BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => Ground Combat => Topic started by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 25 April 2024, 17:48:24
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Assault BA suits tend to be tough and well-armed, but they're also slow and unable to use omni transportation. As such, they need dedicated vehicle transports if they want to get anywhere on a battlefield. What are some of the better/personal favorites for this duty? Using both the standard and optional rules for transporting BA regarding infantry bay size.
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Personally I like vtols for BA deployment, so I tend to use a Shun or a Cardinal. The Shun has 12 tons of infantry space, stealth armour, tag, and a pair of mag shots linked to a targeting computer. The Cardinal has 10 tons of infantry space, a lrm 5, an lbx 2 and a pair of ap gauss rifles.
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The good news is you only need a max of 6t in order to carry Battle Armor, and only 4 for most Inner Sphere.
The one downside to VTOL carriers is that they have to land in order for most Assault BA to disembark.
The next most mobile are Hovers. However, a good forest can pretty much leave them boxed in. Wheeled and Tracked are the next options.
Wheeled transports are even more limited than Hovers, as they aren't Amphibious, while also having little more speed (if any) than the Tracked Transports.
Tracked don't have many limitations in where they can go, but they tend to be the slowest options.
If they could Mechanize, I would say the Bandit is an excellent option for Inner Sphere or Clan. They can't, though, so those aren't as effective.
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It's too bad we don't have the option I'd say is most logical from a cost/investment perspective; An armored flatbed truck with reinforced benches. Battlesuits come with their OWN armor, the problem has always been moving them fast enough to use them, and most of the vehicles for doing so, are enclosed and prevent them from both using their weapons while embarked, and slows down deployment at the arrival since they have to go through a door.
Take something like the old M3 or the german half-tracks from the 2nd World War, give it a bigger engine to go faster, and a pintle mount support weapon-you could even have the cab armored with a turret, but the key cost here would be converting a commercial truck with an armored skid-plate, steel benches and sidewalls that let the suits hop over 'em (or drop to form ramps).
NOBODY does this, not in the fiction, not in the game, but it's the most obvious choice, since you only need a Prime Mover and a few minutes to hours with a welding kit.
(admittedly, done right, this gives you a 'transport' vehicle for your suits that costs less than any one of the suits it's carrying...)
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Thinking from a Clanner’s perspective, are there any options with a 10-ton or larger infantry compartment or cargo bay besides the Aithon, Cardinal, and Saladin (Clan Cargo)? (Unless the Clan unit steals some Spheroid transport design.) None of those those really light my fire.
In terms of 5-ton infantry compartment options, I’ve always been partial to the Eldingar. The ATMs and SRMs have a decent close-range punch during BA deployment, and the ATMs can still hit from a safe distance after BA deployment. Better close-range punch and more armor than the Tyr. Svantovit is marginally faster, but under gunner and grossly underarmored. The Bandit (Clan) C is worthy of mention for its trio of pulse mediums.
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Okay, I play Alpha Strike, so the assaults are CAR4/5/6, not more.
My favourite for Inner Sphere squads is the Manteuffel D. Two squads inside, one (not necessarily assault) on the outside. Talk about armoured! Useful support armament (LPPC & LRM10), but won't tempt the tank into combat. The Main Gauche IFV is a faster alternative, albeit for one squad; usefully tough, and the plasma cannon is a great equaliser. The Bandit H carries two squads inside, optional on the outside.
For WoB, you're spoiled for choice - the Trajan, Bolla, and Magi UICV. Bolla gets the double-play option too.
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It's too bad we don't have the option I'd say is most logical from a cost/investment perspective; An armored flatbed truck with reinforced benches. Battlesuits come with their OWN armor, the problem has always been moving them fast enough to use them, and most of the vehicles for doing so, are enclosed and prevent them from both using their weapons while embarked, and slows down deployment at the arrival since they have to go through a door.
Take something like the old M3 or the german half-tracks from the 2nd World War, give it a bigger engine to go faster, and a pintle mount support weapon-you could even have the cab armored with a turret, but the key cost here would be converting a commercial truck with an armored skid-plate, steel benches and sidewalls that let the suits hop over 'em (or drop to form ramps).
NOBODY does this, not in the fiction, not in the game, but it's the most obvious choice, since you only need a Prime Mover and a few minutes to hours with a welding kit.
(admittedly, done right, this gives you a 'transport' vehicle for your suits that costs less than any one of the suits it's carrying...)
Part of the reason is that if that Flatbed Truck is shot, it will be destroyed. That leaves a 33% chance of the Infantry unit inside of dying for what the Damage of a LRM-5 or an LRM-10 can provide (Total Warfare pg 223-224).
If one can provide a reasonable assumption that Flatbed Truck would be unmolested till it reached the Deployment point, it's a perfectly good idea, but anyone who knows that cheap and fragile vehicle is carrying an annoying/terrifying squad of nigh-immortal BA (relatively speaking) will put more than enough fire in to wiping it out leaving that BA either hoofing it, or dead in their transport.
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What are some of the better/personal favorites for this duty?
I can only answer for the "favorites" part in saying that my own A-BA Transports are almost exclusively the Maxim (CAR-4/12) & Karnov (CAR-6/8) in any game I play.
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Being that the flat-bed truck doesn't carry cargo internally, I'm fairly certain the BA would survive its destruction (albeit, hoofing it, as described). The trucks are so cheap, I think they'd still be worth the investment.
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In my head-canon, I distinguish between tactical deployment, and logistic deployment. The latter is thin-skinned transport, to get the BA from point A to point B in good time. A subset of this could be use of fast hovers or VTOLs to deploy heavier BA in blocking positions, or lighter BA into spotting/ambush positions, ahead of actual engagement.
Most BT games are, I imagine, using tactical deployment, where the need is for a relatively thick-skinned transport that can survive with the battle going on around it. Hellraiser, how do your Karnovs survive when the heat is on?
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I like the Maxim and had good experience with the heavy wheeled.
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My Karnovs and Anhurs survive because they move fast, assault BA are not really tactical deployment units IMO, they are defensive area denial assets. If I needed to get BA into a fight I'm doing it on an Omnivehicle/mech or hover IFV like the Maxim.
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Heavy APCs are cheap and do the job well enough... that said, Worktroll has a really good point too! :)
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Being that the flat-bed truck doesn't carry cargo internally, I'm fairly certain the BA would survive its destruction (albeit, hoofing it, as described). The trucks are so cheap, I think they'd still be worth the investment.
I know there's rule for flatbed railcars but where they expanded to include flatbed trucks?
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In AlphaStrike, one can exchange CT (cargo transport) for IT (infantry transport) by agreement before a game. I don't know page references for similar in TW, but expect they're in one of the supplements (probably TO?) Either way, I imagine welding tubing for the suits to hang onto should be simple enough ;)
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In my head-canon, I distinguish between tactical deployment, and logistic deployment. The latter is thin-skinned transport, to get the BA from point A to point B in good time. A subset of this could be use of fast hovers or VTOLs to deploy heavier BA in blocking positions, or lighter BA into spotting/ambush positions, ahead of actual engagement.
You've now got me picturing a squad of Kanazuchis awkwardly squeezed onto a bullet train.
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In AlphaStrike, one can exchange CT (cargo transport) for IT (infantry transport) by agreement before a game. I don't know page references for similar in TW, but expect they're in one of the supplements (probably TO?) Either way, I imagine welding tubing for the suits to hang onto should be simple enough ;)
Even with that, we need rules for them getting out of said Flat Bed like Mechanized while not being actually Mechanized, rather than just assuming they exist. It's not like the CAR rules in Alpha Strike allow the Infantry to get out easier than a normal Infantry Bay.
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Hellraiser, how do your Karnovs survive when the heat is on?
Surprisingly well actually :smilie_happy_thumbup:
Of course, I tend to use Flank Speed (or Sprint if that rule is in use) and blocking terrain for a turn or 2 to get them to deployment point & then RUN AWAY RUN AWAY for the rest of the game to my own backfield & hide.
I use my Karnovs for their large cargo room & ability to go over hills/trees, but if they heat is on, they drop & hide.
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Heavy APCs are cheap and do the job well enough... that said, Worktroll has a really good point too! :)
Agreed on both counts.
Heavy APC isn't something I normally run in my games but its for sure something I fluff as most Militia using.
Meanwhile WT mentioned the Mantef-D above which is a beast & I love it, but, I also don't own the mini & would find some issue with justifying my cheapo mercs having access to them with their "new" (for the CI/CW eras) production limited house access & pricey XL engine when those mercs can use ICE powered cheapo Maxims/Karnovs that are more effective than the Heavy APC lines but also not touching the XL-HeavyOmni pricetag either.
That said, for a 1-off game playing FedCom House unit in the Jihad, oh yes, please, she is PURTY.
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Meanwhile WT mentioned the Mantef-D above which is a beast & I love it, but, I also don't own the mini & would find some issue with justifying my cheapo mercs having access to them with their "new" (for the CI/CW eras) production limited house access & pricey XL engine when those mercs can use ICE powered cheapo Maxims/Karnovs that are more effective than the Heavy APC lines but also not touching the XL-HeavyOmni pricetag either.
All my Manteuffels are MW:DA minis, which are reasonably sized enough for use, especially with Alpha Strike.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qPievWbfGGK-mEDPAE77A4HdztqO8wyoMdKDISspmvXXdiH1eZIOU4XoalAyl5urePcNiUsxvwyN8QGnWLNtrmEkUONHI-uR3OBh4Ekx1KsXCf3NnU2_L-Pje1XfrGVoTRK6u4vX3zHzEvCaRd6_DzNA_I0pK-1LkMtO_oRJNYJQBzyRUknXY3qPXla7mgtY2fMC1OkMLGMiyxkVJ8HW-Lwr4Y01zBmzqk6ca10lxboU1qgmBGWMchs1JeQ5VR6RLw5o-RMofsFGo6HpFFtcm5xW1TTDXrsN5QdIO29VTHW7J6DxoUm8c8SMurPhvRPQZk4h_0xALtyzYE1Zf6utnhbX1iJ7d8pqlqPScEsv59_kp8OQA_w9rAEMe1_C0uGR2MwsNxmOMt1FPK9QPlNFrnSK6hTYKvKYkXTQsmSdqjo99Fk00iIYzICYpzT1rdEtMPlgNfWLTMdtk7NunkDpEddNsjFJ1qHBFKGgaVYrc12uGpt51txZHid9GNKTTDQp8lMMBVkEz9Gr145In6Q26JlrE1sGTIow149cd-iduXROKu_d7QvCGnrW-GFfTr-Bl72T=w869-h202-no)
The Ds each carry 2 squads of Kopis internally, and each tank carries a Kopi squad on the outside. Kopis converted from MW:DA Centaurs.
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For WoB, you're spoiled for choice - the Trajan, Bolla, and Magi UICV. Bolla gets the double-play option too.
I like the WoB Pinto as well. 6 ton bay with 10/15 movement. And of course, the WoB Heavy wheeled APC is a ode to excess. Though the basic Transports work as well.
Do you like the Magic UICV? Not sure how it plays in AS but I always wince at the thought of it adding to the c3i costs of other units when I think about it.
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Is there something different about the WoB Heavy APC?
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Moves 7/11 and carries a pair of small VSPLs.
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Ah, thanks! That would be pretty handy...
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Is there something different about the WoB Heavy APC?
7/11 XL engine, Heavy Ferro-Fibrous armor and twin Small VSPs, which were advanced at the time and very odd to see in a "basic" TRO.
There's also the Prowler with its 6 ton infantry bay, but I always consider that one more of a objective than a combat unit :)
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REally, for schlepping canon battlesuits, pretty much ANY APC variant is fine, as long as it has the capacity. Some are better thought out than others, or more expensive, or both.
But in general, anything that can keep up with your 'mechs will work. I like VTOL insertion for specific, mission-based games, where speed and unexpected appearance are useful or where an objective can be taken by bypassing the enemy's main battle line, I prefer hovers in swamp or maps with lots of water/ground mix that make walking difficult, wheels for urban (or where C-bill prices actually matter), tracks for everywhere else.
beyond that, 'best' really depends on the rest of your force and doctrine, the mission you're playing out, and the conditions. (you don't take VTOL or Hover in hard vacuum or under water).
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All my Manteuffels are MW:DA minis, which are reasonably sized enough for use, especially with Alpha Strike.
The Ds each carry 2 squads of Kopis internally, and each tank carries a Kopi squad on the outside. Kopis converted from MW:DA Centaurs.
1- Didn't know they ever had a Mante in DA, must have been after I quit playing.
2- Oh I'm so sad, the Centaur is so cool and you gutted them, lol
Looks amazing btw. Good Stuff!
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7/11 XL engine, Heavy Ferro-Fibrous armor and twin Small VSPs, which were advanced at the time and very odd to see in a "basic" TRO.
It wasn't a basic TRO. That was a Jihad-era variant built by the WoB, who were the ones that first came up with VSPLs in the first place. Record Sheets: 3060 Unabridged was a Jihad-era revision of the original record sheets for TRO 3060 that featured new upgrades of existing designs that took advantage of the new technology that had been rolled out in the 15 or so year since those units had been first unveiled.
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In AlphaStrike, one can exchange CT (cargo transport) for IT (infantry transport) by agreement before a game. I don't know page references for similar in TW, but expect they're in one of the supplements (probably TO?) Either way, I imagine welding tubing for the suits to hang onto should be simple enough ;)
They can do that in TW although I'm not sure where it says that at the moment. I was referring to the flatbed being outside part. As far as I can recall, the bed of a truck counts as internal cargo space.
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It wasn't a basic TRO. That was a Jihad-era variant built by the WoB, who were the ones that first came up with VSPLs in the first place. Record Sheets: 3060 Unabridged was a Jihad-era revision of the original record sheets for TRO 3060 that featured new upgrades of existing designs that took advantage of the new technology that had been rolled out in the 15 or so year since those units had been first unveiled.
I must admit, I thought it was more unique, but the MUL shows like 30 units with advanced tech from that TRO. So not as unique in that aspect. Still, it comes across as a nice little excessive piece of tech that I like. And just wince at the cost/BV :)
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That sums up WoB equipment.
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Personally I like vtols for BA deployment, so I tend to use a Shun or a Cardinal. The Shun has 12 tons of infantry space, stealth armour, tag, and a pair of mag shots linked to a targeting computer. The Cardinal has 10 tons of infantry space, a lrm 5, an lbx 2 and a pair of ap gauss rifles.
I second this. I love VTOLs for deploying BA. They're insanely mobile and can generally have the BA in the mix within two-three turns. Hovercraft work well but I don't like navigating them at flanking speed: too many PSRs for my liking. I can get VTOLs up above the terrain and minimize the amounting of turning I have to do.
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Cannon : Hyro or Gibbons . MAXUM
Custom varient of Karnov .
They really didn't publish most cannon ones until the 3085 TRO so 3058-3084 you were kinda forced to design your own on whatever chassis that presented itself
Was a Thread in Fan Designs of a single suit support Ultra Light VTOL or hover platforms that moved at I think 28/32;was the fastest.
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I like the Vargr (LRM) for Alpha Strike . IT 7, great armor, and IF1. A tad slow but tougher than most APCs.
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I like the Svantovit, the Bolla, the Badger, the Karnov, the Kirghiz, the Capellan Omnigfighter who has a similar configuration to the Kirghiz, the battle armor variant of the Maxim, and Mechs/Omnimechs to carry assault BAs. The Fronc Reaches variant of the Marshal is a great carrier for assault and heavy BAs with magclamps, as is the Black Hawk KU or the Men Shen. On the Clan side, just about any Omni will do, but if you slap a Ryoken or a Hellion with Corona suits are nasty.
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and Mechs/Omnimechs to carry assault BAs.
The Fronc Reaches variant of the Marshal is a great carrier for assault and heavy BAs with magclamps, as is the Black Hawk KU or the Men Shen.
On the Clan side, just about any Omni will do, but if you slap a Ryoken or a Hellion with Corona suits are nasty.
FYI, You can't carry Assault BA on Omni's, hence the topic.
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Ah it's been a while since I read the battle armor rules. My apologies. The Taurian Maultier wouldn't be bad either, but you would have to break a squad apart since it only has 4 tons for transport. The Blizzard could work though, and it's cheap.
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Ah it's been a while since I read the battle armor rules. My apologies. The Taurian Maultier wouldn't be bad either, but you would have to break a squad apart since it only has 4 tons for transport. The Blizzard could work though, and it's cheap.
Does Taurian Battle Armor operate in squads larger than 4?
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Checking the MUL, it looks like the Taurians use four-person squads. But under advanced rules, you need an infantry bay that can carry the full mass of the squad, so a four-trooper squad of assault BA would need 8 tons.
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Checking the MUL, it looks like the Taurians use four-person squads. But under advanced rules, you need an infantry bay that can carry the full mass of the squad, so a four-trooper squad of assault BA would need 8 tons.
Sounds like a rule to punish people using Heavy and Assault BA.
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We need more BA-specific haulers made canon. Especially for the larger ones.
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Sounds like a rule to punish people using Heavy and Assault BA.
Well, it's an optional rule.
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That really isn't an issue for the Taurians, as they only have two assault class suits, the Marauder and bought/salvaged/captured Grenadier 1s. The Marauders have magnetic clamps, and you'll have to use converted Planetlifters or split your squads up in multiple carriers. The latter would require some give on the rules since you usually take groups of BA, but I'd allow it.
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The Marauder is a heavy suit. That's how it's able to mount mag clamps.
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Sounds like a rule to punish people using Heavy and Assault BA.
More like a Realistic Rule.
Foot/Motor/Jump all weigh different amounts & need different bays.
But for BA, we have 200-750-1T-1500-2T suits, but, they all count as 1-Ton each per Tourney Rules.
So as much as it might "punish" Hvy/Aslt suits to use full weights, it is also a bonus to PA/Light suits since they can now fit squads in 1T & 3T bays respectively.
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More like a Realistic Rule.
Foot/Motor/Jump all weigh different amounts & need different bays.
But for BA, we have 200-750-1T-1500-2T suits, but, they all count as 1-Ton each per Tourney Rules.
So as much as it might "punish" Hvy/Aslt suits to use full weights, it is also a bonus to PA/Light suits since they can now fit squads in 1T & 3T bays respectively.
Sorry, it still doesn't fly well because when a ConvInf Platoon gets reduced to 7 Members, they can't use 1T Cargo unless they used Squad Deployment. Same goes if the ConvInf Platoon is just built smaller (like MML does for SRM ConvInf for some reason).
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What is the rule for just chucking BA into a flatbed truck? We have the truck with 6 tons of cargo. Does it have to specify that its infantry cargo versus normal cargo? Are they not interchangeable since they weigh the same?
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I believe they used to have separate "fluff" in the TROs.
Some would say CARGO, while others called out INFANTRY BAY.
My understanding is that TW clarified it is "all the same" at the TW scale.
That said, Alpha Strike turns around & does separate them back out as CT & IT respectively.
Though they also have an "optional rule" that makes them interchangeable if both sides agree.
For simplicity sake I think anything should be equally usable as both.
If I want to stuff my grunts in the back of a pick up truck then I can, and if I want to load my Maxim full of TP Boxes, then I can do that too.
It's just easier for game play.
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Only the finest lostech SL TP.
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Assuming the flatbed truck is good, I would use that to move BA around as a long distance hauler. Is there rules for charging the BA? Do they need special services between battles? I know the mech maintenance rules penalize you if you are 'in the field' versus in a proper transport bay, but I dont know if battle armor makes maintenance rolls for components the same way mechs do.
Like, it makes sense that you would need to get them to the dedicated transport bay on something like a dropship to repair armor, but only if the little guys actually have to make rolls to do it. If it just happens with no rolls, then they wouldnt need anything more then a truck with spare armor cargo to support them, unless there is range or charging concerns somewhere in rule form.