'New School' - Mech design in 3145

[Scotty]

I believe Mastergunz's problem with the Trebaruna is that it isn't unusual, and could probably accomplish the exact same thing with a larger engine and standard jump jets instead.

Upon further review, it cannot, but the point is that four jump on an Assault is neither unheard of nor particularly useful.

[Paul]

but as Improved Heavy Laser's were a Society developed, and last i knew, society exclusive prior to the end of the WoR

Neither of those things is correct.
It's true that the Society initially ensured the Clans were provided weaker copies of the HL and ATM technology, which became widespread. But that's not the same as being exclusively available to the Society; that only proved true for the iATMs.
iHLs are widespread.

[SCC]

I believe Mastergunz's problem with the Trebaruna is that it isn't unusual, and could probably accomplish the exact same thing with a larger engine and standard jump jets instead.

Upon further review, it cannot, but the point is that four jump on an Assault is neither unheard of nor particularly useful.

But it could switch to using 3 standard JJ (6 tons) backed up by a Partial wing (4.5 tons) as a cheaper way to get that much speed

[stoicfaux]

I just do not see the boost being significant enough to justify the loss of the extra features of the standards in any case.  Besides, those extra features give the standard racks enough of an advantage in some situations to allow them to remain viable even if the streaks have a major advantage in direct combat.  After all, a Streak LRM Carrier would be a lot less useful than the standard due to the loss of indirect fire to protect its thin skin even with the weight of the IS launchers.

Well, if you don't like Streak LRMs, then you don't like HAGs?  Personally, I see Streak LRMs as a replacement for HAGs.  A SLRM20 is roughly equivalent to a HAG30.

[Diablo48]

Well, if you don't like Streak LRMs, then you don't like HAGs?  Personally, I see Streak LRMs as a replacement for HAGs.  A SLRM20 is roughly equivalent to a HAG30.

The HAGs get a flack bonus for anti-aircaft work which is a major advantage over all types of LRMs and can be tied to a Targeting Computer for even more fun.  Also, the HAG-40 is significantly more efficient than the -30 and especially the -20.

[Wrayth]

HAGs also have a short range of 8.  That can be very, VERY useful at times.

[Diablo48]

HAGs also have a short range of 8.  That can be very, VERY useful at times.

That and another 3 hexes of maximum range which was the change I suggested for the Streak LRMs.

[verybad]

Well since the warriors caste used to live by the rules of honorable dueling, yes it makes sense the clans would not use it.  Now that the Inner Sphere clans have loosened up a bit, it makes sense for them to start using it. 

The IS clans did not have a lot of opportunity to capture Society tech and research.  The Sharks might have some of it, but for the most part the Inner Sphere clans had bigger concerns during the Society rebellion.

THey certainly didn't seem to find using targeting computers against opponents that didn't have one dishonorable. So I'd have to say they were off their rockers and realized it finally.

[theothersarah]

HAGs also have a short range of 8.  That can be very, VERY useful at times.

The +2 cluster bonus at short range that is not affected by ECM like Artemis is (combined with the long short range as you have mentioned) makes HAGs really nice. I like the Thunder Stallion with the HAG40 and LB20-X.

[Prince of Darkness]

I don't understand why anyone argues FOR the clans using stealth armor- it's like saying "These guys hit way harder than mine, but it would be better if it was MORE difficult for me!"

[Diablo48]

I don't understand why anyone argues FOR the clans using stealth armor- it's like saying "These guys hit way harder than mine, but it would be better if it was MORE difficult for me!"

Because not using it is stupid.

[Gus]

Neither of those things is correct.
It's true that the Society initially ensured the Clans were provided weaker copies of the HL and ATM technology, which became widespread. But that's not the same as being exclusively available to the Society; that only proved true for the iATMs.
iHLs are widespread.

I can remember several references in WoR and even ISP2 about the Society providing hamstrug examples of ATM. Where might I find references to them doing the same for Heavy Lasers?

[Paul]

The Heavy Laser is the weaker cousin of the iHL. The iHL is what was initially developed, but not what was initially released to the Warrior Caste.

[Jackmc]

I am also not especially surprised by the proliferation of Streak LRMs, although that is honestly not a technology that I am terribly impressed with.  Sure conserving ammo is nice, but they weigh so much more than standards that you do not really gain anything from the change in combat and the extra cost of the ammo means they are not really any easier on the logistics end either.

I think your analysis is a bit off. on the logistics side.  Higher cost per unit doesn't necessarily equal bad.  Frex.  Right now it costs somewhere north of $400 USD to get a gallon of diesel fuel to a FOB in Afghanistan.  Keep in mind that less than 2% of that costs is the gallon of diesel, and the rest is shipping costs. 

If tomorrow someone were to come up with a "Super" diesel that functioned ideitcally to diesel except that it gave you 5 times more mpg/run time than standard diesel, but at ten times the cost, the military would be all over it.  It would allow them to ship the equivalent of a frex. 100 gallons of deisel for around 25% of the cost of what they are paying now.

Streak LRM's function in similary way since log chains in BT are so ardous and constrained.  They are trading a high per unit cost for the abilityto simplfy your log issues not just on the shipping side but also the strain placed on your ammo reloading resources as well. 

Now in fairness, it gains that by a pretty steep cost to a combat units throw weight.  Whether that is justified or not depends on the doctrine of the force fielding them and on the realities of the battlefield they will fight on.  Frex.  I could see them more relaistically on a company or Batt-sized roving "troubleshooter" or raider unit but not so much on a RCT-sized formation that's used to fighting pitched battles with the majority of its assets (inlcuding its vast number of log units) present or say the garrison statioend to provide close-in defense to an LRM plant.

-Jackmc         

[Diablo48]

I think your analysis is a bit off. on the logistics side.  Higher cost per unit doesn't necessarily equal bad.  Frex.  Right now it costs somewhere north of $400 USD to get a gallon of diesel fuel to a FOB in Afghanistan.  Keep in mind that less than 2% of that costs is the gallon of diesel, and the rest is shipping costs. 

If tomorrow someone were to come up with a "Super" diesel that functioned ideitcally to diesel except that it gave you 5 times more mpg/run time than standard diesel, but at ten times the cost, the military would be all over it.  It would allow them to ship the equivalent of a frex. 100 gallons of deisel for around 25% of the cost of what they are paying now.

Streak LRM's function in similary way since log chains in BT are so ardous and constrained.  They are trading a high per unit cost for the abilityto simplfy your log issues not just on the shipping side but also the strain placed on your ammo reloading resources as well. 

Now in fairness, it gains that by a pretty steep cost to a combat units throw weight.  Whether that is justified or not depends on the doctrine of the force fielding them and on the realities of the battlefield they will fight on.  Frex.  I could see them more relaistically on a company or Batt-sized roving "troubleshooter" or raider unit but not so much on a RCT-sized formation that's used to fighting pitched battles with the majority of its assets (inlcuding its vast number of log units) present or say the garrison statioend to provide close-in defense to an LRM plant.

-Jackmc       

You do have a point, although if it is really that hard to get ammo out there then you should probably be sticking with energy weapons whenever possible.  Streak LRMs loose the special munitions anyways so that is no longer an argument for using them over ERPPCs, and that infinite ammo is very appealing from a logistics standpoint.

[Scotty]

Simultaneously, Streak LRMs are not affected by the ever-more-prevalent reflective armor.  That alone is enough to make me want to grab one.

[Maelwys]

Of course, one has to wonder how prevalent Reflective armor is going to be with Re-Engineered lasers.

If the lasers only ignored the bonus from Reflective armor, I might not think that they'd be too common, and reflective armor would have a chance.

But with Re-Engineered lasers negating alot of the specialty armors, I'm not sure why you wouldn't take some in a force.

[Diablo48]

Of course, one has to wonder how prevalent Reflective armor is going to be with Re-Engineered lasers.

If the lasers only ignored the bonus from Reflective armor, I might not think that they'd be too common, and reflective armor would have a chance.

But with Re-Engineered lasers negating alot of the specialty armors, I'm not sure why you wouldn't take some in a force.

Their performance against other armor types is at or below the standard lasers even with the bonuses, although it is still better than nothing.

[Jellico]

Reflective armour isn't that great on 'Mechs.
1. Laser weapons aren't as prevalent as say in Aerospace Fighters. So two thirds of the time it is no better than standard plate.
2. Physical damage and Reflective armour doesn't mix. Physical damage is extra damaging. I don't mean axes here. I mean falling over after 20 point hits etc.

Now ASF, Tanks and BA, none of which fall over are a different story (and BA Reflective doesn't have the physical penalties).



I find myself wondering if 3145 tech is about to render ranged weapons less effective. Took the Executioner I for a spin last night. In general terms it could close the range on just about anything, while still having the armour to be fully effective at short range.

We have had fast 'Mechs doing this kind of thing before. 10 hex movment is classic medium 'Mech territory. But mediums can't carry 200+ points of armour as well as useful weapons. And an Executioner is not a great chassis. Imagine a 75 tonner with MASC and a Supercharger.

Now why does this render ranged weapons less effective? Ranged weapons are heavy. Compare the Executioner F and I. 18 tons of guns vs 14. The F can't mount the firepower to stop the I getting into combat ranges. Only terrain features and blocking units can save it. Unless the gunner is very very good a Hellstar can be routinely dropped by an Executioner I. That has got to give pause for thought.

Now clearly ranged weapons still have a role. But has the technology move far enough so that the 'Mechs are fast enough and the short ranged weapons strong enough that decisive combat will revolve around dogfighting under 10 hexes rather than 20 hex sniper wars?

[Diplominator]

Reflective armour isn't that great on 'Mechs.
1. Laser weapons aren't as prevalent as say in Aerospace Fighters. So two thirds of the time it is no better than standard plate.
2. Physical damage and Reflective armour doesn't mix. Physical damage is extra damaging. I don't mean axes here. I mean falling over after 20 point hits etc.

Now ASF, Tanks and BA, none of which fall over are a different story (and BA Reflective doesn't have the physical penalties).



I find myself wondering if 3145 tech is about to render ranged weapons less effective. Took the Executioner I for a spin last night. In general terms it could close the range on just about anything, while still having the armour to be fully effective at short range.

We have had fast 'Mechs doing this kind of thing before. 10 hex movment is classic medium 'Mech territory. But mediums can't carry 200+ points of armour as well as useful weapons. And an Executioner is not a great chassis. Imagine a 75 tonner with MASC and a Supercharger.

Now why does this render ranged weapons less effective? Ranged weapons are heavy. Compare the Executioner F and I. 18 tons of guns vs 14. The F can't mount the firepower to stop the I getting into combat ranges. Only terrain features and blocking units can save it. Unless the gunner is very very good a Hellstar can be routinely dropped by an Executioner I. That has got to give pause for thought.

Now clearly ranged weapons still have a role. But has the technology move far enough so that the 'Mechs are fast enough and the short ranged weapons strong enough that decisive combat will revolve around dogfighting under 10 hexes rather than 20 hex sniper wars?

Enhanced mobility cuts both ways. Newer stuff like the Gyrfalcon can outrange and outrun almost everything while still doing enough damage to be hard to ignore. If it uses the mobility to the fullest it won't hit that often, but it's got plenty of LB-X ammo, not to mention the ERLLs.

That said, you're probably not wrong. There's a lot of new defensive and mobility options between IJJ, partial wings, proliferation of new armor types, Harjel...surviving to get into close range is easier than ever.

[Bratwurst]

One new trend I have noticed and enjoyed from the 3145 stuff is that the headcappers' rule of terror is significantly dampened, thanks to the new technologies available. The humble Combine footsoldier, Rockybobroboturkey (sic), can take a hit from a gauss or a cERPPC and walk it off well enough, as can the Shiro and a number of other models. Reflective and ballistic-reinforced armor offer more situational head protection, and the increasing numbers of torso cockpit mechs quite literally "play it safe" on behalf of protecting the squishy bits. The ex-Cat Wendigo is a wonderful example, but my star pupil for pilot safety would be the Lyran Commonwealth's stalwart Götbangdondrumset (sic). 

;)

[Weirdo]

One new trend I have noticed and enjoyed from the 3145 stuff is that the headcappers' rule of terror is significantly dampened, thanks to the new technologies available. The humble Combine footsoldier, Rockybobroboturkey (sic), can take a hit from a gauss or a cERPPC and walk it off well enough, as can the Shiro and a number of other models. Reflective and ballistic-reinforced armor offer more situational head protection, and the increasing numbers of torso cockpit mechs quite literally "play it safe" on behalf of protecting the squishy bits. The ex-Cat Wendigo is a wonderful example, but my star pupil for pilot safety would be the Lyran Commonwealth's stalwart Götbangdondrumset (sic).

Dear CGL,

Please get this guy to name all future 'mechs.

Thank you.

[Bratwurst]

Dear CGL,

Please get this guy to name all future 'mechs.

Thank you.

Eh, thanks! Pleasure's all mine! Dyslexia is one hell of a durg.