The Refusal War

[Warship]

Remember that the whole point of the Refusal War was a shame trial by the Crusaders because they were pissy about having lost at Tukayyid.  Their charge of "genocide" was nothing more than a pretense.

Spot on.   :thumbsup:  I always thought the Crusader faction was more concerned with their appearance of being 'Big Damn Heroes' than being rational or even building up their own Clan.

[Talen5000]

I’m sure you have the events right from the canon.  But it makes no sense that the saKhan of one Clan has the authority to abjure a different Clan (or some fraction thereof).  Only the ilKhan (in an emergency) or the Grand Council should have the authority to abjure an entire Clan or intervene in another Clan’s affairs.  Sloppy plotting.

Not really. Whether or not a saKhan has the authority is a matter for the kaKhan and saKhan to decide.

But - Natasha Kerenksy bid the entire Clan, so when the Falcons were able to proclaim victory following Ulrics death, they were able to claim the entire Clan as isorla. A de facto Absorption.

This included Phelan Kells forces.

As part of Clan Jade Falcon, the Jade Falcons were legally able to Abjure that portion of their Clan. That Phelans forces kept calling themselves Wolves is irrelevant.

Regardless, it still makes no sense for Falcons to respect zellbrigen and engage in formal trials with Phelan’s Wolves during and after Morges.  Phelan’s Wolves had joined with the Spheroids, and the Falcons had just suffered a debilitating war against the Wolves for the express purpose of guaranteeing their right to prosecute a war against those same Spheroids.

Actually, it does make sense. It was the Falcons trying to demonstrated that they were better and more moral than the Wolves.  What doesn't make sense is the Wolves acceptance that six to one odds is how "true" warriors do battle. Phelan should have had quite a few Trial of Grievance following that little declaration of his.

[Colt Ward]

What six to one odds?

Ulric's death ending the Trial of Refusal is still sketchy b/c with the whole Clan bid, IF they did not go in Exile, then as long as they continued to fight its still a contest though the outcome would be meaningless outside of killing more Crusaders.

[rebs]

The entire business of how the Refusal War ended was sketchy all around.  It's been argued and discussed to death for 25 years and a discussion like this can still end with multiple opinions.

[Talen5000]

What six to one odds?

Overstated a bit, but Phelan used combined fire as a reason to honour the Kell Hounds.

Ulric's death ending the Trial of Refusal is still sketchy b/c with the whole Clan bid, IF they did not go in Exile, then as long as they continued to fight its still a contest though the outcome would be meaningless outside of killing more Crusaders.

Ulric died therefore guilty. Therefore Trial was lost as it has been noted - Phelan leaving the Trial area was him surrendering and giving up. His presence of lack thereof, or his desire to fight and or lack thereof did not alter the result...the Wolves had lost the Trial and the entire Clan was now subject to share Ulrics sentence.   There was no more contest - Ulric died and the Falcons claimed what was left of the Wolf force that was bid as isorla. The Wolf force that was bid was "everything". If you want a new interpretation...the Falcons claimed the military, and used the military garrisons in the enclaves as a basis to declare control and ownership over Wolf enclaves, for which there were no Wolf defenders to protest or engage in Trials. As the Falcons had claimed the Wolf Clans assets, they were free to Abjure whatever members they wanted.  The Abjuration was legal as no Wolf warrior appears to have initiated a Trial of Refusal until Vlad showed up.

[Colt Ward]

Ulric died therefore guilty.

The Ghost Bear khans (aka in charge of bid) defending the Grand Council's decision to invade the Inner Sphere died in that Trial of Refusal against Ulric and a single Wolf cluster.  The remaining Ghost Bear forces, who had not been part of the bidding process or in control of the bid, pressed on to eek out a win.  So . . . when one party involved in the declaration of the Trial dies, it does not end the Trial at that point- their bid still fights on.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Ulric was judged guilty due to losing the trial.  If he'd lived through that fight, the only likely difference would have been his getting shot in order to try covering up Vandervan's dirty behavior.

[Colt Ward]

No, the assertion is that he is deemed guilty b/c he died and the claim is that with his death the Trial ended.

[Bren]

The Ghost Bear khans (aka in charge of bid) defending the Grand Council's decision to invade the Inner Sphere died in that Trial of Refusal against Ulric and a single Wolf cluster.  The remaining Ghost Bear forces, who had not been part of the bidding process or in control of the bid, pressed on to eek out a win.  So . . . when one party involved in the declaration of the Trial dies, it does not end the Trial at that point- their bid still fights on.

That might have been the early version of events but in Operational Turning Points: Revival Placement Trials it was forces from Ghost Bear, Burrock, Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguar that defended the vote.

Even still, I think in principle a particular Clan defends a Grand Council vote, not an individual. So killing the highest-ranking member(s) of the forces defending a Council decision won't win you a Trial.

[Talen5000]

The Ghost Bear khans (aka in charge of bid) defending the Grand Council's decision to invade the Inner Sphere died in that Trial of Refusal against Ulric and a single Wolf cluster.  The remaining Ghost Bear forces, who had not been part of the bidding process or in control of the bid, pressed on to eek out a win.  So . . . when one party involved in the declaration of the Trial dies, it does not end the Trial at that point- their bid still fights on.

First...that situation wrt the Bears is not really the same as they were not the focus of the Trial. Ulric was and he was defeated.

Second...the Wolves were defeated on Wotan anyway.

Third...the remaining Wolf force under Phelan had left the Trial area and so had been defeated via Ring Out.

Meaning....all Wolf forces involved had been defeated, and the Falcons could claim them as isorla. No Trial against this was fought until Vlad was recovered and the Falcons claim stood u til then