Janos Marik -- a good leader who was just (incredibly) unlucky?

[False Son]

Janos was indeed the Janus of the FWL, in the first two decades he was a good leader, who tried to work with the FWL Parliament rather than subvert it.
The last 2 decades he was a sad bitter man, who was betrayed by his grasping and venal  children & family.

Over the years my sympathies have drifted closer to Anton and Duncan.  Janos should have stepped down ages ago to let someone capable and interested be Captain-General.  I don't condone murder, but Janos had enough sympathy in FWLP to continue driving the League into the ground.

[The Eagle]

And Anton or Duncan would have been a better choice?  Anton was driven by lust for power and a desire to avenge his academy buddy Crawford so much so that he made a backdoor deal with the devil.  Duncan was just a glory-hound who took credit for military success from his underlings; even as poorly viewed as Janos was by most of his contemporaries, Dame Humphries was dismissive of Duncan and his strategic sense in comparison to Janos.  Basically, one's a murderous traitor and the other is a murderous traitor who didn't know what he was doing.

Frankly, I'd have rather Janos cancelled Resolution 288 and let Parliament take over than have let either of those two sit the throne.

[False Son]

And Anton or Duncan would have been a better choice? 

Duncan, no.  Anton, perhaps.

Anton was driven by lust for power and a desire to avenge his academy buddy Crawford so much so that he made a backdoor deal with the devil. 

That was just the final straw.  You may remember that Janos and Anton were a tag team when they started their careers.  Janos was supposed to handle the politics to repair the damage Stephen Marik did, while Anton was supposed to handle the military.  Not only did Janos fail to make headway in politics, he resorted to using a practice like military execution to set an example.  Good jorb.  Anton dealing with Max Liao was bad in the context of the the revolt's civil war.  Had he won, a closer relationship with Sian might not have led to Janos style passive aggression in the 4th Succession War or the Andurien Crisis, which was caused by the weakness of the CapCon in the face of Janos's decision to not help his ally.  We don't know if that is true, but we do know what Janos did in the remaining years of his reign.  It leaves tremendous amounts of room for speculation that yes, the League might have been better off.

By the way, one of the reasons Anton lost the war was Janos bullying Regulus and Andurien into action late in the revolt.  He couldn't court the Regulans back to being Marik loyalists, couldn't fish Andurien out of their self impossed isolation, but he could bully them into contributing forces when his own brother decides to overthrow him.  What a stellar guy.

Duncan was just a glory-hound who took credit for military success from his underlings; even as poorly viewed as Janos was by most of his contemporaries, Dame Humphries was dismissive of Duncan and his strategic sense in comparison to Janos. 

I'll give you that Duncan was not a good replacement, and that his methods were wrong.  But, I agree with the idea that Janos was unfit and unwilling to let his grip on power go.  Janos comes in dead last on my list of bombing victims to mourn, even behind his nutjob son.  Even in a crippled state Janos wasn't stepping down.  Even after causing the crisis, he wasn't stepping down.  Instead he brings in his son Thomas, with no military background to act as a mouthpiece and undermine FWLP's authority in order to solve a problem he himself created.

Basically, one's a murderous traitor and the other is a murderous traitor who didn't know what he was doing.

And yet i'd prefer either one to Janos.  If only because what comes afterwards is unknown, whereas the later years of Janos's reign were a disgrace.  Dictator for life!  If Crawford could be executed for incompetance Janos should have been tied to the same post.

Frankly, I'd have rather Janos cancelled Resolution 288 and let Parliament take over than have let either of those two sit the throne.

That'd be pretty sweet, right?  No more First Lordship ambitions from the Marik dynasty to push the League into pointless devastating wars.  BT doesn't have happy endings, though.

[Frabby]

Anton was driven by lust for power and a desire to avenge his academy buddy Crawford so much so that he made a backdoor deal with the devil.

I disagree so much that I'm considering writing a Character-of-the-week article about Anton now. False Son already mapped out the answer. Basically, Anton was a carbon copy of Janos minus Janos' disillusionment. When Janos stopped being an effective leader Anton stepped up, only to be tripped by the very same traps laid out by their enemies in a mere fraction of the time. Actually he was already almost done falling on his face when he made his grab for power. His motivation and the tragedy of his failure also mirror Janos.

[The Eagle]

I disagree so much that I'm considering writing a Character-of-the-week article about Anton now. False Son already mapped out the answer. Basically, Anton was a carbon copy of Janos minus Janos' disillusionment. When Janos stopped being an effective leader Anton stepped up, only to be tripped by the very same traps laid out by their enemies in a mere fraction of the time. Actually he was already almost done falling on his face when he made his grab for power. His motivation and the tragedy of his failure also mirror Janos.

So your argument that Anton was better than Janos is based on the fact that Anton fell for the traps that Janos did, but in a much shorter time frame?  You do realize that makes Anton less capable than Janos, right?

[False Son]

I'd agree they were both similar in that they underestimated the complexity of FWL politics.  Anton assumed that Janos was so unpopular that his rebellion would be met with more support than it really was.  On the other hand, Janos was not so hated as to be stripped of power.  Niether could mobilize FWLP, and in the end both of them being bullies is what settled the revolt.  For Janos it was shouting out Dame Humphreys and Prince Cameron-Jones.  Their contributions resulted in one of the few defeats of Wolf's Dragoons in those days.  For Anton it meant Natasha Kerensky rampaging through Anton's CP when he attempted to coerce Wolf's Dragoons.  Ah, Mariks. 

[Frabby]

So your argument that Anton was better than Janos is based on the fact that Anton fell for the traps that Janos did, but in a much shorter time frame?  You do realize that makes Anton less capable than Janos, right?

No. I argue that Anton was exactly as good as Janos - a carbon copy, basically. He wasn't better, except that he had conserved his strength and idealism where Janos' strength and idealism had evaporated between the realities of the Captain-General job and personal tragedies. Anton's mistake was that when he saw Janos failing, he assumed Janos was failing on his own behalf; Anton didn't suspect (and therefore, failed to protect himself from) outside influences such as Liao, Davion and ComStar or at least grossly underestimated their power.

But what I mainly wanted to say is that Anton, just like Janos before him, was genuinely concerned for the welfare of the League. He wasn't power hungry enough to make the power grab all by himself, he was carefully manipulated by Liao and ComStar to make that doomed move, with the full intention of destroying him (though probably not in the way it played out). The Crawford execution reinforced Anton's feelings that Janos had lost it and certainly played a part, but in the context of the manipulations already going on I don't consider the execution a pivotal factor.

[False Son]

Real quick,

No. I argue that Anton was exactly as good as Janos - a carbon copy, basically. He wasn't better, except that he had conserved his strength and idealism where Janos' strength and idealism had evaporated between the realities of the Captain-General job and personal tragedies.

Janos was a failure as a military leader.  He stripped the Capellan border to focus on the Lyrans at a time when the Lyrans had never been mroe incompetant.  Not only did he lose 2 battles on Hesperus in his tenure, he proceeded with the Solaris attack despite the worsening situation.  Crawford can be guilt of being overly zealous, but not the archetect of the plan's failure.  Janos executed Crawford in an act of petty blame shifting.  His disollusion wasn't entirely the fault of personal tradgedies.  He was a failure all by himself.

But what I mainly wanted to say is that Anton, just like Janos before him, was genuinely concerned for the welfare of the League. He wasn't power hungry enough to make the power grab all by himself, he was carefully manipulated by Liao and ComStar to make that doomed move, with the full intention of destroying him (though probably not in the way it played out).

Don't forget, there were members of the planned coup against Stephen Marik that courted Anton.  It is one thing to be a murdering glory hound like Duncan.  It's another thing to seize upon existing disatisfaction with the sitting ruler.  The difference might be easily overlooked, but it is there.  These were the same conspirators that wanted Janos on the throne.

The Crawford execution reinforced Anton's feelings that Janos had lost it and certainly played a part, but in the context of the manipulations already going on I don't consider the execution a pivotal factor.

The execution was vital.   

I can't speak for everyone, but the sequence of events leads me to Anton's corner.  Anton was the man to replace Janos, whether by opportunity or ability.  You have to remember the chain of events.   Janos was a wreck prior to the revolt, and only got worse as time passed.  Could Anton have been worse?  Yeah, maybe.  But that is open to speculation in hindsight.  We know Janos set the League on a course of self-destruction.

[Frabby]

Actually, Janos was fairly successful in fighting the rampant corruption and incompetence in the FWLM initially. This is spelled out in canon. Even though they still lost against the Lyrans, not only was their performance a markedly above what it had been before; more importantly, the FWL regained the initiative.
The CC front? That was Anton's job, not Janos' - Anton was a Duke precisely to be the FWL warlord on the Capellan front. And by all accounts he acquitted himself well there.

The rushed attack on Solaris VII was because of political pressure. It may not have been Janos' wisest move, but the available sources make it pretty clear that it was Crawford who turned defeat in a tough but possible mission into disaster by stubbornly pressing the attack when he must have seen that it was futile, losing the greater part of his force for no good reason. I don't see blame shifting here. Crawford's explicit job at Solaris was to prevent exactly this kind of disaster from happening that he caused. He messed up royally, to the point where the backlash threatened Janos' position. That's what forced Janos hand in the execution.
I think the point is that Janos' hand was forced by external factors all the time when things went wrong. I'm arguing that he was failed more than he failed by himself.

I'm with you in the observation that by 3015 Janos had changed from a shining beacon into a liability for the FWL. This was the reason why Anton - who had the same training, shared the same ideals, and still had the fire - decided he needed to make his ill-advised power grab. By blaming it all on Janos, Anton never took precautions against failing in a similar way though. The Crawford execution made him susceptible to critical manipulation and was the last straw, an impetus to actually do it. But the real reasons were all there before.

[blackjack]

I still want to know what was with the face tattoo.  Was any reason ever given for it?  Gotta be one of the more...unique attributes of any Great House leader ever.

I thought they mentioned (Old House Marik Book?) that it was kind of a fashion statement for the upper crust of Marik society. A mark showing your loyalty to the Free Worlds League.