Zellbrigen and Omnimechs

[JadeHellbringer]

So the Jade Falcons just showed up in orbit, yet again. Those curs! With their silly speech patterns and winged Mechs and such! And they're demanding to know what forces you're defending with! And so you tell them, giving them a TO&E of your forces-

-wait. Except that might be technically accurate, but how accurate does it need to be for zell purposes?

Let's say our defending force contains a lance of Omnimechs, and within that lance is a Hauptmann (because that's what I'm settling on as an example- use whatever Omni you want). When I declare to the Falcons that my force includes Ol' Smoky in the assault lance, do I tell them what it's configured with? Or just that I have one? Essentially, is it considered dirty pool to conceal (or simply not have decided on) what configuration an Omnimech is rolling out the door with for zell purposes, or is it okay to simply say 'Hauptmann' in the bid and the Clanners have to find out for themselves what it's packing?

This of course wouldn't just hold true for IS forces, but for Clan as well- if the Falcons show up to beat on the Wolves, would they announce 'Timber Wolf' in the defending force, or would they be required by Clan rules to say 'Timber Wolf A', or 'Timber Wolf carrying [insert custom loadout here]'?

I'd been pondering this while getting a short story written earlier, and I'm not really sure which way to go on this.

[Weirdo]

I figure you just tell them about the chassis, and it's up to them to know this means that mech could be loaded with one of many configurations.

[dgorsman]

The field of battle would be known, and given some knowledge of who is defending that should be enough to guess what would be fielded.

[Fallen_Raven]

Assuming they request what you are using to defend, you can give as much or as little detail as you want. The more detail you give though, the closer their bid would need to be. If you say you have a company, they can respond with a binary. If you list the chasis, then they would need to match the broad capabilities implied (no Shadowcats against a Victor). If you give tell them the exact loadouts, then they need to make sure they have loadouts that are similar. You've bid away useful intelligence about your defense, and honor and pride demand that they respond to some degree.

Of course none of this is written law. You're dealing with rules of tradition and honor that aren't constant across the Clans. Like much of the bidding system, there's going to be a huge amount of seeing how much chest puffing you can do to provoke bravado before you oversell and get in more fight than you can handle. There's also the issue where might makes right, and you can get away with cheesy exploits of the rules as long as you win.

[Colt Ward]

From the Invasion on the Clan side you notify about the chassis . . . so for instance, a secondline does it?  I am attacking with a Phoenix Hawk IIC- but I do not have to disclose if its the 1, 2, or a customized ride.  So I do not need to say my Timber Wolf is a Prime or D when I land . . . and from there I can reconfigure to what is needed on the fly during the Trial if it needs to happen.

For example, I want to say they specifically talked about reconfiguring some of the Omnis on Tukayyid to equip with more energy weapons to conserve munitions.  I think there were also some of the later Invasion waves where they transitioned from one type of battlefield (landed in the woods) to another after pushing the enemy back (the open plains around the city).  I THINK it was Rasalhague.

So IMO the Lyran does not disclose what config that Hauptman is initially, let alone that you are using a Warhammer 9S instead of a old 6R- the unit history SHOULD give a clue as to how well equipped the bid unit is to the other side.

Fallen_Raven's break down hints at some of how Teddy's bid against the Jags might have manipulated their response.

[rebs]

I agree with the camp that you do not have to disclose an exact configuration for an omni.  You can, but you do not have to.  Maybe extra honor points in revealing that much information, but maybe not. 

[massey]

I figured you just gave them a basic idea of what your forces are.

"I defend this planet with the Hell's Satans, a battalion of heavy and medium mechs."

[dgorsman]

I think it can also depend on the size of the trial.  If it's a cluster (+/-) then it won't matter that much.  If it's down to less than a star, then more details would be expected - possibly down to bidding away individual weapons and equipment.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, I think this conversation has happened before since the Gargoyle could be the Prime or the C, which would be very different bids.

[rebs]

I think it can also depend on the size of the trial.  If it's a cluster (+/-) then it won't matter that much.  If it's down to less than a star, then more details would be expected - possibly down to bidding away individual weapons and equipment.

That can be done, but bidding away individual weapons is for warriors in the field, not for a batchall.   

[DarkSpade]

I can't recall any time a challenge was answered that specifically.  It's always, "a heavy binary," "a scout star," " a nova with a star of air support and a mixed star of tanks and elementals," for clan forces, or "everything we have!," or "how about a game of American football?" with inner sphere forces.

I think the only time it ever gets specific is if it's a one on one duel, and even then, I don't think it's ever more than the chassis.

[Two Guns Blazing]

This bidding is the one thing I really dislike about the Clans, it is beyond ridiculous...but from the reading I've done, I got the idea that you state the major units, i.e Regiment, and state how many Mech, vehicle, aerospace and Infantry sub units it contains (and perhaps actual number of Mechs), and also the unit's combat history and overall experience rating, and perhaps any major battle honours or achievements. I never got the feeling from the material I have read that detail down to the level of specific Mech configurations was either required or expected.

[Colt Ward]

I think its a carry-over from the point system where PCs bid against each other to take a objective- but all that required was a declaration of weight class.  But like I said, it has set up a question of is the Gargoyle Prime and a Gargoyle C in the same class, really?  The answer to that is they are both Omnis, and so you could change configs if the Trial went on long enough.  But as the Oathmaster of Trial, if the final bids are the same I would give it to the side that had more (so-called) stinkers of Omni configs- Gargoyle Prime & B, Timberwolf B, and a few others.

From everything I have seen its a good foundation- had to add/value Elementals and Clan vehs for later periods, but over all it was a good way for the Clan players to compete in the bid.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I can't recall any time a challenge was answered that specifically.  It's always, "a heavy binary," "a scout star," " a nova with a star of air support and a mixed star of tanks and elementals," for clan forces, or "everything we have!," or "how about a game of American football?" with inner sphere forces.

I think the only time it ever gets specific is if it's a one on one duel, and even then, I don't think it's ever more than the chassis.

Same.  At most you'll be informed of the weight class.  In most stories where a batchall is actually shown being carried out it tends to be more things like "I am Star Captain so and so, and I bid my entire trinary" or "I bring three points of force to this trial."

[dgorsman]

Why waste time reciting your TO&E when you could be grandstanding over your own accomplishments? I always assumed it was just sent electronically once bidding was complete.

[TigerShark]

Big difference between what players do to balance a game and what is done in canon. The above post is correct, IMO, according to the literature we have available. You're declaring the size of your force to your enemy and nothing more.

Also, there is a separate batchall that goes on within the Clan for the right to fight the battle. That one would be more specific. i.e.: "I bid two points of Huitzilopochtli artillery," and the counter-bid waives the artillery entirely for two points of (weaker) conventional vehicles. At that point, your individual weapons do matter, since they play into the type of augmented duels that occur on the field. A point of BattleArmor, for example, doesn't normally face a fully-armed 'Mech in a zellbrigen duel (if the warriors are ordered to disregard hunting rules, then all bets are off). The MechWarriors would bid away weapons for the right to face that force, as it wouldn't earn them any respect or glory to defeat them from 600m away. So at that point you're likely to see someone bidding a weaker configuration and getting into the nuts-and-bolts of their force.

[Kit deSummersville]

When OmniMechs first made their debut they were in the trial but used two different configurations, which flummoxed the poor Cloud Cobras.

[GermanSumo]

uhm... they not only say this... they also specify detailed force information. nobody remember the codizes being exchanged? with vitae and mech assignments! there were not many "games" played within the batchall rules. you announced your unit (giving everybody a fair chance of guessing what wheight classes you brought), your target and goals. then you waited for the defender to announce themselves. some batchalls were more detailled, some were kept more general. then your commanding officers had a chance to bid amongst themselves if there was room for individual batchalls. and ALL codizes of the forces that were entering the battlefields were exchanged. a long time before deployment. at that early stages clan commanders didnt have experience with the dezgra spheroid warfare AND were convinced they could overcome them with stubborn believe in clan way of fighting. so in the fluff, they did actually give each other detailled informations about each other before the fight.

but theres one caveat. as long as you piloted an omni mech you were expected to defeat ANY other (omni-)mech. no matter what poor config or how many tons you had available for your ride.

this went out of the window pretty fast sometime after tukkayid and luthien though!

[Colt Ward]

No . . . the order went . . .

Commanders on the same side bid between themselves for the right to lead the attack.  You can see this when Phelan is with Ranna watching the bidding and Ranna finds out her star has been cut from the bid.  Similarly when Natasha is bidding against Star Colonel Marcos, and she just randomly cuts stars driving it down to give him heartburn.  Then asks if that is it, you know to avoid wasting time.  Then she said her final bid is- 'One.'  Marcos pulls out his remaining hair asking what?! One Trinary, One Binary, One Star??  One warrior, and only one warrior.  We see the Jags bid among themselves, with some never seen before bits about knives/stars, to see who gets to hit the Highlanders that land on Wayside.  Plus other incidents.  They already know what the defenders will be by this point since information among the Clans was never hidden and during the Invasion ComStar was providing up to date info for numbers.

The winning commander contacts saying they are attacking with 'Two Trinaries of the 4th Wolf Guards Cluster' what do you defend with?  They typically transmit the unit histories and codexes at the time- the codex does not say what you pilot, its a dossier & genetic information.  A codex will state when you left the sibko, how well you did in your Trial of Position, any combat since, Bloodname prospects MAYBE, and who your geneparents were for the iron womb.  Unit history will simply be a list of engagements (check battle streamers on unit flags for an idea) . . . for example, my old unit?  Chased Pancho Villa, involved in WWI, WWII in Sicily, Italy and France, and Rhineland (we freed Dauchau- the unit museum talks about the conditions and displays trooper's records), to Korea in '51, Desert Storm where we won recognition that pissed off the regulars for at least 20 years (basically until they retired), Iraq round II, Iraq patrol x2, and Afghanistan.  The point of the unit histories is to make your victory mean something because you face a storied opponent.  Facing the 4th Wolf Guards is a bigger deal than facing the 11th Wolf Regulars, simply because the Guards won that title through their service.  Facing a SLDF vintage unit, like the 328th Assault Cluster, is a bigger deal than facing a Falcon Eyrie cluster- and I say that as more than the Falcon v Wolf rivalry.

None of that says Mechwarrior Pierre plans to pilot a Gargoyle D in the fight rather than a Gargoyle Prime.  Now, while the Wolves would not say Pierre has a Gargoyle the unsecured nature of the information the Clans share means before the Invasion most of the Clans will know a unit's equipment composition since the information is wide open.  Mechwarrior Pierre's codex WILL say he is from Trinary Assault in the 4th Wolf Guards, but its not going to say he drives a Gargoyle.

Once the defenders knew what unit was attacking and objectives, along with the information sent they would either have a immediate response (sometimes in fiction) though more likely they said "BRB" if they were going to defend with less than everything.  Which is where the defendering commander bid among themselves to defend the target of the Trial.  This does happen in several fiction/SB sources as well.

[GermanSumo]

from sarna (risking inaccuracies):

"A Codex is a Clan trueborn warrior's identification and service record and is especially important among the Bloodnamed. Typically worn as a bracelet, it records everything from battle honors, recorded kills and injuries to physical characteristics, test scores and genetic history, including to which Bloodhouse and generation the warrior belongs. The bracelet can also display an electronic representation of the warrior's DNA for identification purposes. This same information is also maintained in a central Genetic Repository and used by the scientist caste to determine which bloodlines to combine to create the perfect warrior.[1][2][3]

Freeborn warriors are also given a codex, however it only contains information about their career and health since only the genetic material of Bloodnamed trueborn warriors is used in the eugenics program."

i always thought battle honors included specific information about battles. i could be wrong though.

[Decoy]

Gar. Didn't read the thread fully. I think that Omnimech's reconfigurability is taken as a fact. For another example, Per Roshak bid for his battle on Glory and then had Aidan's star specifically reconfigured and then sent them off to do a rescue mission.

[TigerShark]

from sarna (risking inaccuracies):

"A Codex is a Clan trueborn warrior's identification and service record and is especially important among the Bloodnamed. Typically worn as a bracelet, it records everything from battle honors, recorded kills and injuries to physical characteristics, test scores and genetic history, including to which Bloodhouse and generation the warrior belongs. The bracelet can also display an electronic representation of the warrior's DNA for identification purposes. This same information is also maintained in a central Genetic Repository and used by the scientist caste to determine which bloodlines to combine to create the perfect warrior.[1][2][3]

Freeborn warriors are also given a codex, however it only contains information about their career and health since only the genetic material of Bloodnamed trueborn warriors is used in the eugenics program."

i always thought battle honors included specific information about battles. i could be wrong though.

It does. That's how other Clans find out about, say, MechWarrior Diana being a freeborn who competed for a bloodname. It wasn't some Clan Watch operation; her codex was public knowledge. And it would have contained the details of her saving a Trueborn from his 'Mech during the trial. It also would have shown her allowing him to die, if she'd done so; probably why she bothered to save him at all.

[Colt Ward]

It does. That's how other Clans find out about, say, MechWarrior Diana being a freeborn who competed for a bloodname. It wasn't some Clan Watch operation; her codex was public knowledge. And it would have contained the details of her saving a Trueborn from his 'Mech during the trial. It also would have shown her allowing him to die, if she'd done so; probably why she bothered to save him at all.

Uh, it probably would NOT show either one . . . think of it as the equivalent of the fruit salad on a uniform.  For some of the older guys in my unit back in the 2000s it showed their active duty participation (one guy had been infantry) so he had a CIB, it had his rifle marksmenship badge, it had their Desert Storm badge, the OIF, a Army Commendation Badge, a Good Conduct medal, the rainbow ribbon (forget its real name, that is what folks called it), and anything else.  And like looking at the codex you can tell if the guy is a chairborne ranger or a real fighter- or you should, some crappy commands hand things out like candy.

Now IF she got a commedation like 'Turkina's Talons' or whatever special award the Falcons got, the it might be mentioned in relation to the commendation.

[GermanSumo]

Uh, it probably would NOT show either one . . . think of it as the equivalent of the fruit salad on a uniform.  For some of the older guys in my unit back in the 2000s it showed their active duty participation (one guy had been infantry) so he had a CIB, it had his rifle marksmenship badge, it had their Desert Storm badge, the OIF, a Army Commendation Badge, a Good Conduct medal, the rainbow ribbon (forget its real name, that is what folks called it), and anything else.  And like looking at the codex you can tell if the guy is a chairborne ranger or a real fighter- or you should, some crappy commands hand things out like candy.

Now IF she got a commedation like 'Turkina's Talons' or whatever special award the Falcons got, the it might be mentioned in relation to the commendation.

well... i smell a fundamental disagreement there. i wonder, if there ever was a a more detailled ruling about this.

[massey]

As I recall, Theodore Kurita screwed with the records of the Genyosha regiments to throw off the Smoke Jaguars.  I don't think the information was so specific as to include exact mech breakdowns, more along the lines of unit history.  They appeared to be green regiments, but actually had more experienced warriors.  The Jags didn't figure it out.

[Colt Ward]

well... i smell a fundamental disagreement there. i wonder, if there ever was a a more detailled ruling about this.

Look, it will include his/her last gunnery score/evaluation- if the Clans even go in for that sort of thing, more likely they would include his/her last Trial of Position performance which does not always use the mech they are assigned.  Mech assignments can also change at the drop of a hat, consider when Phelan ran into Vlad he was in a Timber Wolf which was a temp ride due to the ad hoc nature of the scout star that was being used.

Also, the recitation before a Bloodname Trial battle would be a summary of what is in the codex/personal history.  'On Satalice, I defeated the Rasalhague heir in single combat taking him as a bondsmen' did not mention the near 30 ton disparity in mechs nor that Phelan was piloting a 35 ton machine.  Every Bloodname Trial recitation we get- be it Falcon, Wolf, Jaguar . . . Bear? . . have we gotten anyone else?  Does not say what they are piloting when they defeat a opponent- with the exception of defeating a Elemental in hand to hand battle.

[GermanSumo]

Look, it will include his/her last gunnery score/evaluation- if the Clans even go in for that sort of thing, more likely they would include his/her last Trial of Position performance which does not always use the mech they are assigned.  Mech assignments can also change at the drop of a hat, consider when Phelan ran into Vlad he was in a Timber Wolf which was a temp ride due to the ad hoc nature of the scout star that was being used.

Also, the recitation before a Bloodname Trial battle would be a summary of what is in the codex/personal history.  'On Satalice, I defeated the Rasalhague heir in single combat taking him as a bondsmen' did not mention the near 30 ton disparity in mechs nor that Phelan was piloting a 35 ton machine.  Every Bloodname Trial recitation we get- be it Falcon, Wolf, Jaguar . . . Bear? . . have we gotten anyone else?  Does not say what they are piloting when they defeat a opponent- with the exception of defeating a Elemental in hand to hand battle.

look... even tigershark disagrees with you here. it wasnt ever fully spelled out what detailled information is in the codex. your military experiences only go so far in a furturistic setting. so please... we disagree and thats it. i dont need to convince you and vice versa.

[Scotty]

@ the OP, I'd think that an estimation of size and "tech level" is all an opponent is obliged to divulge if they are even following Zell.  For a Hauptman, that'd be an "Assault OmniMech".  Your opponent neither deserves nor should get a preview of how to hard counter your defenses.

[DarkSpade]

Your opponent neither deserves nor should get a preview of how to hard counter your defenses.

Unless you're really trying to show off.

"I will defend this supply depot with a U config Summoner!"

"Um... Is this not a desert planet?"

"Ah!  So this Wolf's tail is deep between its legs already is it!?"

[glitterboy2098]

Uh, it probably would NOT show either one . . . think of it as the equivalent of the fruit salad on a uniform.  For some of the older guys in my unit back in the 2000s it showed their active duty participation (one guy had been infantry) so he had a CIB, it had his rifle marksmenship badge, it had their Desert Storm badge, the OIF, a Army Commendation Badge, a Good Conduct medal, the rainbow ribbon (forget its real name, that is what folks called it), and anything else.  And like looking at the codex you can tell if the guy is a chairborne ranger or a real fighter- or you should, some crappy commands hand things out like candy.

Now IF she got a commedation like 'Turkina's Talons' or whatever special award the Falcons got, the it might be mentioned in relation to the commendation.

i would assume the codex itself would not carry the battleROM's or accounts of the battles, but that it would include enough data on the person and the battle (time, place, location, people involved, etc) that it would be trivial to pull up the after action reports, debriefings, and even the battleROM's if available. it might even be the equivalent of hyper-linked so that when read from a computer you can pull up

remember this is a digital record, not a physical one. it isn't space limited the way award ribbons are. a Codex is basically the clan warrior's entire personnel file.

[Colt Ward]

Sure, and yes with that information you could look it up . . . but its something worn on the wrist as imagined from the 90s.  Its not exactly going to have the storage of a 2010s thumb drive.

[Maingunnery]

Even with the Clans I  can imagine that they don't want each codex to be a massive potential intelligence leak.

However the codex often survives beyond the Warriors death, so I think that they prioritize durability above storage capacity.

[deathfrombeyond]

So, here’s a related question.

Let’s say that’s the bids are finalized....but one or more of the warriors is incapacitated. (Illness, whatever)

How much allowance would the clans allow in such a situation? Do you think a substitution might be allowed?

[Two Guns Blazing]

So, here’s a related question.

Let’s say that’s the bids are finalized....but one or more of the warriors is incapacitated. (Illness, whatever)

How much allowance would the clans allow in such a situation? Do you think a substitution might be allowed?

It would be viewed as dishonourable to face your enemy without your stated strength...I feel the opposing Clan force would feel insulted if you did not replace the warrior...

[deathfrombeyond]

It would be viewed as dishonourable to face your enemy without your stated strength...I feel the opposing Clan force would feel insulted if you did not replace the warrior...

“Whoops, veteran star commander Tristan has the measles right now. The only other available warrior is elite star captain max.”

[TigerShark]

So, here’s a related question.

Let’s say that’s the bids are finalized....but one or more of the warriors is incapacitated. (Illness, whatever)

How much allowance would the clans allow in such a situation? Do you think a substitution might be allowed?

Yes. Unless it's a freeborn warrior replacing a trueborn, in which case most Clans would feel that's something important to state. But that's another situation of "it's not Clan law, it's Clan custom." You're free to field whatever you like. If your opponent isn't strong-enough to defeat you, they're going to expose themselves by complaining in Clan council.
What would they say, honestly? "My opponent was too skilled! We should have had an easier fight! We demand a Trial of Grievance!"?

[Fallen_Raven]

So, here’s a related question.

Let’s say that’s the bids are finalized....but one or more of the warriors is incapacitated. (Illness, whatever)

How much allowance would the clans allow in such a situation? Do you think a substitution might be allowed?

You bid more strength than you can deploy. Its now on you to show your skill in overcoming this challenge.

[Sharkapult]

So, here’s a related question.

Let’s say that’s the bids are finalized....but one or more of the warriors is incapacitated. (Illness, whatever)

How much allowance would the clans allow in such a situation? Do you think a substitution might be allowed?

I think it would depend on the whole bid. You can call in more forces based on your cut downs and what you initially bid right? If I was your opponent I would not allow substitutions without a loss of honor.
"Inferior genetic material in your warrior or inferior medical techs. Either case reflects on you as an incapable commander. I look forward to claiming you as isorla; cleaning actuators is a more true use of your talent level. Removing you from command will make your clan stronger by subtraction. Let none interfere, Seyla."

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, and no warrior is going to drop for anything less than a broken spine.

[Kit deSummersville]

Star Commander Elway is doubtful with a sore hamstring and Point Commander Marino is probably with turf toe.

[skiltao]

From the bidding scenes I can recall from the novels, I don't think the person you're bidding against is typically aware of which specific warriors or machines you're bidding. They may have opinions on the quality of individuals under your command, but the real weight seems to be on unit type and number.

If I was your opponent I would not allow substitutions without a loss of honor.
"Inferior genetic material in your warrior or inferior medical techs. Either case reflects on you as an incapable commander. I look forward to claiming you as isorla; cleaning actuators is a more true use of your talent level. Removing you from command will make your clan stronger by subtraction. Let none interfere, Seyla."

The attackers bid among themselves - the defender doesn't typically know what was or wasn't bid until the battle starts.

I think it would depend on the whole bid. You can call in more forces based on your cut downs and what you initially bid right?

From Blood Legacy: "A commander went in to attack with whatever he had bid, but could bring down reinforcements equal to his rival's last bid" (which isn't the same thing as the "cut down"), "without penalty. Ultimately, he could bring down as much as the opening bid in the contest for that planet, but his rival would have to allow him that option, which would mean concessions to the losing bidder."

The particulars may vary from Clan to Clan.

[Sharkapult]

From the bidding scenes I can recall from the novels, I don't think the person you're bidding against is typically aware of which specific warriors or machines you're bidding. They may have opinions on the quality of individuals under your command, but the real weight seems to be on unit type and number.

The attackers bid among themselves - the defender doesn't typically know what was or wasn't bid until the battle starts.

From Blood Legacy: "A commander went in to attack with whatever he had bid, but could bring down reinforcements equal to his rival's last bid" (which isn't the same thing as the "cut down"), "without penalty. Ultimately, he could bring down as much as the opening bid in the contest for that planet, but his rival would have to allow him that option, which would mean concessions to the losing bidder."

The particulars may vary from Clan to Clan.

From what I understood both sides know the composition of their opponents. How else could the defenders bid appropriately? That's the whole point of codexes. If I deviate from that bid it could have severe consequences.
Without transparency the whole bidding idea just doesn't work. Otherwise I would just substitute equipment and personnel after the initial bid and my opponent would have no idea.
I seem to remember in Roar of Honor both commanders commenting on the capabilities and qualities of the opposite side.

[Colt Ward]

She tracked number of units and weight- IIRC one of the first missions was trying to find out what the Wolves were using.  Before Op Revival, if someone said they were attacking with Trinary Heavy of the 4th Wolf Guards the defender is going to have a good idea what mechs they are fielding with maybe one or two different from the last time they were seen on combat.  Especially if they are facing off against someone on the same world they have fought before.  Guess it sort of depends on how much of Trial activity makes the 'news' on the Chatterweb.

Each side knows their exact forces, its how commanders bid against each other- and I think this is backed up by the holotank pop up windows we see in the BoK trilogy.  They tell the defenders they are attacking with X cluster, Y trinaries and types, or even Z stars.  Look at the information about the initial Omni trials, they did not explain the technology to those they were fighting and the capabilities surprised opponents several times.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There are several novels where after a Batchall has been issued, the POV characters then review their information on the enemy force and guess what mechs and (if omnis) what configurations they're likely to see fielded.  They explicitly don't actually know whether Star Commander Bob is going to be using a Vulture Prime or a Vulture A until after shots are exchanged.

[Kit deSummersville]

How else could the defenders bid appropriately?

They bid what they want and expect the attackers to bid appropriately in order to ensure the winning bid gets some glory. No one is going to support a warrior for a bloodname if they keep bringing a cluster to fight a star.

[Sharkapult]

They bid what they want and expect the attackers to bid appropriately in order to ensure the winning bid gets some glory. No one is going to support a warrior for a bloodname if they keep bringing a cluster to fight a star.

But the attackers announce their forces first in a batchall, the defenders then decide how much of their force they will use to defend. If they don't have a good idea of what a "3rd Striker Star" is made up of then how do the defenders stand out and gain glory? The defenders don't want to sledgehammer a light recon star with a star of assaults, especially considering the clans views of wasteful actions.
In my opinion it would make a lot of sense to have a serious exchange of information during the batchall. Otherwise what would stop a savvy attackers from swapping a green pilot for a bloodnamed one or a Baboon for a Fire Falcon? The defenders would never know. Omni configs I get, that info would probably not be given up.
If I'm wrong I'll just chalk it up as another one of those things that just doesn't make sense about the game universe I love so much.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If you're garrisoning a planet with enough force that you can bid an assault star, anyone who raids the planet without sufficient force to take on your potential bid is stupid.  And if they bid down to a recon star they deserve what's going to happen to them.

[Colt Ward]

They have some pretty standard meanings . . . so a heavy star, IMO you are expecting anything from 3H & 2M to 4H & 1A . . . maybe 2 depending on the Clan or if they are Gargoyles.  If you look at the Quad-Vee entry info, I want to say one source talked about how the Horses threw who they were fighting for a loop b/c they organized them in vehicle points- so surprise! Falcon/Wolf/Bear, you now face a pair of Quads when you were expecting tanks!

I think that right there says they do not spell out the machines.  Also, since they all come from the Star League, they started with the same baseline definition of 'Striker Lance/Company' . . . and again, its the machines that are not revealed.  They share the codexes of the warriors involved- its part of how the trueborns who kill every freeborn they face know who to look for . . .

[Sharkapult]

If you're garrisoning a planet with enough force that you can bid an assault star, anyone who raids the planet without sufficient force to take on your potential bid is stupid.  And if they bid down to a recon star they deserve what's going to happen to them.

Clans fight over more than just "Everything you have!" A raid might be for a warrior's breeding rights or just the yearly grain yield from the farms on a continent, or even water rights on a shared planet. Where normal societies bargain and cut a deal the clans fight. (And strive for a fair fight) The attacking clan would see a smaller bid as a more appropriate use of resources depending on the target. Obviously no one is going to defend Tokasha with a single star. (better bring multiple galaxies)
When it comes to QuadVees, I always saw that more as a lack of understanding of what they were and their capabilities than a lack of provided info, but it certainly leans towards subterfuge that their "in-between" nature allows in a lack of info.

[Colt Ward]

No, the fluff was quite explicit that the Horses organized them as vehicle points so they would have a star with 10 'mechs' that was deceptive in the bidding.  They got away with it in initial bidding b/c the opponents did not recognize/know what was in that star/point, but I want to say the attitude was that it was a dezgra trick.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Clans fight over more than just "Everything you have!" A raid might be for a warrior's breeding rights or just the yearly grain yield from the farms on a continent, or even water rights on a shared planet. Where normal societies bargain and cut a deal the clans fight. (And strive for a fair fight) The attacking clan would see a smaller bid as a more appropriate use of resources depending on the target. Obviously no one is going to defend Tokasha with a single star. (better bring multiple galaxies)

No, but if "an assault star" is something that you can reasonably expect to be part of the garrison force and therefore reasonably expect to be the winning bid for the trial, if you didn't prepare to take on that much force when you bid, the failure is all on you.

[skiltao]

But the attackers announce their forces first in a batchall, the defenders then decide how much of their force they will use to defend. If they don't have a good idea of what a "3rd Striker Star" is made up of then how do the defenders stand out and gain glory?

The attacker knows roughly how valuable the thing they're attacking is. They'll arrive with more than enough forces, announce themselves, get a response from the defenders, and then the attacker's subcommanders bid their subforces down as low as they can while still having a reasonable expectation of victory - the goal is a challenging fight, not a fair fight.

The attackers have the advantage and the defenders stand out by overcoming that advantage.