Even more mech design decisions that make no sense

[Kovax]

Why field a 75,000 C-Bill vehicle when you can build a MUCH more amusing 'Mech for 30,000,000 that offers essentially the same capabilities?

[Sartris]

Why field a 75,000 C-Bill vehicle when you can build a MUCH more amusing 'Mech for 30,000,000 that offers essentially the same capabilities?

this guy gets it

[Colt Ward]

And also don't build vehicles, so there's an explanation for why they don't use a Savannah Master clone instead.

And don't RL militries use jeeps/SUV's for this sort of stuff?

Depends . . . anything can be used for the purpose, but recon & FOs do tend to use humvee . . . but some forces will use light armored vehicles.

I love the Kruger and wish we had a version of it available for SW-era, but IMO it and the Ibex would typically be what you see out as recon.

[grimlock1]

Mechs that use Stealth, Null Sig or Chameleon systems, but are set up with short range weapons....

Beowulf -X-7a

Jenner JR10-X

Mongoose -66GX

Scarecrow -F4, though that one may get a pass because the CLPS does work against its prey of choice, gropos.

Stealth -5X

[Colt Ward]

Nah, its to keep them from getting clipped until they are in their desired range . . . but its also why I think Stealth may be a better system for combat units.  I can leave the stealth on until that last turn I am going to be running into point blank range, then switch the ECM to Ghost Targets.  But that type of play also works better in pairs IMO, stooping on the target with one having ECM in Ghost and one in just plain ECM to mess up anyone who is trying to respond.

[Empyrus]

Stealth designs with close range weapons are headhunters or ambushers. They use stealth to get in close, then murder their target with short range barrage, and then engage stealth and get out.

[Brakiel]

Mechs that use Stealth, Null Sig or Chameleon systems, but are set up with short range weapons....

Beowulf -X-7a

Jenner JR10-X

Mongoose -66GX

Scarecrow -F4, though that one may get a pass because the CLPS does work against its prey of choice, gropos.

Stealth -5X

Eh, I can see it, in-universe. As scout units, they really don’t want to get into fights. If everything goes right, the enemy won’t know they’re even there. If everything goes wrong, then they cut the stealth systems so they don’t have to worry about the excess heat when duking it out. But combat should be the very last resort, as the use of Composite Structure in Jenner and Beowulf shows.

[Empyrus]

Should be noted that many non-stealth armor stealth design are also very experimental, not really combat units but test-beds. Like the Jenner 10X, i think.

[grimlock1]

Eh, I can see it, in-universe. As scout units, they really don’t want to get into fights. If everything goes right, the enemy won’t know they’re even there. If everything goes wrong, then they cut the stealth systems so they don’t have to worry about the excess heat when duking it out. But combat should be the very last resort, as the use of Composite Structure in Jenner and Beowulf shows.

I do giggle at the Quickdraw -8X that uses stealth armor to juice up its TSM, so it can carry 12 ton handheld weapons.

In that family of weird XTRO ideas, the Axman -6X and it's limited run cousin, the -6T.   Similar hand held theme, no TSM this time. But 24+ tons of Thunderbolt 15 and ammo, that it can't use until after it drops the handheld gun, which if we are being honest, carries secondary or even tertiary weapons.

[Empyrus]

Design decisions that don't make sense:
Handheld weapons and 'Mechs that are build around those even more so.
Think the Axeman and Quickdraw had somesense fluff about them being "budget" Omnis? How are they budget when they're filled with rare or prototype tech, and utilize weapons that add even bigger logistical snag than podded weapons?

Just complete nonsense all around.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, handheld weapons are so limited in Battletech it doesn't make sense to try developing mechs around them.  The only real use is to cram them with a bunch of Rocket Launchers for a big alpha strike to try and get some significant first-round damage or to add LRMs to a mech that's loaded with short range weaponry so it can make a couple shots while closing.

[Sartris]

it was the jihad and nukes were falling all over. everybody got a little crazy.

[grimlock1]

Yeah, handheld weapons are so limited in Battletech it doesn't make sense to try developing mechs around them.  The only real use is to cram them with a bunch of Rocket Launchers for a big alpha strike to try and get some significant first-round damage or to add LRMs to a mech that's loaded with short range weaponry so it can make a couple shots while closing.

On the other hand, you can pack quite a few AMS into a hand held weapon mount. If you expect to be fighting a force with some nasty LRM boats, have the techs weld up some hand held mounts with a ton of armor, a ton of ammo and as many AMS as can fit. Nothing ruins an LRM carrier's day like watching all 4 LRM salvos get degraded by AMS.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,27139.msg617615.html#msg617615

[Sartris]

that's... amazing

[SCC]

And I'll have to check but I don't think it's allowed. Handhelds do work however if the weapons they contain are longer ranged then the ones your 'Mech mounts

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

You don't think what's allowed?

[Firesprocket]

Stealth designs with close range weapons are headhunters or ambushers. They use stealth to get in close, then murder their target with short range barrage, and then engage stealth and get out.

Outside of CLPS and Null there is still sense in the majority of designs carrying close range weapons.  The most obvious being you want to use the ECM to jam enemy electronics or use ECCM.  Something the design simply won't do while the stealth armor is active.  Ideally you are going to put a hill or terrain between you so that you can't take return fire.  When you can't though it is likely you are going to have a need for shorter range weapons.

The Sha Yu on the other hand an example of things that make little sense in any of its configurations.  It lacks the heat sinks to fire effectively unless you turn the stealth armor off with any version and one version has a C3 slave which will only work once the armor is turned off.  Certainly the 4B has better armor protection and can handle the heat with its armor turned off, but it is a juggling act and not one I'd want to deal with

[Empyrus]

I find the Sha Yu 2B quite usable. Stealth on, go to attack range (whatever your pilot's comfortable with i suppose), fire a turn or two, run away to cool down, repeat. Tricky, to be sure, and few infernos can ruin your day but Capellans live on the edge always...

Alternatively one might use stealth while going for a good firing spot, turn stealth off and attack, turn stealth back on and run away.

The 4B is certainly simpler to use. Get in close, turn stealth off, attack AND spot for C3 network (if you have one). The LRM is useful for, say, laying smoke screens or mines (assuming advanced rules in play, of course).

The 6B is the weird one for me. While the snubbies have nice short range, stealth would be useful at range 9 against many weapons.

EDIT Pity the 'Mech doesn't have mass for MASC, would've love it on the Sha Yu. EDIT actually, with some tweaks it might be possible...

[Colt Ward]

Supercharger might be better than MASC.

[SCC]

You don't think what's allowed?

AMS in handheld weapons, and yep, their not allowed. Might have to raise a rules question, but it looks like Machine Gun Array's, One-Shot, and (i)Narc missile launchers might also be on the prohibited list from what you'd think would be allowed.

[deathfrombeyond]

The Sha Yu on the other hand an example of things that make little sense in any of its configurations.  It lacks the heat sinks to fire effectively unless you turn the stealth armor off with any version and one version has a C3 slave which will only work once the armor is turned off.  Certainly the 4B has better armor protection and can handle the heat with its armor turned off, but it is a juggling act and not one I'd want to deal with

The Sha Yu is one of the inner sphere’s best skirmishers from tro 3067 and any publication before. A mech that has enough heat sinks to perfectly sink all heat from its equipment is typically an inefficient design, not an efficient one.

[grimlock1]

AMS in handheld weapons, and yep, their not allowed. Might have to raise a rules question, but it looks like Machine Gun Array's, One-Shot, and (i)Narc missile launchers might also be on the prohibited list from what you'd think would be allowed.

Uh, SCC, you asked the question back in 2013 and Xotl said AMS in a hand held was legit.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,27139.msg617615.html#msg617615

[Empyrus]

Supercharger might be better than MASC.

Maybe but we're talking about 3060s tech.
Personally i'm not a fan of superchargers because they are more forgiving than MASC, replicating the gameplay function while being more or less better (especially for assault 'Mechs, where a SC weights less than MASC nearly always).

[pheonixstorm]

There is something not right with you....

On the subject of Long Tom Cannons... Be glad the SLDF didn't have them and super heavies, you might have seen some super heavy King Crabs sporting 2 of them. iirc more range and more damage than the AC/20, probably same ammo load though.

[Firesprocket]

The Sha Yu is one of the inner sphere’s best skirmishers from tro 3067 and any publication before. A mech that has enough heat sinks to perfectly sink all heat from its equipment is typically an inefficient design, not an efficient one.

If you are planning to use the stealth armor then the 4b is the only one that makes sense because you are going to turn off the stealth armor when you get in weapons range.  The other configurations feature er large lasers and SnPPCs that benefit from longer range where the stealth is best used.  It doesn't have the heat sinks to fire the pair of weapons either at one time reliably with alternating fire.  That is simply poor design.

[Empyrus]

Nothing wrong with some overheating, the 'Mech doesn't even have anything explosive onboard.

Honestly, if it can't overheat, it is bad design as far as i'm concerned, means it doesn't have enough firepower.

EDIT Naturally excluding things like the Locust 1V that are recon and anti-infantry designs and simply can't pack enough firepower to heat up.

[Empyrus]

Ah, now i remember some 'Mechs that are utterly nonsensical.

The Penetrator variants.
The basic 4D is a good trooper, though i find its bracket-fire nature utterly boring.
But its variants...

The 4F swaps the ER lasers for Artemis-enhanced LRM-10s. Why? The Artemis works only in direct fire, and the 'Mech gained only a couple of hexes extra range while losing damage concentration. And only two tons of ammo total, and reduced pulse laser array... ugh.

The 6M is just as stupid. Pulling armor and MPLs for extra heat sinks? Why? The 'Mech is a bracket-firing trooper, it needs the armor and doesn't need extra sinks unless it is in close combat for extended periods (which it probably should avoid and can with those jump jets).

The 6S is perhaps even more moronic. Pulling armor for ECM, really? Does the FedCom not have dedicated ECM carriers so that they needed to use a trooper for that purpose?

At least the 6T is smart.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

On the subject of Long Tom Cannons... Be glad the SLDF didn't have them and super heavies, you might have seen some super heavy King Crabs sporting 2 of them. iirc more range and more damage than the AC/20, probably same ammo load though.

The LTC has the same damage as an AC20, but in 5 point clusters. Though it also hits adjacent hexes so it's devastating to tightly grouped opponents.

[Sartris]

RIP infantry and buildings

[Firesprocket]

Nothing wrong with some overheating, the 'Mech doesn't even have anything explosive onboard.

Honestly, if it can't overheat, it is bad design as far as i'm concerned, means it doesn't have enough firepower.

The chance of an ammo explosion isn't the issue.  It is the interaction of the heat the weapons produce in combination with the heat produced from the stealth armor.  The net effect is speed of the design is being ****** by the heat.  The best offense for the design is in the medium to long range where the stealth armor gets its benefits.  The solution is a simple one, just use standard lasers rather than the bling of the ER lasers.

In the case of the 6B, TSM solves the majority of the problems heat causes ****** the Sha Yu's movement. 

The 6S is perhaps even more moronic. Pulling armor for ECM, really? Does the FedCom not have dedicated ECM carriers so that they needed to use a trooper for that purpose?

There weren't that many early on.  The MUL states it didn't enter service until 3059, but I feel that was a changed.  I don't have the time to pull out my original 3055 TRO, but I believe it was referred to have been one of those original mods as well.  Meaning it should have been earlier than 3059.