Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk

[Alan Grant]

Why do you think powerful fleet is the winning formula for a Mick-Kreese breakout to success?

The only reason that works for the Ravens, is because they are able to sustain themselves with a lot of naval infrastructure that the other Clans need. They became the one-stop-shop for all things naval. For example they maintained and built the Carrier-class dropships for all the Clans. Also they still maintained a decent array of ground forces, it just gets overshadowed by their fleet.

The Cloud Cobras went the aero/fleet route, and they are ok, but they aren't very powerful. They have among the smallest toumans of all the Clans. They held what they had by choosing their battles (and enemies and allies) very carefully so they were never the focus of attention too much. I can't see a Kindraa successfully emulating this strategy while simultaneously trying to become more powerful. Because it attracts just the wrong kind of attention, especially from the other Kindraa who are going to be upset about the shift in the balance of power.

IMO, ultra-powerful fleet isn't how Mick-Kreese cracks the top 3 Kindraa. They need infrastructure (factories, raw materials etc), and that's probably, mostly, going to be ground-based. Which means you need enclaves, which means you need ground forces to take and defend.

It's worth noting that FM: Updates speaks very highly of Mick-Kreese-Kline. Politically, militarily, the feel is that this Kindraa is somewhat ascendant. Why? Because they added more ground forces. And because of their alliance with the Blood Spirits. Though that last deal doesn't ultimately pan out so well in the long view of things. They needed a more powerful and well-connected ally. The Blood Spirits were too resource-poor and too politically marginalized. But that issue aside, it was generally the right idea for making Mick-Kreese more powerful.

So I just don't see "big fleet Mick-Kreese" as the answer. Adding another warship or three while their ground forces look the same, doesn't create the advantages that are needed. Adding another 3-4 Clusters of ground forces, allowing the Kindraa to really expand the territory it controls is, to me, the more correct path.

If you were absolutely determined to go "big fleet Mick-Kreese" then I think you'd need to play the game like the Ravens did. Control one of the shipyards. Or build one. Start churning out dropships or jumpships to trade with other Clans. Offer up repair services as well. Be that kind of naval power. Yes, you now have the means to maintain a bigger fleet, but you also have something that you can market to the other Clans.

But I'm not at all convinced the other Clans, or the other Kindraa, would allow Mick-Kreese to play that game. The threat of another Clan trying to take that shipyard way via a Trial of Possession would be very high. Mick-Kreese's 2 warships and a fair number of ASFs doesn't represent much of a deterrent against the full naval might of even an average Clan fleet.

I think another Clan, like the Star Adders for example, who have a large fleet but canon regards as needing more naval infrastructure, particularly after the Burrock absorption, would LOVE to swoop in and grab that Mick-Kreese shipyard to add to their own naval capacity. That would be a tempting target to somebody.

[Sjhernan3060]

Why do you think powerful fleet is the winning formula for a Mick-Kreese breakout to success?

The only reason that works for the Ravens, is because they are able to sustain themselves with a lot of naval infrastructure that the other Clans need. They became the one-stop-shop for all things naval. For example they maintained and built the Carrier-class dropships for all the Clans. Also they still maintained a decent array of ground forces, it just gets overshadowed by their fleet.

The Cloud Cobras went the aero/fleet route, and they are ok, but they aren't very powerful. They have among the smallest toumans of all the Clans. They held what they had by choosing their battles (and enemies and allies) very carefully so they were never the focus of attention too much. I can't see a Kindraa successfully emulating this strategy while simultaneously trying to become more powerful. Because it attracts just the wrong kind of attention, especially from the other Kindraa who are going to be upset about the shift in the balance of power.

IMO, ultra-powerful fleet isn't how Mick-Kreese cracks the top 3 Kindraa. They need infrastructure (factories, raw materials etc), and that's probably, mostly, going to be ground-based. Which means you need enclaves, which means you need ground forces to take and defend.

It's worth noting that FM: Updates speaks very highly of Mick-Kreese-Kline. Politically, militarily, the feel is that this Kindraa is somewhat ascendant. Why? Because they added more ground forces. And because of their alliance with the Blood Spirits. Though that last deal doesn't ultimately pan out so well in the long view of things. They needed a more powerful and well-connected ally. The Blood Spirits were too resource-poor and too politically marginalized. But that issue aside, it was generally the right idea for making Mick-Kreese more powerful.

So I just don't see "big fleet Mick-Kreese" as the answer. Adding another warship or three while their ground forces look the same, doesn't create the advantages that are needed. Adding another 3-4 Clusters of ground forces, allowing the Kindraa to really expand the territory it controls is, to me, the more correct path.

If you were absolutely determined to go "big fleet Mick-Kreese" then I think you'd need to play the game like the Ravens did. Control one of the shipyards. Or build one. Start churning out dropships or jumpships to trade with other Clans. Offer up repair services as well. Be that kind of naval power. Yes, you now have the means to maintain a bigger fleet, but you also have something that you can market to the other Clans.

But I'm not at all convinced the other Clans, or the other Kindraa, would allow Mick-Kreese to play that game. The threat of another Clan trying to take that shipyard way via a Trial of Possession would be very high. Mick-Kreese's 2 warships and a fair number of ASFs doesn't represent much of a deterrent against the full naval might of even an average Clan fleet.

I think another Clan, like the Star Adders for example, who have a large fleet but canon regards as needing more naval infrastructure, particularly after the Burrock absorption, would LOVE to swoop in and grab that Mick-Kreese shipyard to add to their own naval capacity. That would be a tempting target to somebody.

Excellent points as always! Especially within in the mandrills where hungry eyes are very much a thing a “very ambitious”  kindraa would have to play the medium and long game ( something very unmandrill) to your point a sudden appearance of more than even one warship I think would paint a very big target on the mick kreeses.

Instead I think the resonble approach would be similar to what happened in canon:

1) snap up all jag enclaves and assets on Atreus
1A) treat the former jag civilians 5% and see a 500% increase in production in factory production joking somewhat but you get me
1b) work closer with the spirits and cobras to adopt the protomech phenotype earlier. Especially with their strong aero bloodlines the mandrills seem like a logical early proto adopter and it addresses their need to quickly expand their ground forces

[Alan Grant]

That makes more sense to me.

In terms of ground forces, that could mean protomechs but it could mean other things. Mick-Kreese leans heavily into elementals. Maybe they continue to lean heavily into BA and deploy a lot more of them. Think elemental-heavy clusters. But in some combined-arms clusters that does have a 'mech trinary and maybe even a vehicle trinary. For additional firepower and mobility such as mechanized BA tactics.

I'd look to the Diamond Sharks of FM: WC for inspiration. That's another Clan that relied heavily on aerospace in some Clusters, but also had a lot of elemental exclusive bloodnames and so you see a few Elemental-heavy Clusters here and there. The 7th Cruiser Cluster, the 21st Strike Cluster, 8th Cruiser Cluster. Being good examples. That would lean into the influence that the Micks and Goulets have over the Kindraa.

To add an aero component to that. We've seen tactics where the Clans deploy lots of elementals from hovering dropships. The Jade Falcons conducted a big elemental drop like this on top of a Lyran command post on Melissia during the FedCom Civil War.

Imagine a Mick-Kreese offensive action that combined some of that, a large-scale elemental combat drop, with a simultaneous forward march of other ground forces intended to push in and link up with the dropped elementals, combined yet again with aerospace fighters providing air-to-ground support, particularly against 'mechs.

I think that's how you make BA+ASFs (as the predominant arms of your military, with 'mechs/vees only appearing in smaller numbers and specialized roles like BA carrier and direct/indirect fire support) look like a winning formula that nets a few enclaves. Then yes (if era appropriate), eventually you'd be looking to add some number of Protos to that as well.

That probably sounds like the warships don't do much. But if you can secure air/space superiority, you can use those warships to bring your forces in, as well as droppers loaded with their supporting units and supplies, and sit in space over the target enclave and just keep deploying combat units space-to-ground to sustain a longer assault in more than one wave (and more than one wave of supporting units and supplies). So the warships represent transport/escort/carrier as well as command and control. Eventually someone is going to challenge that space superiority with warships of their own in an attempt to disrupt Mick-Kreese's assault, and that's where a naval battle probably happens.

After let's say 5-20 years of this kind of thing being repeated a few times and generally going well (maybe even so well that Mick-Kreese absorbed another Kindraa along the way), with a lot more enclaves under your control, and a lot more ground forces, you can start to think about expanding the navy. By that point the Kindraa might be in a good enough position to just pay (or conduct a trade for) the Ravens to refit a cached warship or two for active service for them.

At that point, regardless of that last part of expanding the fleet, they'd be a contender for being among the Top 3 Kindraa.

A lot of things would have to go right though. Getting dragged into a sizable air war with Beyl-Grant that costs you a lot of your air power would be one way for this to go horribly wrong. You'd have to cease operations to rebuild. You'd be depending a lot on that air power to offset your lack of 'mechs and losing that, and losing air superiority would be devastating. The other big danger is the other Kindraa gang up against Mick-Kreese, forcing them to go defensive and reactionary everywhere (having lost the initiative), likely suffering heavy losses in the process. So having a plan to disrupt the other Kindraa, or pit them against each other so they are distracted and can't focus on Mick-Kreese. That would probably be a crucial part of the plan that Mick-Kreese would need a solution for from the beginning.

But what I've written above, if handled the right way at some point in Fire Mandrill history, to me is the most sensible way that Mick-Kreese would have, theoretically, ascended to being one of the top Kindraa.

[Sjhernan3060]

That makes more sense to me.

In terms of ground forces, that could mean protomechs but it could mean other things. Mick-Kreese leans heavily into elementals. Maybe they continue to lean heavily into BA and deploy a lot more of them. Think elemental-heavy clusters. But in some combined-arms clusters that does have a 'mech trinary and maybe even a vehicle trinary. For additional firepower and mobility such as mechanized BA tactics.

I'd look to the Diamond Sharks of FM: WC for inspiration. That's another Clan that relied heavily on aerospace in some Clusters, but also had a lot of elemental exclusive bloodnames and so you see a few Elemental-heavy Clusters here and there. The 7th Cruiser Cluster, the 21st Strike Cluster, 8th Cruiser Cluster. Being good examples. That would lean into the influence that the Micks and Goulets have over the Kindraa.

To add an aero component to that. We've seen tactics where the Clans deploy lots of elementals from hovering dropships. The Jade Falcons conducted a big elemental drop like this on top of a Lyran command post on Melissia during the FedCom Civil War.

Imagine a Mick-Kreese offensive action that combined some of that, a large-scale elemental combat drop, with a simultaneous forward march of other ground forces intended to push in and link up with the dropped elementals, combined yet again with aerospace fighters providing air-to-ground support, particularly against 'mechs.

I think that's how you make BA+ASFs (as the predominant arms of your military, with 'mechs/vees only appearing in smaller numbers and specialized roles like BA carrier and direct/indirect fire support) look like a winning formula that nets a few enclaves. Then yes (if era appropriate), eventually you'd be looking to add some number of Protos to that as well.

That probably sounds like the warships don't do much. But if you can secure air/space superiority, you can use those warships to bring your forces in, as well as droppers loaded with their supporting units and supplies, and sit in space over the target enclave and just keep deploying combat units space-to-ground to sustain a longer assault in more than one wave (and more than one wave of supporting units and supplies). So the warships represent transport/escort/carrier as well as command and control. Eventually someone is going to challenge that space superiority with warships of their own in an attempt to disrupt Mick-Kreese's assault, and that's where a naval battle probably happens.

After let's say 5-20 years of this kind of thing being repeated a few times and generally going well (maybe even so well that Mick-Kreese absorbed another Kindraa along the way), with a lot more enclaves under your control, and a lot more ground forces, you can start to think about expanding the navy. By that point the Kindraa might be in a good enough position to just pay (or conduct a trade for) the Ravens to refit a cached warship or two for active service for them.

At that point, regardless of that last part of expanding the fleet, they'd be a contender for being among the Top 3 Kindraa.

A lot of things would have to go right though. Getting dragged into a sizable air war with Beyl-Grant that costs you a lot of your air power would be one way for this to go horribly wrong. You'd have to cease operations to rebuild. You'd be depending a lot on that air power to offset your lack of 'mechs and losing that, and losing air superiority would be devastating. The other big danger is the other Kindraa gang up against Mick-Kreese, forcing them to go defensive and reactionary everywhere (having lost the initiative), likely suffering heavy losses in the process. So having a plan to disrupt the other Kindraa, or pit them against each other so they are distracted and can't focus on Mick-Kreese. That would probably be a crucial part of the plan that Mick-Kreese would need a solution for from the beginning.

But what I've written above, if handled the right way at some point in Fire Mandrill history, to me is the most sensible way that Mick-Kreese would have, theoretically, ascended to being one of the top Kindraa.

Following up on this something I am curious about but as far as I know is never addressed in the lore is the issue of open spots in the kindraa and the # of reserves the clan has. To clarify I am talking about just the warriors and not there machines. So let’s take a Mech binary (20 warriors) and day 5 warriors are KIA Does the kindraa already have 5 warriors on deck ready to fill those slots? I would think the mandrills would have to manage staffing very carefully

[Alan Grant]

You are correct in that it isn't really covered by the lore. This topic just isn't covered well or consistently by canon sources. It would make a lot of sense to me if Clan units had a few warriors in a replacement pool ready to step up. That's generally how many real world militaries work. For example, air force units will often have more pilots and even more airframes than their official strength would suggest, just so if a pilot is sick or if a machine is broken, the unit can still put the number of birds in the air that their flight assignments require of them.

This practical reality is seldom reflected or discussed in Battletech. On either side, Clan or Inner Sphere forces. Units always seem to be held at full strength (exactly) as much as possible. With the frequent mentions of depleted strength for units that saw combat recently and then references to that unit rebuilding its strength.

Make of that what you will, because the books don't help.

[Sjhernan3060]

You are correct in that it isn't really covered by the lore. This topic just isn't covered well or consistently by canon sources. It would make a lot of sense to me if Clan units had a few warriors in a replacement pool ready to step up. That's generally how many real world militaries work. For example, air force units will often have more pilots and even more airframes than their official strength would suggest, just so if a pilot is sick or if a machine is broken, the unit can still put the number of birds in the air that their flight assignments require of them.

This practical reality is seldom reflected or discussed in Battletech. On either side, Clan or Inner Sphere forces. Units always seem to be held at full strength (exactly) as much as possible. With the frequent mentions of depleted strength for units that saw combat recently and then references to that unit rebuilding its strength.

Make of that what you will, because the books don't help.

Hmmm the best lore fit for this issue  I can think of is this: 25% or even 50% of the spots would be “ prefilled” in that whatever reserve pool the kindraa had that those folks would be ear marked for instant activation and then the warriors in the rung below them would be fight in trials to get called up? But…. Even has I wrote that it seemed a tangled mess!!! But with the mandrills maybe that’s the point?

[Alan Grant]

I don't think it's anything quite like that or that deep. In fact, I'm not at all convinced there's any reserve pool at all.

Four primary sources of replenishment I can think of, none immediately same-day available. So if a warrior is sick or wounded or dead, that unit is just down a warrior in the short term.

1. FM: WC/CC tell us on page 18/17 respectively that primary training centers graduate new warriors every 3-6 months. So that's one source of replacements.

2. Existing warriors in other units/assignments. So a slot opens up in a front-line unit. That's a desirable assignment. Some warrior in a second-line unit gets to move up. We have numerous references that this kind of thing happens. A lot of it happened after big losses, like the Battle of Tukayyid for the Invading Clans as they rebuilt their toumans and the aftermath of the Refusal War for the Falcons and Wolves. It works in reverse too, with warriors no longer deemed to be of front-line quality slipping to a second-line unit.

3. An odd mention, warriors detached from line units that work their way back into the touman. The biggest category of which is participants in a Trial of Bloodright. Warriors participating in a Trial of Bloodright effectively get pulled away from their units. Sometimes they even have to travel great distances. The Trial of Bloodright itself can last a while, days, weeks. The rounds themselves aside, the entire affair is very traditional and ceremonial in nature, with ceremonies at the beginning and end. So at any given time, you have a slice of warriors detached, doing this kind of thing. Once they return (which might represent a kind of rolling, fairly predictable loss-to-gain of warriors) such warriors would be available to be plugged back into the touman wherever there is greatest need. There are certainly other forms of these detached warriors, like the tradition of a warrior escorting a fallen warrior's giftake to the genetic repository, or warriors detached to liasion with the lower castes. However in sheer numbers, I think Trials of Bloodright would represent a large rolling pool of people exiting and returning to line duty at any given time.

4. Bondsmen. Yup. I can definitely see some bondsmen getting their timetable for a return to warrior status bumped up if the Clan/Kindraa feels like it needs bodies and the bondsmen were already about 75%-95% there in terms of having earned it already.

Outside of those categories. I honestly suspect that until one of those helps fill the gap, the unit is just understrength. The Mandrills in particular have just never struck me as a Clan that had a deep reserve of anything. They've always been portrayed as being on the razor's edge of existence. With the daily struggle for survival that is much more obvious compared to some of the other Clans with deeper pockets of resources to draw upon.

Given this portrayal of the Mandrills, I could even see them having even less of a reserve capacity (whatever that might be) than most other Clans and whatever they are doing. After all, when we see a Kindraa take heavy losses in a single large scale battle/campaign/Trial the topic of their absorption or merger seems to come up pretty quickly. Like everyone just already knows they just don't have the reserve capacity of warriors or machines to rebuild back up to strength anytime soon. It never feels like the Kindraa has a lot of "extra" anything (warriors, machines etc.) to draw upon.

If there's an upside for the Mandrills it might just be the fact that they are so compact in terms of territory. A typical Kindraa isn't spread out across too many worlds. That could mean in turn that it doesn't take very long to plug in a replacement warrior. If any of the above sources (1-4) happen to be nearby (or the same planet even), the incoming replacements could be close by to start with.

All of this is largely speculative, but it's my best guess that I think jives with the canon facts we do have.


EDIT: I wanted to add, I think this line is very telling, from the Mick-Kreese page of FM: CC

The Kindraa Mick-Kreese has been pushing at Kindraa Beyi-Grant for years, probing for a soft spot that would allow the Mick-Kreese to steal a portion of their rival's strength. So far, however, this Kindraa has been unwilling to engage in all-out naval warfare, which would likely result in one of the two feuding Kindraa being Absorbed.

So the consensus is if these Kindraa engage in an all-out large scale fight, someone is getting absorbed, probably whoever emerges as the weaker one. They make it sound like it's all but a certainty. That to me adds to the idea that the Mandrill Kindraa just don't have any reserve capacity of machines or warriors. If a Kindraa takes heavy losses on a large scale, it's done, it's game over, unless they can absorb another Kindraa and recoup some of their strength that way very quickly and stand themselves back up again with their absorbed warriors and machines.

Compare that to other Clans that have taken heavy losses before, but then were able to rebuild if they could keep the predators at bay.

Another comparison that comes to mind is hard-luck mercenary units. Scraping by, scrounging equipment, living paycheck-to-paycheck, and if they take heavy losses one day and it isn't immediately followed by a massive inflow of money/salvage or other resources, it might just be game over for the unit. They might just have to fold. The Kindraa themselves would truly hate that comparison obviously given the Clan attitude toward mercenaries, but that's what it reminds me of.

[Sjhernan3060]

I don't think it's anything quite like that or that deep. In fact, I'm not at all convinced there's any reserve pool at all.

Four primary sources of replenishment I can think of, none immediately same-day available. So if a warrior is sick or wounded or dead, that unit is just down a warrior in the short term.

1. FM: WC/CC tell us on page 18/17 respectively that primary training centers graduate new warriors every 3-6 months. So that's one source of replacements.

2. Existing warriors in other units/assignments. So a slot opens up in a front-line unit. That's a desirable assignment. Some warrior in a second-line unit gets to move up. We have numerous references that this kind of thing happens. A lot of it happened after big losses, like the Battle of Tukayyid for the Invading Clans as they rebuilt their toumans and the aftermath of the Refusal War for the Falcons and Wolves. It works in reverse too, with warriors no longer deemed to be of front-line quality slipping to a second-line unit.

3. An odd mention, warriors detached from line units that work their way back into the touman. The biggest category of which is participants in a Trial of Bloodright. Warriors participating in a Trial of Bloodright effectively get pulled away from their units. Sometimes they even have to travel great distances. The Trial of Bloodright itself can last a while, days, weeks. The rounds themselves aside, the entire affair is very traditional and ceremonial in nature, with ceremonies at the beginning and end. So at any given time, you have a slice of warriors detached, doing this kind of thing. Once they return (which might represent a kind of rolling, fairly predictable loss-to-gain of warriors) such warriors would be available to be plugged back into the touman wherever there is greatest need. There are certainly other forms of these detached warriors, like the tradition of a warrior escorting a fallen warrior's giftake to the genetic repository, or warriors detached to liasion with the lower castes. However in sheer numbers, I think Trials of Bloodright would represent a large rolling pool of people exiting and returning to line duty at any given time.

4. Bondsmen. Yup. I can definitely see some bondsmen getting their timetable for a return to warrior status bumped up if the Clan/Kindraa feels like it needs bodies and the bondsmen were already about 75%-95% there in terms of having earned it already.

Outside of those categories. I honestly suspect that until one of those helps fill the gap, the unit is just understrength. The Mandrills in particular have just never struck me as a Clan that had a deep reserve of anything. They've always been portrayed as being on the razor's edge of existence. With the daily struggle for survival that is much more obvious compared to some of the other Clans with deeper pockets of resources to draw upon.

Given this portrayal of the Mandrills, I could even see them having even less of a reserve capacity (whatever that might be) than most other Clans and whatever they are doing. After all, when we see a Kindraa take heavy losses in a single large scale battle/campaign/Trial the topic of their absorption or merger seems to come up pretty quickly. Like everyone just already knows they just don't have the reserve capacity of warriors or machines to rebuild back up to strength anytime soon. It never feels like the Kindraa has a lot of "extra" anything (warriors, machines etc.) to draw upon.

If there's an upside for the Mandrills it might just be the fact that they are so compact in terms of territory. A typical Kindraa isn't spread out across too many worlds. That could mean in turn that it doesn't take very long to plug in a replacement warrior. If any of the above sources (1-4) happen to be nearby (or the same planet even), the incoming replacements could be close by to start with.

All of this is largely speculative, but it's my best guess that I think jives with the canon facts we do have.


EDIT: I wanted to add, I think this line is very telling, from the Mick-Kreese page of FM: CC

The Kindraa Mick-Kreese has been pushing at Kindraa Beyi-Grant for years, probing for a soft spot that would allow the Mick-Kreese to steal a portion of their rival's strength. So far, however, this Kindraa has been unwilling to engage in all-out naval warfare, which would likely result in one of the two feuding Kindraa being Absorbed.

So the consensus is if these Kindraa engage in an all-out large scale fight, someone is getting absorbed, probably whoever emerges as the weaker one. They make it sound like it's all but a certainty. That to me adds to the idea that the Mandrill Kindraa just don't have any reserve capacity of machines or warriors. If a Kindraa takes heavy losses on a large scale, it's done, it's game over, unless they can absorb another Kindraa and recoup some of their strength that way very quickly and stand themselves back up again with their absorbed warriors and machines.

Compare that to other Clans that have taken heavy losses before, but then were able to rebuild if they could keep the predators at bay.

Another comparison that comes to mind is hard-luck mercenary units. Scraping by, scrounging equipment, living paycheck-to-paycheck, and if they take heavy losses one day and it isn't immediately followed by a massive inflow of money/salvage or other resources, it might just be game over for the unit. They might just have to fold. The Kindraa themselves would truly hate that comparison obviously given the Clan attitude toward mercenaries, but that's what it reminds me of.

That makes a lot of sense and also makes the mandrills habit of attacking bigger foes and then themselves even more frustrating