'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech

[Wildonion]

You know, there is a good reason I have heard the 3050 heavy omnis described as the Timber Wolf and those other designs that are like the Timber Wolf but worse.  Logically, there is really no reason to use any of the others when you have the gold standard on hand, although the Summoner is not too far behind.

Completely agree, it just sucks to see it stated over and over again. The Timber Wolf is really the pinnacle in so many ways and it kind of looms over ant discussion of other Clan heavies. Especially when it is the poor Hellbringer. It is almost like we need a caveat for these kinds of topics. "Barring the Timber Wolf, X is actually pretty good!"  :(

[Scotty]

That's generally why bringing up the Timber Wolf in any XotW thread annoys me.  Of course we know the Timber Wolf is good.  Nor, for this article, do we care.  It's an examination of the capabilities, uses, and downsides to a particular 'Mech, Vehicle, Battle Armor, or what have you.  Coming in with "But the Timber Wolf is better" is threadjacking at best, and deliberate trolling at worst.

[cold1]

The Hellbringer, like many others, has been surpassed.  In 3050 it killed EVERYTHING the IS had and was a murder machine.  Stuff just caught up with it.

[Diablo48]

Completely agree, it just sucks to see it stated over and over again. The Timber Wolf is really the pinnacle in so many ways and it kind of looms over ant discussion of other Clan heavies. Especially when it is the poor Hellbringer. It is almost like we need a caveat for these kinds of topics. "Barring the Timber Wolf, X is actually pretty good!"  :(

That's generally why bringing up the Timber Wolf in any XotW thread annoys me.  Of course we know the Timber Wolf is good.  Nor, for this article, do we care.  It's an examination of the capabilities, uses, and downsides to a particular 'Mech, Vehicle, Battle Armor, or what have you.  Coming in with "But the Timber Wolf is better" is threadjacking at best, and deliberate trolling at worst.

I have to disagree with this point of view.  You cannot examine a unit without considering its competition and opposition, and the Timber Wolf is very much both because as heavy cav omnis they fill the same roll with the same tech base.

[Scotty]

While that's generally true, it's also the kind of thing that is assumed by the very existence of the article and 'Mech.

Essentially, we know already.  It doesn't need to be beaten into the ground.

[Wildonion]

I have to disagree with this point of view.  You cannot examine a unit without considering its competition and opposition, and the Timber Wolf is very much both because as heavy cav omnis they fill the same roll with the same tech base.

I agree that you do need to consider the competition, but in an environment where one design really does rule over all others there really isn't any reason to bother bringing that one design up at every opportunity. I think it is assumed that most of us know that nothing trumps the Timber Wolf in the heavy cav department. Arguably, nothing trumps the damn thing in the heavy department!

I would rather that we focus on what the machine in question can do, as this is not a general comparison thread. This is a 'Mech of the Week article. We should be keeping our eye on the star and talking about what we can do to maximize its potential.

[Diablo48]

I agree that you do need to consider the competition, but in an environment where one design really does rule over all others there really isn't any reason to bother bringing that one design up at every opportunity. I think it is assumed that most of us know that nothing trumps the Timber Wolf in the heavy cav department. Arguably, nothing trumps the damn thing in the heavy department!

I would rather that we focus on what the machine in question can do, as this is not a general comparison thread. This is a 'Mech of the Week article. We should be keeping our eye on the star and talking about what we can do to maximize its potential.

Honestly, there are a number of designs that are at least close to the Timber Wolf so it is not an unreasonable comparison point.  They do all follow the same construction rules after all.

This really feels like an attempt to make the Hellbringer look better by ignoring the competition than anything else because it really does not stand up to anything but other lemons or lower tech designs.

[Hellraiser]

The Hellbringer is IMHO the #1 clan mech from 3050............. in the "Room to Improve" category.

Honestly, there isn't much you can do w/ something like the TimberWolf-Prime or A to get better, they are fairly optimized.

But NONE of the HellBringer configurations make much sense.  They ALL have huge problems.

Custom Pod Loads will work wonders for this mech turning it into nearly 30 tons of clan weapon death.

[iampoch]

The Hellbringer is IMHO the #1 clan mech from 3050............. in the "Room to Improve" category.

Honestly, there isn't much you can do w/ something like the TimberWolf-Prime or A to get better, they are fairly optimized.

But NONE of the HellBringer configurations make much sense.  They ALL have huge problems.

Custom Pod Loads will work wonders for this mech turning it into nearly 30 tons of clan weapon death.

True. The Foxes tried to improve the design, and though they succeeded in some aspects,  I feel that the Savage Wolf is a different machine to be used at a much different role than the Timber Wolf. Same is true with the relationship between the Loki and the Loki II.

To be on topic, though, it would seem that currently, you can use the Loki in a headhunter unit, complementing BAs and Protomechs, at least that's how I use Lokis nowadays. They're no longer front line fighters, IMHO.

[SCC]

While it's an little off topic, the reason that the Timber Wolf is so good is that BT is a game of MANEUVER so anything moving 5/8 or better hits at sweet spot (6/9 would be a slight improvement, as it allows you to turn, but still) where you get more defense out of moving then you lose to inaccuracy caused by moving for you're base movement.

The Timber Wolf does this, and does it in a package that is both well armored AND carrying decent/proper weapons load out, it simply IS BT, in fact with the way the game plays at the higher levels it pretty much is all you NEED in a 'Mech

[Wildonion]

Honestly, there are a number of designs that are at least close to the Timber Wolf so it is not an unreasonable comparison point.  They do all follow the same construction rules after all.

This really feels like an attempt to make the Hellbringer look better by ignoring the competition than anything else because it really does not stand up to anything but other lemons or lower tech designs.

Really? Because I think we all know that the Hellbringer is a lackluster chassis. Heck, the opening lines of the article make it quite clear that this is not a machine that is thought well of. The goal isn't to trick people into believing that it is somehow a strong design by omitting mention of better ones. It is to talk about the design and how best to use it--and defeat it, of course.

Also, wouldn't it make sense to compare the design to its contemporaries? Most of the 'Mechs that existed during the time when the Hellbringer was first written were lower tech. Only other Clan opponents really showed how poor the chassis was, at least until the new IS stuff started rolling out in 3055. The new variants for the Hellbringer are merely attempts to keep pace with the better machines that are coming out, after all. The whole Clan idea of keeping waste to a minimum. It is not at all surprising that the design has aged like milk. (Which makes me so grateful for the Hel/Loki II.)

I fully admit to having a soft spot for the Hellbringer, but my reason for all of this comes from the fact that by saying "The Timber Wolf does this better.", we just stifle any discussion we could be creating. It discourages any sort of exploration into what could be done to make the most of a bad design in the face of simply picking the more optimized approach.

[Nahuris]

At the time that TRO 3050 was first released --- the retcon of 3039 hadn't been written yet. So, a good 90% plus of the opponent mechs that the Hellbringer would have had to face would have been 3025 machines... fielding single heatsinks, and based on a tech level that made the AC/5 a relevant weapon.

At that level, you can catch mediums and most lights... or at least stay in range long enough to do something.... as well as deal with infantry, or swarms of scorpion light tanks. You have enough firepower to seriously threaten the poster child of the day, the Warhammer, and as long as the shots didn't group tight, you even had a chance against mechs like the Awesome. Against the standards of the day, the Centurion, the Enforcer, the Wolverine (standard is an AC/5 version), or the Shadowhawk... this is a deadly machine. It was designed exclusively to fight these IS designs. Comparing it to a mech that has not only 10 tons on it, but also occupies one of the sweet tonnage spots is sort of like point out that a min/maxed character can do more than a standardly rolled character in other games.... as in, it's kind of a given. It doesn't require a whole lot of brain power to keep coming back with how a different design is better.... we know that.

What the Hellbringer was designed to bring to the table is the same as the Warhammer... a mobile weapons platform capable of destroying, or severely damaging an opponent of it's weight class, or lower. It can headcap. If both PPC's hit the CT on just about ANY inner sphere design of the time, it will go internal..... and it can likely go internal on a LOT of them in other locations in a single hit. Against the standard mediums of the day, it's a limb chopper.....and against it's own weight, it performs well. It devastates the Jagermech, it can control range and damage to wear down a T-bolt, and it can concentrate damage better than a Crusader, or Catapult......

So, against machines, designed to fight the clans, it fairs poorly. I expect that...... is it any real surprise that a clan design, facing an inner sphere design that was specifically built to counter clan machines, would do less well against that specialized opponent? The argument here seems to be that plate mail was useless in the middle ages, because modern guns defeat it..... at the time it was designed, the guns didn't exist. It's also like claiming that the heavy cavalry charge was worthless in the crusades, because later generations developed the machine gun..... I'm pretty sure a whole lot of forces on the receiving end of those charges would disagree.

The Hellbringer is a good machine to bring when you have little idea of what the other side has, and when used in the era that it was designed for. It was designed for the initial invasion, when the majority of what it faced were succession war forces. It has long range weapons, it has short range weapons, and it has anti-infantry ability. And considering how poor IS warriors, as well as their targeting systems (as emphasized via range) are, the light armor fits.....

Nahuris

[wantec]

While not a great in-universe explanation, you have to remember, almost all units are designed with game balance in mind. When the 3050 Omnis came out, they had to design them in such a way that there was some kind of fighting chance, even at 2-1 odds. Yes there are some that have few flaws (Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf, Warhawk, Stormcrow come to mind), but most of the early Clan units have some kind of flaw that can be exploited. Things like the arm mounted weapons of the Gargoyle, the side torso armor on the Executioner, the undersinked Nova, the light armor on the Firemoth or Hellbringer, etc. Each one provides a weakness that could be exploited if an IS force got lucky.

But the part I've enjoyed the most about these discussion and MotW articles has always been finding out different ways to effectively use units that aren't the standouts everyone knows that work in every situation.

[Headshot]

In comparison, anybody can win with a Timber Wolf. The true terrors are those who can win convincingly with Hellbringers on a regular basis.

Nope.
When you put the guy who can win convincingly with Hellbringers on a regular basis into a Timber Wolf, thats the true terror...

I don't think I understand.  The Hellbringer is by far a suboptimal chassis (worse than the lemons on the IS half of 3050, though?  Not a chance).

The only reason he's not worse than those IS lemons is that his weapons are Clantech.
If that isn't saying something...

[SCC]

No, you see the lemons in the IS part of the Original 3050 are presumably out of production and most have been converted over to something else, the same can't be said for the Hellbringer

[blackwizards]

I love my Hellbringers. I have a prime and an A variant. I actually much prefer the prime variant, that targeting computer with those ER PPCs is brutal. Because its got such a bad reputation its also ignored, so I'll often park it in some forests and snipe all game- by the time people realize they need to deal with it those medium lasers and SRMs are usually enough to finish off whatever walks its way.

The A variant I've only fielded once, but ERLL are more or less my favorite weapon in the game, so I'm generally a fan.

Completely agree, it just sucks to see it stated over and over again. The Timber Wolf is really the pinnacle in so many ways and it kind of looms over ant discussion of other Clan heavies. Especially when it is the poor Hellbringer. It is almost like we need a caveat for these kinds of topics. "Barring the Timber Wolf, X is actually pretty good!"  :(

For the record I will take Summoners over Timber Wolfs any day of the week. But I got into Battletech as a Falcon, so bias.

[Jellico]

No, you see the lemons in the IS part of the Original 3050 are presumably out of production and most have been converted over to something else, the same can't be said for the Hellbringer

Which is an interesting flaw in OmniTech we should discuss one day.

[jymset]

So now that RS 3145 NTNU is out, how do you feel the Loki G measures up?

[Savage Coyote]

When I get a chance to see it i'll have an opinion :)

[glitterboy2098]

So now that RS 3145 NTNU is out, how do you feel the Loki G measures up?

Loki G?

[Alexander Knight]

Loki G?

Stolen iHGR, iHLL, triple ERSL.  It's...unpleasant inside 15 hexes.

[Scotty]

Well, that sounds delightful.  22 point hit, 16 point hit, and a few tiny pinpricks at short range.  Not, perhaps, what I'd have done with it, but if you want concentrated pain, the only way to beat that is Ultra-20s, and that doesn't take such good advantage of the Hellbringer's base heatsinks.

[Diplominator]

Stolen iHGR, iHLL, triple ERSL.  It's...unpleasant inside 15 hexes.

With the number of Lokis the IS must have, those iHGRs aren't necessarily stolen. Sounds like a nasty variant.

[Trajan Helmer]

Nope.
When you put the guy who can win convincingly with Hellbringers on a regular basis into a Timber Wolf, that's the true terror.

What a way to ignore my point.

[Alexander Knight]

Nope.
When you put the guy who can win convincingly with Hellbringers on a regular basis into a Timber Wolf, thats the true terror...

I gotta be honest.  The Timber Wolf just doesn't scare me as an IS opponent.  Part of that is I know what to expect in general from a Timby.  Hellbringers?  I got no clue what's coming my way.

[SCC]

With the number of Lokis the IS must have, those iHGRs aren't necessarily stolen. Sounds like a nasty variant.

And the (i)HLL it also mounts?

[iampoch]

With the number of Lokis the IS must have, those iHGRs aren't necessarily stolen. Sounds like a nasty variant.

I can see CWX using this :-) did the Wolves and Falcons get any world with factories that manufacture the iHGR?

[Headshot]

Because its got such a bad reputation its also ignored,

Then you're fighting idiots.
The Hellbringer is your typical glasscannon, a hammer in an eggshell.
Ignoring it because of its "bad reputation" is the worst thing you could possibly do.

What a way to ignore my point.

I gotta be honest.  The Timber Wolf just doesn't scare me as an IS opponent.  Part of that is I know what to expect in general from a Timby.  Hellbringers?  I got no clue what's coming my way.

Cute. Whats stopping you from using the Timby like the Hellbie?
Same speed, same warload. All you have to suffer is twice the armor.


I think the problem is a difference in philosophy.
In my opinion, reasonable survivability beats damage dealing ability in priority. Reasonable meaning not at the cost of nearly everything else, see Great Turtle.
Thats my credo in just about every game i ever played.
When i'm designing a Mech, i start with maximum efficient armor.
When i'm building a base, i pull up enough defenses first to stop the early raids to protect the infrastructure.
When i'm leveling a char in a MMO, i concentrate on the defensive skills first. Whats the point of being able of dealing massive damage when i'm dead?
As an example, i was playing Everquest for more than ten years as a Monk. And i prided myself in my ability to survive pretty much everything. Even on a wipe, chances were i was the sole survivor, dragging the guilds corpses to a safe spot. Sure, the Rogue and the Berzerker had higher dps, but whats the point when they're dead half into the fight? Me, i could even survive the attention of the boss for short periods if the tank went down, long enough for the second tank to take over. And in the end, i dealt more damage than the Rogues and Zerkers, cause i was still alive!

The Hellbringer flies straight into the face of that philosophy.
Sure, there's that clannish Blaze of Glory thing, but wouldn't you rather have enough armor left after two downed Mechs to take on even a third?

[Alexander Knight]

Cute. Whats stopping you from using the Timby like the Hellbie?

Canon Configurations.

[Diplominator]

And the (i)HLL it also mounts?

Sea Foxes.

Aside from the fact that Sea Foxes are always the answer, some of the Mad Cat and Mad Dog IVs use iHLLs and they sell them to everyone.