Author Topic: Project Aphrodite  (Read 5063 times)

Prospernia

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #30 on: 19 January 2024, 19:02:44 »
. . .

Star League scien... Magic was great

The Star League invented something that will reduce the temperature of Venus; ever heard of DOUBLE heat-sinks?

ColBosch

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #31 on: 19 January 2024, 19:03:22 »
The imprecision of jumping shouldn't preclude targeting Mars with those chunks of atmosphere... ;)

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #32 on: 19 January 2024, 19:04:27 »
The terraforming presumably happened before there were habitats on Mars vulnerable to that (the first ones should be underground).

Prospernia

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #33 on: 19 January 2024, 19:15:20 »
"Hey, we heard y'all need some atmosphere. Here you go!" *super-heated acid popping in right above the survival habitat*


In a realistic-game like Battletech, were machine-guns have a range of only 90-meters, I'd expect more realism.

cray

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #34 on: 19 January 2024, 20:07:51 »
We've got a solution: hyperspace. Use geothermal energy to power HPG-like devices that jump big chunks of atmosphere to a random point in interstellar space.

Speaking of jumping atmosphere into space...

Per JHS:Terra, Venus addressed its original atmosphere in several fashions (wait for #4):

1. Mercurian calcium was used to bind some of the excess carbon dioxide into limestone.
2. Excess nitrogen (Venus has 3x as much as Earth's atmosphere) was bound into life-friendly nitrogen compounds that turned into artificial soil of later generations
3. Excess nitrogen was sent to Mars, which is nitrogen starved
4. A good chunk of the atmosphere was launched by mass drivers to spin up the planet.

I forgot about JHS Terra having profiles on the planets I'll have to go have a look

Quite amusing that they made Venus worse and mars while successful because of all the room on Terra (with a smaller population) noone wants to live on Mars

Mars is a dry, arid desert like the Atacama Desert, even after WoB fixed it up a bit. Before it went to hell, Venus was a sultry, pleasant paradise with very rich soils and nice breezes on its plateau-continents.

The terraforming presumably happened before there were habitats on Mars vulnerable to that (the first ones should be underground).

Project Lowell eventually stripped mined dwarf planetary masses of Titan's water-ice crust to hydrate Mars. Surface habitats were not present when that was landing on Mars.
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Daryk

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #35 on: 19 January 2024, 20:11:45 »
Thanks for the backup Cray! :)

Prospernia

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #36 on: 19 January 2024, 20:22:45 »
. . .
Mars is a dry, arid desert like the Atacama Desert, even after WoB fixed it up a bit. Before it went to hell, Venus was a sultry, pleasant paradise with very rich soils and nice breezes on its plateau-continents.

. . .

Mars has a lot of permafrost, and back in the day, Mars had more water, ratio, than Earth does!!!

cray

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #37 on: 19 January 2024, 22:29:43 »
Mars has a lot of permafrost, and back in the day, Mars had more water, ratio, than Earth does!!!

No, Mars didn't have more water than Earth, nor does its permafrost add up to much. If you melted all of Mars' permafrost, then covered all of Mars with plastic sheeting to keep the water out of the ground, and put the water on top you'd get about 50 meters of water. In comparison, Earth's water coverage is about 3,000 meters.

The problem with the "if you melt all of Mars' water..." estimates is that all that water would promptly soak into the dust, cracked crust, and gravel of Mars. In other words, melting all of Mars' waters puts you exactly where you are now: all the water is soaked in the dust of Mars.

To rival Earth's water and atmosphere on Mars, you need to import lots of water. Enough to finally saturate Mars' dusty, fracture, dry crust and start a water cycle.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


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worktroll

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #38 on: 19 January 2024, 23:49:55 »
4. A good chunk of the atmosphere was launched by mass drivers to spin up the planet.

a) Mass drivers? How do you load gasses into what one would conventionally consider a mass driver (linear accelerator)?
b) Did the mass drivers accelerate the gas past planetary escape velocity, or solar escape velocity? If the first, then is there a "ring around the sun" of launched Venusian atmosphere?

I still prefer my head-canon of giant WarShip fusion engines ringing Venus' equator, pointed up at 45 degrees, with massive airscoops sucking in reaction mass. Unless one considers that a 'mass driver'.
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SCC

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #39 on: 20 January 2024, 05:08:26 »
Cray, are you working on a updated to the parts of GURPS Mars that deal with terraforming? Because it sounds like you are.

cray

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #40 on: 20 January 2024, 13:15:18 »
a) Mass drivers? How do you load gasses into what one would conventionally consider a mass driver (linear accelerator)?

Freezing or liquification then packaging. You've got planetary-scale automated industries at work in Aphrodite and Lowell, so building lots of gas buckets isn't a stretch.

Quote
b) Did the mass drivers accelerate the gas past planetary escape velocity, or solar escape velocity? If the first, then is there a "ring around the sun" of launched Venusian atmosphere?

Solar escape velocity.

Quote
I still prefer my head-canon of giant WarShip fusion engines ringing Venus' equator, pointed up at 45 degrees, with massive airscoops sucking in reaction mass. Unless one considers that a 'mass driver'.

I like that quite a bit, but engines that big weren't available in the 2100s and 2200s.

Cray, are you working on a updated to the parts of GURPS Mars that deal with terraforming? Because it sounds like you are.

Nope. I've never worked with Steve Jackson Games.
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**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Prospernia

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #41 on: 20 January 2024, 15:35:23 »
You can simply converted the CO2 atmosphere to carbon / oxygen, then use K-F technology to gate the carbon to another location.


No, Mars didn't have more water than Earth, nor does its permafrost add up to much. If you melted all of Mars' permafrost, then covered all of Mars with plastic sheeting to keep the water out of the ground, and put the water on top you'd get about 50 meters of water. In comparison, Earth's water coverage is about 3,000 meters.
. . .

Mars had more water, for it's size than Earth did, until eons of solar-wind broke down the water molecules.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #42 on: 20 January 2024, 16:01:52 »
You can simply converted the CO2 atmosphere to carbon / oxygen, then use K-F technology to gate the carbon to another location.

Umm... no?

If you built an entire KF drive in an atmosphere and intentionally forced it to do what it is objectively not designed to do, you might successfully move a bubble of that atmosphere (and the stuff within it) somewhere else at the cost of completely destroying that drive. Or the entire process might just fail entirely and completely wreck the drive without going anywhere.

Even if it works, you've spent a large sum of money and resources to create a non-reusable method to move things in the least effective way possible. Battletech doesn't have stargates and jump drive don't function properly in a gravity well, much less on the planet itself.
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worktroll

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #43 on: 20 January 2024, 16:55:19 »
Freezing or liquification then packaging. You've got planetary-scale automated industries at work in Aphrodite and Lowell, so building lots of gas buckets isn't a stretch.

I don't want to think about the strength & mass of a capsule designed to maintain liquid C02 under pressure, which then has to take the strain of a linacc launch. Dry ice forms at -78C, which doesn't need cryogenic cooling, and is comfortable under normal pressure, with a thermal blanket. Handily, something the size of a 40' shipping container could carry 100 tonnes of dry ice. The container is about 4 tons of steel. With 4.8x107 tonnes of atmosphere to move, reducing it by about 99%, that would only need about 1.2x107 tons of steel, all moving in excess of solar escape velocity.

Mega-engineering, indeed!
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SCC

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #44 on: 20 January 2024, 18:05:28 »
I don't want to think about the strength & mass of a capsule designed to maintain liquid C02 under pressure, which then has to take the strain of a linacc launch. Dry ice forms at -78C, which doesn't need cryogenic cooling, and is comfortable under normal pressure, with a thermal blanket. Handily, something the size of a 40' shipping container could carry 100 tonnes of dry ice. The container is about 4 tons of steel. With 4.8x107 tonnes of atmosphere to move, reducing it by about 99%, that would only need about 1.2x107 tons of steel, all moving in excess of solar escape velocity.

Mega-engineering, indeed!
Step 1 of terraforming Venus is to freeze the entire atmosphere, which only takes 70 years the sun shade is built

worktroll

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #45 on: 20 January 2024, 18:52:46 »
Not entirely sure how the surface cools in 70 years ... (invokes FASA fyzziks)
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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #46 on: 20 January 2024, 19:06:11 »
 :blank: Soooooo The Star League learned not to terraform, from any/ all example in the Sol System?
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #47 on: 20 January 2024, 19:06:37 »
Nah nah, it's simple. First you embed continent sized arrays of heat sinks able to survive the pre-terraforming atmosphere, all across the planet.

Then you install the sunshade and start ejecting the atmosphere. The dropping air pressure cools the atmosphere and pulls heat up from the crust through the billions of radiators.... re-heating the atmosphere?

Then you slowly land entire planet sized blocks of ice on Venus, and the equilibrium between the cold of the comets and the heat of the atmosphere settles somewhere around habitable?

(please note. This is almost certainly nonsense and I'm being silly)
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Prospernia

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #48 on: 20 January 2024, 21:18:17 »
:blank: Soooooo The Star League learned not to terraform, from any/ all example in the Sol System?

If you take the Battletech Universe Cannon, where, you can travel the stars and EVERY system has a habitable, Earth-like world, then, really, you don't need to.



Not entirely sure how the surface cools in 70 years ... (invokes FASA fyzziks)

If you removed or severely reduced the atmosphere, the surface would cool very quickly, especially on the night-side.

I suppose you can strip the atmosphere, reduce it to a hot-Mars, and eventually, though volcanic out-gassing, the atmosphere would rebuild itself faster than the solar-wind can strip it away.
« Last Edit: 20 January 2024, 21:20:29 by Prospernia »

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #49 on: 20 January 2024, 21:22:47 »
If you take the Battletech Universe Cannon, where, you can travel the stars and EVERY system has a habitable, Earth-like world, then, really, you don't need to.
Not every system, just the ones that are on the map.  There's plenty of star systems in between the listed ones that aren't habitable for whatever reason.
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Dayton3

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #50 on: 20 January 2024, 22:58:38 »
a) Mass drivers? How do you load gasses into what one would conventionally consider a mass driver (linear accelerator)?
b) Did the mass drivers accelerate the gas past planetary escape velocity, or solar escape velocity? If the first, then is there a "ring around the sun" of launched Venusian atmosphere?

I still prefer my head-canon of giant WarShip fusion engines ringing Venus' equator, pointed up at 45 degrees, with massive airscoops sucking in reaction mass. Unless one considers that a 'mass driver'.
[/quote

Even atmospheric gasses have "mass".

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #51 on: 21 January 2024, 08:35:23 »
Not every system, just the ones that are on the map.  There's plenty of star systems in between the listed ones that aren't habitable for whatever reason.
Even some of the ones on the map took a lot of work to get to habitability.
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cray

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #52 on: 21 January 2024, 08:44:20 »
Step 1 of terraforming Venus is to freeze the entire atmosphere, which only takes 70 years the sun shade is built

Simple one-dimensional models suggest about 200 years to cool off Venus's atmosphere, neglecting heat from the crust. Birch was at least good enough to cover the heat releases of phase transitions of the atmosphere. I haven't found other estimates detailed to that level.

Not every system, just the ones that are on the map.  There's plenty of star systems in between the listed ones that aren't habitable for whatever reason.

Yep. The Inner Sphere's map only shows habitable systems. A 1,000 light-year sphere of stars around Terra would have about 2,000,000 stars.

However, Prosperina has a point: Projects Lowell and Aphrodite became white elephants as soon as Project Deimos succeeded. It was a lot easier to settle extrasolar habitable planets than continue terraforming Venus and Mars. Only massive lobbying kept the terraforming industry alive until it found a use for itself among the stars.

Mars had more water, for it's size than Earth did, until eons of solar-wind broke down the water molecules.

As of 2022, estimates of archaic Mars' water coverage indicate that there was enough water to cover Mars to a depth of 300 meters, which equals 43,000,000 cubic kilometers of water. In comparison, Earth's 1,386,000,000 cubic kilometers of oceans would cover its surface to a depth of 2,700 meters. Hence, proportional to its size, modern Earth has 9x as much water as archaic Mars.

On an absolute basis, archaic Mars had 3% of modern Earth's free water volume.

:blank: Soooooo The Star League learned not to terraform, from any/ all example in the Sol System?

In fact, the Terran system's terraforming industry was a powerful lobby and was involved in modifying many of the "habitable" planets found in the Inner Sphere. The old House Sourcebooks show how ecologies were commonly edited on a huge scale, leaving less than 50% of native life in place on many planets. The Terran Hegemony used terraforming on numerous worlds within its cramped borders to buy domestic political peace, with results ranging from Riken Minor to New Dallas, Brownsville, and Inglesmond. However, none of those efforts were as extensive as Mars and Venus.

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Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Goose

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #53 on: 21 January 2024, 15:40:12 »
The Terran Hegemony used terraforming on numerous worlds within its cramped borders to buy domestic political peace …
I … don't think politicos move that slow?

Let me rephrase: That Slow.
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Prospernia

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #54 on: 21 January 2024, 17:20:18 »
So, we have Lowell and Aphrodite, but why not mention Dr. Bere Sakar's work on terraforming?  The Battletech-universe has a 1,000 years some more scientific-discoveries could be made.

. . .

As of 2022, estimates of archaic Mars' water coverage indicate that there was enough water to cover Mars to a depth of 300 meters, which equals 43,000,000 cubic kilometers of water. In comparison, Earth's 1,386,000,000 cubic kilometers of oceans would cover its surface to a depth of 2,700 meters. Hence, proportional to its size, modern Earth has 9x as much water as archaic Mars.

On an absolute basis, archaic Mars had 3% of modern Earth's free water volume.
. . .


And This one states 500 to 1,000 meters. And my original quote was from a book on Mars from the '90's or '00's.

cray

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #55 on: 23 January 2024, 19:35:47 »
So, we have Lowell and Aphrodite, but why not mention Dr. Bere Sakar's work on terraforming?

I didn't find a "Sakar" in canon* or Google. What book is Dr. Sakar in?

*Fact checker .pdf collection search.
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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

I am Belch II

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #56 on: 23 January 2024, 20:23:57 »
Making Venus a more nicer planet is a pretty big megaproject.
What other megaprojects were there before the fall of the Star League.
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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #57 on: 23 January 2024, 22:43:28 »
Making Venus a more nicer planet is a pretty big megaproject.
What other megaprojects were there before the fall of the Star League.

Lots, mostly terraforming. Storm inhibitors (whatever those are), sunshades, domed cities, etc. Castle Brians and the HPG network also probably count, even if they weren't administered by the Office of Mega-Engineering.
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Prospernia

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #58 on: 25 January 2024, 21:06:42 »
There's just one problem with terraforming-worlds is that, eventually, they get teraformed, and the Inner-Sphere, would be filling up with worlds on the map, but it hasn't, so, most likely, given the large number of surprisingly Earth-like worlds, terraforming is a long, lost and never pursued art.   Venus is just as it is today.


I didn't find a "Sakar" in canon* or Google. What book is Dr. Sakar in?

*Fact checker .pdf collection search.

Same category as Randell Stephens: we've got a thousand-years of future human-history to play around with.

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Re: Project Aphrodite
« Reply #59 on: 28 January 2024, 05:15:26 »
I also recall they somehow sped up Venus' spin which is basically impossible unless you happen to be somewhere pretty high up on the Kardashev scale, and this was done all before the Star League was a thing!
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