BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: SCC on 17 November 2017, 03:33:51
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OK CO says that each unit ('Mech, ASF tank) needs it own tech team, but I find that rather high, after all maintenance doesn't that long (An entire lance of Assualt 'Mechs takes 6 hours) and doesn't need doing that often (Weekly or monthly, if not yearly given how tough stuff is in BT) and while Linked Scenarios in SO does keep track of time (Sort of, the rules are rather flexible) too my knowledge it's not used that often, if at all, and the default Strategic Turn length of one day seems like it would represent a much higher then normal combat intensity.
So what do people think the real level of tech teams needed should be? Personally I'm thinking that one per lance, with 1 additional team at each level higher (So company, battalion, regiment). And for times when a unit would need more teams, well that's when a specialist unit is attached to your command (Or you have to higher one if merc), which both follows the real world AND aligns with the perpetual shortage of techs in the early lore.
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your numbers are adequate for MAINTENANCE they are totally inadequate for after battle repairs.
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your numbers are adequate for MAINTENANCE they are totally inadequate for after battle repairs.
This.
The number of techs required during peace or down time for the unit is practically trivial. One tech team can support more than a company's routine maintenance needs, and even cover minor repairs of damage sustained during training and peacetime maneuvers. Problem is, once the live ammo starts flying and lasers are dialed up to their full lethal power, that tech team is going to be kept fairly busy repairing just ONE 'Mech. Depending on the nature of the unit and the intensity of the combats that it engages in, one team per lance might still be more than enough for scouting and occasional raiding operations, or totally inadequate for sustained heavy combat.
The ability to sustain continuous operations in the face of the enemy (via adequate support personnel) is a significant factor in a mercenary unit's rating.
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your numbers are adequate for MAINTENANCE they are totally inadequate for after battle repairs.
To an extent that's the point, outside of being involved in some big dust up a unit is not going need many repairs, and if it is, it would hire them and be assigned them by higher up. For example do you really think the units assigned to Operation RAT had only their normal assignment of support personal? Of course not, they had extras assigned. And keep in mind that any mission with the world raid in it's description, along with several others, would likely only be a single battle (The attack at the start of the warrior trilogy is an example of an assassination mission).
This.
The number of techs required during peace or down time for the unit is practically trivial. One tech team can support more than a company's routine maintenance needs, and even cover minor repairs of damage sustained during training and peacetime maneuvers. Problem is, once the live ammo starts flying and lasers are dialed up to their full lethal power, that tech team is going to be kept fairly busy repairing just ONE 'Mech. Depending on the nature of the unit and the intensity of the combats that it engages in, one team per lance might still be more than enough for scouting and occasional raiding operations, or totally inadequate for sustained heavy combat.
The ability to sustain continuous operations in the face of the enemy (via adequate support personnel) is a significant factor in a mercenary unit's rating.
I picked enough that a unit should have enough support to survive low intensity ops, let me know if I got that wrong. And while this means that a merc unit isn't well equipped for missions that require sustained heavy combat, that's probably not what most are hired for. And if by chance you do need lots of support, well how else do you think units like Battle Magic make their money?
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The details are in Strat Ops pp 169 to 187.
I picked enough that a unit should have enough support to survive _____, let me know if I got that wrong.
Aye, but there's the rub: you won't know you're wrong up until you find the battle overtaking your repair crews' efforts... i.e. rate of losses > rate of repairs/rearms. And that's when you get overrun :D
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A team is defined as one Tech plus six AsTechs... I usually work that as one actual Tech plus a squad of infantry per 'mech. The requirements to use combatants as AsTechs are a little high, but may come down in time...
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Aye, but there's the rub: you won't know you're wrong up until you find the battle overtaking your repair crews' efforts... i.e. rate of losses > rate of repairs/rearms. And that's when you get overrun :D
I'm well what I propose has problems, most obviously if you take a garrison contract and the planet gets attacked. Of course you can make the same argument about the levels CO says are normal, can't you.
A team is defined as one Tech plus six AsTechs... I usually work that as one actual Tech plus a squad of infantry per 'mech. The requirements to use combatants as AsTechs are a little high, but may come down in time...
I think there's rules for using infantry and the like as tech teams, beyond the CO stuff of course.
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That particular rule is on page 20 of CO. I asked about it here (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=56357.msg1295691#msg1295691).
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From my time working with a REME (Royal Electrical Mechanical Engineers, the guys who worked on a Regiments tanks/trucks/jeeps) its all a matter of scale and priority.
During peace time repairs were done on a priority basis. Whilst the REME Detachment was about 100 - 120 blokes strong, this was of all ranks, including a Major as OC, a Captain as 2IC and a ASM as the senior soldier plus a clerical detachment of 1 (me).
The hangar might have upwards of a dozen vehicles of all types in at any one time, but this could be for something minor or a major bit of work, if it was a major repair then you'd probably have 2 groups of engineers working on it, say 8 privates and 2 corporals. Other tanks would have maybe 1 - 2 blokes working on them, depending on what needed to be done.
I'd assume it would be the same for a Mech formation. Lets use a Regiment as a base setting, and then assume its a well equipped House unit, not a Merc formation.
You'd probably have a dedicated group of engineers as part of the Regiments ToE. In base the Mechs would be sent/dragged to repair bays to be worked on in order of priority. But in the field the Engineers would probably be parcelled out to the Companies along with their equipment. But in the field the whole 'work on the worst case first' would be reversed. You need your Mechs in the field NOW, so work on those that can be quickly repaired and sent out first. The worst cases (ammo explosions, legging etc) would be the last thing you'd work on. Its simple triage, you work on what you can save.
But during peace time I could imagine a team of 4 techs with an NCO leading them working on a single Mech. But to repair battle casualties, they would be swarming all over a Mech.
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@marauder648 was your unit assigned to do repairs for a certain unit or just whatever showed up? If so if another unit got sent to Afghanistan might your be sent as well, even if the unit you did repairs for wasn't being sent because hey the unit being sent is going to see combat, they just might need repairs more often?
And on your figure of a maximum of 120 guys per regiment, that works out to 1 man per 'Mech, or two teams per company.
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@marauder648 was your unit assigned to do repairs for a certain unit or just whatever showed up? If so if another unit got sent to Afghanistan might your be sent as well, even if the unit you did repairs for wasn't being sent because hey the unit being sent is going to see combat, they just might need repairs more often?
And on your figure of a maximum of 120 guys per regiment, that works out to 1 man per 'Mech, or two teams per company.
It was the REME detachment for 47 Regt Royal Artillery. The Regiment consisted of 4 Batteries, each about 120 - 140 blokes (can't remember fully as it was 2000 - 2003). The 4 batteries and a HQ battery made up the Regiment with a REME Detachment (company sized) as well as the usual mix of RLC support for the chefs, a 15 (ish) strong clerks detachment spread across the Regiment amongst the Companies and a drunk South African Padre (awesome bloke).
The vehicle crews would do minor works on their equipment (Stormers with Starstreak HVMs, the Regt was an AA unit), like changing light bulbs and cleaning them as well as basic maintenance. But any work on the engine, tracks, electrical systems, weapon system etc was all done by the REME guys. And they would do what was needed, from the annual MOT's and standard maintenance on the engines/weapon systems to replacing worn tracks as well as vehicle recovery, engine replacement, work on the running gear/road wheels. Basically what ever was needed. The hangar was a full workshop with overhead winches, hoists, you name it. There was also a small group of weapons specialists who maintained the missiles of the Starstreak system.
On exercise the REME Detachment tended to stick together and when needed were sent out to a position (with their own vehicles based on the old FV432 APC) to do work on vehicles, usually to recover them to where we was so they could be worked on. I asked the 2IC (I was his driver) about this and he said in actual war time the REME detachment would be split up amongst the Regiment with their own supplies etc.
But looking at this from a BTech POV i'd say this happens.
The Mechwarrior is obviously going to be tech savvy and knows enough about his/her ride to work on stuff like the computer system or help grunts unjam that bloody missile launcher. AGAIN.
But the REME equivalent would be there when they need to work on the gyro, or a knackered actuator, or a malfunctioning PPC. And when something goes wrong, they are sent out to work on the damaged Mech and would get support from the support/logistics crew that would be attached to a Company ( again assuming they are also given basic tech training, so they can change out some bits and bobs and do minor stuff). Basically the Techs would go out when something big is needed to be done or for major repairs/new armour plating adding etc.
Lets say this is during the 3rd Succession wars era, and a damaged Mech would disengage from the combat zone, radioing it needed support and repairs for X issues (sending a data burst with the transmission and this would give the Techs a clue as to what they are walking into.). The Tech's OC then looks at what's happened, whats needed and sends out personnel accordingly in their own teams with their Corporal. If say 3 teams of 4 - 5 blokes were needed there would be a Sgt there to command them.
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This.
The number of techs required during peace or down time for the unit is practically trivial. One tech team can support more than a company's routine maintenance needs, and even cover minor repairs of damage sustained during training and peacetime maneuvers. Problem is, once the live ammo starts flying and lasers are dialed up to their full lethal power, that tech team is going to be kept fairly busy repairing just ONE 'Mech. Depending on the nature of the unit and the intensity of the combats that it engages in, one team per lance might still be more than enough for scouting and occasional raiding operations, or totally inadequate for sustained heavy combat.
The ability to sustain continuous operations in the face of the enemy (via adequate support personnel) is a significant factor in a mercenary unit's rating.
so rules of thumb as:
a light mech lance might be able to get by with one team, since light mechs usually either escape relatively unscathed.. or become scrap.
a medium lance would probably need at least 2 teams
heavies and assault lances need minimum one team per mech
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so rules of thumb as:
a light mech lance might be able to get by with one team, since light mechs usually either escape relatively unscathed.. or become scrap.
a medium lance would probably need at least 2 teams
heavies and assault lances need minimum one team per mech
That sounds like a good rule of thumb as the bigger units would be taking a hell of a lot more damage and would need more work.
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I kind of scratch my head at the TW retcon of how large a team it requires to keep a mech in action, because they didn't also retcon what a mech bay supports. As far back as dropships have been given stats, there's been 1 pilot and 1 astech per mech. If that's not enough any more, we're making the presence of "off screen" extra dropships coming along for raids even more necessary than it was before.
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It was the REME detachment for 47 Regt Royal Artillery. The Regiment consisted of 4 Batteries, each about 120 - 140 blokes (can't remember fully as it was 2000 - 2003). The 4 batteries and a HQ battery made up the Regiment with a REME Detachment (company sized) as well as the usual mix of RLC support for the chefs, a 15 (ish) strong clerks detachment spread across the Regiment amongst the Companies and a drunk South African Padre (awesome bloke).
The vehicle crews would do minor works on their equipment (Stormers with Starstreak HVMs, the Regt was an AA unit), like changing light bulbs and cleaning them as well as basic maintenance. But any work on the engine, tracks, electrical systems, weapon system etc was all done by the REME guys. And they would do what was needed, from the annual MOT's and standard maintenance on the engines/weapon systems to replacing worn tracks as well as vehicle recovery, engine replacement, work on the running gear/road wheels. Basically what ever was needed. The hangar was a full workshop with overhead winches, hoists, you name it. There was also a small group of weapons specialists who maintained the missiles of the Starstreak system.
On exercise the REME Detachment tended to stick together and when needed were sent out to a position (with their own vehicles based on the old FV432 APC) to do work on vehicles, usually to recover them to where we was so they could be worked on. I asked the 2IC (I was his driver) about this and he said in actual war time the REME detachment would be split up amongst the Regiment with their own supplies etc.
But looking at this from a BTech POV i'd say this happens.
The Mechwarrior is obviously going to be tech savvy and knows enough about his/her ride to work on stuff like the computer system or help grunts unjam that bloody missile launcher. AGAIN.
But the REME equivalent would be there when they need to work on the gyro, or a knackered actuator, or a malfunctioning PPC. And when something goes wrong, they are sent out to work on the damaged Mech and would get support from the support/logistics crew that would be attached to a Company ( again assuming they are also given basic tech training, so they can change out some bits and bobs and do minor stuff). Basically the Techs would go out when something big is needed to be done or for major repairs/new armour plating adding etc.
Lets say this is during the 3rd Succession wars era, and a damaged Mech would disengage from the combat zone, radioing it needed support and repairs for X issues (sending a data burst with the transmission and this would give the Techs a clue as to what they are walking into.). The Tech's OC then looks at what's happened, whats needed and sends out personnel accordingly in their own teams with their Corporal. If say 3 teams of 4 - 5 blokes were needed there would be a Sgt there to command them.
Uh, I'd forgotten about the modern practice of calling a slightly over strength unit one level higher. SO how many vehicles did the unit have when you served with them? (It seems their an air surveillance unit now)
I kind of scratch my head at the TW retcon of how large a team it requires to keep a mech in action, because they didn't also retcon what a mech bay supports. As far back as dropships have been given stats, there's been 1 pilot and 1 astech per mech. If that's not enough any more, we're making the presence of "off screen" extra dropships coming along for raids even more necessary than it was before.
TM actually says that a 'Mech Bay has quarters for the pilot, the Tech and all 6 AsTechs. What's really weird is for vehicle bays you can fit the entire vehicle crew and a full tech team, which means a 200 ton super-heavy vehicle bay has room for a 200-ton vehicle, 14 crew and 7 man tech team.
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I usually run 1 full tech team per Mech/Aerospace, 1 tech team per 4 vehicles. In addition each company gets an additional 2 tech teams. A Battalion gets 4 additional tech teams, Regiment gets another 12 tech teams. Each company will always have an Elite Tech assigned to it. Battalion gets 2 more Elite Techs, Regiment will have 4-6 more Elite techs. As I will snap up an Elite tech that hits the market immediately. You cannot have enough Elite techs IMO.
As follows:
Mech Lance 4 tech teams
Mech Company 14 tech teams
Mech Battalion 46 tech teams
Mech Regiment 150 tech teams
Armor Lance 1 tech team
Armor Company 5 tech teams
Armor Battalion 19 tech teams
Armor Regiment 69 tech teams
I spend a fortune on technical support in my units, but I can handle even heavy to severe damage. As long as I got the spare parts (and I usually do as I spend a fortune there too) I can have a heavily damaged Mech Battalion back in the field in 2 days max due to all the tech support. If only a single Battalion saw action out of a regiment, all techs pile on and help with repairs. My current unit I am playing has just over 900 techs/astechs assigned to it. I don't have it open but I think I have over 1200 support personnel employed. That covers IIRC, 150 Mechs, 24 Aerospace, 60 tanks, and another 80+ vehicles.
Just looked and I have the following:
168 Mech Techs
80 Mechanics
26 Aerospace Techs
1483 Astechs
18 Doctors
61 Medics
33 Admins total
That covers:
171 Mechs
22 Aerospace
93 light Vehicles
50 heavy Vehicles
Combat salary 2.4 mil a month
Support is 740,000 a month
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But during peace time I could imagine a team of 4 techs with an NCO leading them working on a single Mech. But to repair battle casualties, they would be swarming all over a Mech.
My expectation is that the Technician, as a Supervisor, probably wouldn't do all of the actual work while the AS Techs are the guys wrenching away (under the 6-to-1 rules, vs the previous edition "Technician" statistics). There'd be times that the Tech would, and use the AS's to fetch tools or the "hold this right here while I do that" processes. Though, they'd probably largely be overseeing the work that the AS's complete.
Doctors in surgery are somewhat the same; they'd be needed for the final / critical procedures, but they might just otherwise oversee their technical staff when suturing up and/or administering pharm's.
TM actually says that a 'Mech Bay has quarters for the pilot, the Tech and all 6 AsTechs. What's really weird is for vehicle bays you can fit the entire vehicle crew and a full tech team, which means a 200 ton super-heavy vehicle bay has room for a 200-ton vehicle, 14 crew and 7 man tech team.
The way I see it, it also could imply that supporting a janitor and a cook is a possibility by classifying they, and other roles, as "technical support personnel"... If I've been working on a 'Mech for 6+ hours straight and need to get it finished in a hurry, I'm not going to take the 10 minutes to walk up to the commissary and wait at the slop-trough, I'm going to the guy behind the tool-boxes who's cooking on the hibachi to pick up something fast.
And. Janitorial stuff... someone has to wash all the clothes, sheets, and clean the facilities.
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I kind of scratch my head at the TW retcon of how large a team it requires to keep a mech in action, because they didn't also retcon what a mech bay supports. As far back as dropships have been given stats, there's been 1 pilot and 1 astech per mech. If that's not enough any more, we're making the presence of "off screen" extra dropships coming along for raids even more necessary than it was before.
Was it really that big a RetCon? The old 1st Edition Mercenary's Handbook was structured towards an ideal of 1 tech per combat unit, but also made ample provision for allowing Atechs to add to the maintenance process, and reduce costs over time.
Granted, I don't recall that they were included in the DS design rules, but I tend to scratch my head at the current low tonnage cost for transported personnel anyway. (Then I shrug and roll with it.)
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I suppose the maintenance requirements for a mech would be near enough to a helicopter (so far as the amount of maintenance is concerned), and usually when one of those is assigned to a ship it comes with around eight support staff, including a few technicians, and a storeman. They are usually led by a "senior technician", who takes care of the flight's administrative needs and oversees maintenance. This number does not factor in pilots, aircrew, or flight deck team.
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Yes but originally Mechs weren't equated to helicopters or fighters. Originally they were directly equated to tanks and those do not have entire ground maintenance teams for every track you put on the field. What happened was that some of the people writing things decided they wanted the game to be different and started changing things. And not all of us appreciate their efforts to turn the paradigm mechs operate under from what they were to 'mechs are hangar queen fighter equivalents that require large tech crews to keep running.' Frankly I stick with the older rules on some things as I do not like where the newer versions are taking the game.
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Uh, I'd forgotten about the modern practice of calling a slightly over strength unit one level higher. SO how many vehicles did the unit have when you served with them? (It seems their an air surveillance unit now)
Thats a good question, sadly I can't fully remember. IIRC, each Battery had about 12 Stormers with them as the weapon platform. So call it 48 vehicles for the Regiment. But that's a guesstimate, I honestly can't recall as it was 16 years ago :D
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Yes but originally Mechs weren't equated to helicopters or fighters. Originally they were directly equated to tanks and those do not have entire ground maintenance teams for every track you put on the field. What happened was that some of the people writing things decided they wanted the game to be different and started changing things. And not all of us appreciate their efforts to turn the paradigm mechs operate under from what they were to 'mechs are hangar queen fighter equivalents that require large tech crews to keep running.' Frankly I stick with the older rules on some things as I do not like where the newer versions are taking the game.
100% valid and I completely agree that not all changes have been for the better. Breaking down a battlemech from a logical standpoint though, A planned maintenance routine is going to include
Stripping, cleaning, lubricating and reassembling all ballistic and missile weapons
Recalibrating weapon aim points and fire control systems
Cleaning dirt and mud out of air filters, joints and feet
Lubricating joints all the way down to each knuckle on every finger
Connecting various pieces of test equipment to communications gear and other electronics and adjusting them to keep them calibrated
Changing hydraulic fluids, coolants and anti freeze
Testing, adjusting and logging performance of gyros
Cleaning and inspecting literally every component at least once a month
Vibration analysis
Checking for signs of stress and wear on structural components
Testing and inspecting earthing and cabling arrangements
Whatever you need to do to maintain a fusion reactor
Replace things that go out of date or calibration, such as emergency beacons or parachutes
Replace sacrificial components designed to wear out so other thing don't
Incidental repairs of broken solder joins, cracked hoses and cables, rocks stuck in places they shouldn't be
Controlling rust and repainting
And all of this before you even think about adding combat damage to the equation. So the sheer complexity of a battlemech, just at it's face value, mean that it's going to spend a fair bit of time in maintenance compared to a tank. I mean you could run them longer in the field and skip a few steps when times are desperate, but you're going to pay for it in the long run, and given the cost and rarity of battlemechs, especially around the late succession wars, I'd say the preference would be to baby them, and not take any unnecessary chances that could result in operational unavailability.
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As a mostly Merc player, one thing we worked into our table top rpg/tactical campaign was the fact that most mechs (by a wide margin depending on Era) are all VERY old and many times parched and jerryrigged machines. So while a Warhammer might be a future Abrams equivalent, imagine the work involved to keep it battleworthy after 150 years of fighting? A machine full of non-standard components, parts made later and far less precise, generations of alterations of varying levels of quality and skill? I can easily see a mech requiring significantly more work than an equivalent modern armoured vehicle today.
Even for the House militaries this issue will still apply to a lesser extent, although with the industrial renaissance of the 3040s and later, the problem for wealthy House forces diminishes as older mechs are replaced with new models.
Maintenance was almost as much a concern as battle for our units, and I LIKED that aspect of Battletech! Yes it was "the future!" but it was a future held together by sweat and duct-tape!! 😁
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The way I see it, it also could imply that supporting a janitor and a cook is a possibility by classifying they, and other roles, as "technical support personnel"... If I've been working on a 'Mech for 6+ hours straight and need to get it finished in a hurry, I'm not going to take the 10 minutes to walk up to the commissary and wait at the slop-trough, I'm going to the guy behind the tool-boxes who's cooking on the hibachi to pick up something fast.
And. Janitorial stuff... someone has to wash all the clothes, sheets, and clean the facilities.
Interesting idea, might need a rules tweek, to both lower salary (You think a cook/chef makes as much as a tech in BT?) and to prevent you from using them to repair your 'Mechs.
Yes but originally Mechs weren't equated to helicopters or fighters. Originally they were directly equated to tanks and those do not have entire ground maintenance teams for every track you put on the field. What happened was that some of the people writing things decided they wanted the game to be different and started changing things. And not all of us appreciate their efforts to turn the paradigm mechs operate under from what they were to 'mechs are hangar queen fighter equivalents that require large tech crews to keep running.' Frankly I stick with the older rules on some things as I do not like where the newer versions are taking the game.
Or those of us who just find the number insanely high for ANYTHING given how tough stuff is supposed to be in BT.
Thats a good question, sadly I can't fully remember. IIRC, each Battery had about 12 Stormers with them as the weapon platform. So call it 48 vehicles for the Regiment. But that's a guesstimate, I honestly can't recall as it was 16 years ago :D
So no command tracks or fire direction trucks?
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The Starstreak is a laser guided missile, its guided by the sensor on top of the launcher and the gunner. There's no need for a guidance radar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starstreak
There was a command variant of the Stormer vehicle, but again i'm trying to remember from 16 years ago. As I was attached to the workshop, I didn't get much knowledge on the actual Batteries themselves and how they were broken down.
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As a mostly Merc player, one thing we worked into our table top rpg/tactical campaign was the fact that most mechs (by a wide margin depending on Era) are all VERY old and many times parched and jerryrigged machines. So while a Warhammer might be a future Abrams equivalent, imagine the work involved to keep it battleworthy after 150 years of fighting? A machine full of non-standard components, parts made later and far less precise, generations of alterations of varying levels of quality and skill? I can easily see a mech requiring significantly more work than an equivalent modern armoured vehicle today.
Even for the House militaries this issue will still apply to a lesser extent, although with the industrial renaissance of the 3040s and later, the problem for wealthy House forces diminishes as older mechs are replaced with new models.
Maintenance was almost as much a concern as battle for our units, and I LIKED that aspect of Battletech! Yes it was "the future!" but it was a future held together by sweat and duct-tape!! 😁
Actually, I rather like that. It also helps to explain why previously new battlemechs can sit in a hole in the ground (be it forgotten warehouse, or crashed transport) for *centuries*, and still be fired up in a few hours, while a beaten up relic in active service can turn into a total resource hog and time sink.
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From experience running very large units using the actual maintenance rules in SO and the repair rules, running a unit that does see intense combat (because... players), I have learned the following:
Mech techs; a minimum of 1 per mech, plus full astech teams. If you see heavy combat with more than a quarter of your force, you will have units down and out for days if not weeks. If you want full repairs in a day or two after 1 battalion of a mech regiment has seen heavy combat, you need 3 times the mech techs of a regiment. Yup, you need 3 regiments worth of techs to fix 1 battalion in a day. This assumes Regular experience techs, on average.
Mechanics: you need, after maintenance, only about HALF the recommended amount. Vees are easy to maintain, and repairs are mostly easier too. Some of the worst parts to repair still only take a tech team their full shift, and that will get a vee combat operable at the minimum (albeit, with little to no armour)
Aerotech (conventional and proper aerospace); even WORSE than mechs. Between maintenance and repairs - and those repairs taking sometimes weeks and thus completely shutting down your air. Think I'm joking? Unless you have maintenance facilities but are instead relying on your transport bays for repairs, your air that takes even a bit of structural damage is going to be grounded for a minimum of 4, but probably 10 days or so. Heavy armour on a heavy fighter may take two days just to repair one section.
Battlearmour: even better than vehicles. You can cut the recommended amount of techs - even after maintenance - down to about 1/5 of recommended. There are 2 reasons here; 1 is that damage sufficient to kill a battle armour usually doesn't leave much left other than for scrap. In fact, if it is destroyed but the pilot somehow survives, it's just a replacement suit that is issued anyways. Damage insufficient to kill it will only do armour damage, easy enough to fix, and replacing ammo, which is also quick enough. 2 is that maintenance and repair on suits is remarkably easy; having a full tech team per squad is overkill. You could probably get away with 1-2 techs per company, but I'd still keep 1 per platoon - and re-purpose said battle armour techs for other duties when they're not working on suits.
Bigger ships are maintained and repaired by crew, already handled. I use Small Craft as well, and those take up a lot of maintenance needs, which requires even more aerotechs.
I am currently running a merc brigade with 2 mech regiments, with 3 conventional regiments supporting, plus full air and it still only has only a little over 100 mech technicians (a ratio that has stayed approximately the same over the last 2.5 years of the campaign; the unit's fortunes have swung between having a ration of 1:2 to 2:3 for technicians to mechs). This severely strains the ability to maintain any sustained operations, or launch an offensive. After the first couple engagements, the unit is consistently forced to rely on their vehicles to back up mechs that are otherwise damaged. A House unit with a "recommended" amount of technicians - (so 1 mech tech per mech plus astechs) can far more quickly repair damaged units and has occasionally fought the merc force to a standstill simply due to the ability to stay in the field longer.
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I was wondering wouldn't you need more techs than just to keep your mechs working and repaired, so you could deal with battlefield salvage?
I imagine people with real life military maintenance wouldn't be expected to pull armor plate, ammo, and weapons off enemy units after a battle, would they?
In addition I would guess that there would be a huge amount of intel doing oversight to figure out as much as you could from your opposition.
Honestly I don't know how merc units BattleTech manage to hold salvage and gather intelligence from enemy wrecks, with so few people.
You would think that every astech would have to have taken a class on what to report to the intel guys, where in reality they probably just barely know how to hold a wrench.
Any stories about how real life military salvaging would work, and how it could relate to BattleTech?
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really salvaging units I would involve several major steps, and I suspect different people would tend to do different parts.
1 secure the units /area. this involves more than just putting boots on the ground near the units, it involves making sure hostile forces and operators are not in or near the units in question, so that other personnel can retrieve, and or repair the units enough to get them removed from the area.
2 intel, and safety sweep of the units, intelligence folks go over the units looking for obvious intel material, and ordinance crews secure and or remove any ammunition they can from the units to make it "safe, or safer" for repair crews to begin the recovery and repair process.
3 salvage, the units are assessed and salvage, or scrap decisions are made "salvage" units are retrieved to be repaired and strip units have all useful (working) or repairable equipment / components removed to be refurbished (as necessary) and added to the units parts and ammunition stores / stockpiles.
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In the old Merc's FM, it mentions that 30% of "full" tech support is considered to be the minimum acceptable level, so that each mech gets worked on every third rotation (day?). So if you're on a cushy garrison assignment, on some world ten or twenty jumps from the nearest threat, then that's probably what you'd target. In combat, you have to run huge overtime and pull every warm body into the repair bay, and that hurts after a battle or two.
For a front line unit that expects to fight, as people have pointed out, you need vastly more techs than you think you do. Now, mind you, since that book was a merc book the target level is lower since most mercs can't employ vast numbers of techs unless they're in heavy combat all the time. I can't say for other books, but I can imagne for most units it's a tough ballance.
Sure, if you're the Davion Heavy Guard or the Red Lancers or the 2nd Sward, you've got unlimited budgets for personel, transport, spare parts and so on, and you can assign each mechwarrior (most of whom will be important sons and daughters of important famalies) an experianced tech and a full team of astechs. But, you can also expect to be sent into key battles at key moments and you'd better be ready to put up or shut up, again and again and again.
But, for 47th Generic Regulars? I don't know. Maybe if you're a wealthy great house you can give them massive levels of support, too, and then find a way to get that support to the battle field (troop carrier dropships just for techs?). More probably, you just accept that if there's a pitched battle, you're going to get worn down, you're going to lose effectiveness, and if you face down one of thouse prestege units you're in trouble in a drawn out battle.
I suppose just one more thing that makes prestege units more potent.
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In the old Merc's FM, it mentions that 30% of "full" tech support is considered to be the minimum acceptable level, so that each mech gets worked on every third rotation (day?). So if you're on a cushy garrison assignment, on some world ten or twenty jumps from the nearest threat, then that's probably what you'd target. In combat, you have to run huge overtime and pull every warm body into the repair bay, and that hurts after a battle or two.
How often a 'Mech gets maintenance is never defined, if however you referring to repairs from battle damage, well your 1 day in 3 assumes that every 'Mech is damaged.
For a front line unit that expects to fight, as people have pointed out, you need vastly more techs than you think you do. Now, mind you, since that book was a merc book the target level is lower since most mercs can't employ vast numbers of techs unless they're in heavy combat all the time. I can't say for other books, but I can imagne for most units it's a tough ballance.
Exocet units are NOT permanently assigned to the front they rotate back for a variety of reasons, and units assigned to the front need those extra teams, so those teams will stay there if possible, and even if that isn't the case new units heading to the front likely don't have the extra tech teams they'll need, so you put the tech teams in separate engineering units that can be moved around more easily.
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From experience running very large units using the actual maintenance rules in SO and the repair rules, running a unit that does see intense combat (because... players), I have learned the following:
Mech techs; a minimum of 1 per mech, plus full astech teams. If you see heavy combat with more than a quarter of your force, you will have units down and out for days if not weeks. If you want full repairs in a day or two after 1 battalion of a mech regiment has seen heavy combat, you need 3 times the mech techs of a regiment. Yup, you need 3 regiments worth of techs to fix 1 battalion in a day. This assumes Regular experience techs, on average.
Mechanics: you need, after maintenance, only about HALF the recommended amount. Vees are easy to maintain, and repairs are mostly easier too. Some of the worst parts to repair still only take a tech team their full shift, and that will get a vee combat operable at the minimum (albeit, with little to no armour)
Aerotech (conventional and proper aerospace); even WORSE than mechs. Between maintenance and repairs - and those repairs taking sometimes weeks and thus completely shutting down your air. Think I'm joking? Unless you have maintenance facilities but are instead relying on your transport bays for repairs, your air that takes even a bit of structural damage is going to be grounded for a minimum of 4, but probably 10 days or so. Heavy armour on a heavy fighter may take two days just to repair one section.
Battlearmour: even better than vehicles. You can cut the recommended amount of techs - even after maintenance - down to about 1/5 of recommended. There are 2 reasons here; 1 is that damage sufficient to kill a battle armour usually doesn't leave much left other than for scrap. In fact, if it is destroyed but the pilot somehow survives, it's just a replacement suit that is issued anyways. Damage insufficient to kill it will only do armour damage, easy enough to fix, and replacing ammo, which is also quick enough. 2 is that maintenance and repair on suits is remarkably easy; having a full tech team per squad is overkill. You could probably get away with 1-2 techs per company, but I'd still keep 1 per platoon - and re-purpose said battle armour techs for other duties when they're not working on suits.
Bigger ships are maintained and repaired by crew, already handled. I use Small Craft as well, and those take up a lot of maintenance needs, which requires even more aerotechs.
I am currently running a merc brigade with 2 mech regiments, with 3 conventional regiments supporting, plus full air and it still only has only a little over 100 mech technicians (a ratio that has stayed approximately the same over the last 2.5 years of the campaign; the unit's fortunes have swung between having a ration of 1:2 to 2:3 for technicians to mechs). This severely strains the ability to maintain any sustained operations, or launch an offensive. After the first couple engagements, the unit is consistently forced to rely on their vehicles to back up mechs that are otherwise damaged. A House unit with a "recommended" amount of technicians - (so 1 mech tech per mech plus astechs) can far more quickly repair damaged units and has occasionally fought the merc force to a standstill simply due to the ability to stay in the field longer.
sounds like an awesome game, EPIC indeed
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Last MegaMek/MekHQ campaign, I went with 2 tech teams per lance (one of them Regular or Veteran, the other Green or Regular), plus another team (Veteran or Elite) at company level. If the unit had grown beyond "reinforced company" size, I'd have added a team for the second company, and then another team (Elite) at battalion level. The higher level teams get called in for the more complex tasks, while the lance level teams do the bulk of the work.
As pointed out, aerospace assets take about triple the amount of tech support, and one team per ASF is about the absolute minimum. Take a couple of hits to Fire Control or Landing Gear during a mission, and you're looking at several days of down time at minimum, with mediocre odds of success as a field repair, or else taking a couple of weeks (or close to a month for some jobs) spending the extra time to raise the odds. ASFs are "hanger queens" by their very nature, and if you're tying up a tech team for 2 weeks replacing a damaged sensor system, you're going to want a second team doing the armor repairs and routine maintenance in the mean time, otherwise it's another week until it flies again.
In contrast, one tech team can handle MOST of the repairs of a vehicle lance, although you'll probably want two, so one can do the major items, such as repairing motive hits and locked turrets, while the other does miscellaneous armor repairs and ammo reloads.
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One thing I have done is I have a Veteran tech assigned to each Mech lance, they handle all maintenance on the lance. 3 Regular tech teams back up the Veteran during combat repairs. I also have 20 Green tech teams unassigned to help handle battle damage repairs, ammo reloads, stripping armor, weapons etc off salvaged mechs after battle.
I just cannot bring myself to allow lower than Veteran techs do maintenance on my mechs. Transport bays and Regular techs just do not mix well. I have had entire companies arrive in non combat ready after a transit on board ship. At least my Vets keep it under control.
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One thing I have done is I have a Veteran tech assigned to each Mech lance, they handle all maintenance on the lance. 3 Regular tech teams back up the Veteran during combat repairs. I also have 20 Green tech teams unassigned to help handle battle damage repairs, ammo reloads, stripping armor, weapons etc off salvaged mechs after battle.
I just cannot bring myself to allow lower than Veteran techs do maintenance on my mechs. Transport bays and Regular techs just do not mix well. I have had entire companies arrive in non combat ready after a transit on board ship. At least my Vets keep it under control.
And yet mechs have walked under their own power out of wrecked dropships that sat for decades(or longer) in setting. This would tend to indicate a problem with the new rules, they simply do not match the setting.
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The answer after a battle will always be more . In an after action repair cycle you tend to do triage : what unit with up to 3 teams slapping armor on it can be reloaded and ready AS SOON AS POSSIBLE . I go to a heavy armed short brutal combat more to limit damage taken as much as damage given . The only way to do that is use ammo hogs . By extension you lose sustained combat . For instance for about 10 maybe 12 combat turns I get near maximal results . I lose about 1/3 of my firepower and another 1/3 in 16 turns of fighting. So If the engagement is not won by then I lose .