Even more mech design decisions that make no sense

[Sartris]

the original 3055 phrases what became the canon variants as suggestions for changes rather than saying what is being produced in 3055.

[Empyrus]

The chance of an ammo explosion isn't the issue.  It is the interaction of the heat the weapons produce in combination with the heat produced from the stealth armor.  The net effect is speed of the design is being ****** by the heat.  The best offense for the design is in the medium to long range where the stealth armor gets its benefits.  The solution is a simple one, just use standard lasers rather than the bling of the ER lasers.

In the case of the 6B, TSM solves the majority of the problems heat causes ****** the Sha Yu's movement.

The Sha Yu has speed to lose, so i'm not really worried. Stealth plus lasers is 34-36 depending on movement, minus 26 and final heat at 8 to 10, so down to 5/8 or 6/9 which is still OK in my eyes. Drop one laser next turn, we're maybe few points down depending on movement. At that point, i'd retreat and go cool down. So, up to 24 damage over two turns, maybe not a lot but my enemy probably had difficulties hitting me.
Then again, i might run to 7 hexes from target (ER laser max short which is better than most weapons) and just turn off stealth and unload all weapons, then engage stealth and run away and keep stealth on while finding a new attack position and direction.

When you say TSM, you mean that the 6B could use that? (Because it doesn't have it.) I'm not keen on TSM and stealth armor, too much BV bloat usually. It works at times to be sure, but i prefer only of those. The combo can be powerful but it requires a lot of work to make most of it.

Funny enough, the Sha Yu is cheaper in BV than an equivalent design with standard armor, due to heat inefficiency. I like that. Not by much, but depending how strictly one enforces BV limits every little bit might help in honing force composition.

the original 3055 phrases what became the canon variants as suggestions for changes rather than saying what is being produced in 3055.

The original was ComStar TRO right? I wonder if they're deliberately suggesting bad ideas or if their analysts are just idiots.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Many of the variants from the original TRO 3055 were shockingly bad.

[deathfrombeyond]

If you are planning to use the stealth armor then the 4b is the only one that makes sense because you are going to turn off the stealth armor when you get in weapons range.  The other configurations feature er large lasers and SnPPCs that benefit from longer range where the stealth is best used.  It doesn't have the heat sinks to fire the pair of weapons either at one time reliably with alternating fire.  That is simply poor design.

Goodness, by that standard, the aws-8q must be teh suck.

If all a player does is play megamek with map sheets that have crappy Los where you’re lucky to have even 10+ clear hexes in a line, then sure, the 2b sucks.

If playing with actual terrain, where Los really opens up, the 2b is awesome.

[SCC]

Honestly, if it can't overheat, it is bad design as far as i'm concerned, means it doesn't have enough firepower.

If you're talking about a pair of backup ML, that's fine, but if you're talking the way 3025 designs tend(ed) to overheat, no.

[Caedis Animus]

Honestly, if it can't overheat, it is bad design as far as i'm concerned, means it doesn't have enough firepower.

By that logic, the Jagermech JM6-DG, Mad Dog C, Annihilator C2, Fafnir FNR-5, and Hellstar all have incredibly insufficient firepower.

Really can't take statements like that seriously in a world where Gauss Rifles, Clan DHS, and Clan ERPPCs exist.

EDIT; Yes, the ANH-C2 can overheat, but let's be honest, you are barely using that ER Small enough for it to matter.

[Firesprocket]

Goodness, by that standard, the aws-8q must be teh suck.

If all a player does is play megamek with map sheets that have crappy Los where you’re lucky to have even 10+ clear hexes in a line, then sure, the 2b sucks.

If playing with actual terrain, where Los really opens up, the 2b is awesome.

First off, no need for sarcasm.  Second lets assume for a moment that megmek doesn't exist and that people actually play on large board, like me.  Whether it is digital or physical we are playing to the same standard.  Now that we have both been adequately prepared the reason I didn't bring this comparison up is because it isn't an issue and isn't an appropriate comparison because:

The Awesome 8Q doesn't have stealth armor and thus 10 less points overall it has to manage.

Is 40 tons heavier

Has 97% armor capacity and will easily take (and is expected to) multiple hits from weapons that produce large damage.

In the bubble that is intro tech, or for that matter, even more advance tech games it carries 28 single heat sings which will 3-2-3 arrangement sustained for a modest portion of your game session.

The Sha Yu has speed to lose, so i'm not really worried.

That is exactly what we disagree about.  If a mech is designed to a go a slower speed and/or use more weapons or heat sinks its built with it.  The Sha Yu 2B and 6B armor protection is less than optimal and it is glaring because it is an issue with the location where the largest weapons are housed.  A mech that is designed to have TMM and throwing in stealth should be a around a +4 or +5, not +2 or +3.

Stealth plus lasers is 34-36 depending on movement, minus 26 and final heat at 8 to 10, so down to 5/8 or 6/9 which is still OK in my eyes. Drop one laser next turn, we're maybe few points down depending on movement. At that point, i'd retreat and go cool down. So, up to 24 damage over two turns, maybe not a lot but my enemy probably had difficulties hitting me.

I don't doubt your tactics.  I doubt them working 100% of the time.  Any amount of broken or concentrated terrain is going to slow you down.  The 2B simply can't take that much punishment.  The 6B is a little better off but not much.

Then again, i might run to 7 hexes from target (ER laser max short which is better than most weapons) and just turn off stealth and unload all weapons, then engage stealth and run away and keep stealth on while finding a new attack position and direction.

So you are abandoning your earlier statement and/or expanding off that there is little sense in carrying weapons with smaller ranges that carry stealth systems at this point (?).

When you say TSM, you mean that the 6B could use that? (Because it doesn't have it.) I'm not keen on TSM and stealth armor, too much BV bloat usually. It works at times to be sure, but i prefer only of those. The combo can be powerful but it requires a lot of work to make most of it.

To this point BV hasn't been a point in this discussion and it is going to go off the rails if we dive into the full depth of it here.  So much so it would require another thread.  So outside of the BV bubble there are sound reasons for it which can easily start and stop the positive step of forcing you into making what may end up be poor firing decisions and not be excessively slowed down in combat by them.  The other benefits to damage are just gravy.

Funny enough, the Sha Yu is cheaper in BV than an equivalent design with standard armor, due to heat inefficiency. I like that. Not by much, but depending how strictly one enforces BV limits every little bit might help in honing force composition.

The inefficiency in BV to me is negligible.  It's a poorly designed mech for its intended combat role based on the choice of weapons included.  The idea of replacing the ER Large Lasers with standard models apparently exists in BD:YZ.

The original was ComStar TRO right? I wonder if they're deliberately suggesting bad ideas or if their analysts are just idiots.

I chalk it up to new shiny tech that simply wasn't implemented well.  Plenty of that exists from 3050 and 3055.  If the Panther is flaming bag of crap bad then the Sha Yu is the kitty litter needs to be changed bad.

[deathfrombeyond]

By that logic, the Jagermech JM6-DG, Mad Dog C, Annihilator C2, Fafnir FNR-5, and Hellstar all have incredibly insufficient firepower.

Mad Dog C does have insufficient firepower when compared to other configurations of the same mech. The 12 double heat sinks are wasted on a mech that can only generate 14 heat under the absolute worst conditions (running with two engine hits and alpha strike).

Re jm-6dg, same argument about way over sinked.

Don’t have time to look at the others.

[Empyrus]

If you're talking about a pair of backup ML, that's fine, but if you're talking the way 3025 designs tend(ed) to overheat, no.

A couple of backup MLs? What is this, a budget militia? MORE FIREPOWER.

By that logic, the Jagermech JM6-DG, Mad Dog C, Annihilator C2, Fafnir FNR-5, and Hellstar all have incredibly insufficient firepower.

Really can't take statements like that seriously in a world where Gauss Rifles, Clan DHS, and Clan ERPPCs exist.

I'll obviously discount any designs that can't actually generate enough heat to be even close to net 0. Then again, ignoring those meant for recon or not having payload for armament, i don't really care for most designs that can't generate enough heat, they're either bad or boring usually.

I don't care for most dual+ Gauss designs at all, they're too boring. Powerful, yes, but often incredibly inefficient, especially if they're Clan designs since ERPPCs are basically better option always. The Mad Dog C is a perfect example, it is quite terrible configuration. Slap a pair of ERPPCs and extra weapons and few heat sinks there and it is far better.
I'll give pass to some like the Tian-zong since it uses stealth and dual-Gauss well while having extra weapons, or the Pillager's Capellan variants which sport stealth armor and extra weapons (the original Star League Gauss model is meh).

Hellstar indeed isn't very good in my opinion, spending far too much weight on heat sinks, if the Hellstar 2 didn't exists, i'd have to pull some to add some ER medium lasers. Hellstar 2 is a massive improvement with its TarComp, it is a 4/6 assault so it can afford a bit of heat to slow down, while the TarComp improves its prowess at range.

JagerMech DG is utter shite, it has way too little armor for its firepower, it will die before it can make good use of that.

The Fafnir gets a pass because it uses dual-HGRs, which have incredible firepower at close range, these are rare enough. But there are many other designs i'd rather use.

[deathfrombeyond]

So, for the sha yu 2b, can I see an argument for replacing one of the er large lasers for a standard? Sure.

Both of them? No way.

[Empyrus]

I don't doubt your tactics.  I doubt them working 100% of the time.  Any amount of broken or concentrated terrain is going to slow you down.  The 2B simply can't take that much punishment.  The 6B is a little better off but not much.

I doubt my tactics always, and i usually don't bother to think ahead but live in the moment, just the way i roll. Way more fun that way.

Naturally terrain will dictate tactics. May need to do something else, whatever, the Sha Yu has options, might use it as a TAG platform if nothing else. Plus i very much intent to have something that will attract more attention than the Sha Yu, stealth's just an insurance.

So you are abandoning your earlier statement and/or expanding off that there is little sense in carrying weapons with smaller ranges that carry stealth systems at this point (?).

No? I like ER lasers because they offer range but also good short range brackets, i can use either to my advantage depending on the situation.
Stealth offers options: on for long range sniping, on while approaching to close range or getting away but off while attacking, on for additional protection from other foes (am i being shot from far away?). Stealth is flexible, especially when additional ECM rules are in play.
The Sha Yu has flexible weapons with flexible armor.

To this point BV hasn't been a point in this discussion and it is going to go off the rails if we dive into the full depth of it here.  So much so it would require another thread.  So outside of the BV bubble there are sound reasons for it which can easily start and stop the positive step of forcing you into making what may end up be poor firing decisions and not be excessively slowed down in combat by them.  The other benefits to damage are just gravy.

Fine, no BV.
No TSM either here though, since the Sha Yu is what it is. I certainly wouldn't be retrofitting TSM to most designs, logistical and economical issue, and possibly a maintenance one to boot.

[Caedis Animus]

I don't care for most dual+ Gauss designs at all, they're too boring. Powerful, yes, but often incredibly inefficient, especially if they're Clan designs since ERPPCs are basically better option always. The Mad Dog C is a perfect example, it is quite terrible configuration. Slap a pair of ERPPCs and extra weapons and few heat sinks there and it is far better.
I'll give pass to some like the Tian-zong since it uses stealth and dual-Gauss well while having extra weapons, or the Pillager's Capellan variants which sport stealth armor and extra weapons (the original Star League Gauss model is meh).

Hellstar indeed isn't very good in my opinion, spending far too much weight on heat sinks, if the Hellstar 2 didn't exists, i'd have to pull some to add some ER medium lasers. Hellstar 2 is a massive improvement with its TarComp, it is a 4/6 assault so it can afford a bit of heat to slow down, while the TarComp improves its prowess at range.

JagerMech DG is utter shite, it has way too little armor for its firepower, it will die before it can make good use of that.

The Fafnir gets a pass because it uses dual-HGRs, which have incredible firepower at close range, these are rare enough. But there are many other designs i'd rather use.

-I don't see how something that literally has no heat concerns, little ammo concerns, and can fire from extreme ranges can be classified as 'ineffecient' compared to something that overheats like someone undergoing a hot flash in Qatar on a 70% humidity summer day while coated in three thermal blankets.

- I do agree the C would be better with two ERPPCs, but the C's still got considerable firepower and the movement speed to dictate its distance against IS units. Slowing it down by making it crap the bed out of heatstroke would just make it worse.

- I feel like you don't understand what made the Hellstar Standard so good. It's the fact it can put four headcaps, a turn, downrange and it absolutely does not have to stop firing. Ever. It might have to slow down sometimes, but unlike the 2, you don't have a fourth ERPPC just for show.

- Jagermech DG is why you have screening forces. It's a Gauss Sniper, so why you'd think it's appropriate to have it anywhere near the fight it's supporting to the point of where its armor is a real concern is completely beyond me.

EDIT; I'm not terrified of overheating, by the way. Most of my favorite 'mechs rely on bracket firing or overheating (Black Knights Ian and Ross, Banshee 8S, Berserker D4) or simply fire obscene amounts of lead/plasma downrange (Fafnir 6U and Peacekeeper 1B). But I think considering a design being 'inefficient' despite having an incredibly efficient cooling setup and providing consistent, considerable, and unblemished firepower is a garbage assessment.

[Empyrus]

Eh. If it gets unlucky/focused, yeah, but that's why we have screening forces.

The problem with the Gauss Jager is that it is relatively slow and has poor armor yet a lot of firepower, it becomes focused quickly and easily because "why not kill it because it is easy and dangerous"? At least that's how it goes for me. And it is what i do.

I'll take something else for the battle value.

[Caedis Animus]

The problem with the Gauss Jager is that it is relatively slow and has poor armor yet a lot of firepower, it becomes focused quickly and easily because "why not kill it because it is easy and dangerous"? At least that's how it goes for me. And it is what i do.

I'll take something else for the battle value.

If the other player's any good, you'll get punished for it in kind.  :D

[Empyrus]

-I don't see how something that literally has no heat concerns, little ammo concerns, and can fire from extreme ranges can be classified as 'ineffecient' compared to something that overheats like someone undergoing a hot flash in Qatar on a 70% humidity summer day while coated in three thermal blankets.

OK, maybe inefficient is wrong term, but for a game about giant robots duking it out and heat is part of the game design, freezer designs feel like they're part of some other game, not BattleTechy enough. Not fun, and not-fun is bad.
EDIT Admittedly in-universe that isn't necessarily bad design.
At very least a design should be using its heat capacity when it can. Hot environments, i'll just reduce rate of fire but i'll like having extra for the moments when i need something dead now. True, a freezer design can keep up its max rate of fire constantly anywhere anytime, but where's the fun in that? Boring as hell. Plus they can't ever take fun risks like alpha strike that can shut them down.
If i want something with no heat concerns, i'll use vehicles.

- I feel like you don't understand what made the Hellstar Standard so good. It's the fact it can put four headcaps, a turn, downrange and it absolutely does not have to stop firing. Ever. It might have to slow down sometimes, but unlike the 2, you don't have a fourth ERPPC just for show.

I perfectly understand what makes it good. I just don't agree that it is good-good. Plus i have issue in principle with super-optimized 'Mechs, and the Hellstar is the example of optimization among canon 'Mechs. I'm not sure the 2 can be called as optimized, but it sure as hell is far more interesting.

[Greatclub]

My phrase for Hellstar, Rifleman IIC and similar is noob-hammer. They are, however, beatable. The current BPV formula isn't kind to them, among other things.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, the big problem with the Hellstar or Rifleman IIC is that they're just really boring to play: you march it into position, then hammer the Alpha Strike button every round.

[Brakiel]

Running a little hot is fine, especially for hit and runners or bracket builds. But I'm baffled by mechs where there's no firing pattern which could make overheating useful, like the Warhawk Prime. The Warhawk's 20 heat sinks mean it already runs warm just firing 3 ERPPCs. The fourth one is just dead weight. It can't fire without a fairly decent risk of failing an ammo explosion or shutdown roll. Even if avoids either of those two outcomes, it still basically has to sit there doing nothing thanks to -4 MP and +3 to hit.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That's probably why it's so rare to see the Masakari Prime in games.  Most people seem to take the C, followed by the A and D.

And while we're on that mech, what the heck is with the B?  Two SRM 6 pods sharing five tons of ammo.  What the heck?  At no point should you have a mech where the tonnage devoted to ammo exceeds the tonnage devoted to the weapons used to fire that ammo, with a possible exception allowed if it's a single SRM 4.

[Ruger]

That's probably why it's so rare to see the Masakari Prime in games.  Most people seem to take the C, followed by the A and D.

And while we're on that mech, what the heck is with the B?  Two SRM 6 pods sharing five tons of ammo.  What the heck?  At no point should you have a mech where the tonnage devoted to ammo exceeds the tonnage devoted to the weapons used to fire that ammo, with a possible exception allowed if it's a single SRM 4.

It does allow a great variety of alternate ammo types though, and is great for campaigns.

Ruger

[SCC]

And while we're on that mech, what the heck is with the B?  Two SRM 6 pods sharing five tons of ammo.  What the heck?  At no point should you have a mech where the tonnage devoted to ammo exceeds the tonnage devoted to the weapons used to fire that ammo, with a possible exception allowed if it's a single SRM 4.

You have to do this with some machine guns.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It does allow a great variety of alternate ammo types though, and is great for campaigns.

Ruger

How many ammo types were even available to it when it was introduced (both in and out of universe)?  Under Total Warfare rules it can use Infernos, but those weren't available to SRM 6 pods when TRO 3050 was written up.

The Clans don't have a huge amount of alternate munitions available to them in the first place, especially for SRMs: ARADs (developed long after the Masakari B was), Harpoon Missiles (hilarious, but why would you?), Heat Seeking (okay, given the number of Clan mechs that have ridiculous heat issues, these actually could make sense), or the ubiquitous Smoke rounds (rather dezgra for an assault mech, don't you think?).

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

You have to do this with some machine guns.

You do not, since machine gun ammo can be loaded in 1/2 ton increments.

[SCC]

You do not, since machine gun ammo can be loaded in 1/2 ton increments.

And some machine guns weigh half that.

[Empyrus]

Fortunately, most 'Mechs mount at least a pair of MGs, especially Clan 'Mechs.
Unfortunately, most Clan 'Mechs mount only a pair of MGs with full ton of MG ammo, the Mad Cat Prime comes to mind, as does the Gladiator Prime.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And some machine guns weigh half that.

Clan MGs weight .25 tons, yes, but since fractional accounting is no longer done it means that all Clan mechs that use machine guns do so in pairs.  There are still a few Clan mechs, as Empyrus notes, that mount full tons of ammo, but most of them were 3050 mechs that were designed before MG ammo could be mounted in 1/2 tons.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Running a little hot is fine, especially for hit and runners or bracket builds. But I'm baffled by mechs where there's no firing pattern which could make overheating useful, like the Warhawk Prime. The Warhawk's 20 heat sinks mean it already runs warm just firing 3 ERPPCs. The fourth one is just dead weight. It can't fire without a fairly decent risk of failing an ammo explosion or shutdown roll. Even if avoids either of those two outcomes, it still basically has to sit there doing nothing thanks to -4 MP and +3 to hit.

And yet the Prime has an LRM -10!! For no reason whatsoever! People would say ‘oh take alternate ammo like Smoke around a or Thunder LRM’s’ .... why bother when you you have FOUR ER PPC’s for cover.

[Empyrus]

The Masakari Prime embodies the Clan ethos of dueling pretty well i think. It has firepower to quickly end a battle, some overheating (OK, pretty large but a Clan Warrior needs a sauna every now and then) is a small cost for that. Not to mention due to Clan firepower, damage accrues quickly and having a spare weapon may be useful. And having dual-PPCs in arms allows for incredibly wide field of fire while retaining strong firepower on either side.
The LRM is useful for Thunder rounds (the Clans do use those even in trials and duels), or just subbing for one ERPPC when cooling is in order.

I never warmed to other Masakari configs. The A wastes heat sink capacity though it is pretty good otherwise, and the B's even worse in that regard before its excessive ammunition. The C's OK though i really wish it had ERPPC and LPL per arm rather than PPCs in one and the LPLs in the other, and ultimately it doesn't feel different enough from the Prime.
The F's funny and i kinda like it because of that, good consistent long-range firepower despite some WTF decisions (then again, it is canonization of MW4 Masakari, hence the weirdness).
EDIT Come to think of it, the E's kinda neat. Should use it sometime.

[Diamondshark]

In the hands of a MegaMek bot, for sure :flame:. Give it to your typical player and it will suck as they'll never activate the TSM. Give it to someone creative and aggressive...well, I've really surprised a few people who scoffed at it on the table.

Teach me your secrets, sensei.  :o

[massey]

The Masakari Prime can fire 3 ER PPCs one turn, and the next fire 2 of them plus the LRM-10.  It'll be heat neutral except for movement.  With torso twisting you've got 360 degree firepower with at least 2 ER PPCs.  And if you really really want to, you can shut yourself down by blazing away with everything, though I'd suggest waiting until your LRM ammo is gone before you do that.  While the 3 PPC/2 PPC + LRM combo will cause you to lose a movement point every other turn, I generally park Masakaris in heavy woods the first chance I get.

The Masakari B looks like it's designed for Solaris rules.  The time frame would be about right, the Solaris boxed set was published the year after TRO 3050, so maybe they were already working on it and knew what direction they were going.  Clan SRMs have a recharge time of zero, so in Battletech terms they'd be able to fire 4 times a turn.  The large amount of ammo, plus being way over-sinked would make sense if your SRMs were shooting so much faster.