BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst Game Labs Demo Team => Topic started by: Joel47 on 09 January 2016, 16:54:00
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In 2016, I'm hoping to fulfill several player requests. We're going to rotate eras.
- Jihad
- Republic of the Sphere
- Wars of Reaving
We've been playing in the Jihad era a lot lately, so this year those games will focus on some of the lesser-known battles. The formation of the Republic has a number of factions we don't normally include, and the Wars of Reaving will let us break out piles of Clan 'mechs.
Rules-wise, we'll be sticking mainly to the standard Battletech rules. I'll break out Alpha Strike for two or three large battles over the course of the year.
Finally, I'm still working on a new campaign. I'm struggling to reconcile player wants (customization, special pilot abilities, and constant force improvement) with the needs of a healthy campaign (everyone feels competitive, new players aren't completely overmatched, the bookkeeping doesn't kill the GM, etc.), but I hope to roll something out by the end of the year. Those interested in the process should contact me via email or PM and we'll set up a Slack group or something.
The first game of the year will be Saturday, January 30th at 1pm. It will be set during the Wars of Reaving when the Alpha Galaxy of the Steel Vipers declared the Jade Falcons dezgra and, not bothering bidding or pronouncing a batchall, performed an assault drop on Ironhold with the intent of wiping out the Twelfth Talon of the Falcons. The full scenario will be posted on http://catalystdemos.com/ (http://catalystdemos.com/); either check there before the game, or sign up on the site and get notified whenever I announce a game. (I'll try to remember to post in this forum as well.)
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Clans!?! Ack! Thank God for Star League mechs in the General Lists! I think I have all of 2 painted clan mechs and maybe 3-4 others still in their blisters. I hope they do the clan box set at some point so I can pick up some basic clan units relatively cheap.
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Since CatalystDemos.com is down, here's the scenario description:
The Alpha Galaxy of the Steel Vipers declared the Jade Falcons dezgra and, not bothering bidding or pronouncing a batchall, performed an assault drop on Ironhold with the intent of wiping out the Twelfth Talon of the Falcons.
Mission Synopsis: November, 3069. The Alpha Galaxy of the Steel Vipers declared the Jade Falcons dezgra and, not bothering bidding or pronouncing a batchall, performed an assault drop on Ironhold with the intent of wiping out the Twelfth Talon and Zeta Solahma Cluster of the Falcons.
Time: We are scheduled to start at 1:00pm; last round will be called at 6:00pm.
Unit selection: Miniatures & record sheets for pre-made forces will be provided, or players may bring their own.
• 5000 BV. Max three units; bringing over three units incurs a penalty: for each unit over three, the total BV available is reduced by 10% (500 BV). Infantry counts as half a unit per stand, but only half your force (rounded up) may be infantry.
• Piloting/Driving/AntiMech and Gunnery Skills may not differ by more than two.
• All units must be selected from the faction list at http://www.masterunitlist.info. Set search filters to the appropriate faction (Clan Steel Viper or Clan Jade Falcon, along with Homeworld Clan General) and set the era to "Jihad."
• Make the GM's life easy by making forces for both sides; if you have a preference, show up a little early.
• Bringing assembled miniatures that match units your force will give each "correct" model one point of Edge, usable to re-roll one roll directly affecting it once during the battle. This does not apply to forces provided by the GM.
Terrain and setup description: The battle will be held on a 4’ x 6’ map (2” hexes; 24x36). Both sides will move onto their respective short edges on the first round.
Victory Conditions: Victory points are scored equal to the BV of destroyed units plus one half the BV of crippled or withdrawn units.
Special Rules: With a few exceptions, only Total Warfare rules will be used.
• There is no “edge of the world.” If a 'mech is up against a map edge, the three hexes that would be surrounding the 'mech off the board are now legal hexes for movement; occupying any of those hexes opens up more hexes, etc.
• The following rules from Tactical Operations will be used: Floating Crits, Sprinting, Evading, Crawling, Careful Stand, Firing When Down, ECCM, Expanded Backward Movement, Expanded Stacking, Gauss Shut Off, Active Probe Targeting.
• Zellbrigen - Ignored. Earlier battles in this campaign have cause both sides to consider the other unworthy. In short, "Bangkok Rules."
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Well today was fun, ugly, but fun.
In an odd set up from the story line, it was the Vipers that had lots of Green troops, and the Falcon Solhama that were the uber elites.
3 Falcon Teams (Not 100% sure on the skills but they were all damn good.
A - WarHawk-C (2/4)
B - Ebon Jaguar-Prime (1/0?)
C - Turkina-B (2/1?) + Clan Assault Infantry Point (2/2)
3 Viper Teams (Loads of firepower & armor, but the skills were crap)
A - Crossbow-E (3/?) + Viper-A (??)
B - Direwolf-H (3/?) + FireMoth-H (??)
C - DireWolf-A (4/5) + BattleCobra-Prime (4/5) + Elemental-Flamer (4/5) + Elemental-MicroPulse (4/5)
So the Vipers at least outnumbered the Falcons like the story went, which was good because they couldn't win Initiative to save their lives. Taking the Initiative on exactly 2 of 10 turns (4 & 8).
This meant the FireMoth-H was really never able to do his end zone back stabby run. At least not till Turn-8 anyway.
I'm sure I'm off on the exact sequence/timing but here's a rough review.
Map was 36x25ish. Lots of L1 rolling hills, several smaller L2 rises & a couple tiny L3 peaks.
Scattered light/heavy woods & rough.
The Falcons came in from the North map edge.
Turkina & WarHawk were spread out very wide, Ebon Jag was between the Turkey & middle line.
Vipers rolled on from the South with the The D-Wolves coming up the Middle/Right section together opposite the Ebon Jag. The BattleCobra was in the middle with the rest of the force heading up the Middle/Left towards the WarHawk.
1st few turns had the EJ & Turkey working over the D-Wolf-H from range while the Warhawk was savaging the Crossbow. The Wolves were trying to hammer the EJ in return.
Around turn 4 things shifted. The Ebon Jag lost its gauss while the entire west end run turned right & headed towards the Wolves & away from the Hawk.
EbonJag went down first after loosing a side torso & then getting a 3rd engine hit when the CT went internal.
The Crossbow & Assault Infantry killed each other next in the same turn right about when the Turkina lopped of 1 arm off the Battlecobra & critted the gyro.
At that point things were not looking great for the Vipers who couldn't really hit. But the remaining 2 JF monsters were spread wide apart & it allowed the Vipers to focus most of their energy on the Turkina who stayed alive far too long after having most of the damage stack into the CT.
It finally died in Turn 9 & the Hawk was now outnumbered 7-1.
Turn 10 proved to be the final turn as the WarHawk was hit by an LPL to the head from the DWolf only to take an SRM from some Elementals later that turn. Killing the otherwise good shape mech early.
Overall the Vipers didn't hit often, but when they did it stacked well.
The Falcons hit far more often but couldn't concentrate it.
Remaining Viper's Damage (Roughly)
D-Wolf-H (Massive Internal & Armor Damage)
D-Wolf-A (Moderate Armor Damage)
B-Cobra-P (Missing Arm + Gyro Hit)
FireMoth-H (Missing left torso/arm)
Dragonfly-A (Overheating but good shape?)
Both Elementals = Untouched
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The next games will be March 12 & April 2. (Have to work around various release tournaments at the store.)
Scenarios coming soon.
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Next time I'm going to try avoiding playing on the same side as the guy who wants to do suicide by Dire Wolf.
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suicide by Dire Wolf.
Well, if you have to go, I suppose that is guaranteed to be a quick death >:D
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Northwind Stalemate
Mission Synopsis: October, 3075. The Word of Blake struck quickly, assault DropShips capturing the Northwind Highlanders' JumpShips and isolating the world itself. But the Blakists have so far failed to crush the Highlander ground forces. Now they think they have the Highlanders in a trap; the Highlanders, however, see their position more as a target-rich environment...
Date & Time: Saturday, March 12. We are scheduled to start at 1:00pm; last round will be called at about 6:00pm.
Unit selection: Miniatures & record sheets for pre-made forces will be provided, or players may bring their own.
Attacker (WoB): 5500 BV.
Defender (Highlanders): 4500 BV.
Both: Max three units; bringing over three units incurs a penalty: for each unit over three, the total BV available is reduced by 10% (450/550 BV). Infantry counts as half a unit per stand, but only half your force (rounded up) may be infantry.
Piloting/Driving/AntiMech and Gunnery Skills may not differ by more than two.
All units must be selected from the faction list at http://www.masterunitlist.info. Set search filters to the appropriate faction (Inner Sphere General for both; Federated Suns and Mercenary for the defenders, and Word of Blake for the attackers.) and set the era to "Jihad." No Advanced/Experimental units, and all units are limited to Inner Sphere technology.
Make the GM's life easy by making forces for both sides; if you have a preference, show up a little early. Sides will be determined by preference first, but an attempt will be made to keep the sides even in numbers.
Bringing assembled miniatures that match units your force will give each "correct" model one point of Edge, usable to re-roll one roll directly affecting it once during the battle. This does not apply to forces provided by the GM.
Terrain and setup description: The battle will be held on a 4’ x 6’ map (2” hexes; 24x36). Expect mountainous terrain The Highlanders will set up anywhere on the board more at least 8 hexes from a short edge. The WoB attackers will move on from the short edges. Each attacking player must choose only one of the short edges, and the players must be split as evenly as possible.
Victory Conditions: Victory points are scored equal to the BV of destroyed units plus one half the BV of crippled or withdrawn units.
Special Rules: With a few exceptions, only Total Warfare rules will be used.
There is no “edge of the world.” If a 'mech is up against a map edge, the three hexes that would be surrounding the 'mech off the board are now legal hexes for movement; occupying any of those hexes opens up more hexes, etc.
The following rules from Tactical Operations will be used: Floating Crits, Sprinting, Evading, Crawling, Careful Stand, Firing When Down, ECCM, Expanded Backward Movement, Expanded Stacking, Gauss Shut Off, Active Probe Targeting.
No linking of C3 between multiple players.
The attackers are at the end of a long supply chain, hold the high ground, and are willing to play the long game. Therefore they are subject to Forced Withdrawal. The defenders are not, and will fight to the bitter end.
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Are you sure those BV's are correct?
Didn't we discover last time that 10% BV was too much just to compare to Forced Withdrawal?
This is more like 25%?
I think its going to be walkover for the Weeble-Wobbles.
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The WoB forces are split into two groups at opposite ends of the map. The last time we ran that, we discovered that that's a much bigger penalty.
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Ah, okay, I didn't see they were split.
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My main worry about this scenario is that it will be unbalanced from the start due to more players on one side having fully read the scenario and chosen units accordingly. I think I'm OK with that. 8)
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So how do you see the split going?
It says each player much choose only 1 side, then divide close to equal.
So how would that work with an odd # of players for the Wobs?
For example if 2 or 6 people show up & its 1/3 for the Wobs?
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If it's only 2, the setup changes. In that unlikely event, I'll come up with something.
For 6, I'll have one WoB player to split their force.
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You guys are up in Phoenix? Where at?
I am a Tucson player and we have accumulated quite a group at Isle of Games in Tucson, AZ. There are about 12 unique players. On the other side of town is another group that I think is about 7 or 8 unique players. Do you get many players up there?
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Mainly Game Depot in Tempe, though there's another Demo Agent who occasionally runs games out of Empire Games in Mesa. Imperial Outpost used to have a semi-regular game, but I don't know if that's still the case.
Our average game size is 6, but the players vary; unique players I've seen in the last year or so is about twice that (and a few years ago I would get 12 or more showing up regularly, but things have slowed since). I run a game about once a month.
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What exactly does a demo agent do? We have kicked off a campaign experimenting with the Warchest Point system at our store.
There is potentially for city vs city games here!
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We try to raise awareness of Catalyst games, and run regular open-to-all games (demos for new players, as well as scenarios for returning players). I'd point you to the website, but it's currently undergoing a redesign. The requirements for Battletech are a decent collection of painted miniatures (12+, but more is better), the ability to design an interesting scenario, and the ability to run at least six events per year (public events at game stores that sell the game, and/or at game conventions). That last one is the tricky one. I've been doing it since the FanPro days when the program started (though I sometimes switch to Shadowrun for a few months), but I've seen others come and go over the years.
City vs city games sound fun, but they have... a bad history, at least as far as Phoenix vs Tucson goes. Typically the scenarios have been slanted towards the hosting side, or eras where arguments over the inclusion of house rules have torpedoed even an attempt at a game. Then there were the convention arguments. (I'll just leave those in the distant past where they belong.) If it can be worked out, I'm all for it -- I just haven't seen it work out happily in the 20+ years I've been playing BT in these parts. The only fairly-run games that didn't end in resentment (well, justified resentment -- gamers are gamers) were the Battletech Opens run at conventions in the late 90s. It's hard to screw up a tournament format that sticks to the rules as written. That could make a good summer project...
You should advertise your campaign to the folks in Phoenix -- I suspect a few might drive down if it's not too frequent. I had a campaign running about five years ago (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=4768.0 (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=4768.0)), but I ended it due to my having created a paperwork nightmare (accounting is NOT my hobby!). On my plate for this year is coming up with a new, streamlined version; watch this forum for an announcement once I get it worked out. Are your rules up online anywhere? I'm always looking for ideas.
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As for running games, many nights I tend to set the BV limit and add players in who arrive late. This campaign arc I set up with other players that were really interested. I have never done a game master position before so this is a test run to make sure I understand the WP system and to see what base unit start sizes should be for the players. The campaign arc I am running right now is slightly scripted, meant to have the player force pushed off planet so they can rebuild and counterattack. Tonight's mission is a race to find a captured pilot in the middle of a heavy rainstorm (TacOps). The player force will know the location of the pilot from my OpFor, with a larger force, and the OpFor, my force is slightly lower BV but has a hidden unit from a reinforcing unit. My mechs will be scanning and then whoever has the pilot must get all their mechs off the board. There are a couple minor objectives. The next mission will be an assault and evac mission for the player force based on the MW4 Black Knight expansion battle when the Black Knight Legion is assaulted.
Tonight if a mech trips and falls, the pilot falls/escapes out of the mech's hand so he has to be picked back up again. Hahaha, there is going to be a lot of rapids.
For my collection I have 39 IWM mechs including an Ares class.
What kind of rules would be used to give the host the advantage? I would like to run games on the Weekend, but my currently schedule of priorities doesn't allow, our usual games are Thursday nights.
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What kind of rules would be used to give the host the advantage?
Convention games with set forces where it's Clan vs IS in equal numbers & tonnage, the Clan gets superior pilots, but the IS gets C3 (and the Clans are noticeably lacking ECM).
Allowing house rules (not TacOps stuff, I mean full-on homebrew) and setting a custom 'mech battle where one side, having years of experience with those house rules, has designed their units to exploit them.
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I don't see the fun in having one sides be exponentially better. Maybe throwing a commander in would be acceptable, but I don't like games that are horribly offset. For games I set up, there are general parameters, if players want to get together for a C3 network, they need to do that. Really, its bring what you unit would have. I could understand an IS vs clan fight, but it needs to be BV based for sure. Objectives also need to be even as well.
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A lot of those were before BV. Like I said, it's certainly possible, it's just that every time someone has suggested that, things have gone horribly, horribly wrong.
As for why make one side better? Years of smack talk over tournaments (back when tournaments were a thing) culminating in a "who's better" battle. Or just people who don't like to lose, so they set up something like that convention battle and play IS, knowing that most people will glance at the forces and take Clan.
My stuff is as even as I can make it, and I don't doubt your good intentions. I just have an old nervous twitch that shows up when someone suggests a Phoenix vs Tucson game.
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Hm, that sounded overly negative. Let me rephrase:
I'd be happy to help set up, or even host, a city-vs-city game. However, I recommend a format other than "giant scenario." In my experience, those are very hard to balance, and are often decided by the setup choices rather than actual tabletop play (which shows good understanding of 'mech choices, but isn't fun for the team that can see the locomotive coming). In the meantime, tell your players we have a ~monthly game in Phoenix, and I'll let mine know about your campaign -- maybe that will remove some the nagging I'm getting about running one!
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We are still in the beginning stages, so it is a little rough haha. The game we started tonight is interesting so far. It's about halfway over, when we reassemble next week, we should be finishing the game off.
I always prefer even sides. I want my skills to outmaneuver/outshoot to perform, not simply having better gear.
Can you give me an example of how an event went South?
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Examples of how things go wrong, despite good intentions:
- I set the BV and unit count limits so that most players will bring 2-3 units. However, if we assign sides randomly or by desired faction, you can end up with one side having nearly double the units of the other side. (It's rare, but it happened last month.)
- You can only fit so much map on a table. If the force sizes are set assuming the norm of ~6 players and you get 10-12, the map is crowded. That leads to more focused fire (punishing mistakes more harshly, which is rough on newer players) and can make it very hard for faster units to break through to deal with snipers sitting in trees (or SG-LRM carriers, <cough>Hellraiser</cough>) in the back. In a less-crowded scenario those are balanced, if not underpowered, but when the middle gets choked with brawlers, the snipers become more effective.
- Someone on a side throws all their BV into one uber-Mech -- that gets focused down early because it's scary (easy if scenario #2 happens). Their team is now down an entire force's worth of BV. (Yes, it's mostly the player's fault -- but it hurts the whole team, and it's not their fault.)
- Most or all of a team chooses stuff that's really light or really slow & heavy. Not a huge problem, but sometimes there's an objective that's going to be harder because everyone assumed someone else would bring stuff to handle it.
The majority of these could be solved by me simply bringing everything, with two forces that are then split up between all the players... but most players like coming up with their own stuff and bringing their own minis, and I don't want to take that away from them. (I bring player-sized forces for those who don't like rolling their own.) I do bring everything for convention games, though.
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What's the age group of your players? We have 1 or 2 guys that have been playing for over a decade and a little older, there are a couple of middle age guys, and a couple of us around 25-30. We are a pretty friendly group.
I think specifics would need to be set, such as we had to here. We go fairly strict Total Warfare rules. Initiative, movement, declare shots, shoot (normally filling out heat here then adjusting if once a blue moon a heat sink is knocked out by a physical), physicals, end phase.
We use movement modifiers in both front and back of the mechs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgeopwjabGQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgeopwjabGQ) (This is a video series I have started, explaining the base rules because I haven't seen any really good videos explaining how to play the game, I focus on using the dice further into the video.)
We also give each mech 1 edge, meaning the mech can force a defensive reroll once.
Are there any similarities to the way you guys play?
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Mostly around 40, +/- 5. One regular is in his 60s and has been playing since it was called Battledroids; a few more of us have been playing since the early box sets (it was the cover art of CityTech that got me to buy the game). We lost our youngest regular last fall when he left for college.
We play by Total Warfare with a few TacOps rules added (see the upcoming scenario (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=50612.msg1183120#msg1183120) above. The only change we make in the turn order is that, to speed things up, fire declaration is written. Much faster when you have 12+ units per side. It also makes it easier to resolve fire, as you can just find the target's owner and pair off (no need for everyone to watch every shot).
We use just one movement die -- players record on their sheet how they moved (or just remember it -- it's pretty easy to check for those who forget). The movement dice are also used to figure out initiative when one side outnumbers the other -- if you put all the movement dice in piles at the start of a turn, it's easy to see when one side outnumbers the other 2:1 and needs to start moving 2. Oh, and there's also a Kooshtm that comes out when we get a lot of players -- throw it at the other team when it's their turn to move.
I use Edge as a marketing tool. Any unit represented by the correct miniature (and provided by the player -- borrowing doesn't count) has a point of Edge.
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- (or SG-LRM carriers, <cough>Hellraiser</cough>) in the back.
To be fare, its not just crowding, I also guard my LRM Carriers with Precision-20 Saladins & Artillery >:D
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I like the way you use edge, convinces people to play with the right pieces. Most of our guys use the right minis so its not an issue with us.
In the scenario we are halfway through I brought in heavy rain as I mentioned before and wow there is a lot of missed shots. The hidden unit our side had jumped out and lit the opposing commander up with 5 of 6 RAC5 rounds and 2 ER large Lasers (Clan), it was the Vulpes, but in return almost every single shot landed on the left torso so the rest of the mech is fine, but left torso is into internals..... But, the Commander slammed into the ground right after that horrible barrage.
Do you run any tournaments among your players? If so, what are some normal parameters?
What days are most of your guys able to play?
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I rarely run tournaments these days. I used to do it years ago, especially at conventions, but now that Battletech is a less popular game I've found I get better attendance by just running regular scenarios. The closest thing to a tournament I do regularly is King of the Hill (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=49609.0).
I run all my games on Saturdays. I have a standard M-F job, and my players who don't can usually schedule their days off so they can play.
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Do you post photos of your games at all?
Look up battletech tucson on facebook if you want to see what we have been doing.
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I haven't taken many photos recently, and the old stuff is on my down-because-it-was-hosted-at-my-last-job-and-they-finally-repurposed-that-server website. Searching back through my posts here:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=3404.msg91053#msg91053 (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=3404.msg91053#msg91053)
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=34654.msg815363#msg815363 (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=34654.msg815363#msg815363)
And I'll attach a few from my website backup. The last one is what the hill for King of the Hill looks like, though I've gotten a bit better at building it -- that picture is from HexaCon 2004!
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That's really nice terrain. Did you guys build it or is it from a box set?
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I bought mine, though the company, BattleHex, is no more. Ian, the other Demo Agent in Phoenix, liked the idea so he made his own from templates cut from mine. We like it because it's terrain, but it's still hexes -- and level hexes so 'mechs don't fall over. Also, they're 2" hexes, which gives enough room to go prone without running into adjacent units. (And 2" hexes are almost required for some of the larger minis these days.)
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So as far as I know there isn't a catalyst demo team member in Tucson that i have heard of. If I was interested in that, how would I go about doing it?
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Ordinarily, I'd say, "Go to catalystdemos.com (http://catalystdemos.com) and start the application process; however, they're still rebuilding the site after the move (it was partially fixed, but it's completely down right now). So try PMing Worktroll on these forums.
You will need (if memory serves):
1. At least one store willing to host your games.
2. A decent collection of painted minis (the 30-ish you mentioned should be fine; my level of insanity is far beyond the requirements).
3. The willingness to run 6+ games per year.
4. When I applied it was required to write a scenario, but I'm not sure if that's still the case (when I applied, there was also something about "kill a woolly mammoth").
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Does Catalyst issue out scenarios for games at all? For running a game does that just mean a store is willing to set aside a block of time and space for Battletech? Is there advertising or anything involved?
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There are, occasionally, worldwide events that can be run with provided scenarios. The vast majority of the time, though, you'd just do what you've been doing -- running games that your players enjoy (with the addition of being ready to demo the game to interested potential new players).
To be an acceptable store for events it must have space for you to play (obvious, you'd think, but it has to be stated) and it must have Battletech stuff available for sale.
Advertising in the store is good, as well as posting here and on CatalystDemos.com. Just make sure interested players can find your games.
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O ok, yeah, that's all stuff we do already! Have you had a chance to check out our facebook page?
Are there perks to being part of the demo team? I sent worktroll a PM so we will see what he has to say.
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PDFs. Once you've completed a few events, you get access to all the core rulebooks and every record sheet compilation. Additionally, you get one credit per event usable for downloading a different PDF (not already included in the free stuff). You also get a discount for direct orders from Iron Wind Metals, though with the cost of shipping small orders it's only worth it if you save up.
I like your Facebook group; I'm thinking of doing one for Phoenix.
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That's a pretty cool set up. I'd be more than happy to join up with the team. Are any convention type things that happen or invitations?
Are you big into fanfiction? The guys have seemed to like that I do that.
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You can volunteer to run demos and events at the big cons (GenCon, Origins); run enough and Catalyst will comp your badge. We're nowhere near well-funded enough to have our own conventions. ;)
I don't go that far into it for my scenarios. I go through the "fluff", find an interesting battle, and set up scenario parameters based on that (e.g., factions, era, terrain layout, weather, etc.).
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Well for now I'd just be small time at the local store haha.
If I can get on with the team I'd be more than happy starting up demos on the weekends. I've never been to a convention, have you? Are there a lot of Battletech players there?
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The local cons get a few, but there aren't any big local cons anymore. I'll be running games at MaricopaCon this summer. I haven't been to GenCon in years, but it (and Origins) are always well-attended by Battletech players.
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Joel, what are the dates for Maricopa Con this year?
Thanks! Paul
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August 13-14. Note that, as badges are sold via the KickStarter that funds the con, there may not be badges for sale at the door.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jasony/maricopacon-2016-board-card-games-and-rpgs/description (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jasony/maricopacon-2016-board-card-games-and-rpgs/description)
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Do you get a lot of players at maricopacon? I may see about heading that way....
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Thanks for the info, now to work logistics with Household 6. :))
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Do you get a lot of players at maricopacon?
Small con, so only a few; it's mainly an RPG con. Plus my attendance has been spotty -- the first year of the con I got sick and couldn't run games on the second day. The second year I couldn't attend at all, as I was busy renewing my wedding vows for our 20th wedding anniversary. Last year I was only there one day because the second day was my wife's birthday. This year I plan on running Battletech on Saturday and some other games on Sunday. My Battletech games will probably be Alpha Strike so that they can fit into a single, two-hour slot.
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Would you need someone else to help run a game to play regular Battletech? Worktroll got back to me and let me know he would find who I should talk to as well.
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http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=3404.msg91053#msg91053 (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=3404.msg91053#msg91053)
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=34654.msg815363#msg815363 (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=34654.msg815363#msg815363)
that picture is from HexaCon 2004!
Ah, those brought back some memories.
I see my Alacorn & LRM Carrier along w/ I think a Wolverine. Was "The Pass" a campaign game?
That other thread had the Galatea battle that was fun, we should try something like that one again.
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Would you need someone else to help run a game to play regular Battletech? Worktroll got back to me and let me know he would find who I should talk to as well.
I doubt there would be enough players to support it. Is RinCon in Tucson going to happen this year? I keep meaning to go to that one, but, you know, life... :'(
Was "The Pass" a campaign game?
No, much older than that. I don't have any more details, though, with both CatalystDemos and my site down.
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To be honest, I have never been to rincon and know nothing about it, I'll ask at the local store.
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BTW, there is a new demo agent in Tucson for Shadowrun running out of Isle of Games: http://www.wherevent.com/detail/Catalyst-Demo-Team-Running-the-Shadows-Session-2 (http://www.wherevent.com/detail/Catalyst-Demo-Team-Running-the-Shadows-Session-2)
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That's pretty cool, I don't play shadow run so I'm not sure who is in that group.
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Most or all of a team chooses stuff that's really light or really slow & heavy. Not a huge problem, but sometimes there's an objective that's going to be harder because everyone assumed someone else would bring stuff to handle it.
This be driving me bats for this weekend's scenario. For the attacker especially a lot is going to hinge on who brings what and what side of the map they end up on. I think this is the most challenging scenario to build a force for you've come up with in quite a while.
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Its been a while but I'm back, what did I miss?
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This Saturday's game cancelled.
I'm sick with a stomach bug. Moving the game to April 9.
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Well, Bollocks. Hope you are feeling better soon. The stomach bug is nasty but at least it tends to be over fairly quickly.
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That other thread had the Galatea battle that was fun, we should try something like that one again.
Ah yes, I remember that one.
One of my mechs got used as a landing pad.
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Next date will be the 9th, not the 2nd. (Magic tournament at Game Depot.)
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Saturday is a good day for Battletech, can't let it go to waste! People can still meet up to play a game!
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Bump as reminder for the game on Saturday! O0
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Wouldn't mind seeing this scenario again just so I can play the other side.
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Thanks! I've tried asymmetric battles before and I think I finally got the balance right. This scenario seems like one that really rewards thinking -- the Highlander players in this battle didn't try to use their speed to destroy half the WoB force before the other half could close, and paid for that mistake dearly. They split pretty much evenly, and so both north and south sides of the map were down 1500 BV.
Northwind Highlanders: (Deployment - top 3 south, next 2 mid heading north, last 2 north)
Specter 5S
Javelin 11A
Wolfhound 4W
Thunder 1L
Flashman 8K
Locust 6M (0/1 pilot!)
Hammer 3C (0/0 pilot!!)
Word of Blake: (Deployment - top 5 south, bottom 3 north)
Deva Dominus
Preta Invictus
Ostscout 9CS
Ostsol 8M
Ostscout 11J
WHM 9S
Legacy 02
Exterminator 5E
The Blakist forces in the north got hit on their way in with the Locust and Hammer using their speed & skill to get round 1 back shots. In the south, the Blakist forces missed a lot of easy shots and got peppered in return. The Specter activated its ECM to block the C3I, and the Ostscout 9CS flipped its ECM to ECCM and maneuvered to keep the Specter within its bubble. Round 2 had the Highlander's northern lights pull back as their two heavies moved in. In the south, lots of armor was removed -- mainly from Highlander 'mechs.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1674/26313868516_c6e4537823_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/G6gsmd)
Round 3 was the turning point, as the Thunder blew up from an ammo critical. In the south, the three Highlander 'mechs remained alive but badly beaten up.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1461/26273601751_af952aa66b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/G2H5rD)
Round 4 saw the elimination of the Specter, Javelin and Ostcout in the south as the Ostsol headed north to help against the Flashman (or maybe swat one of the gnats dogging the WoB heavies).
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1704/25734958684_0be6d391db_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Fd7oCd)
On round 5 the Wolfhound was dragged down, the Hammer had its head kicked off, and the Flashman was hit hard. Round 6 didn't occur, as the Highlander players threw in the (tartan) towel.
Quote of the game: "OK, kick hits, that's 13 damage on the punch table... <rolls 6> Head!"
(Yeah, that's how the game went for the Highlanders...)
(Memo, me: Toss camera bag in with Battletech stuff instead of relying on cellphone camera.)
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Next game will be May 14th. I'm going to whip up something allowing experimental rules, probably late Jihad era. After that, I hope to launch a new campaign!
Also, since the Facebook page started by the Tucson players is doing well, I've started my own. Go to Facebook, search for Battletech Phoenix, and send a request to join.
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The Fall of Geneva
Saturday, May 14, 1pm at Game Depot, Tempe.
Mission Synopsis: September, 3078. Having outmaneuvered the liberating forces, a large Blakist force is marching out of Geneva into the face of a hastily scraped-together blocking force.
Unit selection: Miniatures & record sheets for pre-made forces will be provided, or players may bring their own.
Attacker (WoB 4th Division & 51st Shadow Division): 5000 BV. Elite units - no skills worse than 3/4. Unit List Link: http://tinyurl.com/huczvju (http://tinyurl.com/huczvju)
Defender (the rest of the Inner Sphere): 5000 BV. Unit List link: http://tinyurl.com/hgml8nz (http://tinyurl.com/hgml8nz)
Both: Max four units; bringing over four units incurs a penalty: for each unit over three, the total BV available is reduced by 10% (500 BV). Infantry counts as half a unit per stand, but only half your force (rounded up) may be infantry.
Both: Advanced and Experimental units are allowed, except those using: Artillery, Artillery Cannons, HVAC, Cockpit Command Console, Field Artillery, 'Mech Mortars, Mine Dispensers, Mines, and the following Munitions: Magnetic Pulse Missiles, Smoke Missiles, Swarm Missiles, Tandem-Charge Missiles, Tear Gas SRMs.
Piloting/Driving/AntiMech and Gunnery Skills may not differ by more than two.
Experimental (but not Advanced) tech and units are allowed. They are included in the above Master Unit List links.
Make the GM's life easy by making forces for both sides; if you have a preference, show up a little early. Sides will be determined by preference first, but an attempt will be made to keep the sides even in numbers.
Bringing assembled miniatures that match units your force will give each "correct" model one point of Edge, usable to re-roll one roll directly affecting it once during the battle. This does not apply to forces provided by the GM.
Terrain and setup description: The battle will be held on a 4’ x 6’ map (2” hexes; 24x36). Expect rolling hills and forests Each side will move on to one of the narrow sides of the map on the first turn.
Victory Conditions: Victory points are scored equal to the BV of destroyed units plus one half the BV of crippled or withdrawn units.
Special Rules: With a few exceptions, only Total Warfare rules will be used.
There is no “edge of the world.” If a 'mech is up against a map edge, the three hexes that would be surrounding the 'mech off the board are now legal hexes for movement; occupying any of those hexes opens up more hexes, etc.
The following rules from Tactical Operations will be used: Floating Crits, Sprinting, Evading, Crawling, Careful Stand, Firing When Down, ECCM, Expanded Backward Movement, Expanded Stacking, Gauss Shut Off, Active Probe Targeting, Retractable Blades.
No linking of C3 between multiple players.
Notes: Experimental vs Advanced is actually a bit tricky. What I'm after can be summed up as "no arty or other area-effect weapons, no mines, no smoke." So while Cruise Missiles are Experimental, no. Just no. On the other hand, Thunderbolt missiles are fine.
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Thanks! I've tried asymmetric battles before and I think I finally got the balance right. This scenario seems like one that really rewards thinking -- the Highlander players in this battle didn't try to use their speed to destroy half the WoB force before the other half could close, and paid for that mistake dearly. They split pretty much evenly, and so both north and south sides of the map were down 1500 BV.
Northwind Highlanders: (Deployment - top 3 south, next 2 mid heading north, last 2 north)
Specter 5S
Javelin 11A
Wolfhound 4W
Thunder 1L
Flashman 8K
Locust 6M (0/1 pilot!)
Hammer 3C (0/0 pilot!!)
Word of Blake: (Deployment - top 5 south, bottom 3 north)
Deva Dominus
Preta Invictus
Ostscout 9CS
Ostsol 8M
Ostscout 11J
WHM 9S
Legacy 02
Exterminator 5E
Wow.
2 Heavies & 5 Lights v/s Assault, 4 Heavies, Medium, 2 Lights
I'm not sure I'd call that even close to balanced.
2 lights w/ 0-gunners?
This feels a lot like the Battle of Outreach we had several years ago.
It didn't end well for the Mercs there either.
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Those two super-light 'mechs were definitely a mistake (not one of my forces, BTW). Sure, they hit all the time, but they didn't have enough punch to bring anything down. However, change those two for something like the three lights in the other force, and have everything slam one of the two WoB lines, and the thinking after the game was that the outcome might very well have been different.
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The Mercs were short a total of 3000 BV more or less given that it was 3 on 3. But if they had concentrated on one force they would have had a local superiority of more than 5000 BV until the two Blakist forces could rejoin. The high number of lights were definitely a mistake IMHO. I also think they should of picked the north side to concentrate on. They had a number of non-jumpers and the more open terrain would have let them maneuver better.
The one change I would make to the scenario would be to have the Blakist for write down which units would enter on which end of the map prior the Highlanders placing their units. Being able to see where they were placing their units ahead of time did have an effect on which end of the maps we chose of each of our forces.
As for the Blakists the other two forces used 3Ci which I have to say I thought was a waste of points even though the Highlanders only had one ECM unit so they really weren't able to shut either network down. The fight on the south end was a melee pretty much from start to finish and the north end with only two linked units couldn't really capitalize on the network especially with the Legacy jumping every turn.
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For Fall of Geneva did you mean to leave House Kurita off the Defender List?
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Didn't mean to. Link updated, thanks.
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Can we go with the 'what you're after rules' and just require that people actually read the mech sheet and rules?
Every mech I wanted to try out in a game with you guys seems to be advanced (VSPLs or Claws).
The only EXP mechs I even have are the archer, thunderbolt and as of yet not assembled Omega...
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Part of the reason for this scenario is the "When can I play my Omega?" question I get asked about once per game... :D
But yes, it might be easier to spec it that way. Just ask first (PM or email) if there's any doubt, because due to the difficulty in sorting out design legality at this level I'm going to have to reserve the right to say, "No," and hand a player one of my pre-made forces.
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Suggestion.
If your rolling out all the advanced tech. (Omegas.. etc)
I would open up the Tech to include all designs for said factions.
It allows the few captured Clan machines a faction might have to come out.
Also, it opens up those Hybrid machines from OP: Bulldog that Never get the option of being used to come out & play for once.
Just a thought. :)
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Another issue I noticed... Master Unit List treats EXP as a 'higher' tech level than 'ADV' The Naginata NG-C3Ar has a VSPL (advanced) and a boosted C3 (experimental) and it is classed experimental.
Worse yet by simplifying your rules to X-List and Y-List you have allowed the PLG-X4 Anvil, which has not one but two long tom arty cannons, because it has experimental coolant pods.
I would just send out an email requesting that all lists be approved by you.
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It allows the few captured Clan machines a faction might have to come out.
Also, it opens up those Hybrid machines from OP: Bulldog that Never get the option of being used to come out & play for once.
No. BV doesn't work well across tech boundaries, so I don't like mixing Clan & IS (especially Hybrid -- Clan weapons on IS chassis has always felt under-BV'd to me).
I would just send out an email requesting that all lists be approved by you.
Yeah, I was hoping to avoid that, but that's probably the way to go. I'll put together a list of banned components, and then allow everything else (subject to approval).
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Yeah, I was hoping to avoid that, but that's probably the way to go. I'll put together a list of banned components, and then allow everything else (subject to approval).
In this case Master Unit List just isn't able to filter well enough...
Part of the reason for this scenario is the "When can I play my Omega?" question I get asked about once per game... :D
But yes, it might be easier to spec it that way. Just ask first (PM or email) if there's any doubt, because due to the difficulty in sorting out design legality at this level I'm going to have to reserve the right to say, "No," and hand a player one of my pre-made forces.
It's a tiny bit unfair I think, to say this is a scenario that is any good for playing an omega though.
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It's being fought on Terra, right? That's about the only criteria for deciding whether to play one IMO. :D
As to the MUL it does seem a bit screwy when you get into this time frame. Equipment is starting to shift from their old categories to their new ones. I think it's kind of stupid that each piece of equipment has its own date of transition. Nice from a fluff perspective but a pain in the butt from a rules perspective IMHO.
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So snub nose PPCs, VSPL, Heavy Gauss, etc have variable damage based on range bracket. The assumption is that this means they do not gain any benefit from C3/C3i for the purpose of determining damage value.
This question has come up in my group before and I ruled that the damage is affected based on range to firer. I imagine this question will come up and internet searches don't tell me any official rulings that I can find?
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C3 only affects to hit modifiers. Damage is still based on the actual range to target.
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Correct. TW, p131 says:
Minimum Ranges: Minimum range is always determined from the attacking unit to the target.
Variable Damage Weapons: The range, to determine the Damage Value of a Variable Damage Weapon, is always determined from the attacking unit to the target.
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No. BV doesn't work well across tech boundaries, so I don't like mixing Clan & IS (especially Hybrid -- Clan weapons on IS chassis has always felt under-BV'd to me).
I hear you. And most days I agree.
But if your unleashing an Omega, then, I really can't say that mixing tech is the issue that it might seem to be. The minute you give the IS all the "Advanced" toys they have then "basic" clan doesn't feel quite so broken.
At least to me.
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The Omega is tough but it's not that tough. Not that I'd like to see it backed up by Clan Tech, however. :o
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Yeah, as a habitual medium driver, all I see when I look at the Omega is a lot of points wrapped up in one convenient, easy to flank package.
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Are we playing with Aerospace units?!?
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No. I guess I should have been MUCH more careful with those check boxes...
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ROFL! ;D :D O:-)
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The Omega is tough but it's not that tough. Not that I'd like to see it backed up by Clan Tech, however. :o
I was more thinking using the clan tech to kill it.
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I was more thinking using the clan tech to kill it.
Yeah, I know.
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OK, I think I got the MUL filters and list of banned equipment correct in the scenario description for next Saturday's game.
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Battle Report for "The Fall of Geneva":
With two Omegas the WoB forces were a bit outnumbered. The "Rest of the Inner Sphere" side gave up a lot of points with all their Angel ECM carrying light 'mechs, though, so while the WoB side was never able to use its C3i links, they still had a *lot* of armor! Both sides got in some lucky hits -- one Omega was headcapped (two light gauss several rounds apart) after having most of the incoming fire for several rounds hit only center torso, and the Barghest on the other side that took some stacked hits on the Heavy Gauss torso (crit roll = 10, EDGE!, crit roll = 8, BOOM!). The CASE II saved the Barghest, but it had already taken a head hit -- the explosion knocked out the pilot, who then took another point of damage (total of 4) when the 'mech fell. It regained consciousness a few rounds later (having luckily fallen behind a hill, out of line-of-sight) to stand up... and have that torso finished off, removing the left front leg, causing a fall... you see where this is headed. Nappy time.
In the end the WoB forces' inability to win initiative more than once in the entire game spelled out their doom, as their flanking forces were never able to come to grips with the enemy so that they could bring their C3i into play. Good game, though!
The next game will be on June 18th. I'm planning a big Alpha Strike game -- at least a company per player (using Lance Initiative) on an 8'x8' table! Since Alpha Strike handles Clan vs Inner Sphere much better than regular Battletech, I'm thinking of doing one of the big Ghost Bear Dominion vs WoB battles near the end of the war. Maybe we'll get to see the Omegas again!
Edit: June 18th is Free RPG Day. We're looking to see if the 25th works.
Edit #2: The next game will be June 25th.
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Next game will be a Jihad era game using Alpha Strike:
Bears on the Attack
6/25/16 Game Depot @ 1pm
Scenario Brief: August 3076. After months of relative quiet and an unofficial cease-fire between Stone’s Coalition and the Word of Blake, fighting broke out again in July as the Coalition launched a series of assaults on key Protectorate worlds. The forces of the Ghost Bear Dominion joined the fight again, striking along a long sector of the Protectorate border, hitting every world at once. Three Galaxies struck the key defensive world of Dyev, and the fighting was brutal and protracted. The years of Blakist occupation having seen a large system of defensive lines and bunkers being built along key sites on the planet, making any direct assault a long and bloody campaign.
Force Composition: Each player will control a 500 point group of Alpha Strike forces. All units must be available during the Jihad according to the Master Unit List (note that the MUL also allows you to print record sheets). All units that are represented by the correct, painted miniature gain the "Lucky 1" pilot ability (ASC p54). GM-provided forces will be available as well.
Both: No aerospace. Carried infantry (in carriers or BA riding omnimechs) does not count against the maximum unit count. Special abilities not in the Standard Alpha Strike rules will not be in effect. (Note that on-board artillery has been added to the standard rules as of the 2.1 errata.) Lance Initiative will be in effect, so all forces must be grouped into the minimum number of groups (groups of 4, 5, or 6, depending on faction).
Attacker Forces: Ghost Bear Dominion, Clan General, IS General. Max 15 units
Defender Forces: Word of Blake & IS General, *or* Mercenary General and IS General. Max 18 units grouped by sixes (WoB) or 16 units grouped by fours (Merc).
Terrain: The battle will be played on an 8'x8' table with hills, forests, and urban areas.
Advanced Rules: Glancing Blows, Lance Initiative
Victory Conditions: The side that still has forces on the board at the end of the game wins.
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I noticed you said that one can print record sheets from the MUL.... How exactly?
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1. Find unit.
2. Add unit to force ("plus" button in upper right)
3. Go to Alpha Strike Force Builder ("Force" tab on ribbon)
4. "Print PDF" button
(Obviously for this scenario steps 1 & 2 would be repeated a lot, and there would be a "3.5" involving tweaking pilot/crew skill to adjust the point total.)
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O are these alpha strike sheets?
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Yes. BTW, before you print your force make sure to click the save button first if you have modified skills. I find that the AS cards all default to four otherwise.
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O I was thinking it was regular record sheets when I read it. I won't be going to the game.
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I wish they'd do that, but that's a lot of programming, and they'd never sell another record sheet PDF again. So lose-lose for them, unless it can be shown that they'd gain game sales elsewhere.
And yes, if it wasn't clear, this next game will be Alpha Strike.
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Anyone interested in contributing to rules development for the upcoming campaign should join the forums at: http://www.plusfiveblogofgaming.com/forum/ (http://www.plusfiveblogofgaming.com/forum/)
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Yesterday's game (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=50612.msg1224265#msg1224265) was a dominant Ghost Bear victory, courtesy of the long ranges and the fact that the Word of Blake forces obviously forgot to perform the pre-game dice-blessing rituals.
Pictures: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.1740871556124580&type=1 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.1740871556124580&type=1)
The next game will be an Alpha Strike game set on Tukayyid, and will be at Game Depot on July 30.
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July 30th, Game Depot, 1pm:
Scenario Brief: July, 3052. Precentor Marshall Anastasius Focht has devised a cunning plan to stop the invading armies of the children of Kerensky. The armies of the Inner Sphere will meet the forces of the Clans in a battle that will decide the fate of the Galaxy. Which side will you fight for?
Force Composition: Each player will control a 400 point group of Alpha Strike forces. All units must be available during the Clan Invasion according to the Master Unit List. All units that are represented by the correct, painted miniature gain the "Lucky 1" pilot ability (ASC p54). GM-provided forces will be available as well. No aerospace. Special abilities not in the Standard Alpha Strike rules will not be in effect. (Note that on-board artillery has been added to the standard rules as of the 2.1 errata.) Lance Initiative will be in effect, so all forces must be grouped into the minimum number of groups (groups of 4 or 5, depending on faction).
Attacker Forces: Any Invading Clan, Invading Clan General. Max 15 units, grouped by fives.
Defender Forces: Any Inner Sphere faction, IS General, and Mercenary General. Max 16 units grouped by fours.
Terrain: The battle will be played on a 4'x8' table with hills, forests, and urban areas. We'll have at least two tables, and will split players evenly between the tables so that we don't have more than four players per table. Setup will be along the long edges.
Advanced Rules: Glancing Blows, Lance Initiative.
Victory Conditions: The side that still has the most points on the board at the end of the game wins. (Crippled vehicles do not count for points.)
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Complete Inner Sphere victory. One battle was decided by the massed firepower of 8 Alacorns; the other was decided by initiative dice (it's hard to deal with being outnumbered when you lose initiative every round but one).
The next game will be August 27th. If life cooperates, we'll be starting the campaign! (If life doesn't cooperate, something else Battletech-related.)
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8 Alacorns, ouch!
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Gee, I wonder whose idea THAT was.
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Battletech Campaign Begins!
Campaign rules, including force generation: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing)
Scenario for August 27: Recon in Force
BV limit: 2500
Unit max: 2
Victory Condition 1 (300 SP per player): Scan 2 buildings per player.
Victory Condition 2 (300 SP per player): Destroy 2 enemy units per player; crippled units count as half units.
Secondary Objective “Deep Scan” (25 SP): Reach the defenders’ home edge, then escape safely off your own home edge.
Salvage: 0 (The presence of nearby enemy reinforcements prevents holding the field.)
Scanning
Any unit (except infantry) in a force may attempt a detailed scan on any turn that it ends its Movement phase within 2 hexes of an opposing unit or building (or the probe’s range if the Attacker unit is equipped with any equipment with “probe” in the title or equipment description). Scanning is successful if the unit spends two complete turns within range of the target. The unit attempting the action may not fire any weapons or make physical attacks during the time it takes to complete a scan; units equipped with a probe ignore this limitation. Line of sight is required.
Plan on a maximum of three players per table. If we run out of tables, we'll work in as many as we can, but precedence will be given to those with pre-made forces.
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The campaign starts Saturday! If this is the first you've heard of it, read the rules (link at bottom of email). The general idea is that each player makes a force and uses elements of that force in a series of scenarios. This will be Players vs GM -- I (and sometimes some volunteers) will be playing one side, and the players will be on the other side. This means that the players don't need to be limited to the same BV; on the other hand, I do need to limit the unit counts per battle. We're starting out low (2/player), and we'll go up once I get a better handle on average attendance. For Saturday's game, you can either create a force, or just show up and play -- I'll have both full mercenary units (for those who want to campaign but don't like paperwork) and one-off forces (for those who just want to blow stuff up). If you're creating your own force, though, hurry up -- they're due tomorrow at noon if you don't want to be limited to 2500 BV for Saturday's game.
Remember: You can join the campaign at any time, and miss games without any penalty.
Campaign FAQ:
So, wait, I can bring as much BV as I want to a battle? Yes, so long as you don’t exceed the scenario’s unit count and email Joel ahead of time. If you don’t register your force for the scenario in time, you’re limited to the scenario’s BV cap. (The unit cap always applies.)
Can I bring Advanced/Experimental/Clan tech? Not at this time. It’s easier to add pieces later than take away people’s stuff.
Why so few units allowed in a scenario? Because we want to get done. We’ll increase it until battles take most of our allotted time slot.
It looks like it’s cheaper to hire a new mechwarrior than heal a wounded one. Yes, but it takes a new mechwarrior a game to arrive at the front, and you can’t dispossess your wounded warrior unless the ‘mech is irreparable.
The pay looks a little low compared to the repair costs. We’ll tweak pay… but also try not to die. Just because there’s no Forced Withdrawal doesn’t mean there’s no Voluntary Withdrawal.
How are you going to track things to make sure no one cheats? I’m going to pay attention… and so are the other players. A little embezzlement will most likely go unnoticed for a while, but units or skilled crews appearing out of nowhere will be discovered easily. Any cheating is, of course, grounds for ejection.
Do new units come with ammunition? Yes, anything you buy comes with full bays of any standard-rules ammo you want.
Do I have to bring full ammo bays? No.
Do I have to have the correct miniatures? No, but miniatures that are correct and painted will grant that unit a point of Edge. (No, primer isn’t paint. If you’re not sure if it’s painted, it isn’t.)
Saturday's scenario: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19qFWvBqKnqZOOl2lt9EmvmbnI0FgE-2vRALcF9Xj16Q/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19qFWvBqKnqZOOl2lt9EmvmbnI0FgE-2vRALcF9Xj16Q/edit?usp=sharing)
Campaign rules: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing)
Campaign forces (so far): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KG7jRnaZQ0NoYKRaqUkMMnEmt29qw7IiB0cUp0ev4x4/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KG7jRnaZQ0NoYKRaqUkMMnEmt29qw7IiB0cUp0ev4x4/edit?usp=sharing)
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Lot of C3 there in the first match. It will end in tears. Mark my words. :'(
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Lot of C3 there in the first match. It will end in tears. Mark my words. :'(
I approve of this product and/or service.
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There's no linking between groups (purely for my sanity), so it won't be that bad, I don't think.
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After Action Review: (This is all from memory so don't hate me if there are errors)
7 Players, 2 GMs, 2 Tables.
Table #2: East Game: 1v3
Team South (GM)
9 Units (5 Mechs, 4 Vehicles)
Archer-4M, Hoplite-4Bb, Huron Warrior-R4O, Panther-16k, Valkyrie-QD2
Partisan-Air Defense, Patton-3026, Hunter-LRM15, J.Edgar-3026
Team North (3 Players)
6 Units (5 Mechs, 1 Vehicles)
Archangel-Invictus, Rifleman-II-3N-2, BlackHawk-KU-F, Uziel-8S, Gurkha-8G
Beagle-TAG
The 6 Members of "Team North" had 2 Primary (Kill/Cripple 6 Targets + Scan 6 Buildings)
& 1 Secondary Goal (Get to the enemy edge & back again for "deep recon")
At 450 Tons v/s 340 Tons it didn't look pretty at the beginning.
And 3 rounds in it still didn't look very good.
It took 2 rounds to scan each building & if you didn't have a Active Probe you could not shoot anything during those rounds, which took away from the goal of killing things.
"Team South" forces came out in 2 "lines" that seemed to split them a bit.
East = Partisan, Archer, Hoplite, Patton, J.Edgar
West = Huron Warrior, Panther, Valkyrie, Hunter
The J.Edgar made a deep run to start making back shots at the players.
The Archer & all of the western group opened up on the Rifleman at range.
The other 3 tossed fire on whoever they could see.
By turn 2 the Beagle was in the enemy camp scanning buildings which was good because the Huron Warrior managed to land 2 Gauss Rounds on the Rifleman by Turn 3-4 that stacked on the Left Leg & took out the Foot actuator. This completely changed the game for that mech, as I didn't want to loose 1/2 its firepower by having to prop & shoot when the next round would de-leg it & stop it from ever reaching the buildings. So instead it stayed behind a Level-1 Hill & shot at anything that came forward towards the Archangel that was camped on a hill providing fire support. The 3 fast-ish mechs moved up the east side under cover of woods & tried to flank the enemy force.
After wounding the Rifleman, Team South broke up into smaller groups as some kept moving forwards while others peeled off to help out those holding off the Flankers from Team North & finally a couple moved back to deeper into the base to try to stop the Beagle from having a free for all of recon.
By Turn-5 the Uziel had joined the Beagle inside the base & had scanned a building which means its firepower was unusable. The Hunter had been killed & the Patton Crippled. But things were looking a bit desperate for our players to get the goals of 6 & 6.
The Archangel came down off the hill & moved in for more direct combat & to draw fire, while the Rifleman continued to snipe with the LBXs.
Finally the JEdgar died to the Rifleman but the Gurkha was down next to a building crippled & trying to live long enough to complete a scan. Which got us to 3 Kills & 6 Scans & time getting close to running out.
I think we went a total of 9-10 rounds & in the last 2 rounds several things happened.
The Beagle sprinted for its home edge to pick up the Secondary goal while Team North, freed up from scanning tried to get last minute kills in. Archangel takes out Panther & Finishes off the wounded Partisan while the Uziel takes down the Valkyrie.
In the end we pulled out the trifecta but it was very close.
Kills/Cripples
Team North = Gurkha (C)
Team South = J.Edgar (K), Valkyrie (K), Hunter (K), Panther (K), Patton (C), Partisan (K)
Scanned Buildings = Gurkha-1, Uziel-2, Beagle-3
Up Next - Table #1 - West Game
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Table #1: West Game: 1v4
Someone else feel free to update this one as my knowledge of it is fairly limited since I was on Table #2.
Team South (GM)
? Units (5? Mechs, 1? Vehicle, 4? Infantry)
Longbow-?
Warhammer-?
Thunderbolt-?
Wolverine-8C
?
Vedette-?
3-6 Platoons of Infantry from what I saw? (1 Foot/Motor, 2 Hover/Mecha?)
Team North (4 Players)
Marauder 9S
Champion 3P
Battle Cobra 2OA
Battle Cobra 2OF
Ostscout 9CS
Raven SS
? Firestarter ?
? (I don't know what mechs were in the pick up force)
As I understand it the table 1 GM forces were even more defensively oriented than Table 2 with all that infantry & several big Heavy/Assault mechs.
The option of doing "recon" was not there & they took heavy fire just trying to get into the base area.
Once in there the option of leaving wasn't going to happen since they couldn't clear the open area again with those guns firing at them.
Once they were in the base however things started to shift.
The Longbow was destroyed from Ammo Explosion & the Infantry were all slowly murdered (Roasted) from Plasma fire. That said, the Wolverine was living up to both its namesakes as a creature that would not die & was savagely killing lashing out at anything & everything. I saw the Record sheet & its rare that I see that much armor blasted off but no internal damage, they managed to sandblast/spread the fire around completely w/o ever getting inside to the soft XL engine & missile ammo. (It never died & has earned a place in the GM forces permanently as a "Reoccurring character"
I don't know how it finally ended but I heard they were close to achieving 1 or both of the primary goals towards the end of the fight.
Feel free to add some more color to this review if you have more info.
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Campaign rules (updated): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KG7jRnaZQ0NoYKRaqUkMMnEmt29qw7IiB0cUp0ev4x4/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KG7jRnaZQ0NoYKRaqUkMMnEmt29qw7IiB0cUp0ev4x4/edit?usp=sharing)
Campaign forces: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KG7jRnaZQ0NoYKRaqUkMMnEmt29qw7IiB0cUp0ev4x4/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KG7jRnaZQ0NoYKRaqUkMMnEmt29qw7IiB0cUp0ev4x4/edit?usp=sharing)
(That's just the current forces -- we still have room for a few more.)
Big thanks to those who participated in yesterday's beta test of the campaign rules. I've updated the support points on the Google Sheets pages for existing forces. As promised, all repairs and medical fees have been covered by your employer, who is paying it out of the life insurance payout from his former chief of intelligence. However, please send me what your repair costs would have been so that I can get a baseline going for calculating future pay.
I'm making a few changes to force generation, which will be applied to existing forces retroactively:
1. Three pilots/crews/platoons may be 3/4 instead of just one. (However, only one gets replaced if killed.)
2. All units get a point of edge. Fully-painted models get an extra point.
3. I've increased the pilot improvement costs to use an exponential progression. As-is we were going to have a bunch of 0-gunners running around in just a few months. I know it's fun to be good, but I retain my position that sub-2 gunners are game-breaking, leading to assault 'mechs pounding on each other with no tactics.
Future opfors will be smaller in BV (probably in the range of 75-80% of the players' forces), though will continue to be at least equal in unit count. This is so that there are more kills (both for missions and because killing things is fun).
Between this battle and the next, only Field upgrades will be possible. Having scouted the enemy successfully, the high command has managed to put you into position where you should be able to overwhelm a large enemy force; if you are successful in holding the field, Maintenance upgrades will be available between that battle and the next. (If we split into two tables and only one wins, only the winners will be able to take advantage of time in a proper repair bay to perform those more complex upgrades.)
Things to ponder over the next few weeks:
1. A good point value for "ransoming" units that cannot escape (two gyro hits, missing a leg, etc.). It should be more than salvage, and probably should have a factor based on its damage -- ransoming a destroyed unit should cost less than ransoming a crippled one.
2. It would be cool to have some kind of bonus for having a MASH unit or heavy recovery vehicle (e.g., Oppie) in your force. It would almost never show up in the fighting, but having it give a discount on repairs would be nice. The trick is to not make it so nice that having one is a no-brainer.
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Uh, Joel, those are both the same link.
Maybe I should make a force. Maybe I'll get lucky and have a free Saturday on the same day as a Battltech game sometime. . . eventually. . . next year. . .if I'm very lucky.
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Uh, Joel, those are both the same link.
Yes, but the content has been updated. The link is just reposted so no one has to scroll back and find it.
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Joel, he means both of them are going to the forces page. Neither of them is going to the RULES page.
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Complete Inner Sphere victory. One battle was decided by the massed firepower of 8 Alacorns; the other was decided by initiative dice (it's hard to deal with being outnumbered when you lose initiative every round but one).
8 Alacorns, ouch!
Gee, I wonder whose idea THAT was.
PS. Don't look at me, I wasn't there. But I applaud the strategy of it. :D
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Joel, he means both of them are going to the forces page. Neither of them is going to the RULES page.
#Facepalm
https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing)
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Saturday's scenario:
Stand-Up Fight
BV limit: 2500 (does not apply to forces announced by Thursday)
Unit max: 3 (applies to all forces)
Victory Condition 1 (400 SP per player): Destroy 2 enemy units per player; crippled units count as half units.
Victory Condition 2 (200 SP per player): Have at least twice as many units on the field as the enemy at the end of the battle.
Secondary Objective “Breakthrough” (<tonnage> SP): Exit a non-crippled unit off the enemy’s edge by Turn 5.
Salvage: Yes
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A bit late to say this, but, it occurs to me that there should be a full announcement for today's game on this page.
Location, Time, Rules, Etc Etc.
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Found one in my email.
Battletech Campaign
Scenario: Stand-Up Fight
9/10/16 Game Depot @ 1pm
Scenario Basics:
BV limit: 2500 (only applies for forces not submitted by Thursday)
Unit max: 3 (applies to all forces)
Victory Condition 1 (400 SP per player): Destroy 2 enemy units per player; crippled units count as half units.
Victory Condition 2 (200 SP per player): Have at least twice as many units on the field as the enemy at the end of the battle.
Secondary Objective “Breakthrough” (<tonnage> SP): Exit a non-crippled unit off the enemy’s edge by Turn 5 to earn the unit's tonnage in SP. (It may not return to the battle.)
Salvage: Yes
Force Composition: See the campaign rules: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing
The Short Version: Create a mercenary force according to the rules (or ask the GM for one). Pick three units from that force to bring to the battle. (If you submit these to the GM by Thursday there is no BV limit. After that, max 2500 BV.)
Terrain: The battle will be played on a 4'x6' table (2" hexes) with hills, forests, and a river. We'll have at least two tables, and will split players evenly between the tables so that we don't have more than three players per table. Setup will be along the long edges.
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Also, a Heads up for those trying to schedule.
I'm pretty sure the next game is October 1st, 3 weeks from today, at least that is what was decided 2 weeks ago.
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Good point; I'm trying to update too many sites. Email list, catalystdemos.com, Facebook, here...
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I figured O0
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A quick overview & after action review of yesterday's battle.
Lots of Kinks to continue to work on in beta testing & huge repair bills & no goals completed. :'(
Actually, I'd say the game play was quite fun, and actually the learning part was good & a lot of suggestions have been made to tweak the overall campaign rules.
Table East had Guest GM/Ian facing off against 3 players.
GM Force = 10 Mechs (2Assault, 3 Heavy, 4 Medium, 1 Light)
Atlas-8D, Awesome-9Q, Gallowglass-1, Grasshopper-7K, Shootist-8A?
Dervish-9D, Lightray-5W, MenShen-O-Prime, Huron Warrior-R4N, Talon-6W
Player Forces = 7 Mechs, 2 Vtols (4 Assault, 2 Heavy, 1 Medium, 2 Ultra-Lights)
Archangel-Invictus, KingCrab-005, Viking-?W, Gunslinger-2ERD
Marauder-9W, Champion-3P, Firestarter-O-B, Crow-Dragonfly, Sprint-C3i
Goal 1 = Destroy 6 Enemy Units (Cripples count as Half)
Goal 2 = Out Number the Enemy 2-1 at the end (This essentially meant the same thing as it was 6 units w/o loosing more than 1 of our own)
Goal 3 = Run off the enemies home edge (This goal worked against the other 2 so was mostly ignored)
After 5 Turns ........
Awesome = Totally Destroyed (CT Coring mostly by Gunslinger & Marauder)
Shootist = Destroyed (AC20 to the face from the King Crab)
King Crab = Crippled (Both side torso's destroyed, IIRC, & about to die) Also 2+ Pilot Hits at least.
We were no where close to achieving our goals & from what I heard, neither was the other table & they had even bigger repair bills.
We did Movement for Turn 6 & then just called it because we could not meet the goals & the depot was about to close.
That said, after looking at the record sheets for the GM, we were very close on several more units that would have been a major change to the game pattern had we completed turn 6 & gone on to turn's 7-10ish.
A total of 9 points of damage (if applied to the open locations) would have Destroyed the XL's on the Dervish & Huron Warrior while another 9 would have Crippled the Grasshopper & Gallowglas & triggered Forced Withdrawal on them. This still would only have left us at 5 total (4 kills, 2 cripples). But would have changed the game massively in the next couple turns.
As for the rest of the forces....
Atlas had been sandblasted by the Archangel/Viking & was down about 70 points of armor & was at 12 Heat & moving 2/3 & was surrounded by 3 Heavy/Assault mechs.
Marauder & Champion had moderate armor damage?
Viking?, Gunslinger & Firestarter had Moderate/Light armor damage.
Vtols were untouched as was the Archangel?
As for Joel's table v/s 3 Players to start & a 4th Late arrival:
I heard of the 11 Opfor units, 4-ish tanks crippled/killed & unsure on mechs.
Players had a Sagitaire get Destroyed & a T-Bolt-7SE get Totally Destroyed
That said, after some intense discussions after the game in the parking lot we came up with some alternate goal ideas to propose to Joel to continue to tweak.
Email has been sent but here is a short version.
1. New Goals Structure for this match with pattern for future ones.
Primary Goal = Occupy the Field
Marginal Victory = Out # your opponents at the end = 200 SP + Repair Bay Use
Decicive Victory = Original Goal of Out# them 2-1 = 400 SP + Repair Bay Use
Secondary Goal = Destroy the Enemy
Mission Kills = Tonnage
Crippled = Half Tonnage
Tertiary Goal = Same as old secondary goal = Break through enemy lines
But more likely to happen now that Primary is at a base level of achievable & you can then decide if Decisive is possible or if any sprinters should just make for the edge on last turn.
Those changes above would turn the East table with Ian from 0SP Earned to 350SP & actually had we finished Turn 6 it would be up to 525 SP Earned.
Still not enough to cover that KingCrab, but he does get 1st shot at the Shootist
2. Split Truly Destroyed out from Completely Destroyed into separate salvage to match game rules.
Destroyed still = 50% Base Cost in SP & can be added to forces.
Completely Destroyed = No Salvage
Truly Destroyed now = 25% Base Cost & can NOT be added to forces.
Also, Players that loose their own units get this added directly back into their own pool, not the group pool.
This seems logical but isn't stated in the rules so I clarified it.
New "Order" of Choices of Salvage = Players that Lost Units, Players with Kill Shots, SP Earned Reverse Order
The above would have boosted East Table from 700 Salvage to 1100 Salvage, so going from 233 to 367 Each.
3. Clear use of full Forced Withdrawal Rules by GMs.
When something is immobilized it is abandoned under FW rules.
That has not been getting done.
Instead they have been getting used as Pillboxes to keep killing & initiative sinks
In the end that just raises repair costs, cuts down on salvage, & slows down the game.
So making sure those units are removed from play should lead to improvements in repairs, salvage & turns played. And after all, we are not supposed to be fighting die hard elite house elements.
If we look at those 3 changes in regards to yesterday, I think most people would now turn a profit & even those that lost forces would be close to breaking even, especially when combined with what was earned last game.
Feel free to chime in if you were not in the email since I don't have everyone's address but those are some of the suggestions we came up with yesterday.
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There are a couple other changes that are an issue for changing yesterday & more looking at long term goals.
#4 For Size Cap = 6000 Max BV.
I like our current set up w/ 2500 minimum w/ variable if you give GM enough notice but its not scaling well for truly big forces.
So I'm suggesting a 6K cap for future games while still maintaining the 2500 Minimum/Standard sized forces.
This will allow quite a bit of diversity & really only deny people the very largest combos of Tech + Tonnage + Skills all on the map at the same time.
#5 GM Forces:
To ease Joel's burden as GM & yet hold to the basic goal that he was shooting for which was "More GM Units at Lesser Quality", I came up with a formula last night.
If people like it I'm going to suggest the players start creating forces & then submit them to the GM for approval
Starting with Player Force = Max 3 Units at 2500-6000 BV.
GM Forces follow this pattern
4 Units
Lt. = 40% Player BV at 3/4 skills
Sgt. = 20% Player BV at 4/5 skills
Cpl. = 15% Player BV at 4/5 skills
Pvt. = 10% Player BV at 4/5 skills
This gives the 85% of Player BV.
It also gives you some weaker units for easier kills.
Finally it can be tweaked if you want to toss in some low 3-5% Infantry for the 10% slot & then boost another slot by the missing 5-7% or so.
Or, If you really want a certain unit and it doesn't match any of the above BV rough amounts then a single skill can be lowered by a point to average it out too.
Some examples I worked up for a 5K Player.
Lt = 3/4 = Catapult-C4C (1449*1.38)
Sgt = 4/5 = Trebuchet-5S (984) or Jenner-7F (1011)
CPl = 4/5 = Bulldog-LRM (748)
Pvt = 4/5 = Hawkmoth-Armor (501) or Cavalry-LRM (487)
OR - for a variable to resize 2 of them for tiny infantry BV.
Leader = 3/4 = Wolverine-8C (1447*1.38)
Sgt = 4/5 = Firestarter-O-E (998)
Cpl = 4/5 = Manticore-Standard (993 = Over by 243)
Pvt = 4/5 = Infiltrator-MK2 Battle Armor (253 = Short by 247)
All of the above seem a little more fitting for our "militia" opponents v/s the Atlas-8D & Awesome-9Q lead bestiary of Zombies & Sprinting Backstabbers we faced yesterday.
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Replies to suggestions
1. New Goals Structure - I'm actually thinking of a "base pay" that exists regardless of win/loss. That will reduce the penalty for losses. I do see the problem in counting kills, as it's hard to complete a larger game in time. I'll continue to work on that, but expect to get paid just for showing up next time.
2. Different levels of destroyed - good catch. I'll put something in the rules for next time.
3. Forced withdrawal - Nope. Not happening. "Intelligent forced withdrawal" will be in play, but not "Hey, our superheavy tank just got tracked, so let's all run out of the armor into the open field while abandoning our comrades." I'll be using pretty much the rules as written for 'mechs, but vehicles need that change or a massive BV cut. I'll go with "play logically" over messing with BV.
4. Force size - Some players want to bring big 'mechs, and everyone likes playing with better-than-average pilots. I'm not going to stop them. Last game people said they definitely wanted to bring more than two units each. I'm thinking three is too many to get done in an afternoon unless we switch to three tables (which is logistically difficult). If players don't want to fact large forces, they shouldn't bring large forces. I think many players learned that yesterday. ;)
5. GM Forces - I don't like that fixed amount. It adds a *lot* of work, and while I appreciate the offer to make the forces, I really prefer to make them myself. (Make your own campaign, dammit! ;) ) Depending on scenario I'm going to bring logical opponents. (That said, I need to bring more infantry. It's not as easy as 'mechs/vehicles when using SSW/BFB, but some of you have bonus missions relying on killing infantry.) And who said all your opponents are militia?
TL;DR: I think the trick to making this campaign work is not in limiting the GM forces, but rather in making the payout work with the amount of damage the players are receiving.
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Just my thoughts:
In a campaign setting, bv is less of a balancer and more of a hindrance to gameplay. Balanced forces are not the ideal that we should be striving for. That said, our opponents (GM force) should be challenging, but not overwhelming. No one wants to play and slaughter Joel while taking no damage, but neither do we wish to enter the field and be slaughtered. I think in both games played thus far, the opposition has been greater than need be, as a result of bv balance. Is there no option to ignore bv, and Joel can simply pick some units he wants to field? He can have extras to reinforce with if his estimate is too low once battle is joined, but basing everything on bv is making the game unwinnable to the player. The point of an ongoing game is to challenge the players not beat them. Ideally, we'll learn to work together to take on the bigger enemies (hence my request to intermingle forces between games) but not being able to complete the mission goals means the mission should not have happened.
No one should have their mech shot out from under them in the second game of a campaign. My proposal is that instead of balancing the opposition force, just pick some units that can threaten what we're fielding (since you know what we're bringing and make the drop in player forces yourself) but keep the mission objectives in mind. If kill 2x enemy for each unit fielded is a mission goal, field some srm carriers or pikes that we can pick off from long range while taking minimal damage that will score us the required kills without having to take on the longbow that outweighs, outpilots, and outguns us. Not saying don't take the longbow, but just balance the übermech with some means of actually completing our objectives.
In the case of this last game, I fielded a king crab, champion and marauder. Kill 2x, and outnumber was the goal. Yes, I brought a c3i link which upped my bv, yet I had 0 ecm so what good did it do me? The force I faced, I felt was DESIGNED to defeat mine. I killed 2 mechs, thanks to Dennis opening up the awesome, but there just wasn't time to complete the goals. 6 lights, 6 meds, 3 heavy mechs and a couple of tanks is a 'sensible' opponent vs Dennis, John and my own combined army imo for a scenario like this.
We are a fledgling merc company, and at this rate, we're all going to be disposesed before we make it off this rock :/
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Well, here is my two cents. I don't think BV is the issue here. The reason the games have not been winnable have a lot less to do with balance and a lot more to do with time. From what I could see at our table and what Dennis was saying about the state of forces at the second table I think the games were both winnable given sufficient time.
OTOH balance has a lot to do with the level of repairs required at the end of each game. When you have relatively balanced forces and relatively equally matched opponents then the winners are not going to be much better off than the losers in terms of repairs needed and damage will tend to be heavy on both sides in that scenario. It's only when luck and/or skill is heavily weighted to one side of the match where one side of a balanced game comes out relatively unscathed. My own losses in this last game were more than 1,500 SP. I've already decided it's not worth continuing and submitted a new force to start over with.
So if we are to be allowed to play with as much BV as we can pack into three (or two) units then we need to look at two things. First the goals need to be achievable within the time available for us to play. And second the repair costs (or the repairs themselves) need to be mitigated on a game by game basis. IMHO repair costs are out of hand currently based on the current balance of forces we've been using. Either costs need to go down or the damage dealt needs to go down I think. I'd personally prefer the former to the latter myself but something needs adjustment. Actually a third option is just to give players a bigger starting pot. 8,000 is an ok starting amount if you assume that no one is going to take losses for the first 4-5 games and players can bank 1000-2000 SP for upgrades and/or a new unit or two. Obviously that isn't the case. A bigger starting pot with more starting forces (or a bigger starting bank) would allow a player to absorb a heavy loss without having to resort to starting a new force entirely.
And I understand that you don't want players using customization to build an agent of ultimate destruction from game 1 and I agree with the sentiment it would be nice if we could at least refit for CASE as needed for new units so they don't blow up quite so much. O0
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No one wants to play and slaughter Joel while taking no damage, but neither do we wish to enter the field and be slaughtered. I think in both games played thus far, the opposition has been greater than need be, as a result of bv balance.
I'm setting the forces at a little under 90%, plus the opfor doesn't have Edge. It's not "balanced" as in "equal", it's "balanced as in "this is a winnable fight." It is a very fine line between "winnable" and "walkover," and that's also something that varies due to GM skill (e.g., had I fought the entire battle on my table in the middle where Justin's stealth assault 'mechs could shoot me every turn, it would have been a walkover).
No one should have their mech shot out from under them in the second game of a campaign.
We are a fledgling merc company, and at this rate, we're all going to be disposesed before we make it off this rock :/
I disagree. I need to pay you more, but the way Battletech the game works, you really have to destroy stuff. Focus fire wins battles. In lance-on-lance you'd lose a lot fewer units, but I think I was able to have over half of my force (8+ units) firing on Jim's Tbolt and Kellie's Sagittaire. If you want less focus-fire, you need to go with either a league format (player vs player, with GM overseeing -- that's how we did the last campaign a few years ago; the problem there is any sensical pay structure very quickly produces "haves" and "have-nots," a division that's hard to overcome later), or with players running only a single 'mech each (boring for everyone except the GM).
Well, here is my two cents. I don't think BV is the issue here. The reason the games have not been winnable have a lot less to do with balance and a lot more to do with time. From what I could see at our table and what Dennis was saying about the state of forces at the second table I think the games were both winnable given sufficient time.
Yep. On our table that untouched Pillager was going to be very hard to handle. The game probably would have ended with it and some of the jumpers from your left flank still standing (I'd bet I could've gotten you down to lance size or smaller, though). As I said a few posts ago (and you just reiterated), the base pay (win or lose) needs to go up. I do like the idea of a larger cushion, maybe "build force with X, and then here's Y as your bank account."
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Oh, and as to:
The force I faced, I felt was DESIGNED to defeat mine.
Nope. It was happenstance -- there were a few ECM units, and over half ended up on your table simple through luck of the draw (or rather lack of same), due to the people you sat with. It was perfectly possible for you to have one ECM suite on the opfor (I think the one assigned to you had one). Also, I'm not going to create a force full of horrible units, especially when I have to ask someone else to play half of them (it's not fun for them).
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I wasn't saying it was designed to defeat me, just that it felt that way... for clarification ;)
I feel the need to reiterate, however, that both games so far, have been a hellova lot of fun, and some of the best teamwork I've ever seen out of this group. I hope we find a way to make this campaign work, cos it's got real potential to knit this group together.
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3. Forced withdrawal - Nope. Not happening. "Intelligent forced withdrawal" will be in play, but not "Hey, our superheavy tank just got tracked, so let's all run out of the armor into the open field while abandoning our comrades." I'll be using pretty much the rules as written for 'mechs, but vehicles need that change or a massive BV cut. I'll go with "play logically" over messing with BV.
5. GM Forces - I don't like that fixed amount. It adds a *lot* of work, and while I appreciate the offer to make the forces, I really prefer to make them myself. (Make your own campaign, dammit! ;) ) Depending on scenario I'm going to bring logical opponents. (That said, I need to bring more infantry. It's not as easy as 'mechs/vehicles when using SSW/BFB, but some of you have bonus missions relying on killing infantry.) And who said all your opponents are militia?
TL;DR: I think the trick to making this campaign work is not in limiting the GM forces, but rather in making the payout work with the amount of damage the players are receiving.
@3. I'll continue to argue for it, LOL. I get the "smart withdrawal", really I do, but to me this one really does come down to balancing the GM "hive" mind.
Your just plain more effective to run all the units v/s us debating on best move & trying to have a "team" strategy. Not even counting the GM's skill level which is going to be higher than the "average" of all players on the table.
@5. See if I come up w/ an idea to take the load off of your shoulders again, pfft. ;)
You the one that said you wanted more numerous forces & 4>3.
It was just an idea to give you a leader w/ 3 minions of differing size & nothing says all forces have to match it, just an idea for the guys to follow.
As for "militia", I don't know, someone at the game mentioned that that was what the intent was, so I assumed you mentioned it on the Facebook thing that I'm not part of.
I thought Increasing Pay was something you were worried about, creating "haves & have nots" w/ feast or famine.
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Based on some discussion today over email about a "repairless" system here are the ideas I submitted to Joel for anyone that was not on the email.
(and yes I'm aware some of it was already discussed above but I hadn't see that & I'm not up for editing right now)
PAY, SALVAGE, GOALS:
Primary Mission Goal: 100 Marginal Victory (200 Decisive Level)
Completing this goal gives your Team a Victory & Possession of the Battle Field to allow for Salvage & Customization. (Could also allow for special rewards at GM discretion)
Secondary Mission Goal: 5-to-Tonnage award for individual success at special goal
(Could be a place for special rewards at GM discretion)
Working for Salvage:
Mission Kills, Captures, & Abandoned units can be salvaged on a Win.
Salvaged units award ½ Purchase Price in SP for the Team & can be purchased back by players to add to their forces. (This is the same as Joel’s current set up)
(See Support Units for Salvage on a Loss option)
Reduction in Enemy Forces:
Totally Destroyed units (Not Salvage) earn SP equal to Tonnage.
REPAIRS & HEALING: (Included in "contract" base bay, IE, no SP Cost, but you might loose time)
Light Repairs: (Non-Heavy) Are completed before the next attended game.
Heavy Repairs: (Anything Crippled or with a Critical Hit) Are completed after missing out on 1 attended game spent in the motor pool.
Healing:
At the end of each game any wounded personnel make a readiness roll for the next game.
If they pass they are “healed” if they don’t they are “recovering” for 1 game spent in the hospital.
The check is made on the MW consciousness table based on the # of “hits” the crew has taken.
Battle Armor Squad troopers lost = MW Hits
Vehicle Crews make rolls at 2 “hits” higher because they are limited to just 2 (7+, 10+)
Infantry Platoon Losses are Divided by 3 & Rounded Down to determine # of Hits & automatically miss 1 game at 6 “hits”
Bailing Out, Ejection, Surrender, & Ransoming:
During the End Phase any player unit can essentially signal defeat.
Mechwarriors also have the options of Auto Eject Enabled or Manual Eject at the end of any single phase during game play.
The conventions of war mean these units will not be shot up & can be removed from the field.
On a Win they are treated as only needing the level of repairs based on last condition.
On a Loss however they must be Ransomed back by the player at (10-25%) of the Purchase Price of a new unit & will miss a game from “Heavy” repairs & healing.
SUPPORT SERVICES:
MASH – Medical Vehicle:
Win/Loss – Treats all Crew Readiness Rolls as being 1 less hit.
Win – On a Win a MASH may reach your Dead MW/Vehicle Crew in time to save them with a 10+ Death Save = Auto Miss of next game.
Recovery (Cargo) Vehicles (TRO 3060):
Allows Salvage of 1 Unit of appropriate size on a Loss.
Repair Vehicle (Paramour, Jifty, Nifty, Savior, etc.)
Allows 1 Unit to reduce repair time from Heavy to Light.
Security Infantry: (Pure fluff here)
Non-Roster Grunts, this pool represents why infantry don’t get “destroyed” completely. (Promote from within)
This pool is in turn replenished by the many native population looking for the chance to be an “Interstellar Mercenary” just like “Wolf’s Dragoons” ;)
GM’s / GUEST GM’S:
GM Forces MUST follow the full rules for Forced Withdrawal.
Guest GMs will earn Awards as if they were a member of team facing Joel.
(This is in place since Rewards are now less & based more on combat/salvage)
GM Forces = 4 Units at no more than 85% of the BV of the Player Force.
Each of the 4 Units should be try to be close to 40, 20, 15, & 10 percent of the Player Force respectively
The GM force should average between 3G/4P & 4G/5P in average skill level with only the “leader” able to be better than 3G/4P.
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It sounds as if the "No-Repairs" system is most definitely going into effect.
The only way to really "loose" money will be having your unit Totally or Completely Destroyed.
So rule of thumb, don't be afraid to pull back, take cover, or if all else fails, eject before you die.
Which makes sense really.
It also looks like we are getting 1/2 Credit for Goal #1 & full credit for Goal #2 for a total of 400 SP last mission.
Add in Salvage & that should be a decent profit for some & balancing out losses for others.
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Must be psychic. I haven't seen anything in Facebook, here or email.
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I'm still thinking about a few numbers, but Dennis is mostly correct. Sorry, I don't reply to all by default, so you probably fell off any email threads unless you were asking questions. I'll have the rules updated and the next scenario written by Sunday night.
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Probably my bad in there too. I'm sure at some point I hit Reply instead of Reply All.
Could have also been at some point when I asked something unrelated & then got back on the subject of the campaign.
But I posted hear as a heads up for the folks that took some serious damage as update that at least some of that will not affect the SP bottom line.
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Just surprised to hear the rules were finalized when I hadn't seen any discussion on the matter is all.
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Must be psychic. I haven't seen anything in Facebook, here or email.
I don't think they all are.
I only posted a couple things that sounded pretty concrete based on answers to questions I had.
/looks up.
1. No SP cost for repairs
2. "Pay" for last mission's goals.
AFAIK, he's still mulling over a lot of the other stuff like......
Use of Support Vehicles
How Goals will be set
Pay for said goals
Games missed for Healing
Games missed for Repairs
Each Level of Repairs
Alterations to Forced Withdrawal
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2. "Pay" for last mission's goals.
And I think you misunderstood what I said about that, too. ;) You're getting paid some, but not as much as you posted. If I'm not charging you for repairs, pay goes down. (I wouldn't have decreased it if you had completed the missions, but since this is all GM fiat, I'm going to fiat my evil little heart out.)
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Updated rules (v3.2) are up: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing)
Pay for last mission: 300 SP, no salvage. (This is for simplicity's sake. There's going to be enough re-auditing as it is.)
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And I think you misunderstood what I said about that, too. ;) You're getting paid some, but not as much as you posted. If I'm not charging you for repairs, pay goes down. (I wouldn't have decreased it if you had completed the missions, but since this is all GM fiat, I'm going to fiat my evil little heart out.)
Your right, I was confused, which is why I asked for clarifications...
On 9/15/2016 6:31 PM, Dennis wrote:
So your saying 1/2 Credit (200 of the 400) for the Kills & then Full Credit for the Hold the Field (200) ?
For a total of 400 Pay & then access to Salvage & Customization for completing 1 objective?
And that applies to both tables?
On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Joel wrote:
400 yes. Salvage not sure -- there wasn't much on my table, and I need to make some kind of easy record-keeping apparatus for GMs.
"I'm not crazy my mother had me tested" :P
But no matter, 100 is nothing really, its all just a game & I think the repairless SP is going to work a lot better for the mechs that were "tanking" O0 O0
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Ended up being 300, no salvage. Already up on the Google Sheets page, though there are some other bookkeeping errors I have to fix.
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Scenario: Cutting Off the Retreat
Game Depot, October 1 @ 1pm
Scenario Basics:
BV limit: 2500 (only applies for forces not submitted by Thursday)
Unit max: 2 (applies to all forces; carried infantry does not count against this total)
Unit limitation: Units 5/8 or faster may deploy anywhere on the map before the first turn. Units moving 4/6 may move on to the players’ home edge on turn 3. Units 3/5 or slower may enter the battle on turn 5. (The escaping enemy forces will be entering from the opposite edge on turn 1.)
Victory Condition 1 (100 SP per player): Prevent at least half (by number) of the enemy forces from escaping. Escaped crippled units count for half.
Victory Condition 2 (100 SP per player): Prevent at least 75% (by tonnage) of the enemy forces from escaping. Escaped crippled units count for half.
Salvage: Yes
Terrain: The battle will be played on a 4'x6' table (2" hexes) with small hills, light forestation, and a road. The short edges will be the "home" edges, but some setup will be on the board. We'll have at least two tables, and will split players evenly between the tables so that we don't have more than four players per table.
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Hey, everyone. I think I'm actually going to be able to make this one since it doesn't conflict with my every-other-Saturday Star Wars game!
I've got a question about the upcoming scenario: are units that have...variable (cough)...movement rates able to be pre-placed on the map prior to game start if the unit is capable of getting up to 5/8?
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No, sorry -- it's a sustained chase, not a sprint, so MASC and TSM don't count.
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Drats, foiled again!
While I believe a case could be made for the ability to keep TSM running for the duration of a chase, I'm not sure what the effects of running at high heat for such a long time would be on the pilot or the equipment. Probably unsustainable unless the manufacturer builds in extra cooling units in the cockpit and other special equipment.
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That was my thinking. Easier to just say "no" then to come up with something like "+1/+1 to the mechwarrior's skills, and one crit roll on a random location."
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Hmm, interesting.
I could almost see the argument for a 4/6 TSM mech maintaining 5/8 for a long period with heat management.
Not that it makes much sense to run around shooting up the landscape every turn. But I guess you could shut off all the heatsinks & then turn 1 back on once you hit 9 to maintain movement.
MASC is clearly a bad idea since even at 1/36 chance every other turn that means after a few minutes of on/off use that your likely to seize up something.
Given the way they talk about heat in a mech just from running the reactor at 0-heat on the scale, I don't imagine 9 being much worse. Actually I wonder what each point on a heat scale translates into?
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Is it sad that I want access to a clan omni... not for the clan part, but for the variety of omnis?
Seriously, I'm searching for an IS Omni for the last couple days & nothing is fitting what I'm looking for.
Did the IS make any Omni's after the Celestials? Something from the Jihad era or later?
Because the 1st wave of IS stuff just isn't covering what I'm looking for ATM.
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There are several in 3145. There is a Centurion omni and the Gauntlet which I really like except it needs more space but nothings perfect. I think there are a few others in there but they mixed Clan and IS units so I'm not sure if the others are IS omnis. I'd have to check.
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The Centurion and potentially the Gun are decent, but the IS still doesn't have a full roster of decent mechs aside from the Celestials.
I keep wishing there'd be a release where the ROtS made a new version of the Celestials much like they did with the Bolla, but chances are very slim.
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Thanks, I knew about the Centurion-O but it seemed too small.
I looked up that Gauntlet & it is the closest thing that I have found to what I'm looking for.
Basically I'm looking for something kind of Warwulf-ish for the IS, but not finding anything like that.
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I see what you mean:
- Men Shen, but due to its speed it probably doesn't have enough pod space.
- Perseus is probably closest, except it's not 5/8
- Templar III ditto
- Vandal I thought was perfect, but then I realized that despite being marked Standard tech, the Prime still carries an Angel ECM
That said, if I were playing instead of running I'd definitely take a Men Shen.
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- Vandal I thought was perfect, but then I realized that despite being marked Standard tech, the Prime still carries an Angel ECM
I found this but its more than just the ECM.
CASE-II, VSP-Lasers, SuperCharger, Boosted C3......... All that stuff was not allowed, or so I thought.
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Correct - I just stopped reading when I saw the Angel.
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The post-Jihad tech level changes for various equipment has really muddied the waters. The MUL has the Vandal Prime listed as standard but the Large VSP is still advanced as far as I know. Everything else would be considered standard tech in its native era.
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I really do like both the Centurion-O and the Gauntlet. I do wish with the Gauntlet that they had foregone the LFF armor and made up the difference with a half ton of pod space. It would have allowed a lot more flexibility IMO.
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Its a shame about the tech level on the Vandal because that thing is as close to what I am looking for of anything out there.
I could skip almost all the advanced tech on it with a custom pod load.
I think the Supercharger is the only thing that is "fixed" on it.
Though it apparently has a Torso-Cockpit which I don't really like.
Still, the size, speed, & pod space is nice.
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Evidently there is a THIRD tech change list in IntOps. I find that highly annoying. >:(
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I don't, Well, I do, but if that 3rd change essentially is to get rid of experimental/advanced so that come 3150 everything is legal, then I don't.
Either keep things simple (3067) or let it all in, but I'm not of 3090 where some stuff has moved up but only some & some moved 1 rank but others 2, etc etc.
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My problem isn't with what they move. They can move whatever they want to whatever level for all I care. What I do care about is that I already bought 2 TRO's already primarily to get the list of tech changes now I find out there is a freaking third book I have to buy if I want the complete list. That torques me off more than a little bit.
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I'm still waiting for the next super-tech jump where all existing tech is obsolete & everything has been combined into super items.
I want my Demolisher with Twin Rotary-Ultra-Light-Caseless-HighVelocity-Clan-LubalinExperimental-Class 20 AC's
That will conveniently be the same weight as the original AC20 & yet do all those extra fun things. >:D
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Joel,
I just sent my force selection and starting TOE to you via the email option from the forums since I seem to have misplaced your email address and didn't find it in the campaign rules document. Hope it gets to you in time for the cut-off.
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EDIT: Apparently, I fail at reading comprehension.
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That was a very fun game. With almost the entire combat consisting of point-blank fire and physical attacks (at least for the table I was at), it felt very 3025-ish.
Also, that Legionnaire's survival was epic. It reminded me of the intro to Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at9hxU864Fg
(Those who haven't seen it, make sure to watch until the end.)
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Agreed it was a fun game. The 2nd table wasn't quite as point blank but the shots that mattered all came inside 6 hexes.
A quick after action of the West-Table.
GM Forces (South) (A very "DMM" feel as all 8 mechs were FS/DC based)
Victor-11D
GrassHopper-6K
Bombardier-14K
Grand Dragon-5K
Dervish-9D
Enforcer-III-6Ma
Centurion-D4D
Hollander-F3
Regulator-Standard
Beagle-Standard
Player Forces (North) (Set up inside 1st 12 Hexes)
Archangel-Eminus (Arriving Turn 5)
Goliath-4S (Arriving Turn-3)
Barghest-3T
Gurkha-8G
Griffin-5L
Wolfhound-5
Sprint-C3i
Purifier-Laser (Arriving Turn-5)
The Players all set up right at the 12 Hex range band, slightly east, in some woods & moved forward quickly on turn 1. Fire was exchanged but most of it missed.
I think I managed to land something like 11 points of scattered LRM damage on the Barghest on turn 1.
Turn 2 got a bit more interesting as the players started to split their forces & headed towards the middle of the map. The GM Forces didn't boast tons of long range firepower & my roles were pretty crappy.
By turn 3 things started to get interesting as fire was beginning to really get thrown around & some of it landed.
However the Barghest hiding behind a hill managed to avoid a lot of it thanks to the hill.
The 2 lights continued to be hard to shoot at at +3/+4 every turn.
**Note, it took about 4-5 turns before we realized the Gurkha pilot was running around at 9/14 not using TSM correctly & should only have been 8/12. That might have changed a few moves & could have kept the Regulator alive as it took a TSM kick into the side & was immobilized that might not have happened w/o the extra 2MP every turn.
Goliath comes on from the back of the board.
Regulator spend Turn-4 being stunned & immobile.
Also in Turn-4 the Hollander was de-legged by a kick from the Gurkha. (Also might not have happened?)
The Barghest takes the brunt of damage as several mechs unleash on it. But its still standing
The Victor, GrassHopper, GrandDragon, & Dervish make an abrupt turn Right & suddenly the Goliath looks about to be run over. Victor takes HGR to the RtLeg (the first of many)
Turn-5
The assault on the Goliath takes a bad turn.
The Victor is stopped cold as it ends up between the 2 quads at 6 hexes each & both land HGR shots that hit the same RL from last turn. Combined with other fire this shears off the leg, rips open the torso, & hits the RAC ammo. Suddenly my pristine assault mech is on the ground crippled w/ an unconscious pilot after Head Hit, Feedback, & Fall leaves him failing the Nappytime check of 10. He never wakes up before end of game.
Gurkha hammers into the Grasshopper from behind & does TSM kick.
The Barghest is finally a smoking ruin from repeated MML/SRM strikes from the Bombardier while the Enforcer is trying to make the Wolfhound pay for picking on the downed Hollander in the backfield.
Beagle zooms off the board this turn going right past the Archangel with a 'wave'.
Centurion tosses some long ranged fire at the Archangel & connects with the LRM for the first time all game.
(It spent the entire game firing 2 of 3 weapons each turn thanks to the 10 SHS & never hitting w/ more than 1)
Goliath has a stripped RA-RFL from massive stacked damage but is still going.
Regulator Crew bails out w/o firing.
Turn-6
The Grasshopper gets to the flank of the Goliath & removes that RFL, but again has the Gurkha in its back arc w/ TSM kick & actually manages to knock it over.
Both GrandDragon & Dervish head out wide on opposite flanks to avoid having to go through the Archangel that is camped in the middle of the goal line. They each trade some long ranged sniping fire wile lining up to leave the board.
Turn-7
Dervish & GrandDragon both head off the board.
Grasshopper gets Delegged by HGR from Goliath.
Gurkha survives being sandwiched by the Bombardier & Enforcer.
Game Ends
GM Forces Status
Escaped = Beagle, Centurion, Dervish, GrandDragon
Fully Functional = Bombardier, Enforcer
De-Legged = Victor (Sleeping), Grasshopper, Hollander
Abandoned = Regulator
Player Forces Status
Barghest = Mission Destroyed (3 Engine Hits)
Goliath = Missing Leg
Wolfhound = Hip Crit (4/6MP)
Gurkha = Heavy Armor Damage?
Archangel, Griffin, Purifiers = Minor Armor Damage?
Sprint = Un-hit
Salvage: (Less "quality" salvage on this table but it was in better condition for more SP earned)
Regulator-Abandoned-Crippled
Victor-Asleep-Crippled
342 SP in Salvage Earned for each Player (V/S 242 Each for a Mission-Destroyed Flashman & Thunder)
JR is declined to salvage either unit.
JD has declined the Regulator but is bidding on the Victor.
JB was not around to bid so we'll have to ask him if we wants to bid on either by email.
If JB bids on Victor we will need to have a dice off.
If JB declines the Regulator then it will be up for bid by the "Eastern" table players that were facing Joel
Thoughts on mission balance:
When first planning on this game as a Player I felt it was going to be nigh unwinnable.
The delay for 3/5 units meant fast movers were gone before they arrived.
I expected to see 30-40% 5-6 walking mp & 60-70% be 7+ which would have been hard to stop.
Then I saw the units chosen for GM's & now I'm not sure that the players could have NOT gotten at least the 1st goal.
Having your 3rd fastest unit be 6/9 on a breakthrough mission was iffy.
Having there be no clear paths across the board w/o terrain in the way, also iffy
Having a pair of 4 MP mechs was Really iffy. (That 1 of them was armed w/ mostly Range-6 guns = Bad)
Honestly, Each of the above is a small issue, combined they became a larger one.
To balance this one out wouldn't take much work.
1. Loose the 4MP mechs or at least make them things that put out some firepower at range.
(Maybe Marauder-5D & Penetrator would have been a better combo to handle the mission)
(Having Falconer + Thanatos would have been even better as 5/8 mechs)
2. Not had hills blocking movement on both sides all the way to the side of the map but left at least 1-hex path to allow people to make breaks for the edges w/o being Very slow or being channeled into the gauntlet of fire in the middle.
3. Include 1 fast mover of 7+ MP in each player force.
Its not much but I think it would have made for a solid give/take from what I feared I'd see v/s what ended up seeing.
It also occurs to me that movement might be sped up a bit if there weren't so many different large vision blocking options to choose from, I saw a lot of move delay searching for the best position or way to deal w/ terrain.
Having now sat on the GM side here is what I learned for the campaign:
I fully agree w/ previous GM comments about the use of edge.
The amount of edge is excessive.
Using Edge to avoid a lucky round 2 gauss headcap is one thing, and I'm in favor of it.
But there was so much edge on my table that players were able to burn it to just avoid getting kicked when they lost initiative & got someone next to them or because shots are coming in from the rear (/gasp).
I also don't think you should get to edge the same roll twice if it gets made the 2nd time, seriously, that was just BS IMO & the game would have been Very different had they been limited to 1 point each.
If we are going to continue with free edge for players, I think the GM should be able to have say 1 point per player force to use as well.
That or go back to the old mini's rule where you had to own the mini. (Point was to trigger sales after all)
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Results sent to players via email.
I agree with Dennis' thoughts on Edge. Here are my planned rules changes, unless anyone has a compelling argument against:
1. Combined forces. Since we didn't get a good test on the combined forces rules I'm letting it stand for next game; however, I suspect I'll get rid of it due to the havoc an absence can cause, as well as the fact that we already have people who really want to play together, further complicating the dividing into teams.
2. Edge. I'm getting really tired of offensive edge usage due to it being the last round. Additionally, defensive use means that the GM isn't going to waste fire on hard-to-hit targets, since success means just burning their edge; this unfairly shifts fire towards lower-defense units. I think now that repairs are just time, I'm going to change it to one edge per force, plus the usual one for a painted, correct miniature. (Note that the miniature's edge is only for that model.) Additionally, there will be no offensive use of edge after 5pm. If you disagree, email me, but be prepared to make a good case.
3. Reduction in pilot improvement costs. I may change the formula to use a cubic instead of squared increase. That will allow 3/4 pilots to be cheaper while still keeping the (IMNSHO game-breaking) uber-skills expensive.
As for the force composition, I was trying not to be that jerk who just sprints everything off the board in three turns. However I didn't do a good job of splitting fast/slow (some forces were flat-out slower than others), and I really did need more faster units. Not that that would have changed much on my table. (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, INITIATIVE DICE!)
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Question on claiming salvage and repairs. If a mech has to be out for multiple games anyway can they be refitted at the same time?
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So long as the refit is in the allowed level, yes. If your force is moving, limiting you to A & B refits only, that's all you can do while rebuilding.
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I figured if it is going out for multiple games for repairs it is going to be at least sitting in a maintenance bay somewhere and eligible for a higher level refit. Though the repair rules are annoyingly a lot less specific on facilities than customization is.
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Quit trying to bring realism into my giant robot game. :D
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If your out a game or 2 you might as well wait to see what those games bring.
The only way it can back fire is if you skip a CD month hoping for EF the next & then it goes back to AB.
For example.
October-AB
November-ABCD
December-AB
You don't get to wait till December & then say you want to do a CD because you were "hoping" for EF to show up & it didn't.
I forget Joe's specific wording in an email to me, but I think he said CD would be available every 2 or 3 games & then EF would be every 6 games or so.
Given the cost of EF being as much as buying a brand new Mech/Vechicle, I'm not planning on doing many of them since its just going to be a boatload of SP when you do.
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Campaign Scenario for November 5:
Airfield Raid
BV limit: 2500
Unit max: 2 + Carried Infantry
Victory Condition 1 (200 SP per player): Destroy Control Tower.
Victory Condition 2 (200 SP per player): Destroy Repair Hangar.
Secondary Objective: Destroy a hangar (25 SP per player per hangar).
Salvage: 0 (The presence of nearby enemy reinforcements prevents holding the field.)
Intel:
The enemy has maintained partial air superiority for too long. Command has risked several dropships in a feint to draw enemy fighters away from their base; you are to hit it hard and destroy everything you can. Expect to face infantry and emplaced guns, as well as a quick reaction force of ‘mechs and tanks.
Salvage: While we expect enemy reinforcements to prevent salvaging fallen enemies, any disabled unit (friendly or enemy) that can be dragged clear of the fighting should be recoverable. (See p99, TacOps.)
Building destruction: In addition to direct fire, unopposed infantry inside a structure can place demolition charges (assumed to be carried for this mission). This takes at least one full round inside the building; once emplaced, the charges can be triggered at any time. Demolition charges deal 1 point per 2 troopers per round spent setting the charges. Damage from charges set by battlearmor is 2 points per trooper per round due to the heavier charges they can carry.
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Secondary Objective: Destroy a hangar (25 SP per player per hangar).
The way this is worded is making me wonder.
Is that for everyone on the team? Or just the player that did the killing?
IF, it is for a single player, then, how do you determine if something is group fired on?
Finally, are they "Light" structures so for 15 damage we shouldn't be "group" firing on them anyway?
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25 SP to all players for each hangar destroyed.
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Salvage: While we expect enemy reinforcements to prevent salvaging fallen enemies, any disabled unit (friendly or enemy) that can be dragged clear of the fighting should be recoverable. (See p99, TacOps.)
I mentioned this in an email.
But is this supposed to be we actually drag the mech off the field?
Or are you just saying units that "could" fit the qualifiers to be dragged, can be saved, if we have draggers.
So, Bringing mechs w/ Hands is good, but, do we have to stop combat early & get them off the field?
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So long as you have the capability of dragging them, you're good. If you run out of hands, you have to leave them.
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Eastern Table Rundown
Player Forces (5 Mechs, 1 Tank, 3 BA Squads)
Ontos (Fusion)-Command (4/5)
BattleMaster-M3 (4/5)
Hammerhands-6D (3/4)
Shadow Hawk-9D (3/4)
Wolverine-9W2 (3/4)
Firestarter-O-P (4/5)
Taranis BA (4/5)
Marauder BA (4/5)
Marauder BA (4/5)
GM Forces (7 Mechs, 3 Gun Emplacements, 3 Infantry Platoons)
Thug-12K
Zeus-9T
Jagermech-7F
Blitzkrieg-3F (3/5)
PhoenixHawk-4W
Wolfhound-4WA
Javelin-11F
3* Jihad Turrets
3* Infantry Platoons
Game lasted 6 turns & should have been easy but turned out to be quite difficult given the range of the player units and the shear # of ECM suites in the GM force, officially topping out at SEVEN, a new record I think for any game in 30 years of playing.
The only GM unit on the board that was destroyed was the Jagermech via massed fire leading to ammo explosion. Side torso destruction, a record setting 8 pilot hits means it was down for the count but was able to be dragged off by 2 of our 3-4 mechs with hand actuators. Also dead was some infantry inside the destroyed Control Tower &/or Repair Bay Hanger.
The Battlemaster was massively hurting & the Hammerhands had taken quite a bit too, Firestarter had lost the right arm with most the firepower.
None of the support hangers were destroyed as we only managed to take out the repair bay hanger in the final seconds of the game.
Earned SP = 517 Each
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WEST TABLE RUN DOWN
Somone feel free to add some more info that actually played on the West table, most of this is from a few tidbits that were mentioned across the tables.
Player Forces x4 (7 Mechs, 1 Tank, 2 BA Squads)
King Crab
Goliath-4S
Marauder
Avatar-Yankee
Blackhawk KU-Prime
Griffin-5L
Wolverine-8K
Alacorn-VI
IS Standard BA-MG
IS Standard BA-MG
GM Forces (I have no idea what they faced)
Outcome: 475 SP Earned Per Player-MG
Both goals completed for 400SP earned.
Added bonus of 75 for 3 smaller hangers destroyed.
Players lost the Goliath & Alacorn from what I heard.
No Salvage because they were dragging off the Goliath that got killed.
The Goliath-4S took a headcap & the Commander of that force died.
Luckily mechs can be repaired & CO's can be replaced unlike LT's.
Also the Alacorn was not being played by the owner but by a guest player who had no force.
So all in all the only thing it should cost is some repair time.
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On the West table, the players pushed forward strongly on their left, concentrating their forces. I ran a few faster 'mechs around the hill to their right, threatening their flank, and they pivoted to force them back while a few long-range units fired on one of the gun turrets. That's when I reminded them of their objectives -- they could chase my inferior flanking force with heavy 'mechs all they wanted, but they might get paid more if they did what they were sent to do. 8) After that, they took the front of the hill and the woods in front of that, using their long-range superiority to wipe out the target buildings. In order to get the one on their right they had to push into my flanking force, but in so doing they left the Goliath and Alacorn unsupported. My primary defense force pushed up, killed those two, and now they were the flanking force. After a few rounds of fire the players barely finished killing the repair hangar and called a truce to recover their lost assault 'mech (sans commander, as you mentioned) and withdraw, as I'd put enough damage on several other 'mechs that they were going to start losing them in another round or two. While they'd have done the same for mine, they lacked 'mechs capable of dragging off wrecks, as you mentioned. (I didn't lose any units, BTW.)
GM Units:
3x Jihad Heavy Firebase (I just realized I didn't add another when we late-added a fourth player)
3x SRM Infantry (Ditto, but they were never revealed as the players never got within their range)
Sentinel 5WB
Centurion Ar
Grand Dragon 5K
Scorpion light tank
Archer 6S
Partisan heavy tank
JagerMech III D4
Marauder II 5B
Hoplite 4Cb
Thunderbolt 5Sb
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So the Jägermech is up for grabs? I'd take it if I can.
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I plan on salvaging it.
GM Units:
Centurion Ar
Marauder II 5B
I always love seeing my favorite versions of a mech on the battlefield. That Mad-II is a beast.
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I enjoyed this Airfield raid and it's good to be getting back in to BattleTech! I won't be there for the December game because of the holidays, but I should be there for the January game.
One thing I'd like to see, is more background for our battles. I mean who were we fighting for/against in this airfield raid? What's the narrative for the campaign? RotS is charging out of the Fortress and we're working for the Houses to try and keep their planets? We're fighting off Dracs pouring into the Suns, we are the Dracs?
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I've been deliberately leaving backstory out of this, since there are no faction or era restrictions on people's forces. Once I start setting games on a particular planet at a particular time, I'll have to start dealing with the, "But that 'mech couldn't be here -- it wasn't made for another 5 years!"
Also, I've been running scenarios with exact background, era, faction, etc. for a few years. You just came back after the pendulum swung the other way. 8)
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Lol just my luck :P
Though isn't the point of 3150 to basically do just that? Allow stories with all the toys and a blank canvas to use them on?
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Lol just my luck :P
Though isn't the point of 3150 to basically do just that? Allow stories with all the toys and a blank canvas to use them on?
If we played in 3150 then we'd also have to deal with all the tech changes that's occurred by that time. A lot of advanced and experimental equipment that becomes tournament level equipment by that point. That's a can of worms that I think Joel prefers not to open at this time.
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I'd love to see an improvement to the MUL that changes the tech level depending on the selected era. But in addition to that, changing rules (or, rather, learning new ones) can be hard on beginners, and I'm doing my best to keep my games accessible to new players.
That said, I'll see if I can come up with some era- and location-independent backstory going forward.
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One thing I'd like to see, is more background for our battles. I mean who were we fighting for/against in this airfield raid? What's the narrative for the campaign? RotS is charging out of the Fortress and we're working for the Houses to try and keep their planets? We're fighting off Dracs pouring into the Suns, we are the Dracs?
For all the reason's Joel mentioned that is going to be difficult & unlikely.
When thinking about the same subject, the total amount of what I'd come up with is.....
1. We are all mercs of the same unit.
2. Its a large unit just based on our Rosters alone.
3. We've worked for nearly everyone hence the diversity of equipment.
4. Its fairly far in the future since we some new tech but not clan tech/experimental tech.
5. The preponderance of C3i in our forces likely means we had access to a scrapyard of old WoB crap.
6. While large we are the lower end of the supply chain as seen by #4 above.
Year is at least 3123 but probably before most of the current timeline stuff happens, at best early blackout & we are possibly our own "Dark Age" faction that went rogue/merc like Banson that includes planetary militia that raided an older cache of WoB gear.
When you look our forces most everything is Jihad or older.
I think a few BA, my Taranis-3123 & your Marauders-3110, are the only truly "New" unit that anyone fields.
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Ok, not trying to be difficult and I certainly don't fully get the whole tech shift yet so I'll take your guyses word for it.
I do like Hellraisers ideas, though I think a Merc alliance, like what the Dragoons put together to fight the Wobbies, makes more sense and allows us to have our own unique Merc units and still work jobs together.
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White Elephant Battlemech Exchange
Mission Synopsis: The term "White Elephant" is derived from a past practice of the kings of what is now Thailand. When annoyed with someone, they would give them a white elephant. No one would give away a gift from the king, but its upkeep would ruin them. In modern English the term is used to mean an expensive, useless gift. In the world of Battletech, we're using this as a way to play any battlemech you want... but you have to give a more expensive 'mech to the enemy!
Date & Time: Saturday, December 17th. We are scheduled to start at 1:00pm; last round will be called at about 6:00pm.
Unit selection: Miniatures & record sheets for pre-made forces will be provided, but players are encouraged to bring their own forces, created in accordance with the rules below.
Choose one unit to keep. This may be any canon Standard technology Inner Sphere Battlemech. Note its base Battle Value (BV2).
Choose one unit to give away. This will also be a canon Standard technology Inner Sphere Battlemech. Its base Battle Value must be equal to or higher than the ‘mech you keep. (Note that you're only giving away the record sheet, not the miniature! The miniature exchange is a separate event -- see below.)
Gunnery/Piloting skills for all 'mechs will be G3/P4 or G4/P3 (player's choice -- not the gift-giver's).
Assembled miniatures that exactly match your force (i.e., no proxies) will grant you the use of one point of Edge, usable only on your "keeper" 'mech. This does not apply to forces provided by the GM.
Terrain and setup description: The battle will be held on a 4’ x 6’ map (2” hexes) representing rolling hills surrounding a small urban area. The two (randomly-determined) sides will move onto the board from the short edges on round 1.
Victory Conditions: The side with the most ‘mechs in the city at the end of the game wins. Crippled units count as half, and units entering the city on the last round also count as half (this is cumulative).
Special Rules: With a few exceptions, only Total Warfare rules will be used.
There is no “edge of the world.” If a mech is up against a map edge, the three hexes that would be surrounding the mech off the board are now legal hexes for movement; occupying any of those hexes opens up more hexes, etc.
The following rules from Tactical Operations will be used: Floating Crits, Sprinting, Evading, Crawling, Careful Stand, Firing When Down, ECCM, Expanded Backward Movement, Expanded Stacking, Gauss Shut Off, Active Probe Targeting, Retractable Blades.
Miniature Exchange: This part is optional! Bring a painted Battletech miniature. (It doesn't have to be a 'mech, but if it's a tank that came in a multi-pack, include all the tanks from the pack.) Then everyone who brought a miniature gets to pick one. (Picking order to be determined -- I'm leaning toward having the non-participants judge the minis, and giving the best painters first pick, but I might just go random.)
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After months of IS campaign I have just one thing to say...........sigh......... No Clan Tech ??????
Everyone thinks its crazy when I give away mechs with Clan ERPPCs & Targetting computers !!! >:D >:D >:D
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I've done the gift exchange with Clan tech before, and it didn't go well -- with the extra firepower, and so many designs that give up armor, it's pretty easy to kill the glass cannon you gave away on round 2. After that battle, most of those who'd been asking for Clan tech agreed that I'd been right. O0
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The Warhawk-C has NEVER been described as a GLASS CANNON in 25 years. Shame on you!
I'm ignoring the fact that the Hellbringer-Prime has & I gave that one away too, hehehe >:D >:D
I never felt clan tech was the issue, instead it was the fact that some brought a Light pair & others brought an Assault pair & having a crap light is not the same as a crap assault.
Seems like what we need is not a tech restriction but a BV area margin, or, allow any skill you want to boost BV into the same bracket range.
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Or just play Inner Sphere, where lights aren't so completely overmatched. >:D
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I was referring to IS lights.
A Javelin is still a Javelin no matter how much you sup it up it not going to take down a Nightstar :)
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Campaign Game
Scenario: Dropship Recovery
Location: Game Depot, January 21 @ 1pm
Scenario Basics:
BV limit: 2500 (only applies for forces not submitted at least 48 hours before the game)
Unit max: 3 (applies to all forces; carried infantry does not count against this total)
Unit limitation: Units 5/8 or faster may deploy on the map. Units moving 4/6 may move on to the players’ home edge on turn 3. Units 3/5 or slower may enter the battle on turn 5.
Victory Condition 1 (200 SP per player): Allied infantry controls the dropship
Victory Condition 2 (200 SP per player): No non-crippled enemy units within weapons range of the dropship
Secondary Objective: Destroy enemy support vehicles (25 SP to each player per vehicle).
Salvage: Yes
Intel: A friendly dropship was forced down near your operational area. Your orders are to put together a quick strike force that can reach it before the enemy does... or at least before they can repair and recover it.
Force Composition: See the campaign rules: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/19OwgNoldoGaAGuujXkLKuiRNB88Vc6j2SWOeKnsTuCE/edit?usp=sharing)
Force Composition, Short Version: Create a mercenary force according to the rules (or ask the GM for one). Pick three units from that force to bring to the battle. (If you submit these to the GM by Thursday there is no BV limit. After that, max 2500 BV.)
Terrain: The battle will be played on a 4'x6' table (2" hexes) with small hills, light forestation, and a downed dropship near one end. Setup will be along the short edges. We'll have at least two tables, and will split players evenly between the tables so that we don't have more than four players per table.
Salvage Changes
The rules have been updated. All salvaged units are now auctioned off between all interested players (from any table). The proceeds are split between the capturing players as normal.
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I'd like to suggest a change in the set up rules.
The way it reads now, I predict that neither table will get Victory Condition #2
The placement of the DS at the end, small overall playing area, & the late arrival of slow units will make that a 0% possibility, IMO. There is simply no way to remove all targets from "Weapon Range" on that map.
My suggestions to make it a small chance of success while keeping the same feel:
1. Move up DS location to 1/2 way point on map.
2. Change deployment times from turn 1-3-5 to turns 1-2-3
3. Change "Weapons Range" to be "6 hexes".
With these changes I still don't think its likely that anyone gets the #2 goal, but, at least it might give them a small chance at it.
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Your concerns are noted, but it won't be as bad as you think (i.e., the GM isn't a total ******, and the scenario doesn't necessarily tell you everything). Well, it won't unless people persist in bringing slow assault 'mechs even when the description basically begs them not to.
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The Assault Mechs issue is only 1 of 3 that I see is a major issue.
As I'm reading it, even a single Assassin, Wolfhound, Talon, etc etc in the enemy force is enough to trigger an auto-loose on this maps size.
I see no way to cripple 100% of the enemy in "weapons range" when the map is only 36 hexes long & LRMs reach 21 hexes.
But we'll see.
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Well Joel usually knows what he's doing... O:-)
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the scenario doesn't necessarily tell you everything).
Is it not telling us that the Dropship still has fully functional weapons & is vaporizing enemy units every turn & they are actively running away from it? ^-^ Hehe.
Because otherwise I'm just not seeing the entire enemy force getting outside of their own weapons range of the DS.
New questions.
1. How is "Infantry Control" of the DS going to be determined?
2. How many & what kind of "support vehicles" are the bonus objectives?
3. How are GM forces deployed?
It doesn't say from what I can see. Enter map Turn-1? On the board already? If so in what area?
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Your intelligence is imperfect, and your orders are as given. Do your best to follow them, and you'll be declared the winner if you play well.
(I.e., I'm not going to spell everything out exactly - even the victory conditions - because I don't want the scenario "gamed.")
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Sorry, that was perhaps a bit brusque. My point is that I try to run these more like an RPG than a wargame -- that is to say, I need wiggle room to keep it fun for everyone. If I explicitly state every option, and someone doesn't bring exactly what they need, no one has fun.
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I don't believe I'm trying to "game" the system.
I'm trying to avoid another situation of people leaving for the day thinking they had no chance to accomplish 1 or even both of the goals in the short time we have allotted to play.
Which is usually about 4 hours with set up & tear down & ends up being all of 6-7 turns. (5-10 anyway)
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WEST TABLE - GAME #5 - CAPTURE THE DROPSHIP
3 PLAYER FORCES ENTER FROM THE NORTH.
3 GM FORCES ENTER FROM THE SOUTH.
PLAYERS FORCES: 7 MECHS, 2 VEHICLE, 3 INFANTRY = 12 TOTAL UNITS
RIFLEMAN-6X (3/4)
CENTURION-D5 (3/4)
UZIEL-8S (3/5)
INFILTRATOR-II-MAGNETIC "SQUAD" (4/5)
CHAMPION-3P (REFIT-TC/ECM)
HUSSAR-500D (REFIT-ERLL/ECM)
KARNOV-BA
INFILTRATOR-II-MAGNETIC "SQUAD" (4/5)
WOLVERINE-8C (4/5)
WOLFHOUND-4W (3/4)
HAWKMOTH-LB10X (4/5)
INFILTRATOR-II-MAGNETIC "SQUAD" (4/5)
GM FORCES: 5 MECHS, 5 VEHICLES, 6 APCS, 6 INFANTRY = 22 TOTAL UNITS
WARHAMMER-8M
GUILLOTINE-8D
THUNDERBOLT-9SE
CATAPULT-K4K
PANTHER-12K
PATTON-ORIGINAL
2* VEDETTE-RAC
2* SAVANNAH MASTER-ORIGINAL
3* HEAVY HOVER APC-LRM
3* HEAVY TRACKED APC-ORIGINAL
3* FOOT INFANTRY - MOC
3* MOTORIZED INFANTRY - LYRAN HEAVY
DEATH / DAMAGE / CRIPPLES
PLAYERS:
INFILTRATOR-II-MAGNETIC "SQUAD" (4/5) - J.B. (DEAD - OUT 1 GAME TO HEAL)
INFILTRATOR-II-MAGNETIC "SQUAD" (4/5) - JAS. (DEAD - OUT 1 GAME TO HEAL)
GM:
CRIPPLED / ABANDONED
2* VEDETTE-RAC (MIN SALVAGE = 250 EACH)
PATTON-ORIGINAL (MIN SALVAGE = 244)
TOTAL BASE SALVAGE = 744 = 248/PLAYER
OBJECTIVES:
1- INFANTRY CONTROL OF DROPSHIP = 0
2- CONTROL OF BATTLEFIELD AREA = 100 (1/2 AWARD BASED ON POTENTIAL TO GO EITHER WAY IN TIME)
3- 1 HOVER APC CRIPPLED = 25
BASE SP/PLAYER AWARD = 373 (MAY GO UP BASED ON SALVAGE BIDS)
THIS IS A QUICKY UPDATE FROM MEMORY
I'LL CHECK THE RS IN THE AM AFTER I SLEEP GIVE THE PLAY BY PLAY
INITIAL REVIEW IS, WAY TOO MANY UNITS & INFANTRY IN THE GM FORCES, STILL WORKING ON BALANCE ISSUES THERE.
MY SUGGESTION WOULD HAVE BEEN TO CUT IT IN 1/2 & ONLY DO 1 INFANTRY/1 APC PER GM FORCE.
OF COURSE PART OF IT WAS ALSO THE RANDOM TEAMS, IT SEEMS THE EAST TABLE PASTED THE INFANTRY OVER THERE, WHILE THE INFILTRATORS WERE NOT THE BEST OPTION FOR CLEARING THE DROPSHIP.
PS. SORRY FOR THE CAPS LOCK
Edit:
Had the wrong healing time for infantry.
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WEST TABLE - GAME #5 - CAPTURE THE DROPSHIP - Continued
Expanding on the above after some sleep & a little Record Sheet review.
GM Force Damage:
Guillotine = Moderate Damage/Crippled = Armor-56/200, 2 Engine Hits from TAC
Warhammer = Minor Damage = Armor-8/208
Thunderbolt = Minor Damage = Armor-33/211, 1 Pilot Hit
Catapult = Minor Damage = Armor-29/211, IS-1/3 HD
Panther = Heavy Damage/Crippled = Armor-59/110, IS: CT-3/11, RT-4/8, LA-6/6, 1 Gyro, 1 Stk-4, 2 Pilot Hits (The crippling hit was the fall at the end that did the RT IS damage)
Patton = Abandoned = Armor-24/232, Motive-Immobile
Rac-Vette = Abandoned = Armor-22/72, IS: RR-1/5, Motive-Immobile
Rac-Vette = Abandoned = Armor-46/72, Engine Destroyed, Motive-Half-1 (2/3)
Savannah Master #1 = Moderate = Armor-5/24, Motive-Half (7/11)
Savannah Master #2 = Minor = Armor-6/24, Motive-Minor/PSR
Heavy Hover APC #1 = Immobile/Crippled = Armor-8/56
Foot Platoon #1 = Casualties-8/28
Other 5 Heavy APC's = Pristine
Other 5 Infantry Platoons = Pristine
Player Forces Repairs:
As mentioned above 2 of the 3 Infiltrator Squads were wiped out & will spend 2 months healing & repairing
The 3rd squad was still on the Uziel & pristine AFAIK.
I know the Wolverine, Wolfhound, & YellowJacket were all damaged but it didn't appear that any was to the point of missing games.
Not sure where things stood w/ the other 5 Mechs & Karnov, as far as Damaged to the point of repairs.
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WEST TABLE - GAME #5 - CAPTURE THE DROPSHIP - Continued
Battlefield Play by Play:
The game only went 4 turns due to time, which sucks & while slow movement on all sides contributed to that, as did talking, the real killer was having 22 units to plot fire for by the GM. (More on that later)
Even Joel's table only got to 6 turns which is also pretty low.
Turn #1
Player forces (7 mechs, 2 Vtols) had no delayed entry & took the field from the north edge. (Infantry Mounted)
GM forces had 5 Combat Vehicles deployed forward on the map & 5 Mechs entering from the south.
Minor ranged fire which didn't connect much.
Savannah Masters begin end run by hitting the Yellow Jacket but just scrapping paint.
I think the only other hit was the Patton on Karnov w/ Precision AC fire, but not scoring any crit/motive.
Had I been able to connect ever again that game this hit might have mattered, LOL.
Turn #2
GM APCs get to enter the map behind the mechs.
Hovers flank up to the dropship & deploy foot platoons in cover.
Tracked just cruise up part of the way.
RacVettes & Patton open up at Player Mechs
GM Mechs move around the Dropship & also open fire, but mostly scrape paint except for the Guillotine.
The Players open fire & all 5 tanks/hovers take some form of motive damage w/ 1 Vedette crew bailing at the end of the turn.
The Karnov & Wolfhound drop off Infiltrators on "their" side of the Dropship, but 1 squad takes heavy fire from the Guillotine that just cleared the Nose of the Leopard. 4 ERML's & a Streak-6 is not kind to a single BA Squad
Turn #3
Both BA Squads & 3 Foot Platoons all enter the DS (Treated as a Building for combat simplicity)
Rifleman makes a stunning run THOUGH the GM's mech to get in the back at the GM Infantry & APCs.
This actually helps to foil the GM plan of surrounding the Wolfhound before it could move by blocking the path to it. The Centurion backs up the Rifleman & gets to the front of the lines.
Close Range fire & Melee ensues w/ T-Bolt, Panther, & Guillotine near by, but, the only real looser is the Panther which falls over.
Wolfhound reverses away from trap while Hussar skirmishes & snipes.
Champion takes cover in middle woods to fire on 2nd Rac-vette.
Uziel takes cover in East woods & immobilizes the Patton but the crew stays inside the thick armor & keeps shooting while the 2nd Vedette crew bails out immobilized.
Tracked APCs drop off Motorized Infantry outside the Dropship while Hovers speed away & snipe.
Foot platoons swarm the Infiltrators finishing off 1 squad while damaging the 2nd.
Wolverine falls from damage by massed GM fire & failed PSR.
Turn #4
The Rifleman & Centurion continue to move behind the Dropships.
The 1st Motorized Platoon moves into Dropship while the other 2 turn & fire on Centurion.
Uziel flanks at the edge lining up for a run to drop off more Battlearmor.
All APCs attempt to move away from or into Rear Arcs of Player Mechs to avoid fire & snipe.
The Warhammer moves into point blank range w/ the Champion which parked in the middle woods
Catapult & Tbolt trade fire w/ Rifleman & Wolfhound.
Panther almost kills itself just trying to stand
Guillotine engages the fallen Wolverine which failed to stand.
Game ends due to lack of time :(
Thoughts on Scenario Balance
1. There was twice as many APCs & Infantry in each GM force as there needed to be. (2+2 Each)
Cutting it in half would made for an up in the air chance v/s an easy GM win here.
2. As I stated before, I don't see how Area Control could have been achieved as it was worded, based on weapon range.
We ruled it instead as simply were they winning, and in this case it was up in the air w/o enough turns & could have gone either way had the game gone on longer.
I'd like to see the 2nd goal focused more directly on combat kills and bring back the "Partial Win" conditions.
Something like 25% Cripple by Unit count & 50% Cripple by BV would make for a good 2 stage goal.
(I used Cripple because a Kill pretty much guarantees it as salvage where a Cripple doesn't so there is a reason to keep shooting but its not directly tied to victory condition. And its also easier to pull off given the short 4-8 turn games we have been having.)
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EAST TABLE - CAPTURE THE DROPSHIP - GM JOEL
4 PLAYER FORCES:
Black Hawk-Prime + IS Std BA
Griffin-5L
Firestarter-O-Prime
Wolverine-9W2
Gurkha 8G
Drillson Hvy Hovertank (Standard) + Marauder BattleArmor
Drillson Hvy Hovertank (Standard) + Marauder BattleArmor
Hiryo WiGE (Infantry) + Kage (Vibro Claw) + Longinus BA (Magnetic) + Djinn BA (Stealth)
GM FORCES: 4 Mechs, 4 Tanks, 8 APC, 8 Infantry
Tempest-3G (3/4)
Enforcer-III-6Ma (3/5)
Starslayer-3D (3/5)
Clint-2-3UL (4/4)
Drillson-Standard (4/5)
Hunter-LRM15 (3/5)
Saladin-Armor (4/5)
Harasser (4/4)
4* Heavy Hover APC-LRM (4/5)
4* Heavy Tracked APC-Standard (4/5)
4* Foot Platoon-MOC (4/5)
4* Motorized Platoon-Lyran Heavy (4/5)
Overview: Limited knowledge so feel free to add play by play & highlights
This table made it 6 turns before time ran out.
Even with 1 player not bringing infantry, the units involved had quite a few Anti-Infantry weapons which lead to many dead GM Infantry.
The players didn't drop off infantry till Turn-3/4 after combat was heavy & killed a few infantry on the way in causing 1 platoon to retreat before it ever got inside the Dropship.
I believe they captured the Dropship but no Area Control? for 200 Objective Points each.
Also 3 bonus Support APCs killed for 75 Group Objective points each.
Salvage was the Enforcer & Saladin that were both crippled & bailed out for 500+131 SP minimum award to be split among 4 players.
Total is 433 each before possible bidding increases.
No idea on player damage/repairs
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I am very frustrated with how yesterday's game played out. I felt from the get-go that there was no way to win. This is the second time now that I feel the gm force was designed to defeat mine. I reiterate: I FEEL. I'm not saying it was intentional, it just feels that way.
After seeing which forces were on which table, the gm force should have been edited. 2x apc with an infantry squad each versus each player on our table...when we had 3 ba between us, none of which were designed to be anti-infantry, yet having infantry inside the dropship at the last turn was necessary, made the scenario objective #1 impossible to achieve. With Joel knowing our forces beforehand, this should NEVER have happened. If I have infiltrator mk 2 puma ba, my opposition should include infantry that I CAN defeat, not infantry that will overwhelm my 4 man squad using 2x 28 man infantry platoons. The infantry in my roster have been there since the beginning of the campaign - ergo the GM knew they were not anti infantry capable. I was limited to 3 units in my force (+ carried infantry): champion, hussar and karnov carrying infiltrators. The army designed to face me was a warhammer, a panther, a patton and 2 apcs each with infantry. So off the bat, I'm outnumbered and outgunned. There was ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to win. Removing half of the apc's and infantry before beginning would have given both sides equal number of infantry to at least potentially achieve goal #1, as well as slightly mitigate the overwhelming advantage in numbers that the gm force had from 7:4 to 5:4. a second option would be GM supplied apc's and infantry to augment our force, to make the objective attainable.
The board setup was also not in the player's favor. The dropship was significantly closer to the enemy side than the player side; enemy tanks started on the board, roughly 15 hexes in; enemy 4/6 mechs entered on turn 1; enemy apc's began offloading infantry adjacent to the dropship on turn two. So force superiority, terrain advantage, and tactical deployment were all out of the players grasp from the outset.
'Rescue the Dropship' could be a fun mission. I like the idea, and I like trying to build an army out of my limited roster that can match up with the scenario restrictions. Overwhelming advantage on the GM side, however, makes the game frustrating, and honestly, when I saw what was arrayed against us, I knew I was only going to lose points. This is not the campaign I am interested in playing.
Mercenaries do not enter a battle they expect to lose unless the pay warrants the risk. I lost money on this scenario. I think this is another scenario (like the first campaign game) where our employer should compensate for the overwhelming inherent risk in the mission.
My 28 cents, anyway.
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Game #5 Combined Salvage Pool
I believe under Joel's new Salvage rules there is no priority to who did the kill or what table it was on.
All salvage is open to blind bid via Email with Minimum Bid being the original base Salvage values.
I did realize that yesterday's estimates were not accurate from memory & per the rules the correct values for each unit are listed below
Salvage value of a destroyed unit is 25% of purchase price
Salvage value of an immobilized/abandoned unit is 50% of purchase price if crippled,
75% if not (e.g., pilot killed without head destruction, “Crew Killed” vehicle critical).
Salvageable Units:
Enforcer-III-6Ma (Crippled) 50*10*.5 = 500 SP Minimum Bid
Saladin-Armor (Immobilized) 35*5*.75 = 131 SP Minimum Bid
Patton-Standard (Immobilized) 65*5*.75 = 244 SP Minimum Bid
Vedette-RAC (Crippled) 50*10*.5 = 250 SP Minimum Bid
Vedette-RAC (Crippled) 50*10*.5 = 250 SP Minimum Bid
So the Patton & Saladin are actually higher.
I'll edit posts above for correct awards.
So you can all email Joel those bids w/ the minimums listed above.
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enemy tanks started on the board, roughly 15 hexes in;
I lost money on this scenario.
While I agree with much of what you said, I have to point out these 2 small parts.
1. Placing those tanks being so far ahead is what actually allowed you to cripple & salvage them. $$ ;)
Had they entered w/ the mechs, I doubt very much that you could have pulled that off.
2. You didn't actually loose money as my post shows.
Reward is going to be a MINIMUM of 373 SP earned & could go up based on bid sizes.
The only known repairs are the 2 squads of destroyed BA that will be back in action after 2 games worth of Healing/Repairs that only cost time, not SP.
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While i appreciate your point, "Time is money".
373sp does not warrant entering the field for a near-guaranteed loss. ;)
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373 was what the battle ended up with........ Potential was 550 each before Salvage.
Potential was enough to buy a L1 Medium mech or L2 Medium Tank for the game, or a Gunnery skill increase is a decent base amount. End result is still Lights or close to that Gunnery.
Not a great payout but not a loss in SP either.
I already stated my thoughts on getting this one to a "balanced" level above, but essentially....
1. Cut the Infantry in 1/2
2. Turn Area Control into combat cripples.
I'd Redo the goals into "Marginal" & "Decisive" levels for Victory & boost the reward a bit.
Goal #1: Dropship Control
150 SP - Marginal - Contested Dropship Control an End of Game (Both sides have Infantry inside)
300 SP - Decisive - Complete Dropship Control at EoG (Only Player Infantry Inside)
Goal #2: Defeat Enemy Forces
150 SP - Marginal - Cripple 25% of Enemy by Unit Count & outnumber them in non-crippled units.
300 SP - Decisive - Cripple 50% of Enemy by BV & have more BV left in non-crippled condition.
I added the part in italics when I realized the goal could be reached in a Pyrrhic manner while loosing 3/4 of the player forces which I don't think should be a good thing just because repairs are free.
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WEST TABLE - GAME #5 - CAPTURE THE DROPSHIP
DEATH / DAMAGE / CRIPPLES
PLAYERS:
INFILTRATOR-II-MAGNETIC "SQUAD" (4/5) - J.B. (DEAD - OUT 2 GAMES TO HEAL)
INFILTRATOR-II-MAGNETIC "SQUAD" (4/5) - JAS. (DEAD - OUT 2 GAMES TO HEAL)
After double checking the healing rules, I had something wrong.
Its actually only 1 game out for Infantry.
Heal 50% between games.
So...
0-50 = No games Missed
51-100 = 1 Game missed.
Joel may change this in the future as the GM.
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So that means my Marauder Squad that got 100% killed will be available for the next game because the MASH truck healed them up to half already?
As for the game itself I felt it was more balanced and fun than the AirRaid mission in November. Having the enemy come on in waves helped to deal with the superior numbers, and while the double infantry seems a little much at first glance, fielding BA (at least on our table) feels adequate. My Marauder BAs faced off against two hover infantry platoons and 3 or 4 of the smaller platoons before getting reinforced by our other BA squads. I only lost 4 troopers and massacred a couple of enemy infantry units.
Turns took a while, though that's to be expected when you've got 4 people trying to coordinate their movements. Shooting seemed to go fairly smoothly given the number of units. The biggest problem was too much non-game related jawing, which I was just as guilty of, especially when our GM got pulled away to answer questions in the middle of shooting.
My biggest problem, would be a clearer secondary objective. Having to force the enemy beyond weapons range, pretty much means you have to table them in order to clearly get that objective. Something along the lines of the "cripple and outnumber" objective that Hellraiser proposed would certainly help define that type of mission in a clearer fashion.
Over all I had fun and am looking forward to the next campaign mission!
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So that means my Marauder Squad that got 100% killed will be available for the next game because the MASH truck healed them up to half already?
That is the way I'm reading it now yes.
When I posted I was thinking it was 1 & 2 games v/s 0 & 1 games & so was off a bit.
Having a MASH would speed that up even more.
So assuming no changes.
Yes, it would be ready for the campaign game in March.
My Marauder BAs faced off against two hover infantry platoons and 3 or 4 of the smaller platoons before getting reinforced by our other BA squads. I only lost 4 troopers and massacred a couple of enemy infantry units.
The Marauder is a much deadlier machine when it comes to facing infantry in the open.
You also had many more squads than did the table I GM'd.
The Infiltrator-II-Magnetic that were deployed on the table I was running, while being an AMAZING, suit of armor, are not well suited for dealing w/ PBI hordes.
1. Stat wise, the Stealth Armor didn't help them & the Magshots do minimal damage to PBI.
2. Tactics wise, they didn't get to see the PBI till after they were inside, so there was no catching them out in the open.
3. Finally, of the 3 squads on the table, only 1 really got to engage. 1 was still mounted up on a mech, while a 2nd squad dismounted in front of my Guillotine at better to hit #'s that anything else on the battlefield & so I sent some ERML/Streak love its way & took out 75% of the squad before it got inside the dropship.
So it came down to 1 squad v/s a full company that came in from the other side of the DS.
Not a lot they could do at that point.
For your table I was surprised the Griffin/Firestarter-O combo didn't go after the infantry, that pair could roast the better part of that entire infantry battalion in a few turns.
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For your table I was surprised the Griffin/Firestarter-O combo didn't go after the infantry, that pair could roast the better part of that entire infantry battalion in a few turns.
The players on my table advanced more cautiously; the GM infantry was already inside the dropship by the time they got into range.
Also, woohoo! The boards are back online! :D I can post what I was going to two days ago:
I am very frustrated with how yesterday's game played out. I felt from the get-go that there was no way to win. This is the second time now that I feel the gm force was designed to defeat mine. I reiterate: I FEEL. I'm not saying it was intentional, it just feels that way.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I make these difficult because I didn't think the players wanted walkovers. This time your table had it rough, exacerbated by how few rounds you got in. THAT is a problem I'm going to have to work on; in the past players had requested the GM forces not have so many high-end, skilled units, but if they continue to bring them on themselves, the choices for the opposition are piles of cheap GM units (leading to too few rounds) or having it seem as if I'm ignoring their pleas. I do think I'm going to make sure that "objective-based" scenarios have low player unit counts.
After seeing which forces were on which table, the gm force should have been edited.
Sorry, no. I'm not changing forces just because some players didn't buy good infantry, despite previous warnings that there would be infantry-required battles at some point. I made it so you could ignore the infantry requirement if you wanted, instead focusing on just getting one mission (you massively out-BV'd the enemy if you ignored their infantry, even factoring in your token infantry forces). Also, in my defense, I bring to your attention the other table, where the inside of the dropship was painted with the blood of GM infantry. It will only fly again after rigorous application of a wet-vac.
I have changed the rules going forward, removing the "lead time" on new hires/purchases.
Mercenaries do not enter a battle they expect to lose unless the pay warrants the risk. I lost money on this scenario. I think this is another scenario (like the first campaign game) where our employer should compensate for the overwhelming inherent risk in the mission.
As Hellraiser pointed out, you didn't lose anything (other than some infantry that's out for two battles). The rules have been set up so that it's very hard for the players to lose money -- they basically have to lose units and fail to hold the field (which is why the missions where you do not hold the field have seemed a bit easy, btw). I thought the point of the campaign was to play Battletech in a structured set of battles. If you feel it's only worth your time to play if you're guaranteed an easy win...
I do think Hellraiser's suggestion that I make each victory condition have minor/major rewards is good, and I'll try to do that in the future.
I'd also like to point out that, while no one wants to enter a battle at a disadvantage, sometimes intel is wrong, or the enemy has managed to get a step on you. Unless we're going to break out the StratOps/InterstellarOps strategic-level rules, you'll have to accept that the GM applies "bad intel" as fiat to make scenarios something other than "your side beats the snot out of the other side, then goes for beer." If I can ever figure out a way for us to get 12+ rounds in, I'd love to run a game where the opfor has 120% of your BV, and I hand you new mission objectives ("Run!") at game time. >:D
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In hindsight with the way the infantry got divided up between tables we should have just written off the infantry goal. We were screwed on that point from the get go. We should just have dropped them on the vehicles where they could do something they were actually good at. O0
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That would have been a good tactic & put more mech fire onto my mechs.
IMO, the biggest thing that I think you guys could have done was before the game ever started.
Buy different BA. The Longinus-Magnetic & the Fa Shih-Support variant both mount multiple weapons w/ burst bonuses to trash conventional infantry.
I know you wanted matching miniatures but in this case the loss of "potential" use of Edge on the mini could have been well worth the better weapons
Its the choice I made for Taranis-BA & Regulator Hovercraft in my own force.
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I'd love to run a game where the opfor has 120% of your BV, and I hand you new mission objectives ("Run!") at game time. >:D
Now THAT is the kind of scenario when we play sideways coming in from the long edges to make for some room to RUN around.
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Now THAT is the kind of scenario when we play sideways coming in from the long edges to make for some room to RUN around.
Yeah, that's just messed up enough to be interesting. :D
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That would have been a good tactic & put more mech fire onto my mechs.
IMO, the biggest thing that I think you guys could have done was before the game ever started.
Buy different BA. The Longinus-Magnetic & the Fa Shih-Support variant both mount multiple weapons w/ burst bonuses to trash conventional infantry.
I know you wanted matching miniatures but in this case the loss of "potential" use of Edge on the mini could have been well worth the better weapons
Its the choice I made for Taranis-BA & Regulator Hovercraft in my own force.
You aren't saying anything I didn't think of but the fact is I like using units I like even if they aren't the most perfect. And if the forces had split differently it wouldn't have mattered so much.
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Well, bollocks. It didn't matter for our table but I don't think we were doing damage correctly for infantry inside buildings. From the current errata:
When burst-fire weapons are used against conventional infantry in a building hex, assign damage per the Burst-Fire Weapon Damage Vs. Conventional Infantry Table (p. 217), but reduce the damage by half (round as normal). Damage assigned to the building is per the weapon’s non-burst-fire damage; see Attacks Against Conventional Infantry, page 215.
...and so much for BA hanging off a WiGE:
Movement Restrictions: Whether or not the battle armor is equipped with magnetic clamps, no vehicle may expend UMU, VTOL, WiGE or Jumping MP while carrying mechanized battle armor, and no ’Mech may expend UMU MP.
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Ah, they added WiGE to the list. Good, actually -- that makes sense. (Hell of a ride, though.)
The infantry errata would have meant my table had it even easier. I guess I need to go through my first printing with a stack of sticky-notes, tagging the major fixes... :-\
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What was your table doing?
I thought the rule was Burst Damage didn't work inside buildings.
I like these new versions in both cases, except for that Jumping thing, if Mechs can do it, I see no reason why vehicles can't. Holding on is Holding on.
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Oh, that's only from outside to in? Then we did it right, as I disallowed all outside fire (armored dropship, after all).
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No, that was for inside to inside too.
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We did it as "no burst damage." So they would have dealt with the infantry even more easily.
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Like I said no help for our table, unfortunately. OTOH, at your table they would have had a harder time getting all the BA to the dropship since they wouldn't have been able to have a squad hanging off the WiGE.
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squad hanging off the WiGE.
Sir what is that noise, is that some sort of sonic weaponry?
(wwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee)
No, I think someone just thinks they are at Castles & Coasters & not in the middle of a firefight.
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Like I said no help for our table, unfortunately. OTOH, at your table they would have had a harder time getting all the BA to the dropship since they wouldn't have been able to have a squad hanging off the WiGE.
Partially true -- however, he had two squads inside the WiGE -- he just couldn't drop all three. Since the third didn't even make it into the dropship, the inside fight wouldn't have changed much.
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I like these new versions in both cases, except for that Jumping thing, if Mechs can do it, I see no reason why vehicles can't. Holding on is Holding on.
And I still think it is stupid that only omnis can carry BA normally. A handhold is a handhold is a handhold as far as I'm concerned and not some super technology that can only be fitted to omnis.
Partially true -- however, he had two squads inside the WiGE -- he just couldn't drop all three. Since the third didn't even make it into the dropship, the inside fight wouldn't have changed much.
Gotcha.
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And I still think it is stupid that only omnis can carry BA normally. A handhold is a handhold is a handhold as far as I'm concerned and not some super technology that can only be fitted to omnis.
Pretty sure there was some optional rule mentioned somewhere in one of the older books that "welded" on hand holds for early BA.
IIRC it duplicated the effects of Magclamps but was doing it from the Mech end instead of the BA end.
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After all the talk & changing of how Salvage works ............. and the issues w/ not enough units in forces that are 5/8+ for the "Fast Units Only" scenarios........
I'm dumbfounded at no one bidding on the Enforcer-III that was up for grabs after last game /boggle.
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Don't look at me all my units go 5/8 or faster and AFAIK those that don't have enough units of that type aren't paying attention to this discussion. :o
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Hey Joel,
Thank you for the game yesterday. I am showing the following salvage from table 2.
Standard Tech Longbow - Lost left torso - XL engine destruction
Standard Tech Enforcer III - critical hit to head - lost cockpit
Standard Tech Guillotine - Head shot off
Musketeer - Immobile - Crew abandoned
Musketeer - Immobile - Crew abandoned
Alacorn - Immobile - Crew abandoned
Standard Tech Valkyrie - Lost right torso - XL engine destruction
Standard Tech Locust - Lost left torso - XL engine destruction
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Hey Joel,
Thank you for the game yesterday. I am showing the following salvage from table 2.
Standard Tech Longbow - Lost left torso - XL engine destruction
Standard Tech Enforcer III - critical hit to head - lost cockpit
Standard Tech Guillotine - Head shot off
Musketeer - Immobile - Crew abandoned
Musketeer - Immobile - Crew abandoned
Alacorn - Immobile - Crew abandoned
Standard Tech Valkyrie - Lost right torso - XL engine destruction
Standard Tech Locust - Lost left torso - XL engine destruction
What happened to the Harasser? I don't remember it exploding.
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The harasser got atomized by the archangel on turn 1
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I am showing the following salvage from table 2.
Standard Tech Enforcer III - critical hit to head - lost cockpit
Musketeer - Immobile - Crew abandoned
Musketeer - Immobile - Crew abandoned
Alacorn - Immobile - Crew abandoned
What was the condition of those 4 outside of the crew abandoning them or the pilot being dead?
Were any crippled? IE...
Had any of the vehicles been stripped of armor in a location?
Enforcer lost limbs or multiple torso internal exposed?
Etc etc etc.
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Joel,
I wrote down about the salvage from table 2 was the following.
Standard Tech Longbow - Lost left torso - XL engine destruction
Standard Tech Enforcer III - critical hit to head - lost cockpit (the rest of the head was intact)
Standard Tech Guillotine - Head destroyed
Musketeer - Immobile - Crew abandoned
Musketeer - Immobile - Crew abandoned
Alacorn - Immobile - Crew abandoned
Standard Tech Valkyrie - Lost right torso - XL engine destruction
Standard Tech Locust - Lost left torso - XL engine destruction
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Oops your not Joel. My bad
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Just saw this thread. I will be moving to the Phoenix area in two weeks. Never actually played the game, but have purchased quite a few books and the intro set. Hoping to find others who play in the area. Please let me know.
Thanks
Tony