Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?

[Alan Grant]

On Clan Dropships, are the gunners warriors?

I know that the officers are generally considered to be warriors. The question is squarely aimed at the gunners.

The TRO: 3057 listing for the Carrier dropship for example states a crew of 4 officers (warriors), 2 enlisted/non-rated (lower caste), 11 gunners (????) and 20 bay personnel (lower caste).

[snewsom2997]

On Clan Dropships, are the gunners warriors?

I know that the officers are generally considered to be warriors. The question is squarely aimed at the gunners.

The TRO: 3057 listing for the Carrier dropship for example states a crew of 4 officers (warriors), 2 enlisted/non-rated (lower caste), 11 gunners (????) and 20 bay personnel (lower caste).

The gunners just push buttons so civies, the warriors call the targets. The bay personnel are split, 10 for ASF pilots, and 10 for ASF techs.

[epic]

I always figured the gunners were aerospace pilot washouts - as were often the crew.  Also, the freebirth wannabes that got thru training but washed out in final Testing. 

[Kojak]

This seems like a question worth asking on the Ask the Lead Developers board.

[Knightmare]

I was under the impression that gunners came from the technician caste.

[Rtifs]

More than likely technicians who washed out of warrior training, but not necessarily.  In “Bloodname” Joanna takes on a gunnery position on a dropship.  I don’t remember why the regular crew didn’t do it though. 

[Knightmare]

More than likely technicians who washed out of warrior training, but not necessarily.  In “Bloodname” Joanna takes on a gunnery position on a dropship.  I don’t remember why the regular crew didn’t do it though.

Since that reference is from an early novel, it may have been a special occasion. Plus, Joanna is the least likely person to let a technician fire a weapon while she sits idly by. Honestly, would you want to tell Joanna she can't fire the turret?

[nerd]

IIRC, the usual gunner was ill or not able to do his duties. It's been a loooong time since I read that book though.

[Alan Grant]

I've been mulling this over a lot and I'm guessing lower caste (that includes "washouts" who are effectively relegated to lower caste status). I mean if every carrier class dropship carried warriors as gunners, that's 15 warriors total to man the ship. Times that by how many carrier dropships in service? Same for all the gunners on all the dropships of any class? You'd have no warriors left to pilot mechs or fighters.

Also, on droppers like a Carrier, the crew is extremely small (4 officers/warriors, 2 enlisted). Since the bay personnel are pilots or technicians who maintain/repair the fighters that leaves just a tiny crew to fulfill all the functions of a space vessel. When you start thinking about just simple maintenance/repairs, medical staff, quartermasters, electrical engineers, reactor engineers, cooks or food prep staff, computer techs, you realize how undermanned the vessel is. There is no way a crew of 6 can have the skills to fill all those functions.

But it starts to make more sense if you think of the 11 gunners as having other specialties. For example gunner "Josh" of the technician caste, might also be the ship's computer network technician when he isn't shooting stuff. That gives you a crew of 17 and suddenly day-to-day operation of the ship seems a lot more plausible.

[snewsom2997]

I've been mulling this over a lot and I'm guessing lower caste (that includes "washouts" who are effectively relegated to lower caste status). I mean if every carrier class dropship carried warriors as gunners, that's 15 warriors total to man the ship. Times that by how many carrier dropships in service? Same for all the gunners on all the dropships of any class? You'd have no warriors left to pilot mechs or fighters.

Also, on droppers like a Carrier, the crew is extremely small (4 officers/warriors, 2 enlisted). Since the bay personnel are pilots or technicians who maintain/repair the fighters that leaves just a tiny crew to fulfill all the functions of a space vessel. When you start thinking about just simple maintenance/repairs, medical staff, quartermasters, electrical engineers, reactor engineers, cooks or food prep staff, computer techs, you realize how undermanned the vessel is. There is no way a crew of 6 can have the skills to fill all those functions.

But it starts to make more sense if you think of the 11 gunners as having other specialties. For example gunner "Josh" of the technician caste, might also be the ship's computer network technician when he isn't shooting stuff. That gives you a crew of 17 and suddenly day-to-day operation of the ship seems a lot more plausible.

Agreed I don't imagine you have a gunner sitting at his chair, all the time, especially when waiting at jump points for the jumpship to recharge.

[wellspring]

OK this is a very naive question, but do gunners actually aim and fire the weapons at all? I always assumed that the name was a holdover from a bygone era, and that they were actually technicians who maintained and operated the weapons but did not actually fire them, much like modern "teamsters" don't actually manage a team of draft animals. Meanwhile, targeting and firing is done from the bridge. After all, we don't have separate to-hit rolls for each individual weapon or bay, right?

I know this contradicts some of the fluff, but much of the fluff contradicts itself on this question anyway.

[FedComGirl]

OK this is a very naive question, but do gunners actually aim and fire the weapons at all? I always assumed that the name was a holdover from a bygone era, and that they were actually technicians who maintained and operated the weapons but did not actually fire them, much like modern "teamsters" don't actually manage a team of draft animals. Meanwhile, targeting and firing is done from the bridge. After all, we don't have separate to-hit rolls for each individual weapon or bay, right?

I know this contradicts some of the fluff, but much of the fluff contradicts itself on this question anyway.

I think it'd depend on how sophisticated the ship is. Ships that aren't as sophisticated would have to have gunners controlling the weapons all the time.  On more sophisticated ships the gunners would be back up in case damage knocks out the controls from the bridge. If that happens control of the guns reverts to local "gunner" control.

There aren't rules for this but this is how it seems to go in all the books and TV/movies involving ship/spaceship combat. I'm also not sure about the clans allowing lesser classes operate weapons. Load and maintain them, yes. But actually fire the weapon where kills help with your honor?  :-\  I think gunners would be Aerospace Warriors who failed their latest flight check enough to ground them but not by so much that they can't retest later. Or they failed but still possess sufficient gunnery skills that they aren't handed a rifle and sent to the infantry.

[Alan Grant]

TRO: 3067 apparently addresses this issue by stating that the officers are warriors and the enlisted/unrated are not warriors. In that TRO gunners aren't stated outright but their number is added to the total number of enlisted/unrated crew. I'm comparing the TRO dropship entries to what's in HMAero. For example the Inner Sphere Assault Triumph in TRO: 3067 says Enlisted/Unrated 9. In HMAero it breaks it down as 3 crew and 6 gunners.

I bring it up because I thought that TRO had just omitted gunners entirely for some reason. I just now realized they just added the two categories together.

[FedComGirl]

TRO: 3067 apparently addresses this issue by stating that the officers are warriors and the enlisted/unrated are not warriors. In that TRO gunners aren't stated outright but their number is added to the total number of enlisted/unrated crew. I'm comparing the TRO dropship entries to what's in HMAero. For example the Inner Sphere Assault Triumph in TRO: 3067 says Enlisted/Unrated 9. In HMAero it breaks it down as 3 crew and 6 gunners.

I bring it up because I thought that TRO had just omitted gunners entirely for some reason. I just now realized they just added the two categories together.

I'll have to read TRO:3067 again. Still it seems contrary to allow non warriors to participate in combat in a combat roll.

[sillybrit]

It undoubtedly comes down to the point that because "inter-Clan naval engagements are so rare" (FM:WC p123), there's going to be little chance for a Warrior gunner to gain glory, especially as there's multiple gunners on most ships.

The gunners on a ship are really little more than extensions of the will of the captain, as he/she decides the course and tactics to be followed, with a greater degree of control over the fate of their subordinates than a Star Colonel has over a Cluster, for example.

With so little possibility of glory and so little control over their fate, to me, it's no wonder that gunners will generally be Technicians.

[FedComGirl]

It undoubtedly comes down to the point that because "inter-Clan naval engagements are so rare" (FM:WC p123), there's going to be little chance for a Warrior gunner to gain glory, especially as there's multiple gunners on most ships.

The gunners on a ship are really little more than extensions of the will of the captain, as he/she decides the course and tactics to be followed, with a greater degree of control over the fate of their subordinates than a Star Colonel has over a Cluster, for example.

With so little possibility of glory and so little control over their fate, to me, it's no wonder that gunners will generally be Technicians.

I would have thought they'd be the aerospace equivalent of a Solhama unit or something but I guess not. Still it seems odd. Wasn't a clan reaved for allowing lower casts to fight?

[wellspring]

I would have thought they'd be the aerospace equivalent of a Solhama unit or something but I guess not. Still it seems odd. Wasn't a clan reaved for allowing lower casts to fight?

This depends. The Smoke Jaguars and Widowmakers both committed the same crime at the same time, and yet were treated very differently in return. Remember the Mongeese were Absorbed for using "the words of the Founder to justify their politics", which if it were a crime then every other clan would be guilty, too. The clans can be remarkably hypocritical, and remarkably hysterical and self-righteous about it. It's part of their appeal.

During Operation: KLONDIKE, in conventional infantry formations only the Point Leader was considered a warrior. The rest were "auxiliaries". IIRC vehicle crews also were mostly non-warriors. It let them bulk their number without abandoning the narrative that Kerensky's 800 warriors conquered the rest of the SLDF remnants.

You could speculate that even most of the bridge crew would be non-warriors, such as chief engineer, comms officer, etc. I've always been curious about the career path of a Clan naval officer but it's always been very vague. Presumably because canon on the subject isn't totally settled either. Rather than start with the grey areas, perhaps we should start with what positions on a WarShip or DropShip are definitively warriors?

[sillybrit]

Consider that when a DropShip or WarShip fights, then - assuming that there's no centralized gunnery system - the gunners are indeed the ones that press the button and inflict damage on the foe, but it's the helmsman who gets them into position, the engineers keeping the systems running, sensor operators engaging in electronic warfare, etc.

So, to an extent, the crew all fight, due to the complex nature of DropShips and WarShips requiring a multitude of tasks to be undertaken in combat, being more akin to a super-sized tank than an ASF. They're obviously also all equally at risk of death if the ship is destroyed or damaged, unlike, for example, a Mech Technician, who is likely to be far from the battlefield where the Mech they maintain is fighting. So if it's simply being in combat that defines the requirement being a Warrior, then technically the whole crew would have to be one. But that runs into the limited glory problem, so the Clans have collectively decided to wave their hands at the whole idea.

The one thing they don't relinquish is command, which is closest there is to a single-person role that can more directly influence the result of combat than any other individual.

EDIT: Another thought. These Technician-gunners would be a perfect outlet for freebirths, particularly in those Clans who don't accept or are reluctant to accept freebirths as Warriors. Not only are you nominaly giving them a combat role, but they also happen to spend a lot of time in space, away from the rest of the non-Warrior population. Such Warrior wannabes could be seen as potential troublemakers and thus isolating them would be beneficial.

[Alan Grant]

Sillybrit I agree with everything you said...except maybe the Edit addition to your post.

I'd assume that these gunners have to go through a lot to be gunners. What I mean is ensuring that they not only extremely skilled but also extremely loyal to the Clan and to The Way of the Clans and willing to adopt a lifestyle that is very military in nature. They may not be warriors per se but the words "man battle stations" have meaning. There is still a lot of military discipline there and a very military lifestyle.

With that in mind, I can see a lot of them being washouts, sibko cadets, whether Trueborn or Freeborn, who did not make it through warrior training, or did not pass their Trial of Position. But in this role their earlier training and the discipline and basic skills are still useful.

I suspect many of the others filling this job belong to the Clan equivalent of "spacer families". These are lower castemen who have spent time in and around space, possibly spent time in zero-G as a child, know what the work is like by watching the adults, and so are somewhat accustomed to the environment. In many cases they might be descendants of the spacers who manned the Clan warships/dropships/jumpships in Operation Klondike, men and women who were all lower caste.

Regardless of who they are or what their history is, I'd think loyalty would be very important, as well as an excellent record of hard work and not being a troublemaker. I don't think troublemakers or potential troublemakers would be tolerated if any viable replacement can be found. In a small metal can in space that is essentially a weapon of war, it might be tempting to mutiny, seize a jumpship and fly away.

So I've always assumed that the lower caste crew on any Clan vessel, are individuals whose loyalty would be classified as being at least very reliable if not fanatical. Individuals who demonstrate a desire and willingness to serve the Clan and potentially risk death in battle. They also have to endure a lifestyle equivilant to that of a military man or woman serving in a Great House Navy (but without much recognition). So they would really have to want to be there and be deemed trustworthy. I suspect that when potential troublemakers do arise, they are quickly reassigned.

So in a sense, yes, it could serve as an outlet for Freeborn wannabe warriors, but not the troublemaker kind, instead the "I live to serve the Clan" kind.

I think it was Beresick, who, during the Jihad and the drive to reach and liberate Terra, remarked that these "Clan Crews" were among the best he had ever seen.

[FedComGirl]

This depends. The Smoke Jaguars and Widowmakers both committed the same crime at the same time, and yet were treated very differently in return. Remember the Mongeese were Absorbed for using "the words of the Founder to justify their politics", which if it were a crime then every other clan would be guilty, too. The clans can be remarkably hypocritical, and remarkably hysterical and self-righteous about it. It's part of their appeal.

That's true. They can be hypocritical and very contradictory.

During Operation: KLONDIKE, in conventional infantry formations only the Point Leader was considered a warrior. The rest were "auxiliaries". IIRC vehicle crews also were mostly non-warriors. It let them bulk their number without abandoning the narrative that Kerensky's 800 warriors conquered the rest of the SLDF remnants.

Really?  :o I definitely missed that part
.

You could speculate that even most of the bridge crew would be non-warriors, such as chief engineer, comms officer, etc. I've always been curious about the career path of a Clan naval officer but it's always been very vague. Presumably because canon on the subject isn't totally settled either. Rather than start with the grey areas, perhaps we should start with what positions on a WarShip or DropShip are definitively warriors?

That would be nice to know. The same for vehicles too if they're not all warriors.

snip

Thing is technicians can come under fire. There's the obvious the line gets overrun and the base attacked. They could be reloading/rearming units in the field. They could be trying to get warriors out of a wrecked machine, or salvage something. And wouldn't some of their mechs need the benefits of a cooling truck? I'm pretty sure coolant trucks would be fair targets unlike in the Inner Sphere. But the techs can't pick up weapons and return fire. Unless they're a part of a vehicle crew? Which still seems odd but whatever. I guess it's one of those built in contradictions.

[sillybrit]

Thing is technicians can come under fire. There's the obvious the line gets overrun and the base attacked. They could be reloading/rearming units in the field. They could be trying to get warriors out of a wrecked machine, or salvage something. And wouldn't some of their mechs need the benefits of a cooling truck? I'm pretty sure coolant trucks would be fair targets unlike in the Inner Sphere. But the techs can't pick up weapons and return fire. Unless they're a part of a vehicle crew? Which still seems odd but whatever. I guess it's one of those built in contradictions.

Yes, but a Mech Technician being under fire would be an unusual circumstance, the sort of thing you really only see when Clans are going fangs out for each other, where one Clan or another is not going to be around afterwards, and not typically part of the normal lesser Trials to obtain renown, resources, rank, etc.

For DropShips and WarShips, every combat puts the entire crew onboard at risk, whether they be Warriors or not, or whether it be a Trial of Annihilation or a mere Trial of Possession.

[Jellico]

OK this is a very naive question, but do gunners actually aim and fire the weapons at all? I always assumed that the name was a holdover from a bygone era, and that they were actually technicians who maintained and operated the weapons but did not actually fire them, much like modern "teamsters" don't actually manage a team of draft animals. Meanwhile, targeting and firing is done from the bridge. After all, we don't have separate to-hit rolls for each individual weapon or bay, right?

I know this contradicts some of the fluff, but much of the fluff contradicts itself on this question anyway.

It is basically physically impossible for a gunner to aim a weapon in space combat. Too far, too fast.

[FedComGirl]

Yes, but a Mech Technician being under fire would be an unusual circumstance, the sort of thing you really only see when Clans are going fangs out for each other, where one Clan or another is not going to be around afterwards, and not typically part of the normal lesser Trials to obtain renown, resources, rank, etc.

For DropShips and WarShips, every combat puts the entire crew onboard at risk, whether they be Warriors or not, or whether it be a Trial of Annihilation or a mere Trial of Possession.

Yes but warships also waren't used when unless clans are going fangs for each other or they invade the inner sphere. And then they still were often the first to be bid away. Dropship see more combat but there's also safecon so the chances of their being in combat is a lot less than aerospace fighters. If you'll note they still used standard weapons. If dropships saw that much combat in clan space they would have been upgraded with clan tech. When they get to the inner sphere it's a different story but against other clans though not as much.

Edit:
Fixed my thought. I hope.

It is basically physically impossible for a gunner to aim a weapon in space combat. Too far, too fast.

I believe that's what targeting computers are for.

[sillybrit]

Yes but warships also aren't used when clans are going fangs for each other

Actually, when it comes to Annihilations and Reavings, then WarShips do get used. Other than that, there's been the very occasional lesser Trial.

or they invade the inner sphere. And then they still were often the first to be bid away. Dropship see more combat but there's also safecon so the chances of their being in combat is a lot less than aerospace fighters. If you'll note they still used standard weapons. If dropships saw that much combat in clan space they would have been upgraded with clan tech. When they get to the inner sphere it's a different story but against other clans though not as much.

Which is just another way of pointing out what I'd already said, that naval engagements are rare and thus it's not worth assigning more Warriors than necessary.

It still doesn't address the point that when a WarShip or DropShip fights, every crewmember on board is at risk, making them very different from Technicians who support other combat arms.

[Alan Grant]

On the side issue of what gunners actually do....A section of the Noruff's fluff (TRO: 3057r) provides a little insight into the physical role of gunners.

Although the Noruff’s
weapons systems are controlled via a sophisticated targeting
computer, the co-pilot and commander share responsibility for
target designation and weapons allocation.

[FedComGirl]

Actually, when it comes to Annihilations and Reavings, then WarShips do get used. Other than that, there's been the very occasional lesser Trial.

Hmm.  :-\ Some how what I typed didn't come out quite as I thought it.  :( Fixed it.  Yes, warships get used in really big trials and a few not so big ones but most of the time it's smaller units that see action.

Which is just another way of pointing out what I'd already said, that naval engagements are rare and thus it's not worth assigning more Warriors than necessary.

I didn't say that it meant putting weapons under the control of lesser castes though. Less chance of combat can mean lower quality of warrior.

It still doesn't address the point that when a WarShip or DropShip fights, every crewmember on board is at risk, making them very different from Technicians who support other combat arms.

That's when they fight. And are they technicians because they're lesser caste or by training? Even Mechwarriors get mech repair training. I suppose it's one of those hypocritical and contradictory clan things. Give a rifle to a tech and get reaved. Give control of a warships weapons to a tech get a medal.

On the side issue of what gunners actually do....A section of the Noruff's fluff (TRO: 3057r) provides a little insight into the physical role of gunners.

Although the Noruff’s
weapons systems are controlled via a sophisticated targeting
computer, the co-pilot and commander share responsibility for
target designation and weapons allocation.

Which means they push the fire button. Right?

[sillybrit]

That's when they fight. And are they technicians because they're lesser caste or by training? Even Mechwarriors get mech repair training. I suppose it's one of those hypocritical and contradictory clan things. Give a rifle to a tech and get reaved. Give control of a warships weapons to a tech get a medal.

The crew actually are Technician caste, with appropriate Laborer caste for the non-technical jobs, presumably cargo handlers, cooks, etc. Command staff on a combat vessel will be Warriors, with Merchants running non-combat ones, although even they can end up with a Warrior captain.

The Clans probably justify it on the basis that even for weapons under local control, the gunner is still more of a systems manager, with computers doing the actual aiming and firing at the designated target, all under the supervision of the Warrior or Warriors in command. For more centralized fire control, such as Alan Grant posted about the Noruff, they're there mostly for backup in the result of system failure or damage, and making sure that the weapons are actually functioning, with the commanding Warriors even more directly in control.

ASFs will encounter the same range issues in space, so Aerospace Pilots are also unable to see the target and instead rely upon computer systems to do the aiming and shooting. So, it's the command and control by a Warrior that's viewed as what's important.

Just to come back to the aiming and shooting part: as Jellico points out, in space you don't even see the enemy, instead they're just pixels on your sensor display. Given the ranges and speeds involved, just as it's not possibly for gunners and pilots to see the enemy, it's not going to be possible for them to pull the trigger in that split second when the guns line up. Instead, once the command is given to fire, the system will trigger the weapons once it detects that they're lined up, with either micro-adjustments of the course or some degree of flexible mounting being used to bring the armament to bear on target.

Of course, in an atmosphere, it can be very different, with actual visual sighting being possible, but those same systems are already in place. All that happens there, is that there's possibly an extra target cueing option related to visual tracking, plus less of a delay between the fire command being given and the actual shot being taken. Even more primitive direct aiming and firing may be available for the gunner in an atmosphere, giving a last resort backup in case of damage or system failure, but I doubt even the Clans are going to cry blasphemy over that given the likely dire straits involved.

[FedComGirl]

The crew actually are Technician caste, with appropriate Laborer caste for the non-technical jobs, presumably cargo handlers, cooks, etc. Command staff on a combat vessel will be Warriors, with Merchants running non-combat ones, although even they can end up with a Warrior captain.

like I said. One of those built in things.

The Clans probably justify it on the basis that even for weapons under local control, the gunner is still more of a systems manager, with computers doing the actual aiming and firing at the designated target, all under the supervision of the Warrior or Warriors in command. For more centralized fire control, such as Alan Grant posted about the Noruff, they're there mostly for backup in the result of system failure or damage, and making sure that the weapons are actually functioning, with the commanding Warriors even more directly in control.

If there's damage though then the technicians end up deciding when to fire at whom. But like I said above...

ASFs will encounter the same range issues in space, so Aerospace Pilots are also unable to see the target and instead rely upon computer systems to do the aiming and shooting. So, it's the command and control by a Warrior that's viewed as what's important.

Just to come back to the aiming and shooting part: as Jellico points out, in space you don't even see the enemy, instead they're just pixels on your sensor display. Given the ranges and speeds involved, just as it's not possibly for gunners and pilots to see the enemy, it's not going to be possible for them to pull the trigger in that split second when the guns line up. Instead, once the command is given to fire, the system will trigger the weapons once it detects that they're lined up, with either micro-adjustments of the course or some degree of flexible mounting being used to bring the armament to bear on target.

Of course, in an atmosphere, it can be very different, with actual visual sighting being possible, but those same systems are already in place. All that happens there, is that there's possibly an extra target cueing option related to visual tracking, plus less of a delay between the fire command being given and the actual shot being taken. Even more primitive direct aiming and firing may be available for the gunner in an atmosphere, giving a last resort backup in case of damage or system failure, but I doubt even the Clans are going to cry blasphemy over that given the likely dire straits involved.

I'm not so sure about not seeing the enemy. I haven't found the size of a hex but I know there are items on earth that you can see from space. If you can target them you can target ships in space. That'd just leave fighters being hard to target and they fly in groups which would make them easier to spot. Speed would be an issue but if it isn't a head on engagement it's less an issue than it is on the ground.

[jh316]

I believe a space hex is 10km.

[FedComGirl]

Thank you. :)