3050 Clan vs IS (5v8) - Balancing a Match

[Jim1701]

Well, that's a "problem" with any point system...

But the actual errors in BV2 (and BV1, for the matter) hits clan players extra hard.

-Adding (rather than multiplying) offense and defense together means there's a "sweet spot" where you get the most actual combat value out of a given BV. All but the most lightly armed clan machines miss this spot (advanced IS machines are usually closest).

I'm trying to under stand this.  I took 2 machines at random, the Timberwolf A and the Templar A and compared their BV values vs. what those values would be if the offensive and defensive values were multiplied rather than added.

Code: [Select]

Mech DBV   OBV BV    MBV BV Ratio* MBV Ratio* DBV/OBV Ratio*
Timberwolf A 962.98 1,891.29 2,854   1,350           1.38:1    1.31:1         1.02:2
Fire Moth D 213.19 2,094.00 2,307     668   1.11:1    0.65:1      1:10
Templar A 958.20 1,112.10 2,070   1,032           0.73:1    0.76:1         0.86:1

*Rounded a bit due to the large numbers involved

EDIT:  Modified formula to MBV = (DBV * OBV)^2
Under a multiplied BV (MBV) system the Timberwolf is even MORE expensive compared to the Templar than under BV.  I grabbed these units pretty much at random, their defensive values are pretty even while the Timberwolf has a much higher offensive value.  Perhaps different units?

EDIT:  Using the square root does make a large difference in the new numbers but only shifts the ration SLIGHTLY in favor of the Timberwolf.  Under BV you get 138 Templar A's for every 100 Timberwolf A's under BV vs. 131 Templar A's vs. 100 Timberwolf A's under MBV.

EDIT #2:  Added the Fire Moth D since that would probably qualify as a "glass cannon" type unit.  Obviously there is a significant difference between the defensive and offensive BV values for the Fire Moth D and it does make a significant difference when using the MBV method

I could see making this modification though I believe a change would need to be made regarding the defensive value of the IS XL Engine.  I believe it would be overvalued under this system.
 

[Hellraiser]

I'm pretty sure the method you used is not what he means.

IIRC I've seen it in the past and its the Square Root of Multiplying them, which was not written above so you couldn't know that.   Or double the square root,  basically its a way of calling a glass canon a glass canon where in BV a glass canon still cost a lot of BV.

[Sabelkatten]

How is this an okay plan with a StoneRhino or Bane but not a DireWolf ?

Stone Rhino and Bane are both assaults, like the Dire Wolf...

But I could have been clearer:

1) If you're planning to camp, you should bring slow designs.

2) If you're playing clan and balancing by BV, you should bring lightly (for clan mechs) armed designs.

3) If you're camping, you should be careful about using assault mechs (or high-end heavies, for the matter) because they are very vulnerable to SRM spam (and backstabs) and when you're camping you have by default given up on any attempt to control the range.

To sum it up: if you're planning to camp with clanners, you should be looking at slow mediums and low-end heavies with lots of armor and (relatively) light armament. Assault mechs have to be deployed with a lot of care!

I'm trying to under stand this.  I took 2 machines at random, the Timberwolf A and the Templar A and compared their BV values vs. what those values would be if the offensive and defensive values were multiplied rather than added.

Code: [Select]

Mech DBV   OBV BV    MBV BV Ratio* MBV Ratio* DBV/OBV Ratio*
Timberwolf A 962.98 1,891.29 2,854   1,350           1.38:1    1.31:1         1.02:2
Fire Moth D 213.19 2,094.00 2,307     668   1.11:1    0.65:1      1:10
Templar A 958.20 1,112.10 2,070   1,032           0.73:1    0.76:1         0.86:1

*Rounded a bit due to the large numbers involved

EDIT:  Modified formula to MBV = (DBV * OBV)^2
Under a multiplied BV (MBV) system the Timberwolf is even MORE expensive compared to the Templar than under BV.  I grabbed these units pretty much at random, their defensive values are pretty even while the Timberwolf has a much higher offensive value.  Perhaps different units?

EDIT:  Using the square root does make a large difference in the new numbers but only shifts the ration SLIGHTLY in favor of the Timberwolf.  Under BV you get 138 Templar A's for every 100 Timberwolf A's under BV vs. 131 Templar A's vs. 100 Timberwolf A's under MBV.

EDIT #2:  Added the Fire Moth D since that would probably qualify as a "glass cannon" type unit.  Obviously there is a significant difference between the defensive and offensive BV values for the Fire Moth D and it does make a significant difference when using the MBV method

I could see making this modification though I believe a change would need to be made regarding the defensive value of the IS XL Engine.  I believe it would be overvalued under this system.
 

Yeah, I meant sqrt(OBV*DBV). It's been up so many times I thought everyone knew what I meant... :-[

It appears you've noted the effect, too. It's most obvious for the really extreme units, but the 5-10% difference you get even with more "ordinary" units (like the Timby A) does add up.

Of course there also needs to be a lot more changes to make it good, but multiplying the values does at least take care of one of the bigger problems in a simple way.

[Crunch]

-Ammo BV assumes all weapons need - and get - 2 tons of ammo. This is clearly nonsense since there are lots of weapons that need more than two tons ammo (HAG/40, anyone?) or much less than two (MG...) and of course lots of designs that mount much more or less ammo than needed.

-Stealth systems, skills, C3, and so on are all based on the assumption you can get full (or nearly so) use out of them every turn. The problem here is that you can theoretically get that much out of them - in which case they'd be undervalued if the price was dropped. But they really need a more advanced calculation system to take into account how the unit in question can actually use the system to get a fair value.

The first of these is nominally neutral (although given the frequency that I actually see clan players use non energy weapons and the porblems with RAC ammo I'd say it hurts IS worse) and the second effects IS more than clan.

Off/def and skills hit the typical clan force more than most. Plus you have to look closely at ammo loads, esp. in classic 3050 designs (GR w/ 8 shots, anyone?).

The issue with skills is a "pay what you get not what you use issue." The value of high gunnery and piloting skills goes up with the average TN. At low TNs higher skills are overpriced, but given that clan machines typically have advantages in range and speed why would you possibly allow a low TN game? This is another case where the problem is tactics not mechanics.

[Diablo48]

One very good 'Mech to look into would be the Kingfisher.  That thing can take a stupid amount of punishment and does not have a lot of pod space so it should be closer to the balance point than most 'Mechs.

The first of these is nominally neutral (although given the frequency that I actually see clan players use non energy weapons and the porblems with RAC ammo I'd say it hurts IS worse) and the second effects IS more than clan.

The point is identifying shortcomings of the system because they can be exploited by either side.  This applies in IS vs. IS as well as IS vs. Clan, so it should be addressed to improve balance.

The other big shortcoming is balancing weapons with targeting modifiers across different gunnery skills because they have a proportionally different effect.  After all, a 5/6 green IS pilot will do a lot more damage against just about anything if you give him pulse bonuses, but a 1/2 elite Clan pilot will not see a significant improvement in most cases.

The issue with skills is a "pay what you get not what you use issue." The value of high gunnery and piloting skills goes up with the average TN. At low TNs higher skills are overpriced, but given that clan machines typically have advantages in range and speed why would you possibly allow a low TN game? This is another case where the problem is tactics not mechanics.

Yes, very much this.  I ran the numbers for improved gunnery a while back, and the result was that the better pilot had an advantage down to a surprisingly low number (it was like 6 or 7).  It was actually enough that while piloting is probably overpriced for most units given the number of PSRs vs. weapon attacks made, you can actually carry the extra cost with your superior gunners if you use a harasser like the Viper B with its ERPPC to keep the numbers very high.

[MacabreDerek]

Since this is simular to what I was going to post, figured I would bring it in here.

Currently starting into Clan tech and I'd like to try and play the Clans as a lvl1 honour.  What I am getting the impression is balancing it requires the IS and the Clan player to get equivilant BV in mechs assuming 4/5 pilots, then allow the clan player the 3/4 pilots on Honour 1.

Just rough balancing, still looking for better information, but thusfar it's worked in a few test games.

[Sabelkatten]

Since this is simular to what I was going to post, figured I would bring it in here.

Currently starting into Clan tech and I'd like to try and play the Clans as a lvl1 honour.  What I am getting the impression is balancing it requires the IS and the Clan player to get equivilant BV in mechs assuming 4/5 pilots, then allow the clan player the 3/4 pilots on Honour 1.

Just rough balancing, still looking for better information, but thusfar it's worked in a few test games.

Using honor rules and BV gets real shaky... If you're playing against 3025 IS tech the IS player has to break the "rules" within a few turns anyway, so there's essentially no disadvantage to the clanner at all. If, OTOH, you're playing against an elite IS assault unit then things can get pretty dicey!

[Diablo48]

BV was fundamentally not designed to handle Zell.  It works alright for balancing duels so long as both forces are following the rules, but if you are doing Clan vs. IS then you are going to need to give the Clans something to make up for the restrictions.

[marauder648]

Using honor rules and BV gets real shaky... If you're playing against 3025 IS tech the IS player has to break the "rules" within a few turns anyway, so there's essentially no disadvantage to the clanner at all. If, OTOH, you're playing against an elite IS assault unit then things can get pretty dicey!

Truth, 3025/3050 vs Invader clan tech trying to stick to zell just resulted in massacres even when the clans were outnumbered thanks to BV.  I took part in a multi-player weekend long campaign of skirmishes and big battles, DCMS vs Smoke Jaguar and when we tried to stick to the duels the Clan Mechs won out 9/10 times thanks to their superior tech and firepower, only by turning it into a general melee did the IS mechs stand a chance and even then it was dicey, although getting our DCMS player in charge of the more professional regiment and its 3050 equipment to not duel was a pain in the rump.  Us 'militia' players were far less inclined to stick to Bushido.  But even the pro recognised that fighting the clans at their own game was a bad idea after his AS7-K got taken out rather easily by a Timber Wolf Prime.

[Iron Mongoose]

BV was fundamentally not designed to handle Zell.  It works alright for balancing duels so long as both forces are following the rules, but if you are doing Clan vs. IS then you are going to need to give the Clans something to make up for the restrictions.

I've long agreed with this.  Equal BV "assumes" that each playing is going to bring their best, because it seeks to make the sides even in strength and alow skill to determine the outcome.  But, if one player is giving up some possible tactics and not bringing their best, then can one take even forces?  It is possible, if the Clan player using zell is very good and very tricky, since there are tactics that can make zell more workable or less workable, but mostly I find zell (especaly level 1 zell) to be a disadvantage, and I like for the Clan force to be better than the IS force in such games (that doesn't nessissarly mean more BV, since we all know its deficancies, but a force that an experianced player looks at in the context of pilots and terrain and objectives and says "that's better").

Terrain can also be a factor.  As the fluff tells us, lots of broken terrain helps the IS, and open terrain helps the Clans, so they can each engage their chousen opponent at range and just pound the crap out of them.  At range against fast mechs, IS return fire won't be much effect no matter which mech its directed against, so zell is a comperitively small disadvantage.  But, in broken terrain the IS can lure a Clan mech in a dual into position where several IS mechs can fire at it, while other Clans mechs can not fire at their respective opponents.  In a non-zell battle a smart player wouldn't let one of their mechs be lured out like that, but if you're playing very in cherictor and focusing on your duals, its very possible.

Lastly, know all the tricky zell rules.  For example, a Clan mech can challange several IS mechs at a time (and why not?) so you don't have to leave seven mechs out when your star engages a company; each can have at least a share of a Clan opponent right from the get go.  A mech that breaks line of sight for several turns (two?) can be declaired to be out of the dual.  And a few other things that I often forget (but you shouldn't, if you plan on doing it).

Mostly, I only use level 1 zell in early invasion senerios, where I have three or more times the combat power of my opponents and zell is a way to make rolling over my happless opponents more intresting (or, to make being rolled over more intresting, if I'm the IS side).

[stuuk]

Hello all. My group has recently started playing again using BV2 and Solaris Skunkwerks.
We are however having a number of issues related to balancing that we never remember having several years ago.
Some have already been mentioned, but namely:

(1) The gun/pilot skill costs have been bumped for some reason. They always seemed fine before and the new ones look too high.
(2) The intended method of balancing Clan-nonclan fights seems to be force multiplier. That never used to be required and we played clan-nonclan a lot.
Now, it seem without using this method the clans don't have a chance.
(3) The points values of everything seems higher but especially for clans. So, an old BV1 MadCat might cost 600 points more now.
Not a big deal in itself, but not all mechs are proportionally more expensive or so it seems.
This seems to have the overall effect of making the clan machines (which were already expensive) proportionally more expensive than they used to be.

In any case what I am really after is trying to balance a fight because frankly the changes they made to BV2 seem to be pretty awful and we haven't had a decently balanced game since we switched to them (simply because of skunkwerks)
So we are thinking of going back to BV1 for mechwarrior costs.

Would that balance things back up or would the clanner need more?

[Lyran Archer]

(1) The gun/pilot skill costs have been bumped for some reason. They always seemed fine before and the new ones look too high.
(2) The intended method of balancing Clan-nonclan fights seems to be force multiplier. That never used to be required and we played clan-nonclan a lot.
Now, it seem without using this method the clans don't have a chance.
(3) The points values of everything seems higher but especially for clans. So, an old BV1 MadCat might cost 600 points more now.

So we are thinking of going back to BV1 for mechwarrior costs.

Would that balance things back up or would the clanner need more?

(1) Clan 'Mechs are much more expensive and with very good reason - there are so much more powerful when used correctly.
(2) I detest the FSM tremendously and have never used it even when I play my outnumbered Clan Wolf against Inner Sphere hordes.
(3) Again, you are elite and will be outnumbered. Play smart - don't wade into slugging range.

Don't go back to BV1. BV2 works fine but you have to really come into the game as a Clanner with strategy:

1. Don't wade into a slugfest - keep at a distance (you have better range) and keep moving (you will have better mobility) to make yourself hard to hit. You will generally hit better than the Inner Sphere at long range as well.

2. Be patient - take a few rounds to kill a 'Mech rather than risk going in for the kill. If you move in too soon before whittling away the enemy, you will end up dead.

3. Take Elementals - they are hard to kill and great distractions to panic the freebirths while your 'Mechs are sniping.

I play as Clan against Inner Sphere many times and have NEVER lost! And that's without FSM and using BV2. I have posted some of those batreps if you look for them.

[stuuk]

Whilst I don't disagree with your strategic advice I must say that the clanners do play like that within our group.
And they do get hit, and they do go down.
It's only a matter of rolling enough bad shots at them with enough gauss rifles to clobber one.

Are you really suggesting that a Mad Cat Prime (for example) with a clan 3/4 is worth 3777 points?
That's roughly equivalent to two Atlas mechs with I/S warriors. 75 tons versus 200.

Notwithstanding that we don't use elementals (we can't generate a decent game with this point system using only mechs never mind anything else)
Your clan force, elite or otherwise shouldn't be taking down a force of more that double your tonnage.

[Colt Ward]

Well, the larger question, IMO, is how large is the playing area (IE maps) where the Timberwolf would face those atlas?

[Lyran Archer]

(1.) Whilst I don't disagree with your strategic advice I must say that the clanners do play like that within our group.
And they do get hit, and they do go down.
It's only a matter of rolling enough bad shots at them with enough gauss rifles to clobber one.

(2.) Are you really suggesting that a Mad Cat Prime (for example) with a clan 3/4 is worth 3777 points?
That's roughly equivalent to two Atlas mechs with I/S warriors. 75 tons versus 200.

(3.) Notwithstanding that we don't use elementals (we can't generate a decent game with this point system using only mechs never mind anything else)

(4.) Your clan force, elite or otherwise shouldn't be taking down a force of more that double your tonnage.

(1.) Agreed. You will get hit as a Clanner, but if you are using your superior range, mobility, and gunnery, your enemy should be getting hit a lot more often.

(2.) Yes! When I first started playing Clan many years ago before BV or CV even existed, we used tonnage. My brother and I would take 4:1 odds (400 tons IS vs 100 tons Clan, for example) and win decisively against others in our gaming group. Arguably, I do use Clan Large Pulse Lasers a lot - virtually always. I would gladly go against 3:1 odds and laugh hysterically against mere 2:1 odds as a Clanner.

(3.) Start using Elementals. There are worth about 500 BV per point of five and no Clan force should go to battle without them. There are worth their weight in gold and your Clan forces will easily succeed with them . I almost never let my Clan Wolf forces, no matter how small, go to battle without them.

(4.) My Clan Wolf forces have faced double their tonnage before and won easily. I would even go against triple and have done quadruple and succeeded. Some of my batreps are here. Heck, my last batrep was IS vs IS and I faced 6000 BV vs my 4000 BV (the Defend the DropShip scenario) and won. I had two 20-ton 'Mechs toe-to-toe with eighty-tonners!

[Crunch]

Are you really suggesting that a Mad Cat Prime (for example) with a clan 3/4 is worth 3777 points?
That's roughly equivalent to two Atlas mechs with I/S warriors. 75 tons versus 200.

In BV2 you pay for what you get, not what you use.

The MadCat Prime is a 5/8 with a two clan ER Larges, and 2 Clan LRM 20s and an accuracy advantage. The AS7-Ds you have to use to shoe horn two into the BV of a MadCat Prime have one weapon that can reach past 9 Hexes and extremely limited ammo for it. Unless the Atlases can pin the MadCat against a wall the MadCat will take the Atlases most of the time unless the MadCat player is brain dead.

[Diablo48]

Whilst I don't disagree with your strategic advice I must say that the clanners do play like that within our group.
And they do get hit, and they do go down.
It's only a matter of rolling enough bad shots at them with enough gauss rifles to clobber one.

The Clan player should be able to give out enough more than they take to have an even match unless you are playing on a postage stamp.  Just remember that the suggested map sizes only really work in 3025.  When using Clan tech even 2x2 mapsheets is too small to use anything other than assault 'Mechs so you really need to be using 3x3 playing fields or rolling terrain to give the Clan forces room to use the speed, range, and accuracy they pay so much BV for.

Are you really suggesting that a Mad Cat Prime (for example) with a clan 3/4 is worth 3777 points?
That's roughly equivalent to two Atlas mechs with I/S warriors. 75 tons versus 200.

Frankly, this is laughably unfair in favor of the Timber Wolf.  Unless you are fighting in a city it is never obliged to come within range of anything but the token LRMs on the Atlases which do not have an appreciable chance of bringing it down before they run out of ammo while it is free to beat on them with its lasers all day.

That said, a number of Clan 'Mechs do get over-BVed because they carry almost no ammo for their weapons which they still pay full price for or almost no armor which causes problems because OBV ad DBV are added (they should take the root mean square), but for most rationally designed 'Mechs this is no more than a 5~10% increase.

[Jim1701]

That said, a number of Clan 'Mechs do get over-BVed because they carry almost no ammo for their weapons which they still pay full price for or almost no armor which causes problems because OBV ad DBV are added (they should take the root mean square), but for most rationally designed 'Mechs this is no more than a 5~10% increase.

Lacking ammo is not cause to say the unit is over valued in BV.  It merely points to a design flaw in the unit.  Units such as the T-Wolf Prime were theoretically designed for clan style warfare where a limited amount of ammo is actually an asset in many cases.  Weapon BV does not take into account durability as part of its calculations.  Trying to make it do so is an exercise in futility. 

OTOH there is some merit to the suggestion that taking the square root of the product of the OBV and DBV is more accurate that adding the values together.  At the very least I hope some play testing occurs in this area with TPTB.  I realize that a mathematical calculation of this type by hand would be time consuming but any pocket calculator in existence can do it with ease let alone any advanced calculator program or app you can use on pretty much any PC, tablet or smart phone. 

[stuuk]

Perhaps my choice of an atlas was a bad comparison. It was more about the raw tonnage involved than any specific mech.
We've played several times with the new BV and we are using the clans properly - they just seem to be far too expensive.

Yes the clan do hit more at range and don't get hit as often, but we've found that they /need/ to hit a lot more than the IS because they will simply get overwhelmed and have less armour to tick off.

Doesn't seem to be anyone agreeing that they are too expensive though, which is puzzling to me because at my club we have pretty much come to the consensus that they cannot win at BV2 since we have never see them come even close.

[Lyran Archer]

Doesn't seem to be anyone agreeing that they are too expensive though, which is puzzling to me because at my club we have pretty much come to the consensus that they cannot win at BV2 since we have never see them come even close.

Adjust as your gaming group needs it. For example, they get the Clan 'Mechs for base cost and then the 3/4 Trueborn pilots for free. That would be my recommendation.

I've never had a problem being Clan using BV2, but on the other hand, my brother and I have demolished Clan Stars when we play as Inner Sphere.

[stuuk]

Yep i think the 'free' 3/4's is probably the way to go.
I really don't like the force multiplier idea so that's a definite no.

Perhaps it's down to the opponent you face as much as anything for example we generally let the I/S player choose from pretty much any pre-3075 stuff they want.
So there are lots of gauss rifles and ERPPCs. Could that be skewing our results compared to yours?

[TigerShark]

Even 2x2 is tiny for Clan. A Clan ER Large Laser has a max range of 25 hexes. This means you're within range if you step off the map edge only 7 hexes. 3x3 is about the minimum I'd play for a full Star of Clan units. Is it big? Yes. But that's how Clans play.

Also, BV doesn't work for IS Clan, IMO. It's not the "best we have." Play the game as a scenario and carefully choose units on both sides if you're trying to achieve balance. Some units can't/shouldn't be used against Inner Sphere from the Clan side in this case. Units with 5 jump + ER Large or Large Pulse, for example. On the IS side, limit the number to 8 units so swarming doesn't occur. BV can be a mildly helpful guide, but it's practically useless unless the map works for every unit type.

[Red Pins]

Hello all. My group has recently started playing again using BV2 and Solaris Skunkwerks.
We are however having a number of issues related to balancing that we never remember having several years ago.
Some have already been mentioned, but namely:

(1) The gun/pilot skill costs have been bumped for some reason. They always seemed fine before and the new ones look too high.
(2) The intended method of balancing Clan-nonclan fights seems to be force multiplier. That never used to be required and we played clan-nonclan a lot.
Now, it seem without using this method the clans don't have a chance.
(3) The points values of everything seems higher but especially for clans. So, an old BV1 MadCat might cost 600 points more now.
Not a big deal in itself, but not all mechs are proportionally more expensive or so it seems.
This seems to have the overall effect of making the clan machines (which were already expensive) proportionally more expensive than they used to be.

In any case what I am really after is trying to balance a fight because frankly the changes they made to BV2 seem to be pretty awful and we haven't had a decently balanced game since we switched to them (simply because of skunkwerks)
So we are thinking of going back to BV1 for mechwarrior costs.

Would that balance things back up or would the clanner need more?

...Clan mechs can also be a challenge for players to get results, I've found newer players aren't able to adjust their stategy and tactics to take full advantage of Clan weapons and equipment

[Lyran Archer]

Even 2x2 is tiny for Clan.

On the IS side, limit the number to 8 units so swarming doesn't occur.

I think four maps in a 2x2 arrangement is fine - 3x3 (9 maps!) is too big.

I will definately agree with TigerShark about the numbers limit, however. Excellent idea! For every Clan Star (5 units) the Inner Sphere can have two lances (8 units). That, and free 3/4 Trueborn pilots should change things around in your gaming group.

[TigerShark]

I think four maps in a 2x2 arrangement is fine - 3x3 (9 maps!) is too big.

I will definately agree with TigerShark about the numbers limit, however. Excellent idea! For every Clan Star (5 units) the Inner Sphere can have two lances (8 units). That, and free 3/4 Trueborn pilots should change things around in your gaming group.

How would you use a ranged Clan unit like a Supernova or Warhawk on such a small map? The Inner Sphere could run into your short bracket within 2 - 3 turns. Small maps (32 x 34) don't work for Clan games; they inherently favor the Inner Sphere or the side with brawlers. For what reason would a larger map (48 x 51) be "too big"?

[Jim1701]

Adjust as your gaming group needs it. For example, they get the Clan 'Mechs for base cost and then the 3/4 Trueborn pilots for free. That would be my recommendation.

BV may have some issues but that is a 38% boost for the clan force for free.  I'd have to walk away if that is considered the only viable solution.  You might as well use stock FSM in that case. 

[stuuk]

But Jim, using FSM is almost the same.
5vs8

5/8=0.62
8/5=1.6
(1.6+0.62) - 1 =1.22


5v9

5/9=0.55
9/5=1.8
(0.55+1.8 ) - 1 = 1.35

So the people who wrote the points system are saying that in order to make their system work in a 5v8 or 5v9 game you should have between 22% and 35% more points. Or more or less, free clan pilots.

[Jim1701]

But Jim, using FSM is almost the same.
5vs8

5/8=0.62
8/5=1.6
(1.6+0.62) - 1 =1.22


5v9

5/9=0.55
9/5=1.8
(0.55+1.8 ) - 1 = 1.35

So the people who wrote the points system are saying that in order to make their system work in a 5v8 or 5v9 game you should have between 22% and 35% more points. Or more or less, free clan pilots.

The former is no where near free 3/4 pilots though the latter is.  Which is why I would say if you are going to give a bonus to the clan for using FSM is probably better than an arbitrary number.  Personally, I would neither take nor give a bonus playing for or against the Clans but YMMV. 

[stuuk]

Just out of curiosity do you play clan vs I/S games?

Again, I know people are saying here that the clans should be winning but on Saturday I kicked the living snot out of a dodgyy-dodgy-weavy clan guy who was using cover, running like a madman and trying to keep range. Running from a MASC Berserker with a big hatchet is not so easy especially if he's on a suicide charge because and here's the crux of the matter - the IS guy can take a ton more damage than the clanner, but the clanner cannot afford to get hit.

[Sabelkatten]

I think people are missing a thing about map size. Sure using a fast long-range unit like the Timby Prime might be tough on a 2x2 map (esp. with a G3 pilot, since that pays off most at long range). But there are perfectly good clan mechs for fighting at shorter ranges, you just have to look for the ones that don't pack in massive amounts of expensive weapons (esp. long-range ones). Crossbow A, f.ex, is decently fast, pretty tough, and throws 44 damage out to range 12 (IS assault-level firepower) for 1797 BV. The Viper Prime might not have the best firepower ever, but it's a beast against short-range IS pulse lasers and just 1450 BV.