rocket Launchers
Shields
Smoke
LI missiles
Battle armor
Vehicles presumably means LOTS of vehicles.  Failing that, it means things like the 700 armor gulltoppr.  Any normal vehicle has the same pitfall as normal mechs--the LPL wins trades at all ranges.  So a hard to hit hovercraft or something encourages you to bring MORE LPLs, as the weapon that can hit the buggers.  The 700 armor gulltoppr does encourage other weapons though, as a slow -4 immobilized tank wants raw damage as they are so easy to hit, but the LPL is still a good weapon early to get those flanking immobilized results at long range.  Its only after the LPL immobilizes the gulltoppr that the LRMs and such can clean it up.
Light Gauss Rifles presumably means having 21+ hex range guns.  This just isnt the solution.  The ERPPC likewise outranges the CLPL.  If the light gauss rifle was a clan LPL killer, everyone would know it already.  On reasonable tables you cant kite an LPL forever, and you arnt hitting light gauss shots any easier then you are regular ERPPC shots, which is to say not enough to kill LPLs before they get in range 1 turn later.
Rocket Launchers are horrible weapons in BV.  The formula for RLs treats them as 1.5 energy weapons instead of 1.2 multipler one shot missile launchers, so they will always lose trades versus the supremely efficient LPL.  The fact that you want to be 3 hexes away from the enemy means RLs only work if you are spamming 100 cheap custom vtols, at which point you have an even worse cheese.
Shields are anti-everything.  So adding a shield to absorb LPLs just makes EVERY weapon worse by the same degree.  It doesnt stop LPLs from being the best weapon at hitting the shield unit for maximum long range damage.
Smoke is likewise anti-everything.  Making your to-hits higher just makes the value of the LPL go up.  Smoke is terribly balanced for the game, and pushes players to take MORE LPLs to actually hit the smoke'd units, not less LPLs.
Laser inhibiting missiles and reflective armor both reduce the damage that LPLs deal.  However, arrow-launched smoke LI also has the issues that smoke has, and artillery is even more broken in BV.  Reducing an LPL by 2 damage, more if you hide in more smoke and penalize yourself, doesnt help really at all... an 8 damage LPL will still win trades thanks to the hit bonus.  You are better off shooting regular arrow missiles instead of LI arrow missiles.
Battle armor once again is not an LPL counter unless you are talking about spamming tons of them... at which point its a spam list.  The LPL is still super efficient at picking up stealthy battle armor no one else can hit.  Like most hard to hit things, battle armor encourages more pulse lasers, not less.

There were other suggestions, but again they all come down to anti-anything solutions like 'take artillery in massive numbers' or 'float heavy bomb trucks at the player till they no longer wish to allow artillery or air power'. 

Reflective armor was the best suggestion I saw, with its drawbacks and high price though I can see the group preferring to limit LPLs.

In MRC, most games have a pulse limit.  When the pulse limit for a list was 40, the quad LPL mechs were too good, with 1st and 2nd place packing a 4 LPL mech.  Its only 4 total LPLs in the whole list, but 4 was still too much.  We tried 30-34, but then the most popular mech by far was the Direwolf A with 3 LPL and a gauss.  So most recently we are at 28 pulse limit, for 4 clan mediums or 2 clan larges max.  It has worked to open up more variety in mechs, as unlike when the pulse limit was 30 or 40 and we saw lots of the same LPL mech, at 28 pulse limit other designs became more popular.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #16 on: 28 March 2024, 00:33:22 »
Point of order.
Did you just say a Vixen wasn't fast?
WHAT is your definition of fast?

I'm assuming they confused the Vixen and Peregrine.
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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #17 on: 28 March 2024, 00:48:20 »
meaning the LPL, king of regular weapons, is still the best counter for them. 
I've never felt the LPL was king of weapons myself.
I have a LOT more fear of the MPL.
1/3 the tonnage for 21 Damage v/s 10, at 2/3 of the range.
Yeah, the MPL is something I'm worried about, not so much the LPL.

Which isn't to say I don't field the LPL, the D-Wolf-A is hands down the most common D-Wolf I field, but that has nothing to do w/ the LPL & everything to do w/ the low heat of the Gauss & Streaks

I'm actually trying to think now of where I use LPLs in my Omnimechs.

DWolf-A for the heat management.
Warhawk-C  (Sometimes, but for the BV and heat, I more often go A/D)
Gargoyle-A, but that is about the Twin ERPPC & not the 1 LPL.  (Just as often use the D)
MadDog-Prime  (Again, more about heat than pulse as I'm far more likely to shoot the MPLs + LRMs)
Stormcrow-B?  (I think it has LPL but it also has MPLs which is what I use it for.
BattleCobra-Prime  (Again, heat management)

I can't say that I favor any other "LPL" out there off the top of my head.

I can say the only mech where I actually use the LPLs as the primary weapon & strictly fight in the LPL sweet spots is the BattleCobra, at least till PBIs show themselves.

For the rest of the above its more about using the LPL as part of the overall platform which is heat cool compared to other configurations but still has some energy weapons.
I'd be happier making a custom podload that used ERPPCs or MPLs running in good heat patterns than I would making LPL configurations.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #18 on: 28 March 2024, 00:53:11 »
The Ryoken C is the one with the large pulse.  The B has six ER mediums and an ultra 20.
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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #19 on: 28 March 2024, 00:57:37 »
Ah yes, That's the one. 

Not a fan of the Ultra model myself.  It's the opposite of cool running.
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Charistoph

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #20 on: 28 March 2024, 01:21:43 »
Ferro-Lam doesn't really counter CLPLs?  It's just a generally really good armor type against almost everything.  Does counter SRMs really bad, and LB-X becomes a bit of a no-show.

It does in that it drops it from PPC strength to Large Laser strength, and it takes more than 2 to cause a PSR.  Still more the Standard Armor does.

Reflective is definitely a counter, but it has way more massive downsides than Ferro-Lamellor, Reactive, Ballistic-Reinforced, or even Hardened.  Laundry-list of vulnerabilities from artillery to bombs, physical attacks, fall damage, and specialty weapons such as tandem-charged SRMs and autocannon AP ammo.  I've gotten good use of the other anti-flavor armors, but reflective's penalties are just so rough...

Didn't say Reflective doesn't have its own share of problems, just saying its the most efficient counter.  Depending on how they play, Artillery, Bombs, and Physicals may not be an issue.
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Empyrus

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #21 on: 28 March 2024, 04:50:59 »
Point of order.
Did you just say a Vixen wasn't fast?
WHAT is your definition of fast?
I said "isn't particularly fast". 7/11 is pretty mundane light mech speed, especially since it doesn't even jump. Contrast to 6/9, with jump or not, that is merely average for a light.

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #22 on: 28 March 2024, 09:20:34 »
The Vixen moves 9/14.
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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #23 on: 28 March 2024, 10:08:35 »
The Vixen moves 9/14.
Oh, so it does. So, okay, it is fast. Hmm. Must've been thinking some other similarly shaped mech (visual memory so...), not the Peregrine though.

But still only 30 tonner, and the kind that actually gets targeted with pulse lasers since it is hard to hit it with anything else. Still think my point about cLPL availability, such as in Periphery General, stands. The Vixen may be good, but you can hardly built a force of cLPLs with just it. And if one happens not to like it or doens't have mini for it... Building a force with cLPLs is hardly guaranteed option.

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #24 on: 28 March 2024, 10:55:24 »
The Vixen may be good, but you can hardly built a force of cLPLs with just it.

Other than model availability, why?  It is one of the most popular dueling 'Mechs of the Clans, so should be one of the most readily available second-liners in an touman.

Now, in terms of should build a force of CLPLs with just that, I can agree.  One should have at least one anchor and one skirmisher in a force if one can manage.  The Warhawk C or Kingfisher Prime could handle the former, and either a Horned Owl or Vapor Eagle could handle the other.
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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #25 on: 28 March 2024, 11:12:21 »
Other than model availability, why?  It is one of the most popular dueling 'Mechs of the Clans, so should be one of the most readily available second-liners in an touman.
I'm not thinking a Clan force. Rather a force whose cLPL options are limited to the Vixen and perhaps some smattering of others at best, possibly no other options.

If a force's all cLPLs are in light mechs, and your force somehow relies on those cLPLs... Light mechs, even good ones like the Vixen, have their weaknesses. (All eggs in one basket situation really.)
« Last Edit: 28 March 2024, 11:14:09 by Empyrus »

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #26 on: 28 March 2024, 18:57:25 »
I seem to recall a Rifleman variant with four of the damned things...

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #27 on: 28 March 2024, 19:42:17 »
I seem to recall a Rifleman variant with four of the damned things...

Not a Rifleman variant, that's the Rifleman IIC.  The Supernova 4 also packs four of them.
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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #28 on: 28 March 2024, 19:54:10 »
Yeah, that one...

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Re: Clan Large Pulse Lasers
« Reply #29 on: 28 March 2024, 21:23:49 »
I'm not thinking a Clan force. Rather a force whose cLPL options are limited to the Vixen and perhaps some smattering of others at best, possibly no other options.

If a force's all cLPLs are in light mechs, and your force somehow relies on those cLPLs... Light mechs, even good ones like the Vixen, have their weaknesses. (All eggs in one basket situation really.)

If they are all in fast Light Mechs, they can be where you want them when you need them.  They will also be on separate hulls which means that in order to kill multiple of them you're splitting fire, either on one 'Mech (which is not wise against something that can achieve a decent TMM) or across your force, or you're overkilling one Mech.  Also since they are Light, they are (relatively) cheap which means you can put more of them on the field than fielding Heavies, Assaults, or even Mediums.

In fact there is precedence with the Ice Hellions.  Not the greatest force, but they would be the ones to do exactly this.

So, yes, you CAN hardly build a force of all Incubus.  It may be wiser not to (depending on the opposing force), but you can (again, aside from model availability).
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