Author Topic: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.  (Read 45002 times)

Youngblood

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #60 on: 23 November 2011, 02:24:16 »
I do believe the EMP-6M is a special case, especially since it's equipped with C3i.  Something like a refit for the Word of Blake?  I forgot.  It does have Light Gauss Rifles!  And TSM for 36-point kicks!

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #61 on: 23 November 2011, 02:39:35 »
The HPPC Blitzkrieg out of '85's ONN section should cover the Pack Hunter-ish Stiletto role pretty well.

Actually, it's from RS:3060U.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #62 on: 23 November 2011, 02:43:04 »
I'm not so happy with Thunder Hawk and Gunslinger both are good mechs with the best weapon is forces can use.
 
Most other 3/5 LAF Assault Mechs are build to annihilate any enemy force at close range, while long range weapon is mostly for slightly more mobile line units (like the Zeus, Banshee or Caesar, War Dog)

To be true the Falconer (the best IS Heavy Mech) is a problem too - when i could have a Wolfhound with PPC and a Hollander both with JJs i would use them instead of a single Falconer but that is personal taste.

You with the Lyrans didn't build the T-Hawk and Gunslinger?  Did you get hit on the head or something?  Putting Gauss Rifles on the big slow mechs is much better than trying to reinvent the AS-7D repeatedly.
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martian

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #63 on: 23 November 2011, 03:23:09 »
Where is that from?

HBHM only has Longbow & Warhammer made on Emris IV, not the Emperor.  :-\
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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #64 on: 23 November 2011, 03:35:25 »
You want the LBX to have special munitions and weigh less? That doesn't seem quite balanced.

The other one that always struck me as odd was the Flashman for the Lyrans. When the non-Introtech version shows up for them (and until the later 55/58 units show up) it is such a weird little design to fit in with the rest of the Lyran units.

Cause of the movement profile, or what?  I suppose on that account it would really just be a Medium lance leader's mech until you start seeing the heavy cav designs of the late 50s on start to pop up, like the Falconer and Barghest.


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Taurevanime

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #65 on: 23 November 2011, 03:40:04 »
You want the LBX to have special munitions and weigh less? That doesn't seem quite balanced.
I didn't say lighter. Just the special munitions.

It was called Double Heat Sinks?
Well the double heat sink made standard lasers better and the ER models even better.

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #66 on: 23 November 2011, 03:45:01 »
I think the engine DHS are the biggest factor of all, myself.


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ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #67 on: 23 November 2011, 03:51:51 »
Quote
HBHM only has Longbow & Warhammer made on Emris IV, not the Emperor.  :-\

Oh. Try checking TRO3058U.

Certain FWL 'Mechs come with iC3. Its not an exclusively Blakist/ComStar technology.
« Last Edit: 23 November 2011, 03:55:05 by ArkRoyalRavager »

Youngblood

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #68 on: 23 November 2011, 03:59:41 »
Giving LB-X ACs specialty munitions would make old ACs (and the units they're on) completely obsolete (unless you play risky double-tap from TacOps), plus the lighter weight, increased range, and lower heat would make the larger bores even more desirable on assault 'Mechs than most energy weapons.  Why waste space on IS Double Heat Sinks for that PPC when you can just mount a Precision ammo-firing LB-10-X with no minimum range?

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #69 on: 23 November 2011, 04:15:56 »
Because that's the way BattleTech is. Obsoleteness gives way to progress. X-Pulse lasers are totally superior to Pulse Lasers. PPCs are almost obsolete when theres 3 stripes of new PPCs to suit different needs. Heck, RetroTech was completely discarded even in the tech-poor Succession Wars. So it's not that big a leap for LBXs to supplant ACs just as ACs supplanted Rifles.

Taurevanime

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #70 on: 23 November 2011, 04:39:20 »
Actually due to their large crit size and the way special munition ammo rules reduce the amount work, it isn't actually that beneficial for assaults to carry them. But then assaults have always been units that favoured mixing the ballistic and energy weapons together. Because they have the free tonnage, just not the crit space.
However when it comes to lighter weight mechs that can usually only afford one big weapon system, the autocannon has always lacked behind due to their heavy weight, large size, ammo dependence and in the case of earlier eras. The class 10 and 20 still generate noticeable heat.

Once you get double heatsinks the Heavy PPC pretty much becomes the one weapon you will stick on everything if you can't mount a Gauss Rifle. At 10 tons a lot of mechs can carry it, at 15 heat every mech can tax it as their primary weapon. Being ammo independent and capable of headcapping it just blows the class 10 autocannons out of the water. The class 20s are too heavy to compete. And the 5s and 2s just do too little damage for their weight to even be worth it as a main weapon.
(That is why I see the LRM as the main weapon on the Garm and the LB-5-X as a backup and crit seeker/AA gun.)

ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #71 on: 23 November 2011, 04:51:57 »
The Heavy PPC will not help much if its a combined-arms games, hence CGL's busy promotion of the idea.

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #72 on: 23 November 2011, 07:19:32 »
The FS has always had an "anything goes" identity. Besides, the Salamander, Gunslinger and Sunder have never been produced within the Suns and have never been Davion icons. The Templar is more of an oversized heavy cavalry 'Mech. The Sagittaire fits well with our pulse boats. The Emperor, although would fit the OP, i think has the excuse of twin LBX-10s. The Suns were the ones who discovered the Devastator anyway, so if its not Davion, it wont belong anywhere. The Warlord is too optimized, but the BattleMaster was Hanse's personal ride, so YMMV.

I didn't really mean that any one of those designs weren't 'Davion' but rather that the fact that there are all those assault designs under our banner just isn't very 'Davion'. Each of them, individually, make sense, but all of them together make the House seem top-heavy. The real strength of FS lies in combined arms and the effective use of mediums and lights against heavier machines, not massive optimized assault designs like the Devastator (a design I love to hate).

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #73 on: 23 November 2011, 07:27:44 »
Those 'Mechs were more accepted due to our being the Fed Com back then, but you see the return of lighter designs since the beginning of the Jihad. However, with the LCT formation, its either the 'Mechs packing heavy firepower to support the tanks or the 'Mechs becoming heavy cavalry hammer to the tanks' anvil.

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #74 on: 23 November 2011, 09:21:52 »
The other one that always struck me as odd was the Flashman for the Lyrans. When the non-Introtech version shows up for them (and until the later 55/58 units show up) it is such a weird little design to fit in with the rest of the Lyran units.

Nevermind how it fits with Lyran units, look at how it fits with the Thug!

Imagine you're downtech'ing 2750 'Mechs. One is an assault 'Mech with PPCs, the other is a heavy originally noted for how its arms (carrying large lasers) sometimes get grafted onto other 'Mechs. Which one do you give to the house noted for assault 'Mechs? Which one do you give to the house noted for not having assault 'Mechs, not having PPCs, and for grafting large lasers onto the arms of other 'Mech designs?  [metalhealth] #P
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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #75 on: 23 November 2011, 10:51:02 »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe it was the most well-armored 4/6 'Mech carrying an AC/20 before the Clan Invasion...except for the AC/20 Banshee, but the AC/20 Banshee didn't have an extra Medium Laser and two extra SRM-6 racks.

But the Banshee can fire it's AC for 30 turns.
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Dread Moores

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #76 on: 23 November 2011, 13:20:35 »
I didn't say lighter. Just the special munitions.

The point is, they already are lighter (at least the gold standard of LBXs, the LB10X is). It's the death blow for the standard AC/10 to have LBXs also have specialty munitions. At least this way, regular ACs get some point. But the LB10X being lighter issue, that goes back quite a ways. IS LB10Xs (and LBXs in general) suffer from being designed across different generations of the game (and some significant changes on the core design team).

It's a shame that LBX (and SBGR) weren't just handled as specialty ammunition all around. It would have made things so much easier, especially on the Clan side. Nothing to change about it now.

Youngblood

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #77 on: 23 November 2011, 17:12:54 »
But the Banshee can fire it's AC for 30 turns.

I know, I like it too. :) But it needs a lancemate to help crit-seek for it.

Because that's the way BattleTech is. Obsoleteness gives way to progress. X-Pulse lasers are totally superior to Pulse Lasers. PPCs are almost obsolete when theres 3 stripes of new PPCs to suit different needs. Heck, RetroTech was completely discarded even in the tech-poor Succession Wars. So it's not that big a leap for LBXs to supplant ACs just as ACs supplanted Rifles.

Yet Retrotech was needed even -after- the Succession Wars thanks to demand when the Word decided to throw down.  Necessity is the mother of creation, not time.

(Also, I contest that X-pulse Lasers are not superior to Pulse Lasers in that the increased range being traded off for heat greatly reduces the amount of firepower a unit can project in one round; it's especially apparent on vehicles, where they're limited by Heat Sinks in construction rules, as well as faster 'Mechs [for which range is less important] that rely on Medium Pulse Laser-boating, like the Nightsky or recent Ostsols.)

And speaking from an out-of-universe perspective, weren't RetroTech units and Rifles created -after- the standard technology in the Inner Sphere was established and given fluff?  It appears there was a desire to create so-called "obsolete" equipment for the enjoyment of players even as the technology level of the Sphere went through the roof.  Some people apparently like fighting with rusty pitchforks, man!

Actually due to their large crit size and the way special munition ammo rules reduce the amount work, it isn't actually that beneficial for assaults to carry them. But then assaults have always been units that favoured mixing the ballistic and energy weapons together. Because they have the free tonnage, just not the crit space.
However when it comes to lighter weight mechs that can usually only afford one big weapon system, the autocannon has always lacked behind due to their heavy weight, large size, ammo dependence and in the case of earlier eras. The class 10 and 20 still generate noticeable heat.

Once you get double heatsinks the Heavy PPC pretty much becomes the one weapon you will stick on everything if you can't mount a Gauss Rifle. At 10 tons a lot of mechs can carry it, at 15 heat every mech can tax it as their primary weapon. Being ammo independent and capable of headcapping it just blows the class 10 autocannons out of the water. The class 20s are too heavy to compete. And the 5s and 2s just do too little damage for their weight to even be worth it as a main weapon.
(That is why I see the LRM as the main weapon on the Garm and the LB-5-X as a backup and crit seeker/AA gun.)

Inner Sphere Double Heat Sinks are a big deal when you try to energy-boat with an assault 'Mech, because often a lot of them will be outside of the engine taking up 3 crits apiece, which can really add up.  And that's why Gauss Rifles are okay to use on them!

Right, I didn't mention 'Mechs lighter than 80 tons for a reason...the weight game is completely different once you have to worry about all the other stuff a 'Mech can do in design.  Still, it doesn't stop TPTB from sticking Rotary AC/2s on Wolverines!

I'd advise against the overuse of Heavy PPCs, though--there are 'Mech-hunter 'Mechs out there designed to chase skirmishers down and get within minimum HPPC or missile range, throttling them with Pulse Lasers and melee weapons.

jklantern

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #78 on: 23 November 2011, 19:28:15 »
But the Banshee can fire it's AC for 30 turns.

 [drool]

(Considering I love any and all Banshee mechs as well...)
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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #79 on: 23 November 2011, 19:49:22 »
So, every faction has a few 'mechs that while otherwise solid, don't quite seem to fit in with everything else they build. Sure, you may use them, but you die a little inside when you do. For me, it's the Sunder and the Black Hawk-KU. Sure, they're both great 'mechs, and they both fit well into the doctrinaire AFFS approach to battle: fast assaults, and highly mobile heavy cavalry.

But at the same time: it would be hard to find two 'mechs so egregiously Kuritan as these. Heck, the Black Hawk-KU even has it right there in the name! It kind of kills the thrill of the whole "ancient enemies striding into battle" schtick when your enemies are using the exact same guys as you are. You may call it Battletech. I call it communism.

So. What 'mechs built by your faction would you rather it didn't? Show your work. 
I was trying to come up w/ something besides the Kurita Omnis you mentioned and I'm having a heck of a time finding a very "un-Davion" design.

I'm not sure we needed the Sagitaire, as fun as it is in the City, but I'm having a hard time w/ most of the other stuff.

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #80 on: 23 November 2011, 19:50:51 »
I gotta go with Penthesilea.  It's got fine stats, don't get me wrong, but...geez, that thing's uglier and shoddier-looking than a Temax Cat Ninjabolt.
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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #81 on: 23 November 2011, 19:53:56 »
Definitely this.  I swear, there are people out there who can't see Capellans having BattleMechs (as in, made for BATTLE) in the first place!  And yes, a giant robot needs an AC/20 for me to consider it a BattleMech. :P

To those still squirming about the Capellans having AC/20s, they -were- the first ones to redesign the Charger to have it--the Charger -1A5.  Way better than the Hunchback in its day.  }:)

Didn't the Kuritan's do that and sold it to the Liaos ?   I thought I read that somewhere.

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Youngblood

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #82 on: 23 November 2011, 20:07:02 »
Didn't the Kuritan's do that and sold it to the Liaos ?   I thought I read that somewhere.

Quote from: TRO 3039, p. 156
The CGR-1A5 variant was a Capellan modification.

ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #83 on: 23 November 2011, 20:38:47 »
Yet Retrotech was needed even -after- the Succession Wars thanks to demand when the Word decided to throw down.  Necessity is the mother of creation, not time.

(Also, I contest that X-pulse Lasers are not superior to Pulse Lasers in that the increased range being traded off for heat greatly reduces the amount of firepower a unit can project in one round; it's especially apparent on vehicles, where they're limited by Heat Sinks in construction rules, as well as faster 'Mechs [for which range is less important] that rely on Medium Pulse Laser-boating, like the Nightsky or recent Ostsols.)

And speaking from an out-of-universe perspective, weren't RetroTech units and Rifles created -after- the standard technology in the Inner Sphere was established and given fluff?  It appears there was a desire to create so-called "obsolete" equipment for the enjoyment of players even as the technology level of the Sphere went through the roof.  Some people apparently like fighting with rusty pitchforks, man!

RetroTech was mostly phased out by the Successor States after the Jihad. Isn't that a telling sign? RetroTech is there to fluff out the pre-Star League era. Unless its a periphery or podunk unit, people would use Succession Wars tech at the least in the modern era.

X-Pulse lasers are good on 'Mechs. Pulse lasers are good on ASFs. Vehicles are better off with LACs or some other non-beam weapon if it gets over their base sink count. And for that matter, if ACs are obsoleted by LBXs using specialty munitions, its no big deal. ACs are good for games in the pre-Clan era, but after that...only special because of the specialty ammo.

Youngblood

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #84 on: 23 November 2011, 21:07:38 »
RetroTech was mostly phased out by the Successor States after the Jihad. Isn't that a telling sign? RetroTech is there to fluff out the pre-Star League era. Unless its a periphery or podunk unit, people would use Succession Wars tech at the least in the modern era.

I don't argue against that.  My point was that RetroTech, which you say standard ACs and PPCs are fast becoming, are still BattleTech too, no matter the age.  And the great part about BattleTech is that all equipement is still compatible with any era or scenario!

Quote
X-Pulse lasers are good on 'Mechs. Pulse lasers are good on ASFs. Vehicles are better off with LACs or some other non-beam weapon if it gets over their base sink count. And for that matter, if ACs are obsoleted by LBXs using specialty munitions, its no big deal. ACs are good for games in the pre-Clan era, but after that...only special because of the specialty ammo.

Well, I don't care either way, but I'm sure there are players out there who will cite that no BattleTech weapon has ever been phased out, ever.

Specialty ammo is REALLY SPECIAL to me, though.  You'll have to excuse me when I tell others that I enjoy using standard AC/20s in the most...extreme ways possible.  I'd marry one if only the mutual relationship were more sustainable.  :))

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #85 on: 23 November 2011, 21:46:33 »
I don't argue against that.  My point was that RetroTech, which you say standard ACs and PPCs are fast becoming, are still BattleTech too, no matter the age.  And the great part about BattleTech is that all equipement is still compatible with any era or scenario!

(bolded for emphasis on relevant part)

Actually, to me, the greatest part about BattleTech is that all equipment has as valid a chance of taking something down, regardless
of the age. Sure, a tank with only Heavy Rifles might have to work at it, same with an original model Primitive Mackie or Primitive Dervish..
but they are all still dangerous enough that you cannot ignore them...
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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #86 on: 23 November 2011, 22:53:31 »
But at the same time: it would be hard to find two 'mechs so egregiously Kuritan as these. Heck, the Black Hawk-KU even has it right there in the name! It kind of kills the thrill of the whole "ancient enemies striding into battle" schtick when your enemies are using the exact same guys as you are. You may call it Battletech. I call it communism.

You call it communism, I call it realpolitik.  There are very few real life major powers that continously remain bitter enemies for long periods of time, the reality of the world simply doesn't allow it.  Eternal grudges are a priviledge that can only be enjoyed by bit players.  Why should BT be any different.

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #87 on: 23 November 2011, 23:05:35 »
You call it communism, I call it realpolitik.  There are very few real life major powers that continously remain bitter enemies for long periods of time, the reality of the world simply doesn't allow it.  Eternal grudges are a priviledge that can only be enjoyed by bit players.  Why should BT be any different.

That's fine, but the Berlin Brigade never used T-55s, and the Germans never built themselves a straight-up T-34. How cool would the Cold war have been if everyone had T-80s and flew F-15s? Not very.
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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #88 on: 23 November 2011, 23:36:53 »
That's fine, but the Berlin Brigade never used T-55s, and the Germans never built themselves a straight-up T-34.

You are picking a very narrow point in time.  Look at the US military in the last two decades.  There are a number of former Soviet vehicles serving in the US military now.


Quote
How cool would the Cold war have been if everyone had T-80s and flew F-15s? Not very.

WTF?  Do you know how many service people on all sides died during the Cold War?  There was nothing "cool" about it.  And to avoid a nastygram from the Mods, I'm going to quote Forrest Gump at this point: "That's all I'm gonna say about that" then walk away.

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Re: (Good) 'Mechs you wish your house didn't build.
« Reply #89 on: 23 November 2011, 23:52:04 »
You are picking a very narrow point in time.  Look at the US military in the last two decades.  There are a number of former Soviet vehicles serving in the US military now.

Name one. Russian equipment is for lack of a better term crap. Its outdated, shoddy, thin armored, and a beast to work with.

After spending time for Uncle Sam in Afghanistan, and seeing what the Afghans had after the Soviet invasion, American (or even European made) equipment far surpasses the top of the line Russian equipment.

Now the only thing I will conceed is that the Russians made that kicked ours was there assualt weapons. The AK series of small arms is the most rugged weapons out there with a close second being the Germans with the G36 [still mad at myself for not qualifing and getting my Shootensneir(sp?)]
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