Operation Revival OmniMech Review: Executioner (Gladiator)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I suppose that's possible, but given the Clans' disdain for physical combat it would be an odd choice.

[Jellico]

It is not about the Clan's choices. I theorize that the Clan's preferences were not solidified enough for them to be an issue for the designers.

It is like the whole highland burial thing. Someone saw a big mech with JJs and let their imagination get away from gameplay reality. Either that or someone was paranoid about losing mobility. Another over armoring trend I have noticed.

I mean for goodness sake. There is more armor on the legs than the CT. That is weirder than the side torsos.

[Hellraiser]

It certainly is odd.

Just taking the 48 points & spreading them equally would have resulted in 7(6) points per Torso/Arm/Leg location

+6/7/7/7/7/7/7 = 48

Instead we got 0-2-2-10-10-12-12

Slathered on the arms, with just enough on the Rear Side torsos to make them more than the Rear CT,  which is another odd fact to go with the Legs > CT issue.

My suggestion of 4-7-7-8-8-7-7 was just making nice even 5 point totals, but even the average spread of 6/7's would have been preferable to what we got.

But w/e, I guess it gives it character, as if a 4-8-4 Assault Omni didn't have enough character  :)

[Colt Ward]

Interestingly enough the physical stigma seems to have worn off by 3130s- at least among the Falcons and Bears.  The Bears who like physicals have to love the MASC/SC configs . . . medium mech mobility with 19 point kicks.  It can chase down meds and heavies with the shinguards to weather a response while their long range weapons pound on another light/med.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Absorbing so many soldiers from the former FRR into their ranks gave the Bears a sudden interest in melee attacks.  I mean, it led to the creation of an entire Galaxy who's unit power is "can take off guns to add a melee weapon to their mech."

[JadeHellbringer]

Freaking side torso armour

Anyone else get the feeling that this machine was supposed to operate in novas, with elementals acting as ablative armour? Although even that doesn't explain the back armour of 10/9/10.

Love the configs; most have nice kick. Love the mobility and character; it's more than the 'bag of guns' later omnis were. But the FREAKING front side torso armour.

Had one eat two arrow IV to the right torso yesterday.

My problem with this theory is that while we go off Battletech rules- in which case Elementals provide an extra 11 points of armor if you so desire- a Clan commander using his battle armor as armor for his Omnimechs is a commander looking to have a slab of pissed-off infantryman declare a Trial of Grievance. No one is going to look at a plan to use his Point of highly-trained, well-equipped, genetically-bred infantry as extra armor and agree to that. Never mind that the engineers and scientists who come up with a design reliant on that tactic are probably going to get used as Elemental target practice for their failures.

The side torsos are thin- it sucks, for sure, and any damage the Elementals take on the way in only helps the Executioner pilot for sure. And we can agree that the fact most configs carry their weaponry in the arms for the most part suggests that like many 3050 Omnis, it's designed to carry the kids into combat (see: Nova, Gargoyle, Adder, etc.). But that it's designed to carry Elementals as sacrificial armor, I'll have to argue that one. The Clans are a little weird, a lot violent, and have a very different outlook on the value of soldiers' lives, but they're not careless or stupid either.

[Jellico]

Absorbing so many soldiers from the former FRR into their ranks gave the Bears a sudden interest in melee attacks.  I mean, it led to the creation of an entire Galaxy who's unit power is "can take off guns to add a melee weapon to their mech."

That Galaxy had that attribute when it was a Kungsarme regiment. Just changed the rank pips.

[Colt Ward]

My problem with this theory is that while we go off Battletech rules- in which case Elementals provide an extra 11 points of armor if you so desire- . . .

But that it's designed to carry Elementals as sacrificial armor, I'll have to argue that one. The Clans are a little weird, a lot violent, and have a very different outlook on the value of soldiers' lives, but they're not careless or stupid either.

I thought the rules had adjusted to where if the Elementals take damage they drop off to prevent the flak-jacketing.

[Empyrus]

I thought the rules had adjusted to where if the Elementals take damage they drop off to prevent the flak-jacketing.

The current rule is that there's 50-50 chance of hitting a carried BA or the hit location, i think. Can't recall what happens if there's left-over damage.

[Colt Ward]

Not that, but if the BA riding DID take damage they would be forced to dismount so as to prevent the Omni from having 'disposable' armor.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Never mind that the engineers and scientists who come up with a design reliant on that tactic are probably going to get used as Elemental target practice for their failures.

I disagree.

Those engineers and scientists are going to end up assisting the elemental sibkos on the days they're learning grapples.

The Clans are a little weird, a lot violent, and have a very different outlook on the value of soldiers' lives, but they're not careless or stupid either.

Well, not that careless or stupid, anyway.

[BATTLEMASTER]

Yeah, even 100 ton Executioner doesn't have free mass for twin-Gauss rifles and everything else the "Executioner" is described to have. Only the Dire Wolf does.

I agree with this so much.  It would make sense for a die-hard Clan Wolf MechWarrior like Vlad Ward to pilot a 'mech designed by Clan Wolf and not something from the Ghost Bear touman.  Sure, the MUL might say that Vlad Ward's "Executioner" is actually an Executioner Omnimech, but I believe the MUL is incorrect :D

In MWO, I run all of my Clan Omnimechs with stock armor (yes, even the Hellbringer!), but I shift armor around since the game allows it.  In the Executioner's case, I certainly move some armor from the legs to the side torsos to bring them up somewhere between the arm and CT levels.

One question: Was BV a thing when the original Clan Omnis were introduced?

[Sharpnel]

I think it was called Combat Value when they came out which was a drastically different way of calculating combat effectiveness.

[Natasha Kerensky]

But that it's designed to carry Elementals as sacrificial armor, I'll have to argue that one.

Not the Elementals, just their empty battlesuits.  Extreme form of patchwork armor.

[Caedis Animus]

Not the Elementals, just their empty battlesuits.  Extreme form of patchwork armor.

That gives me the idea of supplemental armor autonomous drones that climb up to omnimech points and act as carried BA, but there for the express purpose of taking damage.

Almost sounds like something the Society would come up with.

[glitterboy2098]

I agree with this so much.  It would make sense for a die-hard Clan Wolf MechWarrior like Vlad Ward to pilot a 'mech designed by Clan Wolf and not something from the Ghost Bear touman.  Sure, the MUL might say that Vlad Ward's "Executioner" is actually an Executioner Omnimech, but I believe the MUL is incorrect :D

This is a long running arguement. personally i agree. a lot of attention was given to giving mechs a custom name that would appear on sensors for that trial. Phelan had "Lone Wolf", Natasha had "Widowmaker", etc. that Vlad would come rocking the same Omni as Phelan, customized and given a nickname, certainly fits what we got in the book.
but the semi-official line has been it was an Executioner/Gladiator battlemech, largely ignoring the impossible loadout at first then basically hand waving it away as "early installment weirdness"

sadly when asked Mr. Stackpole could not remember the details of what he'd intended.

One question: Was BV a thing when the original Clan Omnis were introduced?

no. in fact the existance of advanced technology optiions, and to a bigger extent Clan technology and omnimechs was part of the reason point based balancing systems were developed. first the "Combat Value" system tried in the old Tactical handbook, later the less buggy Battlevalue systems

[Fear Factory]

Ahhhh, the Clan Burrock designed OmniMech that the Bears took.

Alternate D is a guilty pleasure of mine.

[Greatclub]

I think it was called Combat Value when they came out which was a drastically different way of calculating combat effectiveness.

here: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Point_Value

First there was CEF, a semi-official system from a fanzine.
Then CV in 1994. It also was borked. It lasted a whole three years before replacement - take from that what you will.
BPV(1) was Maxamum Tech's 1997 system. At least two major revisions.
The current system is BPV(2) from Techmanual, in 2007. it's here: https://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/TechManual-BV2.1-Rev2017.pdf
Yeah, it got so reworked they had to errata the whole section

There are problems with the current system (Gladiator's too expensive for it's capabilities, dasher H is too cheap IMHO) but it's similar to Churchill's quote about democracy; the worst system, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time

00000

And yes, between the side torso armor and only having the three big guns, I don't think it's worth 2750 BPV. Problem (As I understand it) is that the weapons are multiplied by both MASC and jump jets, yet neither give reliable TMMs. Also the system dosen't account for the insane armour placement, just the # of points.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

MASC plus jump jets always give a unit with an artificially inflated BV since you pay full price for both despite the fact that the systems can't be used simultaneously.

[Colt Ward]

Fire Moth H has a weapons range of 3, its BV is fine . . . heck it is higher than it was- and JJ/MASC costs have dropped too.

[massey]

Here are some fun stats for you.

Original 3050 Gladiator.

400 XL Engine for 26.25 tons   (Pre-rounding nerf)
6 Ton Gyro
11 Tons Armor
1 MG
Total Tonnage when added up,  100

Armor layout = 9, 37/9, 20/8, 22, 28




Modern (Proper) Stats

380 XL, 20.5 Tons
4 Ton Gyro
13.5 Armor
2 MGs

Armor Layout  =  9, 37/9, 20/10,  32,  40



So yes, it had a too large engine, but its because it added up to 100 tons  (98 if you correct the gyro)

And yes, you can see that aside from adding 1/2 ton of MG's after fixing the Fractional Accounting issue, the remaining 2.5 tons went into Armor & it was slathered on the limbs almost entirely.


Would it have killed them to go   9,  40/10,  25/10,  30,  35   ???

Gaah!  No wonder I dismissed the Gladiator the first time I saw it.  I remember looking at the book and thinking "this mech sucks" and just put it out of my mind.  Then maybe 5 or 10 years ago I looked at the mech again and thought "how did I miss this?  This thing is awesome."

That explains it.

[SteelRaven]

So digging this one out of the forum graveyard as the Executioner keeps getting brought up in other subjects so I thought those discussion may be more appropriate here.

Last time I commented about this mech... wow, it wasn't even in MWO yet and now I have a freebie in my mechbay.

So what has changed sense? We have two new configurations.

TC was introduced in the Battle of Tukayyid. 2 Large Pulse Laser in the RA, a PPC in the LA, a total of 3 ER Small Lasers in the Torso along with a extra DHS, a Active Probe to spot those pesky Com Guard hiding in the bushes and a TC. More or less a all energy Prime which is less ammo dependent and less explode-y but also allot hotter with 17 DHS just managing most of the heat from your three big guns, not counting movement.

T was introduced in Rec Guide Vol. 9. The Prime's 2 ER Large Lasers are swapped out for a pair of ER Large Pulse Lasers and the Gauss Rifle is swapped a LB-10X and two tons of ammo. The 2 MGs remain because... reasons (yeah, artwork) but you also get ECM which is a nice addition.

Both configurations complement the existing Executioner's configurations quit well but at the same time, shows the mech hasn't age well unfortunately. At it's core, the Executioner was built to be a 95 ton mech that could compete with heavies in duels long before Ferro-Lamellor Armor or Heavy Gauss Rifles. It's far from a bad mech and can still lay down some hurt but there is allot more competition out there than there was in the 3050's for a 4/6(8) mech and being a Omni, you can't just swap armor or the engine. All the same, it's still fast enough and can carry a big gun.     

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Unfortunately, it can only carry a big gun, while most of its competitors can carry two or three.  Look at the Iron Cheetah, for example.

[Zeruel]

the unfortunate thing with the Exe is that it only checks the speed box of the three of firepower/speed/armour, and even then, it just barely has a speed advantage over other Assaults

so the reality is, there is no advantage to an Assault going fast if it doesn't actually use any of the other advantages afforded Assault 'Mechs: armour or weaponry

the armour box could have been a check except for that very odd placement on the side torsos...sure, the Exe has more armour on its arms and legs than a smaller 'Mech can carry, but I'm sure we can all agree that the most critical placement of armour is the torsos (after the head)

[BATTLEMASTER]

I think the Executioner needs to actively seek unfair fights to make up for its light side torso armor.  That or forget about it being an "assault" mech and call it a 95-ton cavalry unit.

Not all 'mechs greater than 75 tons need to assault, like how not all 'mechs under 35 tons need to scout.

[SteelRaven]

I think the Executioner needs to actively seek unfair fights to make up for its light side torso armor.  That or forget about it being an "assault" mech and call it a 95-ton cavalry unit.

Not all 'mechs greater than 75 tons need to assault, like how not all 'mechs under 35 tons need to scout.

The Executioner does makes more sense when you look at other 3050 Omnis and considering the mech was likely to be dueling a Summoner or Gargoyle in a Zel trail. Even in the Invasion it's scary enough to anything the IS had with a few exceptions (which may have been Fasa's intent) but ultimately, it is a very awkward machine.

[Luciora]

Still my favorite out of all 4 of the original 3050 omnis.  Something about it just charmed me, and now I'm wondering why it didn't have a cat based name because of the "ears"  you can even kinda look at the huge backpack as a tail of sorts.

[Jellico]

There are three basic branches to the Executioner.

The first was the snipers represented by things like the Prime and A. They harassed from long range and unlike a Warhawk or Dire Wolf could always get out of trouble. Perfect for facing the waves of Inner Sphere hordes.

The next was the brawlers. Started by the B and C, but only got good in the 3060s with the H, the G is arguably their ultimate representation. Not fast enough to get behind an enemy they were always risky. They worked by bringing short ranged weapons up to long range Mechs like Dire Wolves and hoping for the best.

The final branch are the dancers. The proliferation of Superchargers after the Jihad finally made the Executioner fast enough to get behind big Mechs. The firepower or a brawler could be placed where it would do the most good. Variants like the I eat Hellstar type Mechs for breakfast. They have to get lucky and breach a torso or get a head shot to survive an Executioner.

What is interesting is how little the armor matters. The branch where it matters most, the brawlers, is the evolutionary dead end. The snipers rely on not getting hit. The dancers only need enough armor to get close enough to land the killing blow. Over 30 years the Executioner has evolved to overcome its armor limitations. Of course more would be better, and the survival innovations blow BV through the roof. But I think it is fair to say that the Executioner has gone from a Mech no one would use in TRO3050, to a secret battle winner in 3067, to deadly in 3130.

[Colt Ward]

For all the Executioner F could be called a sniper . . . yeah, I danced against the 3 Warhammer 6Rs which had about 300 BV as a advantage.  Yeah, it was against the bot but I basically played in a stand of woods on a hill and broke down the 3 Warhammers; running, MASC/SC and jumping.  Using double blind, the woods could break LOS which helped me out when I would re-emerge into their sight.  Run along the woods, duck into light or heavy and fire at a Warhammer.  Jump over 3 or 4 hexes to be in heavy woods, keep firing, and then depending on heat & init I could jump behind the thick part of the woods to break LOS to the Warhammers . . . not sure what the Bot decided to do, but when I popped back out one turn I had a back shot on one of the two remaining Warhammers.

I am not sure the brawler set ups are still not useful, but probably not for dueling.  I think, in a meta/war environment they would be used as linebreakers.  If I am putting a force forward in a thrust to break a enemy defensive line, sending in one of those brawler configurations- like the Executioner D.  Get it close enough that it can rush the line and unload- it's weapons and particularly the SRMs can cause disruption to pave the way for the rest of that force to breakthrough.  Is it perhaps a suicide mission for that Executioner?  Sure, but that is not as much a problem among the Clans as it is the IS.

[Zeruel]

I think the Executioner needs to actively seek unfair fights to make up for its light side torso armor.  That or forget about it being an "assault" mech and call it a 95-ton cavalry unit.

Not all 'mechs greater than 75 tons need to assault, like how not all 'mechs under 35 tons need to scout.

I think this is really where the problems lie...

As Jellico put it, the Exe has 3 roles, some it excels at more than others, and it definitely is a finesse 'Mech, you can't use it like most Assaults...but then you have its Assault-class BV, and in smaller fights, it's harder to mask that monster, in duels you're most likely facing another Assault