3050 Clan vs IS (5v8) - Balancing a Match

[Psiclone]

I play Clan versus my IS friend. We have typically done 8000 Bv games but I was wondering what you would recommend to allow us to have a balanced match. 10000 points? Weight? FSM? Would you give the Clan better pilots or just use the multiplier from the Tech Manual (pg.314)? I'm just wondering how I can build a Clan star and not get wiped by being outnumbered. He usually outnumbers me and has better pilots because his IS mechs are so much cheaper. I am using the pre-built mechs from the 3050 record sheets.

[Ian Sharpe]

FSM actually does semi-OK for IS-Clan games.  He won't horribly outnumber you at that point.  Even a Star of Nova B, Stormcrow C, Stormcrow D, Puma B and Kit Fox A totals 11000 BV at 3/4.  And those are light and cheap.  Thats 8K BV without the improved pilots.  Picking by straight BV and then getting Clan pilots 'free' is another way to do things. 

[Red Pins]

FSM actually does semi-OK for IS-Clan games.  He won't horribly outnumber you at that point.  Even a Star of Nova B, Stormcrow C, Stormcrow D, Puma B and Kit Fox A totals 11000 BV at 3/4.  And those are light and cheap.  Thats 8K BV without the improved pilots.  Picking by straight BV and then getting Clan pilots 'free' is another way to do things. 

I play Clan versus my IS friend. We have typically done 8000 Bv games but I was wondering what you would recommend to allow us to have a balanced match. 10000 points? FSM? Would you give the Clan better pilots or just use the multiplier from the Tech Manual (pg.314)? I'm just wondering how I can build a Clan star and not get wiped by being outnumbered. He usually outnumbers me and has better pilots because his IS mechs are so much cheaper. I am using the pre-built mechs from the 3050 record sheets.

...If you play Clan for any length of time, yes, it does get boring, doesn't it?  I'm assuming you're just playing pick-up games, but remember, Clan Regulars are 3/4, while IS are 4/5.  If you're paying BPV for MWs, I'm afraid I can't help with that because I never bothered to use the system - it was invented after I started playing.   O:-)

I find its a fair game with Regular MWs (on btoh sides) and a 20% advantage in tonnage to the IS.  There are some scary, scary variants you can use, or favorable set-ups.  I do have a couple suggestions - use a minimum of two maps (to get the most of your long-ranged weapons), keep terrain as flat as possible (because few of your designs have Jump Jets), and request the ability to choose Configurations AFTER learning what type of terrain you'll be fighting on (that IS one of the biggest Clan advantages, after all).

Play canon designs only (player-designed ones can be designed to negate your advantages is specific instances), and remember, new OmniMechs and Configurations designed to cope with IS strategies and tactics are developed by 3067 (use Sarna Battletechwiki to find unexpected Configs).

You might also cope by establishing "Victory Conditions".  I think they're in TacOps.

[Diablo48]

If I had to guess, I would say you are probably not using big enough maps.  Clan units tend to have more speed, range, and accuracy than IS forces which costs you a lot of BV, so you need to be playing on large enough maps to take advantage of that.  I would recommend at least 3 by 3 maps, but you are really better off using rolling maps to eliminate all artificial boundaries.

[Sabelkatten]

If I had to guess, I would say you are probably not using big enough maps.  Clan units tend to have more speed, range, and accuracy than IS forces which costs you a lot of BV, so you need to be playing on large enough maps to take advantage of that.  I would recommend at least 3 by 3 maps, but you are really better off using rolling maps to eliminate all artificial boundaries.

Rolling maps typically make it a walkover for clanners unless you use aircraft and artillery. It also makes BV pointless since the system isn't supposed to be able to handle that (in fact, it's impossible to design a point system that can).

A 5 vs. 8 fight should do fine on 2x2 maps. However if you're using "standard" pilots (5/4 IS vs. 4/3 clan) that can give you a partial explanation right there - skill is overvalued for the average unit to keep it in line for extreme units (the classic 0/0 TC sniper under BV1).

The average clan mech is also somewhat overvalued due to the "armor bug" - BV adds offense and defense rather than multiplying together, which results in unbalanced units (large difference between offense and defense) to be overvalued. Due to clantech weapons, this means almost all clan mechs...

Using lightly armed clan mechs with 5/4 pilots usually means meeting IS forces on ever terms. But then you lose the feeling of superiority... ::)

[Diablo48]

Rolling maps typically make it a walkover for clanners unless you use aircraft and artillery. It also makes BV pointless since the system isn't supposed to be able to handle that (in fact, it's impossible to design a point system that can).

A 5 vs. 8 fight should do fine on 2x2 maps. However if you're using "standard" pilots (5/4 IS vs. 4/3 clan) that can give you a partial explanation right there - skill is overvalued for the average unit to keep it in line for extreme units (the classic 0/0 TC sniper under BV1).

The average clan mech is also somewhat overvalued due to the "armor bug" - BV adds offense and defense rather than multiplying together, which results in unbalanced units (large difference between offense and defense) to be overvalued. Due to clantech weapons, this means almost all clan mechs...

Using lightly armed clan mechs with 5/4 pilots usually means meeting IS forces on ever terms. But then you lose the feeling of superiority... ::)

2x2 maps mean that your Clan pilots can more or less hit any target anywhere on the battlefield and IS pilots are not far behind if you are not using 3025 tech so maneuver warfare is impossible.  The only way that is going to be workable for the Clan player is if they go to turret tech and try to crush the IS 'Mechs before they can do too much damage, and I think we all know the consensus on that one.  You really need more room to be able to outmaneuver your opponent and leverage the long range power of Clan 'Mechs which is why I suggested 3x3.  This also makes more capable pilots more worthwhile because you can keep the range open and the numbers high so they deliver enough of an improvement in performance to be worth the BV.

[Daedalus]

Sorry my english is not very good but i`ll have a try...

In my opinion you have two possible strategies as a clan player. What works for me are the two extremes:

1) Use slow (4/6 or slower) mechs with superior firepower and decent armor (for clan standards) and try to concentrate your fire to kill enough enemies before they do the same to you. Remember to take enough short range weapons as well and not only ErPPCs. 15 point holes are great, but a battery of er-mediums or medium pulse to kill them fast. Mechs that shine in this role are the

- Dire Wolf
- Night Gyr
- Warhammer IIC
- Imp C
- Warhawk
- Marauder IIC
...

If you go this way you have to disregard zellbriggen and concentrate your fire.

2) Go the mobile way as described before. Take only mechs that go at least 5/8/5 or 6/9, keep the distance and have long-range-hole-punchers like:
- Summoner
- Linebacker
- Phoenix Hawk IIC (2,4)
- Black Python
- Viper B
- Shadow Cat Prime / A
- Ice Ferret Prime
- Mist Lynx C
- Kit Fox S
- Fire Falcon B
- Incubus (2)

In this case you really need a big playing area.... 2x2 is minimum

[Iron Mongoose]

If Daedalus underestimates his English skills, then I might say he also does so for his tactical sense, since his advice merrors what I had been going to give, at least to a great degree.

The traditional way to play the Clans, and so most of the traditional Clan halo-mechs, matches speed, skill, and power in a combination that alows one to take and hold the stretegic innitive (not the dice rolls, but the perceptions of who's making who react to their tactics) and pumel their enemy into submission in the time and place of their chousing.  But, this does infact require large maps.  Sure, your Stormcrow can run rings around nearly any IS heavy (yes, I know about mechs like the Grand Dragon with the MASC) while still being able keep pace with top end slower mechs like the newer Marauders for power... but if its constrained by artifical map limitations, then that Marauder (and 60% of another mech) can easily enough courner it and take its speed and gunnery skill out of the equasion. 

What the IS side wants more than anything is to make the game about power and armor, since the IS side will nearly always have more armor, and if they pick well more power.  Small maps favor this greatly.

But, if you can't escape the small maps, you can always just pick top end units that offer a lot of poer and armor for their price (in BV, tons, C-Bills, whatever, it tends to be the same group of assualts and slow heavies).  Oddly, its not top fight mechs as much as it is middle of the road ones (Dire Wolf Prime or B, Savage Coyote, the Nova Cat with all the silly ACs, and so on) that offer the best value, since you still get the armor of the top mech, but save on expensive (in BV terms) weapons.  If you design your force cleverly, you can just go toe to toe, gun for gun with the IS and have a ghost of a chance, even on a small map, or in tight terrain that limits the movement and line of sight that moble forces crave.

[Psiclone]

Cool! Thank you everyone. I guess I'll just need to enforce we play on larger maps. When you say 2x2 I presume you mean 4 hexmaps to make a square? I'll definitely spend more time designing my force and really look at my strengths/weaknesses and play to that.

[Red Pins]

Cool! Thank you everyone. I guess I'll just need to enforce we play on larger maps. When you say 2x2 I presume you mean 4 hexmaps to make a square? I'll definitely spend more time designing my force and really look at my strengths/weaknesses and play to that.

...No, just a pair of maps, minimum, either top-to-bottom or side-to-side.  If your're worried about designing your force that much, I suggest two things; go for the fewest different units (different Configurations are ok), and go for hole-punchers rather than crit-seekers (PPCs or lasers, rather than SRMs, LRMs, and small lasers).

Watch out for groups; inexperienced players allow units out of support range of each other.  Groups of enemy units (especially when IS forces outnumber yours) are a bad sign; stay at range, force him to split his force and send his fast units ahead, and don't approach his forces until they are crippled (if it will take longer than one Weapons Phase to kill, its gyro isn't at least 1/2 destroyed or engine 2/3, if it isn't missing one arm and one leg, then its NOT crippled).

Kill any of his fast units that carry a significant weapon payload; if it can fire all and stay Running or Jumping at top speed, its a priority target.  Big hole-punchers, priority.  The rest of them are targets of opportunity (check their to-hit numbers and compare them to the more important targets - if they're easier to hit, shoot at them, but otherwise, keep the fire on the priority targets).

Oh, and don't forget Clan Honor (if you play with that - he has to break Zellbrigen first, before the gloves come off) and Clan vehicles do exist in 3050 (they weren't involved in front-line units, but they are in some PGCs).    If you don't have the books, you can look at them on Sarna just to get an idea.

[Crunch]

The basic premise of BV2 balancing is that you're going to use everything you pay for. Clan mechs generally pay a lot for range and speed, clan players who don't use those advantages tend to lose a lot. Bigger maps, 2*2 (4 maps) is kind of a minimum for maneuver warfare 2*3 or 3*2 (6 maps) is better and almost big enough to use elements like artillery and ASF, can help that, but one thing I think a lot of clan players overlook is that Heavy Lasers, Battle Armor and Protomechs all excel on small maps.

[Hellraiser]

I play Clan versus my IS friend. We have typically done 8000 Bv games but I was wondering what you would recommend to allow us to have a balanced match. 10000 points? Weight? FSM? Would you give the Clan better pilots or just use the multiplier from the Tech Manual (pg.314)? I'm just wondering how I can build a Clan star and not get wiped by being outnumbered. He usually outnumbers me and has better pilots because his IS mechs are so much cheaper. I am using the pre-built mechs from the 3050 record sheets.

5 v 8 is 13 mechs.   Now under the TW recommendation of 1 Mapsheet for ever 4 mechs your looking at 3.25 Mapsheets.

And while you could round down to 3 I don't suggest it.
Honestly it wouldn't be bad in Intro-Tech.  But once you jump to Standard-IS let alone Standard-Clan you really need to bump up the maps to a degree.

So, 4 maps, 2x2 is the bare minimum IMHO for the game your suggesting.
I personally would go 3x2 at 6 maps though 3x3 as suggested by a couple isn't out of the question but that starts to get very big & most tables can't fit them.
I personally would NEVER use rolling-maps unless I was in a Chase game that specifically called for that kind of long run.

I almost always balance by BV2.  Skill BV is a bit overpriced now w/ BV2,  I much prefer the BV1 table for skill improvement.  But that works both ways, no one says you have to take better pilots better than 4/5, for either side.

I'm not sure how he's getting 8 mechs, all w/ better skills, for the price of your 5,  sure you have clan tech but its unlikely he can have both #'s AND skills unless he's giving up some serious tonnage to you.

[Psiclone]

I'm not sure how he's getting 8 mechs, all w/ better skills, for the price of your 5,  sure you have clan tech but its unlikely he can have both #'s AND skills unless he's giving up some serious tonnage to you.

With 8000Bv I have 3-5 mechs depending on what I take and if I do any skill upgrades. He tends to have 6-8 mechs and pilot upgrades if he has points to spare which he tends to. He likes to run 1 or 2 heavies/assaults and a swarm of light and medium mechs that are either fast or have jump jets. He'll keep them all moving as fast as possible to make them hard to hit and since they are so cheap he'll give them better pilots.

I started this threat to determine what I need to do so we can run some balanced 5v8 matches and the advice you guys have given me have been great.

[Savage Coyote]

I have a 10k Star I haven't used yet that has:

Savage Coyote J
2x Shadow Hawk IIc 8's (should be 6/9/9 variant)
2x Griffin IIc 8's (should be 6/9/9 variant)

IIRC it comes out to just over 10k.  We do autopilot upgrades to speed the game up (everyone gets 3/4 pilots) and even with that, this star can be brutal and hard to hit, especially with some forrests (You have a +6 to hit?)  I have used the SCoyote J and two Griffin's in two 6k games and found them very effective against both Clan and IS opponents.

Of course, if he's zooming around,

Gargoyle E
Ice Ferret B (4/5)
Ice Ferret H
Phantom H
Fire Falcon H

All pilots are 3/4 except the Ferret B and you get a BV2 of 10040.  Takes some finesse and back stabbing, but it's doable.

[Jim1701]

Are you guys using BV1?  I thnk Hellraiser is right.  Even a mediocre assault is going to 1400+ BV plus skill modifier and fast/jumpy lights and mediums are expensive under BV2.   

[Savage Coyote]

both of my stars us BV 2 as thats what our group uses :)

[Hellraiser]

With 8000Bv I have 3-5 mechs depending on what I take and if I do any skill upgrades. He tends to have 6-8 mechs and pilot upgrades if he has points to spare which he tends to. He likes to run 1 or 2 heavies/assaults and a swarm of light and medium mechs that are either fast or have jump jets. He'll keep them all moving as fast as possible to make them hard to hit and since they are so cheap he'll give them better pilots.

I started this threat to determine what I need to do so we can run some balanced 5v8 matches and the advice you guys have given me have been great.

Ah, so you don't have a full 5 mechs many times & he's running the Light Mech Swarm.
Okay, there is an easy fix to this.
Use Fast Mediums w/ Pulse Lasers and destroy him.
KitFox-S, IceFerret-D, Grendel-D(?), Nova-S, StormCrow-B(?), MadDog-Prime just to name a few.

[Jim1701]

both of my stars us BV 2 as thats what our group uses :)

I was refering to Psiclone.  5 clan mechs + pilot skills for 8000 BV is a pretty big stretch.  Under BV1 fast, jumpy mechs are a lot cheaper which would explain a lot. 

[Hellraiser]

I was refering to Psiclone.  5 clan mechs + pilot skills for 8000 BV is a pretty big stretch.  Under BV1 fast, jumpy mechs are a lot cheaper which would explain a lot.

Yes & no,  armor cost more now, but Jumpy is actually cheaper that before.

[Savage Coyote]

Didn't realize it was 3050....

Stormcrow C (4/3)
Black Hawk S (4/4)
Ice Ferret D (4/4)
Dragonfly Prime (4/4)
Adder B (4/4)

10012

Everybody has at least one pulse laser, though I'm not super happy with the gunner/piloting as no one is "regular" clan gunnery, just piloting.  Oh well...

[Crunch]

If he wants to play 3050 IS lights on a 2*2 or smaller map just roll out 5 Points of Elementals and 5 Dasher Cs. Run him around in circles with the Dashers while the elementals eat his lunch.

[Diablo48]

If you are running into a lot of fast lights and have limited map space to work with, you may want to look towards assault 'Mechs with lots of Pulse Lasers to break the fast movers over.  My first thought is the Dire Wolf A with its three LPLs, deep ammo reserve for the Gauss Rifle so you can take bad shots, and thick armor with no BV sunk into movement you cannot use, but it is a bit on the expensive side at 2900 BV before pilot modifiers.

[Lyran Archer]

I find BV2, as it is and without the FSM, is just fine for balancing Clan vs IS.

I've played as Inner Sphere vs Clan and as Clan vs IS and have had no problems with balance either way - and I've posted the batreps to prove it.

A good example would be 12 000 BV per side, Inner Sphere takes 8 units (two lances) and the Clanner takes 5 units (one star). I would gladly play either side and be confident of balance either way.   

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, if your getting bum rushed Elementals will help, though not as much as they would before when no enemy could pass through the hex they occupied.

Honestly, if that is the case, and you have the map room the Adder B will work nicely for you.  When I played on some of the Invasion era MM servers you could field a binary of command stars made mostly of lights against a mixed weight IS company with a good chance of winning.  The numbers balanced up and kept your last mech to be moved from getting pinned in if it could not jump.  Which happened one time to my Timberwolf Prime when I tried Star vs Company.  Its best with 2x2 maps at least though . . .

[Sabelkatten]

Cool! Thank you everyone. I guess I'll just need to enforce we play on larger maps. When you say 2x2 I presume you mean 4 hexmaps to make a square? I'll definitely spend more time designing my force and really look at my strengths/weaknesses and play to that.

4 standard mapsheets to make a square is what I meant, yes. If you are trying to play "historical" (clan pilots 4/3 or better and not trying to optimize the BV/unit selection) I'd look at giving the clans a ~10% BV boost or using a larger map due to the noted BV deficiencies.

Using BV the Hellbringer Prime sucks big-time, but the Gargoyle Prime is a surprisingly good choice, for example.

[Crunch]

4 standard mapsheets to make a square is what I meant, yes. If you are trying to play "historical" (clan pilots 4/3 or better and not trying to optimize the BV/unit selection) I'd look at giving the clans a ~10% BV boost or using a larger map due to the noted BV deficiencies.

Using BV the Hellbringer Prime sucks big-time, but the Gargoyle Prime is a surprisingly good choice, for example.

The principle "deficiency" of BV2 is that it charges you for what you get, not what you use. The problem for most clan players using BV2 is that they pay a premium for mobility, range and accuracy and then wonder why they lose when they walk up to the enemy and stand there.

[Psiclone]

Yes we are using BV2 and are not using FSM. I can honestly say that I'm guilty of parking my 'Mechs in a nice piece of heavy woods and rarely moving them from there. I'll try better to keep them moving. At least from cover to cover.

[Red Pins]

...I won't go into the details here, but you might want to read this thread;

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,24897.0.html

[Sabelkatten]

The principle "deficiency" of BV2 is that it charges you for what you get, not what you use. The problem for most clan players using BV2 is that they pay a premium for mobility, range and accuracy and then wonder why they lose when they walk up to the enemy and stand there.

Well, that's a "problem" with any point system...

But the actual errors in BV2 (and BV1, for the matter) hits clan players extra hard.

-Adding (rather than multiplying) offense and defense together means there's a "sweet spot" where you get the most actual combat value out of a given BV. All but the most lightly armed clan machines miss this spot (advanced IS machines are usually closest).

-Ammo BV assumes all weapons need - and get - 2 tons of ammo. This is clearly nonsense since there are lots of weapons that need more than two tons ammo (HAG/40, anyone?) or much less than two (MG...) and of course lots of designs that mount much more or less ammo than needed.

-Stealth systems, skills, C3, and so on are all based on the assumption you can get full (or nearly so) use out of them every turn. The problem here is that you can theoretically get that much out of them - in which case they'd be undervalued if the price was dropped. But they really need a more advanced calculation system to take into account how the unit in question can actually use the system to get a fair value.

Off/def and skills hit the typical clan force more than most. Plus you have to look closely at ammo loads, esp. in classic 3050 designs (GR w/ 8 shots, anyone?).

Yes we are using BV2 and are not using FSM. I can honestly say that I'm guilty of parking my 'Mechs in a nice piece of heavy woods and rarely moving them from there. I'll try better to keep them moving. At least from cover to cover.

As long as you've brought slow designs without too many weapons this is workable even with clanners. But it's mostly second-line designs that work well in this role.

Assaults like the Dire Wolf look like a good idea for this, but they take a serious risk in facing massed SRM salvos and backshots. Especially SRMs and all the TACs and head hits they can cause is a major problem.

I haven't actually tried it, but some of the lighter armed Nova configurations should work OK if you don't want to move much... :-\

[Hellraiser]

As long as you've brought slow designs without too many weapons this is workable even with clanners. But it's mostly second-line designs that work well in this role.

Assaults like the Dire Wolf look like a good idea for this, but they take a serious risk in facing massed SRM salvos and backshots. Especially SRMs and all the TACs and head hits they can cause is a major problem.

How is this an okay plan with a StoneRhino or Bane but not a DireWolf ?