Author Topic: Kickstarter Discussion Thread  (Read 15326 times)

pheonixstorm

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Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« on: 15 August 2018, 02:18:27 »
Bosefius, then start a KS thread and move this post to it as the first. *edit* forgot the please  ;D

Cubby, the best use for KS in terms of BT growth would be for new products that are high risk such as a Clan Boxset or a reinforcements box with both new cardboard stand-ins and the remaining classics that have not been released in plastic. CGL can be pretty sure it is worth the money to setup and sell, but it can be done easier and faster (with less overall risk) via KS. The same can be said for other new BT lines. If CGL wanted to start up a new Armada style game for the vast IS/Clan warship fleets, setup a KS with a set goal. If enough people bite you have a new product and possibly a few hundred extra boxes to show off at the cons to gather further interest to push future sales.

Now on to your regularly scheduled rumormill brought to you by Adrian and his amazing standups. :crazy:
« Last Edit: 15 August 2018, 03:08:22 by Bosefius »

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: 15 August 2018, 07:34:28 »
Now on to your regularly scheduled rumormill brought to you by Adrian and his amazing standups. :crazy:
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sadlerbw

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: 15 August 2018, 10:20:02 »
So, are we talking about the Standups here as well? Cause I am a huge fan of those being added.

I still vividly remember, as a kid, wanting to play BT, but being utterly unable to spend the kind of money it would take to buy a company of mechs...or even a lance really. Foldy paper stand-ups were what I mostly used in other games. I did own one or two Ral Partha fantasy figures for D&D-type stuff, but that was it. So, I am VERY sensitive to the cost of building up a playable amount of units for interested new players. Playing any form of BT with only two units gets dull fast, so having a variety of units to try out, without spending a ton of money, it a really useful feature in my opinion. Sure you could just look up stats and proxy with whatever you have lying around, but the full-color, correct art on the cardboard guys is, much more attractive and satisfying than a meeple with a piece of tape stuck to it that says "Marauder"

As for X-wing, the king of selling really pricey bits of plastic: X-Wing can get away with their pricing because they are basically selling Star Wars action figures with game rules attached. My own kids don't play X-Wing, but they DO own a couple of the minis because they thought they were just cool toys. They didn't even care that you could play a game with them, they just wanted the pretty Star Wars ships. They also have several clicky-tech mechs that they play with. Same sort of deal with those: they don't even care that they are minis for a game, they look so cool right out of the box that the mnis can stand on their own as toys.

I have also given the kiddos plastic lance-pack minis, as well as one or two metal IWM units. I even let them paint their own, thinking it would be fun. Well, they did have fun, but they still like the big clicky-tech mechs better. They prefer them to the point where, when they get a chance to play stompy robots with dad, they come downstairs with nothing but clicky-mechs in their hands. Why? Because they consistently look cool, they don't fall apart easily, and the paint jobs look better than what they can do. They aren't looking for an art project, they just want to play a game.

So, giving folks a way to get playing without requiring the investment in Minis seems like a great thing to me. Apparently others disagree.

Kovax

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: 15 August 2018, 10:28:02 »
Wouldn't it be simple enough to provide a .pdf file to print your own paper counters?  That takes a fairly trivial investment in artwork and no printing costs, and supports the basic box set and standard rule book with a wider variety of units.  On the other hand, it doesn't generate any revenue directly, only by boosting sales of the existing box set and/or rule books.

sadlerbw

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: 15 August 2018, 10:43:22 »
Wouldn't it be simple enough to provide a .pdf file to print your own paper counters?  That takes a fairly trivial investment in artwork and no printing costs, and supports the basic box set and standard rule book with a wider variety of units.  On the other hand, it doesn't generate any revenue directly, only by boosting sales of the existing box set and/or rule books.

You can kinda-sorta do that already if you know where to look. One of the free PDF's on the main bg.battletech.com site does have a page in the back with paper fold-ups. A forum member here has also made a rather extensive set of unofficial ones as well from the TRO art. However, you have to know where to find those, or even that they exist and you should be trying to look for them.

However, including the cardboard ones in the intro box doesn't require any looking up or doing anything extra, and the quality is at least consistent and not dependent on someone's home printer.

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: 15 August 2018, 11:07:16 »
A forum member here has also made a rather extensive set of unofficial ones as well from the TRO art.

Hi

Quote
However, including the cardboard ones in the intro box doesn't require any looking up or doing anything extra, and the quality is at least consistent and not dependent on someone's home printer.

I made the standups because there wasn’t anything that fullly suited my needs and were never designed to replace any official other product. For one I’m a functional illiterate with computers and can’t colorize stuff worth shit no matter how many gimp tutorials I read. The quality and not having to cut crap out are definite advantages

I’d buy a reinforcements 2.0 product but I don’t pretend I understand overall demand for such a thing

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: 15 August 2018, 11:54:47 »
I think the most important thing to remember for Kickstarters is . . .

For everyone you know of that succeeded there are hundreds if not thousands out there that failed.  Personally I only know of and have been involved in one that carried through- and it did a LOT of marketing and had digital goodies along with real goodies.  Which was Star Citizen which has still not quite delivered everything it promised but is pretty well along.  I also saw a bit about Dropfleet Commander which was a sequel/parallel game to their Dropzone Commander.  I do know that during DFC's prep/rollout the company end up being bought out though I do not know all the details. I have heard of a few more like Reaper Bones or RoboTech which all had problems along the road.

Cubby alluded to this, but you have to either have a employee who shepherds the whole thing to completion or hire a consultant-  what is funny is that kickstarters allow the average Joe to become a venture capitalist by social media organizing.  The same sort of well understood statistics for that will apply to kickstarting but be even further diluted by the reach of social media.

Can Catalyst kickstart a BT project?  Sure . . . should they?  Whole different question, and due to the company's size at this time my answer is no.

Only way I can see that change is IF we have a fan out there who deals with venture capital projects IRL who puts together the whole proposal & project and drops it in CGL's lap where all they have to do is pull the trigger if Topps OKs it.  Which brings up a whole other point, the legal restrictions or constraints CGL may operate under as a licensee.
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General308

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: 15 August 2018, 12:10:04 »
If I was catalyst I don't think I would do kickstarters for whole box sets.  But what I would do is the kickstarter for the minis in those box sets.  How many box sets get bought by existing players for no other reason?   I think you could help keep box sets in distrubition longer if you did that.

Cubby

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: 15 August 2018, 13:23:41 »
Cubby, the best use for KS in terms of BT growth would be for new products that are high risk

What was I was trying to get at before, is that I don't think there's any room for any products, KS or traditional production, that are high-risk. Everything must sell AND turn a profit (not the same thing, remember--the CMs sold relatively well) or have a reasonable chance of doing so. There is no bandwidth to spend on "let's give it a shot" products. Even if they fund, there has to be the personnel in place to produce them swiftly without incurring backer-enraging delays that will poison the well for further efforts.

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If enough people bite you have a new product

No, if enough people bite, you have to make a new product. And please believe the tolerance for eff-ups after Robotech will be zero.

More to the point: the core concern should not be creating new products to sell. It's creating new customers to sell them to to turn a profit. That led to my key question in the other thread, copied below:

Are there any examples of a legacy game line (let's say 20+ years, pre-Internet) which has launched a successful KS for a product aimed at new players?

And again, I'm really asking. Because those would be the models that management would need to learn from, both good and bad.

kickstarters allow the average Joe to become a venture capitalist by social media organizing.  The same sort of well understood statistics for that will apply to kickstarting but be even further diluted by the reach of social media.

Ding ding...KS only enables companies to seek VC. There still has to be a system and a plan in place to actually produce that product.

You might say, "well, but, you have money in hand now to solve problems that crop up." Sure, that's what Palladium thought too--we'll just vomit our KS cash onto production problems to make them go away. Oops.

If I was catalyst I don't think I would do kickstarters for whole box sets.  But what I would do is the kickstarter for the minis in those box sets.

If you were Catalyst, you wouldn't have the license to produce minis except in specific instances such as Box Sets or Lance Packs, because they don't. The minis license belongs to IWM. What sorts of specific instances might be covered? That requires a copy of the license agreement and possibly a law degree.
« Last Edit: 15 August 2018, 13:28:21 by Cubby »
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wolfspider

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: 15 August 2018, 13:24:34 »
I would like to see a Kick Starter for the remaining classics, perhaps done in a lance pack size box. And if it reaches a certain level perhaps even do the 16 original clan mechs put them in boxes very similar to the old Ral Partha boxes. I personally liked the direction that the combat manuals were heading just because for the first time I had guide lines to build a company/battalion/regiment to existing fluff.  If you want to pull some of the 40k crowd into battletech you need building guidelines. I think for a kick starter to work with CGL you would need one that has a limited scope.
16 classic mechs
16 clan mechs
(maybe the remaining combat manuals which would also include the 4 invading clans)
Just some ideas off the top of my head.
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: 15 August 2018, 14:33:06 »
Ding ding...KS only enables companies to seek VC. There still has to be a system and a plan in place to actually produce that product.

Which is why I said no they should not, and because of their size, realistically cannot put out a Kickstarter except in that one instance I offered- and really that is not CGL doing it but rather a fan production that will take the fan who puts all the information together months.

The suggestions that appear on forums are backwards-  while interest in a product is good IMO you need to know all the specifics before you present it.  Like Cubby said, aside from just doing the fun raising you have to do market research (not anecdotal evidence) of what has interest or can get the most sales beyond the kickstarter- basically you are using the kickstarter for the product's capital investment.  So the project manager gets the product designed, layout/packaging of product, finds who will produce the product, how much it costs to get the product moved & stored before getting to the backers & selling locations, marketing & advertisement to attract backers and once all that is plotted out comes up with the price point.  THEN with a proposal in hand you go get the cash, which generally to get the needed level means whoever is running the project will also be spending a lot of time working media- livestreams, interviews, press releases, etc.

I will certainly applaud anyone who invests the time and energy putting together such a comprehensive project to hand over to CGL but to repeat- outside of that I do not see a Kickstarter happening for BattleTech.
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pheonixstorm

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: 15 August 2018, 15:28:06 »
Who was responsible for the Shadowrun KS??

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: 15 August 2018, 17:01:27 »
Who was responsible for the Shadowrun KS??

Lynnvader Studios.
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: 15 August 2018, 17:31:00 »
X-Wing can get away with their pricing because they are basically selling Star Wars action figures with game rules attached.

You make that sound as if it helps somehow.
It doesn't.
Because the problem will still be: how do we get someone who is spending $ on StarWars to *instead* spend it on BT? The problem of BT's success dramatically got worse with the success of SW. Not better.
It's not like there's disposable income that's *NOT* being spent right now because there is lack of awareness of BT. Every gamer who wants to spend $XX is spending it *right now*. On something.

So you have to think in terms of competition. And telling me there's a ludicrously popular IP out there selling stuff in roughly the same segment we're selling in to is a *problem*.

The solution is just ignore Paul.

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: 15 August 2018, 17:43:32 »
What was I was trying to get at before, is that I don't think there's any room for any products, KS or traditional production, that are high-risk. Everything must sell AND turn a profit (not the same thing, remember--the CMs sold relatively well) or have a reasonable chance of doing so. There is no bandwidth to spend on "let's give it a shot" products. Even if they fund, there has to be the personnel in place to produce them swiftly without incurring backer-enraging delays that will poison the well for further efforts.

No, if enough people bite, you have to make a new product. And please believe the tolerance for eff-ups after Robotech will be zero.

More to the point: the core concern should not be creating new products to sell. It's creating new customers to sell them to to turn a profit. That led to my key question in the other thread, copied below:

Are there any examples of a legacy game line (let's say 20+ years, pre-Internet) which has launched a successful KS for a product aimed at new players?

And again, I'm really asking. Because those would be the models that management would need to learn from, both good and bad.

Ding ding...KS only enables companies to seek VC. There still has to be a system and a plan in place to actually produce that product.

You might say, "well, but, you have money in hand now to solve problems that crop up." Sure, that's what Palladium thought too--we'll just vomit our KS cash onto production problems to make them go away. Oops.

If you were Catalyst, you wouldn't have the license to produce minis except in specific instances such as Box Sets or Lance Packs, because they don't. The minis license belongs to IWM. What sorts of specific instances might be covered? That requires a copy of the license agreement and possibly a law degree.

I am aware what they can produce on the minis is limited.  I am just stating they should have a way for people to buy the box set minis without having to pay the box set.  Don't think either of  us know exactly what they can or can not do.  But  it seems to me they could find away to have the box set minis that they already produce sold to players that just want those.  I wouldn't suggest them doing lance sets on there own because those did not sell well.

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: 15 August 2018, 17:44:27 »
Are there any examples of a legacy game line (let's say 20+ years, pre-Internet) which has launched a successful KS for a product aimed at new players?

And again, I'm really asking. Because those would be the models that management would need to learn from, both good and bad.

Ogre and Fireball Island comes to mind, but I'm not aware if they fit the 20+ year time line or not.

Lynnvader Studios.

Is that why the Catalyst Shadowrun page never promoted it?
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: 15 August 2018, 17:47:59 »

Are there any examples of a legacy game line (let's say 20+ years, pre-Internet) which has launched a successful KS for a product aimed at new players?

And again, I'm really asking. Because those would be the models that management would need to learn from, both good and bad.


Would Ogre Qualify?

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: 15 August 2018, 17:58:14 »
Would Ogre Qualify?

Craig

No. Not aimed at new players. Aimed at of players who had the disposable income for a big fancy box
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: 15 August 2018, 18:04:02 »
Purely unscientific, but many successful KS seem to be one-shot exercises - "we'd never publish this game unless ..." But the company involved moves on to the next new game, which is a different model than CGL is working to.

Then there's the "we can't do this major thing by ourselves", exemplified by Reaper's shift to Bones. The cost of shifting from spin to injection was too big for them to handle themselves, and the production cost of the rewards was directly reduced (massively) thanks to the investment. The apparent stalling of CAV:SO not having any connection to the KS.

And finally there's RTT. Which might, in some ways, be closer to a BT KS than most others.

So if IWM wanted to KS shifting to new production methods, that's a KS I'd back. But here's not the place to tell IWM what to do.

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: 15 August 2018, 18:28:38 »
You make that sound as if it helps somehow.
It doesn't.
Because the problem will still be: how do we get someone who is spending $ on StarWars to *instead* spend it on BT? The problem of BT's success dramatically got worse with the success of SW. Not better.
It's not like there's disposable income that's *NOT* being spent right now because there is lack of awareness of BT. Every gamer who wants to spend $XX is spending it *right now*. On something.

So you have to think in terms of competition. And telling me there's a ludicrously popular IP out there selling stuff in roughly the same segment we're selling in to is a *problem*.

You know, I've been relatively quiet on the forums about stuff like this, but what Paul is saying right is so bang on it is ridiculous.

I probably right now spend a few thousand buckaroos a year on Battletech. heck, I just got back from gencon, and I went down with a $0 Balance visa Card, and my balance RIGHT NOW is $1128. That's ELEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS spent at GenCon. Now sure not ALL of it is necessarily buying Game Stuff. Some is Food, etc. So If I break it down, I spent $343 on Food, and $785 on Gaming stuff. Some of that is for others, and some for me. But of that $785,  $626 was BATTLETECH ALL THE WAY.

Which means, I'm not spending the cash on other things. Not on STAR WARS Armada, not on D&D or other product. Because my Buckeroos are finite. It is the same with any other Gamer. If they only have X Buckeroos, then they can only spend X buckeroos, and it will be on what they play. All their friends play Tiddlywinks: The Final Cataclysm TM, I'm willing to bet that will be where they will spend their buckaroos.

And Marketing and advertising etc aside, if anyone can devise foolproof means of enticing someone to spend their free buckeroos on Battletech and not Tiddlywinks, well, that person will be sought out by more lucrative companies than CGL, that is for certain.
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: 15 August 2018, 21:45:14 »
So here is something to think about.

Robotech Tactics bombed. Partially from mismanagement, some from bad relationships, and a little more from trying to do too much.

Zombiecide on the other hand seems to push a new product purely on the results of its KS. The page is handled well, the rewards are nice, and the fans know they are getting a reskin of the same tired old game. Hell I bought into the latest Green Horde.

Now, what model should CGL follow??

First thing to figure out is how much it will cost and have a manufacturer lined up who can do the work. That can also be trusted and has good quality at a decent price (hint, not the Leviathans manufacturer). As long as you know how much it costs and how many products you will need to make a small profit you have half the battle won. The next part is how many EXTRA products will you have left over to sell after all the backers get their units.

Now lets look at it further. If you only reached your goal + 10% then all those extra boxes will likely become con exclusives. Now you own material that will need to be placed in storage, sold, or destroyed. Or perhaps loaned out to some poor sap that thinks licensing plastic minis will make them rich. But what do you do if you make more than the goal +10? At what point do you make another order to sell online or at the FLGS? It doesn't take an MBA to figure these things out. All you need is a concept and a phone. And time. If the Warhammer, Marauder, Pixie, and Wasp are an option you could add those to what is in the new box sets to make 12 plastic mechs and add 36 standups and call it a reinforcements box. That right there saves a fair chunk of money plus gives you an addon to new players after they buy into the first two boxes.

We all know that is only half the battle though. Once that leg work is done then comes the hard part. Putting the KS together, which can lead to spending actual money to get it professionally done. Not always needed though... CGL has a lot of talented freelance writers. Pretty sure they could use the extra work.

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: 15 August 2018, 21:51:47 »
Well hopefully CGL has completed the first step: Keeping the beginner box set(s) in supply. Beyond that changes would require major changes to how CGL conducts business, probably the biggest is the flying in of a limited number of something for GenCon, but somehow never enough.

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: 15 August 2018, 22:50:32 »
I would like to see a Kick Starter for the remaining classics, perhaps done in a lance pack size box. And if it reaches a certain level perhaps even do the 16 original clan mechs put them in boxes very similar to the old Ral Partha boxes. I personally liked the direction that the combat manuals were heading just because for the first time I had guide lines to build a company/battalion/regiment to existing fluff.  If you want to pull some of the 40k crowd into battletech you need building guidelines. I think for a kick starter to work with CGL you would need one that has a limited scope.
16 classic mechs
16 clan mechs
(maybe the remaining combat manuals which would also include the 4 invading clans)
Just some ideas off the top of my head.

I think to add appeal to a "Reinforcement" style box set with 16 plastic Battlemechs you could include 2-4 new maps, and additional 16 cardboard Battlemechs (maybe the Star League designs), more new design cardboard terrain pieces, a cardboard map scale Leopard Dropship, and maybe a cardboard sheet with vehicles & infantry. This would give players enough new stuff to make it extremely worthwhile to purchase.
« Last Edit: 15 August 2018, 22:58:44 by Highball »
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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: 15 August 2018, 23:50:24 »
So aside from a kickstarter to buy IWM so the holder of the miniatures game license could actually make money selling the miniatures for the game... :)

Anyway, if the whole focus of the BT line right now is, “bring in new players”, then I will admit Kickstarter may not be the best idea unless you were planning to make a stand alone board game that just used BT as a skin.

There are a couple reasons I suggested it for another combat manual: First, they already made two of them, so there is probably a pretty good idea how much it would cost to produce another, and what sort of resources it would take. This isn’t some new idea, it’s just going through a production cycle CGL already knows how to do.

Second, all indications are that people did buy the books, so there is at least some idea of what sort of market interest there could be for the other popular factions. Maybe CM: Niops Association would be an unknown, but I’m pretty sure Davion and Steiner should see similar interest to Kurita.

Third, while faction books may be questionable when everyone pays the same price for them, if you give the faction ‘Whales’ a chance to spend a couple hundred bucks to get their last name slapped on some random Major, you don’t need to move the same number of units to turn a profit. Stretch goals don’t have to be hard to execute. Things as simple as getting a copy signed by the author for an extra $10 or $20 can work.

Finally, in my opinion, the CM series was a perfect ‘What next?’ Product for the line. So, folks got their box set and picked up BMM or whatever, and they want to dig a little deeper. There is IWM for all the minis you could want, but what about CGL products? Well, I think the CM’s were a great place to point people. See that big map? Want to play the purple guys? Here, get this book and it tells you all about them, gives you an easy way to build a force that has their flavor without having to look up rules or tables in three other out-of-print products, and it looks way, way better than the old house books. I thought the CM series made sense as the next place to get money from new customers once the box set or whatever set the hook. They were up to modern standards, they were concise compared to a lot of older material, and they could be purchased outside of EBay. So yeah, they aren’t a product to bring a new body to the table, but they did seem like a great second step for new players to take.

All that put together, and Kickstarter seemed like it could be a useful way to address potential problems that came up in making the first two. I get it that you need to bring new players in, but Keeping them as fans in also important. Maybe they don’t have the widest appeal individually, but as a set I still think the CM series would make a great up-sell for anyone who ends up wanting to buy more than just a single box set.

I’m not saying anything CGL is dong is wrong. Hell, I think a their work on the fiction is a great idea, and I don’t have an unkind word to say about the new box sets. However, as much as I personally am looking forward to IlClan, it isn’t exactly a straight shot for a new player to jump from the box sets to IlClan. I’m not saying don’t put out IlClan (please, please do put it out!) but it isn’t really a ‘bring in new players’ sort of product, and I’m not sure, of the things mentioned at the What’s Up at GenCon, what is. Look, I like the direction things are moving from BMM, to the box sets, to getting the core rulebooks back in print. I trust that there is a plan...I just thought the CM series was part of that plan as the stepping stone for new people after the box sets. Personally, I’d like to see the series revived, but, my desires aside, I don’t see what is supposed to replace the CM’s.

As for kickstarters for old games that were successful...I’m not sure. I wasn’t thinking of kickstarting something that big. I was thinking of it as a way to better tap the whales in the audience. That said, I know of several video games from the 90’s that got successful sequels. I also know of some non-board game properties that have been turned into board games that seem to be successful. There is a recent one that turned the old Homestar Runner short about Trogdor the Burninator into a board game. I know the Street Fighter game got funded almost entirely because people wanted the awesome minis that came with it. I don’t think anyone even cared about the game. I never played Ogre, so I didn’t know about that one, but I think it fits. I’m pretty sure someone did kickstarters for Blood Bowl as well. Don’t recall if they were mega successes or not, but I think they funded.

EDIT: Dear god, I really can’t shut up, can I! Sorry for the wall of text.

Greatclub

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: 16 August 2018, 00:06:18 »
the paper standees. There's something you could do if it was a PDF product.

I don't know if you've ever used some of fat dragon's pdf papercraft terrain, but on a lot of them you can click boxes on the first page of the PDF to re-color things, add things, remove things...

So if you want wolf dragoon alpha regiment, click grey, red trim, & logo. Then you print the page. The logo & scheme wouldn't be in the right spot for most units, but that's excusable. Combine with art that didn't look donkey (Sorry artists of the old reinforcements box) and you could sell them by TRO.

Valkerie

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: 16 August 2018, 01:23:10 »
I will say this for the Combat Manuals: they sold me on coming back to the game via Alpha Strike.  I was out for a long time, and when I did come back (and tried to drag my stepson with me) it was through classic BT.  It was what I knew.  But it wasn't selling either us of on it.  I had forgotten how long games could take, and my stepson is a product of the era and saw the game as too clunky and slow to really enjoy it (he liked the concept).

Cue Alpha Strike.  Much more to our liking, and we can throw around more minis in less time.  I decide to dig deeper and get both existing CMs.  In short order, I'm rehooked on the BTU and buying every last TRO and sourcebook I can get my hands on.

The Combat Manuals really drew me back in.  Regardless of whether or not they come back, this is the kind of reaction CGL wants to see from their products.  For new or returning players.  Either is growing the player base.  A Kickstarter campaign wouldn't have drawn me back in three years ago.  But some well done product did. :thumbsup:
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StoneRhino

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: 16 August 2018, 04:32:16 »
You make that sound as if it helps somehow.
It doesn't.
Because the problem will still be: how do we get someone who is spending $ on StarWars to *instead* spend it on BT? The problem of BT's success dramatically got worse with the success of SW. Not better.
It's not like there's disposable income that's *NOT* being spent right now because there is lack of awareness of BT. Every gamer who wants to spend $XX is spending it *right now*. On something.

So you have to think in terms of competition. And telling me there's a ludicrously popular IP out there selling stuff in roughly the same segment we're selling in to is a *problem*.

That seems like a massive assumption that everyone who would be interested in Battletech is tapped because they are investing every dollar into SW games. Currently, that may be entirely possible due to the spectrum of games that Starwars has out right now covering small fighter battles to large scale space battles with Armada. I know that there are 2 ground combat games, though one appears to be a board game. However, the assumption is unlikely to be true as we can look at a few things that suggest it to be untrue.

1. We have seen additional Starwars based games roll out over the years since the release of X-Wing. People are buying these additional games.
2. 40k and Warhammer are still selling. They are still rolling out new boxes for both games.

These two points cover at least 6 different game systems within two dominant IPs in gaming. Each game system uses unique models. There is no using 40k minis with Warhammer, the same is true of SW games. On top of these 6 systems with unique minis we also see several mini systems within GW's lineup.

This of course ignores all other games that are available and have existed for some time. Since these other games exist, and that there are several systems covered by 2 IPs, there appears to be room for growth both within the 2 major IPs and other game systems. How much potential growth exists is a question that should be asked, but we have seen within the past 5 years significant growth within just those 2 IPs.

That is not to dismiss the message behind your post. I have encountered several people that "love" Battletech and played in the 90s, but suggest that they cannot invest money into another game. This may or may not be true. If you are an established player in one game then you do not really feel the pressure to add to your collection in the same way that a new player does. This can allow the person to divert some of their funds for X game to get into Y game. I have yet to play it, but I have diverted some funds from BT to 40k. The investment was broken down into manageable pieces.

The reason I have not played 40k yet is that I do not have:
1. Time to play, this past 1.5 years have been crap and have not played BT in a year
2. Time to paint enough 40k minis to play what is an average "small" game
3. I have not had the time to assemble said 40k minis

Some people may have more time then money, in which case they simply would not be able to secure enough minis for such a game. With Battletech, the game potential for a small investment to be enough to get someone into some games has been true for as long as I can remember. If someone simply bought a rules book as a required investment and printed paper playing pieces most people would not have an issue. Assuming someone did, a starter box or a few AS lance packs would have gotten someone into the game for $100 or less. Those 8 minis would likely have at least 5 variants each , I'm looking at you Shogun for bringing down the average, and with skill modifications the new player could increase the power of the 8 minis that they have if they are facing players with larger forces. This would give them a chance of getting into most games without an issue.

What seems to be needed is product presence, meaning advertising and stuff stocked on those shop walls. Add in a physical game pressence by having players go to the shops to game will help increase the attention of the game, and in turn the chances that CGL will make a dollar from new players getting into the game at some level. With that said, I think the small introbox that is coming out is the best move as it limits the amount needed to get started, which is similar to GW's small intro boxes. However, unlike GW's intro box just a small $20 investment into a Lance Pack would cover most of the needs of the new player. New GW players still need at least another $100 of stuff to get into most games and I know people are going to shout that is insanely low for GW prices and is a lot more. Either way, what is needed is small boxsets that help get players into the game on the cheap, but avoids having the established players from consuming them all. Lance packs seemed to help curb that problem.

FredrikR

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: 16 August 2018, 04:57:38 »
Second, all indications are that people did buy the books, so there is at least some idea of what sort of market interest there could be for the other popular factions. Maybe CM: Niops Association would be an unknown, but I’m pretty sure Davion and Steiner should see similar interest to Kurita.

Also, the often quoted problem of sales velocity should be significantly reduced - production only commences if you have sufficient funds (sales) to recoup the initial investment. Assuming the cost involved was accurately estimated (there's always that bit isn't there) at least. And tacking on some extra print copies, to be routed to distributors and the Catalyst store, should require less strain on the coffers than footing the entire production bill in advance and then waiting for sales to trickle in.

And not least, if the Kickstarter fails, maybe Catalyst can ask people to finally SHUT UP about certain products.   ;D
Ie "You had your chance and there wasn't enough interest, so stop nagging us about the CMs already!"

(For the record, I loved the CMs)
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Charbok

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: 16 August 2018, 05:57:41 »
I'd back a Kickstarter for Battletech in a heartbeat, if it were for, say, a full spread of classic minis, or plastic Clan mechs.

There's an excellent podcast series on Role Playing Public Radio called Game designers workshop where two indie RPG designers tell their stories about developing their games, including a truly excellent episode about running a successful kickstarter campaign.

They point out one of the biggest pitfalls, that's really exemplified by RRT and Chaosium's Horror On The Orient Express - trying to do too much with what the project is, and the horrors of shipping.

A small scope project,like a single combat manual, might be a more reasonable initial project, especially if the physical rewards were limited to a POD copy of the book fulfilled by DTRPG.  While not necessarily being exactly what I want right now, a successful smaller KS would give CGL good experience with managing a campaign with fewer moving parts (Chinese Miniature molding companies, international shipping fulfillment, etc).

While I'd back a CGL KS for minis in a heartbeat, I'd be ready for heartbreak. There's a lot that can go wrong even when you make a big pile of cash, and without some successful KS experience, I'd be a whole lot less likely to throw a bunch of money at a big "shoot the moon" project .

Paul

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Re: Kickstarter Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: 16 August 2018, 06:01:37 »
That seems like a massive assumption that everyone who would be interested in Battletech is tapped because they are investing every dollar into SW games.

????
I don't know how, but you totally misunderstood me.
What I'm saying: currently Johnny Player is spending what he wants on gaming materials. Let's say that's $100.
Let's say he's currently spending all of that on SW right now.
What I say we need to do: compete! We need to get Johnny to spend some of that $100 on BT.

We need to get on Johnny's radar. He needs to know about BT, and he needs to see something he wants to give a try.
That means being competitive to SW and WH40k visually.
Books won't do it, no matter how pretty. Cardboard standees sure as hell won't do it.


Quote
Since these other games exist, and that there are several systems covered by 2 IPs, there appears to be room for growth both within the 2 major IPs and other game systems.

I'm not following your logic here.
You think there's a significant amount of players out there who want to play mini games (ground or space is totally irrelevant), but who currently do not? That's interesting if true, but since SW IP and marketing didn't reach them and pull them in, I assure you, we won't neither.
The only traction we can get is seeing some of Johnny's $ go our way. Target players who exist right now, not some mythical person with money who wants to spend it on gaming, but somehow isn't yet.


Quote
With Battletech, the game potential for a small investment to be enough to get someone into some games has been true for as long as I can remember.

It hasn't made us a giant of gaming, has it?
BT needs to attract people willing to put down money.
The guy who buys a beginner box, and then DLs a bunch of PDFs online for free: whatever.
Guys who show up to play a game and have fun with your group, but who haven't bought a single damn thing since 1993: they're irrelevant.


Quote
What seems to be needed is product presence, meaning advertising and stuff stocked on those shop walls.

I assure you: CGL doesn't have the money to buy the kind of advertising that would make a difference.


The solution is just ignore Paul.

 

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