Author Topic: Clan Protectorate  (Read 202168 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #930 on: 04 July 2021, 16:03:39 »
He was in a ATM Shadow Hawk IIC when he had gained more rank.  IIRC his Firestarter from MWDA was a pretty regular, like a FS9 series.

While he is a character, he is also a commander and needs something more survivable.  It would be different if it was something like a Havoc which at least has the speed to avoid most things it cannot outfight.
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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #931 on: 04 July 2021, 20:59:31 »
There is literally no difference between a Firestarter and Great Turtle in whether he'll be shot down though.  No one (who isn't a hack) is playing actual games of BT to determine how a fight goes for a given character, and whether or not he's shot down and survives or dies has absolutely nothing to do with the mech he's in.
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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #932 on: 04 July 2021, 21:28:29 »
Characters in assault 'Mechs will die from shots to the head same as anyone else. Probably more likely come to think of it, VSD got lucky and survived.

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #933 on: 04 July 2021, 22:13:13 »
Nicholas Kerensky agrees.  Fried by a large laser to the cockpit.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #934 on: 05 July 2021, 01:50:41 »
There is literally no difference between a Firestarter and Great Turtle in whether he'll be shot down though.  No one (who isn't a hack) is playing actual games of BT to determine how a fight goes for a given character, and whether or not he's shot down and survives or dies has absolutely nothing to do with the mech he's in.

Yeah, because plausibility does not enter into story telling at all.  Considering we have a half dozen threads about what a commander should ride and their position, just asking that he get something more survivable- and 6/9/6 light in 3145 is like a 4/6/4 in 3050- even if it is a better light rather than heavier.  I also never suggested an assault.
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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #935 on: 05 July 2021, 02:10:13 »
It's plausible to suggest that any mech that isn’t a garbage fire will survive a given encounter and the pilot will survive going to ground with it if it doesn't.  What the mech actually is is completely irrelevant to the needs of the story being written.
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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #936 on: 05 July 2021, 15:49:28 »
The mech he is in for the story depends on the needs of the writer but as the leader of the Protectorate you would think he would be piloting a mech actually built by them.

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #937 on: 05 July 2021, 16:12:50 »
The mech he is in for the story depends on the needs of the writer but as the leader of the Protectorate you would think he would be piloting a mech actually built by them.
I'll note it is not uncommon for BT characters to pilot unusual 'Mechs for their nation/Clan.

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #938 on: 05 July 2021, 16:31:31 »
given how short a time the protectorate has existed thus far, much less had their own mech production, that he pilots something not made by them is hardly surprising.

as a composite entity, most of their forces would be composed of hardware that was bought, borrowed, or stolen from other factions, and it'll be a while before domestic production can make a noticeable dent in the makeup.

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #939 on: 05 July 2021, 16:34:05 »
Besides, no point in ditching perfectly functional machine. (Maintenance can't be a real issue, BattleTech magic works usually.)

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #940 on: 05 July 2021, 17:04:41 »
Rikkard is the leader of the  Clan Protectorate. De facto, he is not just a galaxy commander, but the khan of Cats. And he could take absolutely any mech available to the Protectorate and even order something special through Sea Foxes. Therefore, the reason why he  was fighting in Firestarter is clearly not in the absence of other mechs. Unless his main mech was damaged earlier in the same battle and he came out on a backup machine. Or some trial just before battle.
« Last Edit: 05 July 2021, 17:10:35 by Rncavenger »

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #941 on: 05 July 2021, 17:14:53 »
Yet he chooses to pilot a machine best used for starting fires in corn fields and making smoke to mess up people's LoS.

A tactical fellow, very interesting.
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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #942 on: 05 July 2021, 17:28:05 »
There's a Ghost Bear Khan famous for piloting a Fire Moth her whole career.  Familiarity and experience with a particular mech is something that BattleTech categorically fails to acknowledge.  Rickard could very well be significantly better at piloting a Firestarter than any other mech, and be less likely to make a mistake or go somewhere he's too exposed, where the physical durability of the mech is less important and less useful.

It's more interesting - and better writing - to use information already presented and determine how or why that came to be than it is to force something into an efficiency cookie cutter shape.
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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #943 on: 05 July 2021, 17:52:40 »
Possibly but I'd love a Firestarter IIC  ;) (Firestorm works)
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Colt Ward

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #944 on: 06 July 2021, 09:19:07 »
There's a Ghost Bear Khan famous for piloting a Fire Moth her whole career.  Familiarity and experience with a particular mech is something that BattleTech categorically fails to acknowledge.  Rickard could very well be significantly better at piloting a Firestarter than any other mech, and be less likely to make a mistake or go somewhere he's too exposed, where the physical durability of the mech is less important and less useful.

It's more interesting - and better writing - to use information already presented and determine how or why that came to be than it is to force something into an efficiency cookie cutter shape.

The difference is the Fire Moth goes fast enough to survive and can easily mount weapons that reach more than 270 meters.  She was also know IIRC to swap between configs though mostly sticking with the ERMLs of the D- a weapon that hits almost as hard as a standard IS large laser, carrying the weapons load of a medium mech.

Your last sentence absolutely neglects the ONLY mech we ever had him piloting in fiction was a ATM Shadow Hawk IIC.  The Firestarter was just his MWDA fig/dossier- a mech that has 6 regular flamers and a Defiance ERML . . . and 'walked off the assembly line before the fall of the Star League . . .' before the Cats took it as salvage from the Dracs.  Guess at some point it was restored to SL stats w/ its ES frame.

But in the final FWL rebirth arc in the MWDA novels he is leading the Spirit Cats on their invasion of Marik and singles out a Legionnaire that is sent against the Cats in a spoiling attack.  He uses the speed, maneuverability, and flexibility of the Shadow Hawk IIC to take down the Legionnaire with minimal damage- no comments on it being a new mech or unfamiliar or anything along those lines.  It is a very well written, letting the reader picture the two mechs moving against each other in battle quite easily.

The Shadow Hawk IIC is not the 'best' mech they had in their inventory at the time- one of his subordinates pilots a Nova Cat and they already had the material backing of the Sea Foxes above Marik.  It is instead a good average medium mech rather than some uber machine.
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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #945 on: 06 July 2021, 10:07:12 »
Question: Have there been any clear canon statements one way or the other regarding wether or not the Nova Cats that form the core of the Protectorate still have any ProtoMech forces?
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Colt Ward

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #946 on: 06 July 2021, 10:34:51 »
Question: Have there been any clear canon statements one way or the other regarding wether or not the Nova Cats that form the core of the Protectorate still have any ProtoMech forces?

I thought the Nova Cats and Warden Wolves did away with their Proto programs after the Jihad ended.  Both factions had them after the Jaguar destruction and while never said to me the implication was they were the repository for SL captured proto warriors- while they had protos in the RATs nothing ever said they built them afaik nor did they design their own.  Guess you could look at Obj Clans to see if either produced Protos, or LC/DC respectively if they are in their host's PDF.  I do not have any of those 3 so I could not say.
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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #947 on: 06 July 2021, 12:24:11 »
We know the Cats built Protos after the Jihad at least, owing to the Satyr XP in TRO Prototypes. I'm just wondering if a canon source has clearly said one way or the other about them by the time of the Protectorate. I wanna know if I can feasibly place ProtoMechs in FWL service. :)
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Colt Ward

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #948 on: 06 July 2021, 12:31:37 »
Informally known among the FWLM as the 'Purple People Eaters' . . .

Was the Satyr actually factory produced or modified for the remaining Proto pilots?  I am not sure the Cats or the Warden Wolves retained their washed out pilots to convert them- different bits actually show the Wolves had people leave the Clan and when sipping Stone's kool-aid were BS/SV levels strict on who actually became warriors.  For the Nova Cats I cannot speak to them as much.

But a reasonable interpretation of the existence of a XP model is they were modifying Satyrs for longer deployment/use (FREX, the B-52 . . . ) with their remaining Jaguar abathka proto pilots.  If it shows up under later MUL/RAT lists, the simple answer is they sold what they did to the Sharkfoxes and it propagated from that point onward.  IMO a interesting question that has not been answered was that the Sharks had been selling Protos- do they still build them into the 3150s for sale to Ravens & Horses . . . and Scorpions?
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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #949 on: 06 July 2021, 12:36:29 »
I'd assume the Second Combine-Ghost Bear war destroyed Nova Cat ProtoMech industry.

EDIT MUL has no ProtoMechs for Nova Cats after Early Republic era. And Historical: Wars of the Republic Era notes: "With their largest manufacturing facilities in ruin and most of the entire Nova Cat touman destroyed on Irece, there was no way to rebuild."
I would assume that most certainly covers Nova Cat ProtoMechs.

EDIT Note this happens after TRO Prototypes.
« Last Edit: 06 July 2021, 12:42:02 by Empyrus »

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #950 on: 06 July 2021, 13:09:57 »
Informally known among the FWLM as the 'Purple People Eaters' . . .

Was the Satyr actually factory produced or modified for the remaining Proto pilots?

Does it matter? Wether building new ones or continuing to use old ones, usage is usage.

I'd assume the Second Combine-Ghost Bear war destroyed Nova Cat ProtoMech industry.
Assuming is exactly what I'm refusing to do here.
Quote
MUL has no ProtoMechs for Nova Cats after Early Republic era.

That's pretty much the kind of clear source I was looking for, thanks.
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Walrus Gumboot

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #951 on: 06 July 2021, 13:21:56 »
The difference is the Fire Moth goes fast enough to survive and can easily mount weapons that reach more than 270 meters.  She was also know IIRC to swap between configs though mostly sticking with the ERMLs of the D- a weapon that hits almost as hard as a standard IS large laser, carrying the weapons load of a medium mech.

Your last sentence absolutely neglects the ONLY mech we ever had him piloting in fiction was a ATM Shadow Hawk IIC.  The Firestarter was just his MWDA fig/dossier- a mech that has 6 regular flamers and a Defiance ERML . . . and 'walked off the assembly line before the fall of the Star League . . .' before the Cats took it as salvage from the Dracs.  Guess at some point it was restored to SL stats w/ its ES frame.

But in the final FWL rebirth arc in the MWDA novels he is leading the Spirit Cats on their invasion of Marik and singles out a Legionnaire that is sent against the Cats in a spoiling attack.  He uses the speed, maneuverability, and flexibility of the Shadow Hawk IIC to take down the Legionnaire with minimal damage- no comments on it being a new mech or unfamiliar or anything along those lines.  It is a very well written, letting the reader picture the two mechs moving against each other in battle quite easily.

The Shadow Hawk IIC is not the 'best' mech they had in their inventory at the time- one of his subordinates pilots a Nova Cat and they already had the material backing of the Sea Foxes above Marik.  It is instead a good average medium mech rather than some uber machine.

While it's very contrary to downstream normal Clan sentiments, Rikkard could be a few years into being more a statesman than Galaxy commander; somebody else got the Shadowcat and it's his old Firestarter that sits in the hanger most of the time as he pilots a desk.

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #952 on: 06 July 2021, 13:38:48 »
Come to think of it, the ProtoMechs would've been a perfect thing to focus when rebuilding. Not as resource intensive as full BattleMechs.
Of course, the Nova Cats basically didn't even seem to rebuild much...

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #953 on: 06 July 2021, 14:13:03 »
Come to think of it, the ProtoMechs would've been a perfect thing to focus when rebuilding. Not as resource intensive as full BattleMechs.
Of course, the Nova Cats basically didn't even seem to rebuild much...

I think protomech production has a weird catch-22. While they build faster and more resource-efficient than Battlemechs for battlemech-like performance, you need a very advanced industrial base to make them. So Nova Cats that are congratulating themselves on getting some Arbelests built might not be up to Clan Blood Spirit Reaving-era protomech armies.

EDIT: Another thing is that the Nova Cats had access to the DCMS sources of supply.
« Last Edit: 06 July 2021, 14:21:23 by Walrus Gumboot »

Colt Ward

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #954 on: 06 July 2021, 14:18:44 »
Does it matter? Whether building new ones or continuing to use old ones, usage is usage.

Iran uses the F-14 . . . no one else does any more.  They refit and rebuild them since they cannot build any more of those or of another type.  If they converted a existing Satyr into the XP- like most prototypes of this sort of thing- then it does not mean they ever built them or build any Satyrs in the first place.


This-
I'd assume the Second Combine-Ghost Bear war destroyed Nova Cat ProtoMech industry.

*snip* And Historical: Wars of the Republic Era notes: "With their largest manufacturing facilities in ruin and most of the entire Nova Cat touman destroyed on Irece, there was no way to rebuild."
I would assume that most certainly covers Nova Cat ProtoMechs.

Is how you get this-

EDIT MUL has no ProtoMechs for Nova Cats after Early Republic era.

By Early Republic any Jaguar abathka the Star League gave them would have been in service for 20 years . . . about the same for any early 'experimental' sibkos the Cats did  at their early relocation.
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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #955 on: 06 July 2021, 14:33:27 »
Iran uses the F-14 . . . no one else does any more.  They refit and rebuild them since they cannot build any more of those or of another type.  If they converted a existing Satyr into the XP- like most prototypes of this sort of thing- then it does not mean they ever built them or build any Satyrs in the first place.

That's not at all what I was asking. What I was seeking was something absolute and clear-cut like these:

MUL has no ProtoMechs for Nova Cats after Early Republic era.
Or this
Iran uses the F-14

I apologize if I wasn't clear earlier. I did not care one bit of the Nova Cats were building Protos, which is why no part of my initial question ever mentioned production. I was only asking about usage. This is a setting where individual units can last for centuries. Telling someone that Faction X does not produce Unit Y is in no way whatsoever telling them that Faction X does not deploy Unit Y.

That said, the very clear answer about the MUL is exactly what I was seeking, thank y'all very much.
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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #956 on: 06 July 2021, 16:37:56 »
Question: Have there been any clear canon statements one way or the other regarding wether or not the Nova Cats that form the core of the Protectorate still have any ProtoMech forces?

Also ER 3145 mentions CHH and CSR are the only peoples using protomechs by that time.
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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #957 on: 06 July 2021, 17:52:40 »
Come to think of it, the ProtoMechs would've been a perfect thing to focus when rebuilding. Not as resource intensive as full BattleMechs.
Of course, the Nova Cats basically didn't even seem to rebuild much...

The problem with protos is you do need decent aerospace breeding for a lot of the models (though the larger ones should have space for bigger pilots) you'd also need factories to produce them, engineers who know how they are built and how they work, designers and doctors capable of implanting Enhanced Imaging tech...

All in all quite a bit of resources not saying they couldn't get from the Foxes but if you get all that you may as well just join the Foxes

Could Kishos lot have some of that? Maybe but even combining that with what you have in the Protectorate I think they'd struggle to get ProtoMechs off the ground
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https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,52013.0.html - Part 2

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #958 on: 06 July 2021, 20:48:39 »
the Foxes are already part of the protectorate (or at least one Aimag joined) so if the Protectorate wants to set up a Protomech factory i'm sure they could.
personally i'm hoping they do, because proto's are fun and the lack of people using them in the IS clans is frustrating. it would be a good way to set the Spirit Cats/Protectorate apart from the Wolves and Falcons.

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Re: Clan Protectorate
« Reply #959 on: 06 July 2021, 21:07:18 »
the Foxes are already part of the protectorate (or at least one Aimag joined) so if the Protectorate wants to set up a Protomech factory i'm sure they could.
personally i'm hoping they do, because proto's are fun and the lack of people using them in the IS clans is frustrating. it would be a good way to set the Spirit Cats/Protectorate apart from the Wolves and Falcons.

Protomechs aren't just another weapons system, though. They are a weapon for the desperate, the reckless or the callous. The Spirit Cats seem a bit too even-keeled to go in for them, which is admittedly a weird read on people that followed a vision quest on an interstellar campaign against daunting odds and many setbacks.