Chinese names in BT

[Hominid Mk II]

I'm no kind of expert on the Chinese language, but I have an idea there are are some inconsistencies in its use in BT. I'm pretty sure that I've seen passing references somewhere to the Capellans writing it in the Roman alphabet using the Hanyu Pinyin Romanization System. But Wikipedia tells me that if that's the case, Sian should be spelt Xi'an. And I don't think that's the only anomaly I've come across over the years, even though I can't remember any other specific examples offhand.

So what exactly is the deal here?

[Øystein]

Linguisitic drift over the last 1200 years.

[Kidd]

As an ethnic Chinese... don't overthink it, mate. Just don't ;D

[Iracundus]

The deal is the Chinese romanisations are FUBAR, and there is no across the board consistency.  Handwave it as linguistic drift or some new in-universe method of romanisation.

I'm not even going to start on how most of the Chinese personal names don't make sense, at least using current RL naming practices.  The only handwaving I can think of is that in the next thousand years there is a cultural shift about what is acceptable for a name. 

That and Zhanzheng de Guang translates as Light of War rather than War of Light (which would be Guang de Zhanzheng).

[Kidd]

@Iracundus - which is perfectly plausible given what we've seen in the past 2 decades alone...!

P.s. I don't even think it should have the "de" (的). Thats pure English transliteration IMHO. Guang Zhanzheng is right...

...but again; who cares ;D

[Iracundus]

@Iracundus - which is perfectly plausible given what we've seen in the past 2 decades alone...!

P.s. I don't even think it should have the "de" (的). Thats pure English transliteration IMHO. Guang Zhanzheng is right...

...but again; who cares ;D

The 的 can be optional.  Inclusion doesn't make it wrong, neither does omission.  Guang Zhanzheng for me though translates as Light War, which can still be the same meaning, though hair splitters might argue it is strictly speaking not quite the same.

For a real insane challenge, try doing what one novel character did and write out the Lorix Creed...in Classical Chinese.

[ajcbm]

If you knew anything about Chinese culture and have read Battletech lore these past 30 years, you'll know the writers have no idea what they are writing about.

[RotS fan]

Linguisitic drift over the last 1200 years.

Sorry, but linguistic drift is an overused excuse. This "linguistic change" happens only the authors try to write something that's not in their main language. Also, we rarely get "language drift" in English words (I would say we never had, but I'm probably forgetting some examples...) while we get them all the time when they use other languages. TtS Inglesmond is an example: *every* Portuguese term is written wrong!
Even worse is that the same errors occur in Shadowrun, a game that's set only a few decades in the future.


So PLEASE, stop using language drift as an excuse for writer's mistakes. When you write something wrong in other language sounds like you are white washing our languages to make it sound cooler to English speakers

[SteelRaven]

It's a fictional universe for a game. Might as well ask if the FMA actors should be speaking German or Japanese.             

[NeonKnight]

This is coming from me as a person, NOT as a Demo Agent or anything else related to BT.

I take the view of, as others have said Linguistic Drift.

Same reason why half of the town and city names in England are not the same names today, as they were even 300 years ago...and we are not talking English speakers butchering a foreign language, but English Speakers changing English words.

My other reason for just 'accepting it and moving on' is, well sometimes we English speakers make mistakes with foreign languages...just like foreign speakers make mistakes with English words.

My wedding photos from Korea will forever have my name spelled as 다니엘 토마스

Which translates to Daniel Thomas

And Not as 다니엘 톰슨

Which is Daniel Thomson (my real name)

Now this is real life here...not a game, or piece of escapism. Yes, I get annoyed even when my last name is spelled Thompson as opposed to Thomson (English versus Scottish spelling), but this was a case of an entirely different last name. And in this case is something I simply laugh over.

So, I'm not trying to belittle people who are native speakers of the other languages that sadly get butchered by us Non-native English speakers, just remember tho...it happens the other way too ;)

[Kidd]

Yes, I get annoyed even when my last name is spelled Thompson as opposed to Thomson (English versus Scottish spelling)

I'm sorry, I cannot resist :P



On topic: I personally am not bothered by it any more than I am bothered by Fasafiziks and Fasanomics - that is, I will discuss it from time to time, at the sad, sad, sad expense of a couple dozen catgirls (oh the humanity!) but nobody is breaking out the vibro-pitchforks. All things considered, the creators did well for an era pre-Google Translate ;)

[NeonKnight]

No worries, I'm usually pretty lax about it. Send me a check...don't care. Want to write up a contract or issue an official government record, yeah you better believe I'm gonna get huffy, because as soon as someone submits official records with my name spelled wrong, I KNOW how difficult it is to get it changed.

heck, even with my wife, her name is 이정민, or Lee Jung Min, or because of our western penchant for Family names last Jung Min Lee.

Issue is, again with our western penchant for a Given Name, Middle Name, Surname, most people would look at Jung Min Lee and then call her Jung, assuming Jung was her Given Name, and Min was her Middle. Unfortunately, that is not the case, her Given name is Jung Min. So to remove confusion we often write her name on Documents as Jung-Min, so as to remove all doubt as to her name.

Sadly, this has bit us in the buttocks as some Government Documents have her name a Jung Min and some as Jung-Min.

This means a LOT of issue for us to correct, and we've pretty much taken the 'Ah to heck with it' attitude.

[Kidd]

Issue is, again with our western penchant for a Given Name, Middle Name, Surname, most people would look at Jung Min Lee and then call her Jung, assuming Jung was her Given Name, and Min was her Middle. Unfortunately, that is not the case, her Given name is Jung Min. So to remove confusion we often write her name on Documents as Jung-Min, so as to remove all doubt as to her name.

Sadly, this has bit us in the buttocks as some Government Documents have her name a Jung Min and some as Jung-Min.

This means a LOT of issue for us to correct, and we've pretty much taken the 'Ah to heck with it' attitude.

Whoa, you got legit cred as one of the homies brah, cause that is indeed an issue for us ;D

The only way round it is to standardise; professionally at my workplace, it is SOP that all Oriental names are formatted Jung-Min Lee hyphenated, tough luck for those of us who adhere to the non-hyphenated generational middle name convention. The Australian Govt took the other route though, and one is required to write in the format Min Jung Lee in official govt docs. (Edit: I misremembered, it ain't the Aussies, and I can't frickin for the life of me recall which organisation formatted the names in this manner...) Okay fine, so I have to remember which format to use for which organisation, but at least there is internal consistency. Socially it is hardly an issue of course, since we all have English first names - I am Ian ;D

And to get to the point of all this - oriental naming conventions are being modified to come to a compromise with western conventions, so its little surprise really if language in the BT future will have evolved further along... at least, let''s keep telling ourselves that!  ;D

[worktroll]

oriental naming conventions are being modified to come to a compromise with western conventions

I think it's slightly different - Oriental naming conventions are being modified to cope with Microsoft naming conventions. Seriously. If you're not vanilla western naming conventions, the big M don't care. "Conform!"

Here I have all of Chinese, Malay, Sri Lankan, Korean, Taiwanese, and South American naming, none of which our global HR system can cope with. As they say in the classics, "hilarity ensues".  >:(

[Sartris]

There are also probably planet to planet drifts (or even continents on the same planet). The linguistic variation must be mindblowing. Core worlds, fringe worlds, worlds with significant populations that speak other languages. Worlds cut off for a hundred years. World's conquered and separated from the moderating influence of the former controlling state. World-specific slang that can only be shared by people living in the same place. Worlds where language is intentionally manipulated for sociopolitical reasons.

Tracking the variations would drive a linguist mad

[NeonKnight]

The Australian Govt took the other route though, and one is required to write in the format Min Jung Lee in official govt docs.

WOW! What is their reason for that? Because her name is Jung Min, just like your name is Ian, and Mine is Daniel.
 Would the Australian Government require my name be written in Documents as ielDan? Because that is what it would amount to. I am truly baffled by that reasoning.

[MadCapellan]

So what exactly is the deal here?

The game's materials are written in modern-day English & the names/titles are an approximation provided by lay-writers for an English-speaking readership. Just as one would presume a conversation between the Coordinator & the Commander of DEST is actually in Japanese, & not English as presented, one should assume the Chinese actually in use in the 31st Century is correct 31st Century Chinese, whatever that is/will be.

Or, as Kidd said:

... don't overthink it, mate. Just don't ;D

[Iracundus]

Romanizations and spellings do not irk me that much when the meaning is still clear.  My personal pet peeves are when the error changes the meaning in a substantial way (i.e. More than just a shade of nuance difference).

One example is the Maskirovka division "Chancellor's Will" in the latest Handbook House Liao which is given a romanization suggesting it is "Emperor's Will."  Now it may be a historical convention in the Confederation to translate Chancellor to Emperor (since the Chancellor is treated as Emperor in all but name).  However then in the color plate I think someone tripped over their dictionary translation because the characters in the artwork show "Emperor will". (as in "will do something").  I am not too annoyed by this since I can see how a straight dictionary translator might make that mistake since the different meanings of "will" each translate to different Chinese characters, and the person obviously chose the wrong one.

[Kidd]

WOW! What is their reason for that? Because her name is Jung Min, just like your name is Ian, and Mine is Daniel.
 Would the Australian Government require my name be written in Documents as ielDan? Because that is what it would amount to. I am truly baffled by that reasoning.

I went to look up the Aus guidelines to show you, but it turns out I misremembered; it is indeed formatted Jung Min Lee*. Can't remember which organisation I encountered which formatted oriental names thusly.

It makes a certain sense, in the case where Min is the last name and Jung the middle name, conforming somewhat to western names e.g. James Tiberius Kirk. In Chinese tradition at least, the middle name denotes one's generation and isn't a double-barreled first name. Thus siblings and cousins of the same generation would share the same middle name: a hypothetical sister of your wife might be named, say, Lee Jung Hyun... though I don't know if Korean culture also has this format, I'm just using an example. In fact I do share the same middle name with my brother and cousin... but again, with westernisation and evolving naming traditions, I foresee we will be the last of our families to have practised this.

*Interestingly however if one's name is e.g. Jane Lee Jung Min, the Aussie guidelines say to fill in Jane Jung Min as first name...

[Jellico]

Long since fought this fight. Remove the space in the given name for official documents and have the awareness of mind to read where the document says "surname". Data bases don't care how you are named.


Weird thought. Are over half of the people who have responded here Australia based?

[NeonKnight]

Long since fought this fight. Remove the space in the given name for official documents and have the awareness of mind to read where the document says "surname". Data bases don't care how you are named.


Weird thought. Are over half of the people who have responded here Australia based?

Vancouver Canada

[NeonKnight]

I went to look up the Aus guidelines to show you, but it turns out I misremembered; it is indeed formatted Jung Min Lee*. Can't remember which organisation I encountered which formatted oriental names thusly.

It makes a certain sense, in the case where Min is the last name and Jung the middle name, conforming somewhat to western names e.g. James Tiberius Kirk. In Chinese tradition at least, the middle name denotes one's generation and isn't a double-barreled first name. Thus siblings and cousins of the same generation would share the same middle name: a hypothetical sister of your wife might be named, say, Lee Jung Hyun... though I don't know if Korean culture also has this format, I'm just using an example. In fact I do share the same middle name with my brother and cousin... but again, with westernisation and evolving naming traditions, I foresee we will be the last of our families to have practised this.

*Interestingly however if one's name is e.g. Jane Lee Jung Min, the Aussie guidelines say to fill in Jane Jung Min as first name...

Don't think so. Her sister is Seung-Min (not sure of actual Spelling), and her brother is Won-Jun.

We have two sons, the Older son we named Seth Lee Thomson, with his middle name given to Honor her family. Our second son, we named Darnell Shin Thomson, with his middle name Shin being her mother's Family Name. Korean culture does not force the wife taking the man's family name.

Odd fact here, Darnell is in Europe (mostly celtic regions) being a Surname/Family name. It has taken up being used by the african community in North America as male first name, yet earlier this year we went bowling and the family at the lane next to us was caucasian and also had a son named Darnell. He was named that because the parents were BC Lions Footbal fans, and we just found it intersting that we had named our sons Darnell.

Second Fun Fact, we often tease our Son because an Episode of Law & Order Criminal Intent had a inner city youth wanted by the detectives for questioning with the name Darnell Thompson.

But back to the Korean Naming, I know from talking with wifey there is a lot of planning going into the naming, and at least until recently, names came and went in favour due to...*superstitious* reasons. You did not want to name your child after someone recently deceased as the soul/spirit may mistake that as being it's body and possibly possess the infant. Additionally fortune tellers would be sought out to perform readings and make a suggestion for the name as to what would be most prosperous name. And finally, while Jung-Min is her given name, it is not the name her family calls her. She goes by Jung-Min or Eon-ni (Like Aw-nee, or Sister if a girl), and Nu-na (Older Sister if a boy) to her friends, but has a completely different name that only her immediate family calls her, and I cannot for the life of me remember what it is.

And finally, back to my sons, yes they have Korean names for her family to call them, as the 'R's and TH sounds of english is very hard for korean speakers.

[Nav_Alpha]

Ok, I'm going to lob and increase the Australian factor....

Factors to consider are: things change over a thousand year span, and humans stuff things up.
Case in point is the 3078-9 batte for Terra. A crucial final battle in Sydney takes places in the inner city suburb of "Newton". In real life there's an inner Sydney spot called Newtown that fits Total Chaos' description of the area perfectly.
(How do I know? I live in Newtown and was pretty excited to have my area part of the fight!)

But place names change in a thousand odd years, as does language.

OR: more likely, people writing about a language/place they don't know intimately or firsthand make small errors only people who have that sort of knowledge pick up.

Continuing what you've been saying about misspelled names on forms. I ran into a major issue when we paid off our house (yes, in Newtown that's soon to host Stone's Coalition) - the lawyer had crossed off my correctly spelt name on the original deeds and re-written it. Incorrectly.
When my wife and I tried to pick up the deeds they refu to hand them over because my name didn't match. I had to get a whole stat dec, decarling that yes this was my legal name and that the lawyer had made the mistake, etc.

[Iracundus]

Oh, I work near Newtown.  Small world.

I could see it becoming Newton in a thousand years from Hodor effect.

[Nav_Alpha]

Oh, I work near Newtown.  Small world.

I could see it becoming Newton in a thousand years from Hodor effect.

Ha! I love the concept of a "Hodor effect"

[Dubble_g]

Interesting thread. We had a similar discussion in the Novel Reviews forum regarding the use of Japanese in BattleTech. I suspect it's the same root problem--writers whose enthusiasm outstrips their subject knowledge. So you get people with gibberish Japanese names or ones that are literally impossible to spell in Japanese (consonant-vowel combinations that don't exist in Japanese) or nonsense lettering in the artwork (uniforms that say "Kurisu" instead of "Kurita" etc.).

I find the "linguistic drift" handwavium only works for those who don't need it anyway--if it's convincing to you, then you probably didn't realize anything was wrong to begin with. Because you have to squint pretty hard, like eyes-closed hard, for it to make sense when you line it up with all the other linguistic evidence (e.g. phonetic speech in the text shows the Scots brogue has survived for a millennium completely unchanged).

I mention all this as prelude to an alternative head-canon: the errors in the material actually are in-universe errors. Japanese (and Chinese in the CC?) is being imposed by a linguistic minority on a massive territory, and the resulting poor standard of education means people whose mother tongue is actually English are trying to come up with design, place and personal names in a language they barely speak in order to satisfy the ruling class.

[FredrikR]

I suspect it's the same root problem--writers whose enthusiasm outstrips their subject knowledge. ...  I find the "linguistic drift" handwavium only works for those who don't need it anyway--if it's convincing to you, then you probably didn't realize anything was wrong to begin with.

So true, it certainly sounds that way for quite a lot of the FRRs supposedly Swedish and/or Scandinavian names/titles/etc.
Some cringeworthy stuff like "Valdherren" and such. :o
Whats that other thing...checking Sarna...oh yeah "Motsatt Stalining Parti"....    #P

[glitterboy2098]

I mention all this as prelude to an alternative head-canon: the errors in the material actually are in-universe errors. Japanese (and Chinese in the CC?) is being imposed by a linguistic minority on a massive territory, and the resulting poor standard of education means people whose mother tongue is actually English are trying to come up with design, place and personal names in a language they barely speak in order to satisfy the ruling class.

in the case of the Capcon, it would be Chinese being imposed on largely Russian speakers.. which would certainly result in a linguistic mess.

IIRC the main ethnicities on most Combine worlds were Japanese, Middle Eastern, and Indian (with parts of Hindism being rolled into the state religion)

[Dulahan]

Yeah, linguistic drift.  The Romanization seems to take more from Wade-Giles than from Pinyin took, though not quite perfect there either.  Keep in mind when all these dames started being used Wade-Giles was the more commonly used transliteration in the West too.

Then we starts to get cases where in the same book we get ones looking more Pinyin than Wade Giles.  Now throw in some of the other random methods too... and people just trying to make Chinese sounding names.  Or how about a horrid mish mash of Cantonese and Mandarin and  Hakka and Wu...  Hell, I just know some Mandarin, no clue how Xi'an is said in Cantonese, let alone some of the other dialects!

So I just role with it.

[massey]

Now you guys know how lawyers feel when they see courtroom drama TV shows.