Author Topic: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit  (Read 2137 times)

idea weenie

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CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« on: 20 October 2023, 22:11:16 »
Question dealing with Heat Sinks installed in a Mech.

From Campaign Operations (corr 4th printing) p211 for both questions:
"Maintenance, Salvage, Repair & Customization" -> "Customization" -> "Field Refits" -> "Class B"

Class B Refit allows for:
"Engine-mounted heat sink changes of any kind.
Adding one or more components to a location where
something was removed in the same refit"

The statement seems to indicate that you can only change out engine-mounted Heat Sinks as part of Class B, but what about non-engine-mounted Heat Sinks?


Question: If a Mech has a Standard Heat Sink that is not mounted in the engine, would removing that Heat Sink and replacing with a Double Heat Sink be a Class B Refit?

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #1 on: 21 October 2023, 00:16:24 »
A heat sink would count as a "component" in that case, yes.
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idea weenie

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #2 on: 21 October 2023, 22:17:56 »
A heat sink would count as a "component" in that case, yes.

 :evil: Excellent  :evil:

Daryk

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #3 on: 22 October 2023, 07:45:30 »
The thing to remember is that by RAW, all the HS have the be the same kind, whether they're in the engine or not (Prototype DHS being the only exception I'm aware of, and they're also rare).

Moonsword

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #4 on: 27 October 2023, 13:29:23 »
This is a Grade D refit, not a Grade B, per page 188 of SO:

Class D Refit (Maintenance): ... Players may also change heat sink types (including those integral to an engine) or engine ratings ...

Daryk

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #5 on: 27 October 2023, 17:09:27 »
I believe the CO page 211 rules are more recent, and thus trump the OG StratOps rules in this case (emphasis mine):
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Class B: Changing a weapon’s facing within its original location. Engine-mounted heat sink changes of any kind...

Hellraiser

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #6 on: 27 October 2023, 19:49:49 »
I believe the CO page 211 rules are more recent, and thus trump the OG StratOps rules in this case (emphasis mine):
I believe you are correct, a lot of stuff got easier in the SO Errata that then got turned into CO.
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Sartris

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #7 on: 27 October 2023, 22:06:57 »
the heat sinks outside of the engine count like any other "remove and replace an item" in class B. the only extra consideration is making sure all the sinks are the same type.

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Daryk

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #8 on: 28 October 2023, 07:42:56 »
Except for Prototype DHS, right? ???

Sartris

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #9 on: 01 November 2023, 15:35:19 »
yes

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #10 on: 01 November 2023, 18:29:16 »
Thank you for the confirmation, good sir! :)

idea weenie

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #11 on: 02 November 2023, 22:17:31 »
I believe you are correct, a lot of stuff got easier in the SO Errata that then got turned into CO.
the heat sinks outside of the engine count like any other "remove and replace an item" in class B. the only extra consideration is making sure all the sinks are the same type.

So changing out the Heat Sinks from Single to Double would only count as a Class B Refit? (as long as all Heat Sinks at the end of the refit are the same)

Heat Sink Question then:
If a Mech only has partially completed the Heat Sink change-out, do the Heat Sinks of the 'other' type get turned off?

I.e. a Mech has 17 Standard Heat Sinks, and the Technicians have only managed to change out 8 of them into Double Heat Sinks before the Mech has to be put together due to a local raid.  Which of the following would happen:
- the 9 remaining Standard Heat Sinks get turned off?  (so the only cooling is from the 8 DHS)
- the 8 Double Heat Sinks get turned off?  (so the only cooling is from the 9 SHS)
- the Mech's Cooling Grid completely shuts down due to incompatible Heat Sinks
- something else

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #12 on: 03 November 2023, 06:45:53 »
I'd rule the heat sinks to not be completely installed yet, so you're stuck with your unconverted ones. 
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Sartris

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #13 on: 03 November 2023, 21:52:19 »
gut feeling: you're inconveniently being forced to violate the One Big Heat Sink Rule. none work.

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #14 on: 04 November 2023, 03:46:32 »
I think that's the way I'd go too...

idea weenie

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #15 on: 05 November 2023, 00:59:18 »
gut feeling: you're inconveniently being forced to violate the One Big Heat Sink Rule. none work.

So for changing from SHS to DHS, the various stages would be:
  • one or more of the existing SHS disconnected but maybe not replaced yet = use only the connected SHS as the cooling rate
  • at least one SHS remains connected = use number of connected SHS as the cooling rate
  • all SHS have been disconnected/removed, but not all the DHS have been finished installation/connection = use the number of connected DHS to determine the cooling rate (extra non-complete DHS only serve as crit padding)
  • all Heat Sinks have been converted to DHS = use the new design's cooling rate

I think that's the way I'd go too...

I'd figure that tech teams would changing over the cooling grid from the old to the new part-way through the refit.  The old Heat Sinks might still be present, but are no longer tied in (i.e. a SHS that is not tied in is effectively dead weight and a crit soak).

So for the 17 heat sinks where 9 are still SHS and 8 are DHS, the goal would be to shut down the SHS as fast as possible, and change the Mech over to using the DHS.  From there, remove and replace the remaining Heat Sinks.  The best would have been changing over at 6 DHS installed, so the 11-strong SHS are taken offline and the Mech now runs on the 6-strong DHS array.  Like this:

Installed - cooling grid in use (effective cooling)
4 DHS, 13 SHS - SHS only are used for cooling the Mech (13 pts of cooling)
5 DHS, 12 SHS - SHS only are used for cooling the Mech (12 pts of cooling)
6 DHS, 11 SHS - DHS only are used for cooling the Mech (12 pts of cooling)
7 DHS, 10 SHS - DHS only are used for cooling the Mech (14 pts of cooling)

I'd rule the heat sinks to not be completely installed yet, so you're stuck with your unconverted ones. 

I'm hoping the in-game techs will manage the change over to keep the cooling level optimized based on what is currently installed.  So technically the Mech can have the cooling grid changed over at any time (1 DHS active, 16 SHS inactive), but the techs (and players) will try to optimize when this changeover happens)

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #16 on: 05 November 2023, 06:29:13 »
OK, digging into the rules on page 211 of the current version of Campaign Operations:

"Each item involved in the refit, whether being added, moved or removed, requires exactly one instance of its standard replacement time (see pp. 205-207)."

The good news is page 205 says Heat Sinks are replaced "per location; treat Engine as 1 location".  The bad news is IS DHS don't fit in legs, so if you had any of your 17 SHS (for purposes of this example) there, they would have to move, and that kicks the refit up to Class C.  For simplicity's sake, we'll assume there are 12 SHS in the engine, 2 in one side torso, and 3 in the other.

Per page 205, you need to remove three locations worth of SHS, then install three locations worth of DHS.  A location of Heat Sinks takes 90 minutes (before the refit class multiplier, which is 3 for Class B), so 270 for each location, each time.  So the work could look like:

Remove SHS from one side torso (270 minutes)
Remove SHS from other side torso (270 minutes)
Remove SHS from the engine (270 minutes)
Install DHS in the engine (270 minutes)
Install DHS in one side torso (270 minutes)
Install DHS in other side torso (270 minutes)

Doing it that way would mean you'd get the DHS in the engine online in 18 hours (if you don't rush it), and the rest after a further 9.  If you try installing any DHS before removing all the SHS, I'd go with Sartris' suggestion, i.e., nothing works until you're in a condition where there's only one type of HS.

Rush jobs and throwing extra bodies at work are possible, but interact in not exactly the same way:

Up to two extra teams can be assigned to a particular unit, each one giving you a bonus of 1.  The extra teams can be no more than one experience level below the lead team.

Rushing halves the time required per experience level reduction of the lead team.  If you start with an Elite team, this translates to a 2 penalty for the first reduction (meaning throwing two additional teams at it will mean no penalty).  Reducing a second time is another 1 penalty, but means only a quarter of the time is necessary.  Reducing three times (the maximum) is another 2 penalty, but gets the time required down to 1/8th of the original.

The good news is that Heat Sink replacement is easy, with a target number reduced by 2, so your Elite team with two extra teams helping would succeed on a 4 or better in just under three and a half hours, or 34 minutes for each step.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #17 on: 05 November 2023, 06:40:56 »
Wouldn't having SHS in the legs only be considered a Class A modification, since you're removing them and not putting anything else back in its place?
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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #18 on: 05 November 2023, 06:44:51 »
Here's the rest of the paragraph on page 211:
Quote
Total all such times involved. Then determine the highest class of work being performed (F being the highest). The total is multiplied by the Time Multiplier on the Customization Table for that class.

idea weenie

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #19 on: 05 November 2023, 12:36:43 »
So if I have it straight:

1) If you are replacing SHS with DHS and the DHS can fit in the location, that is a Class B Refit

2) If you are having to install DHS into new locations as they do not fit the original locations (i.e. the leg example, or changing 7 SHS in a single side torso), that is a Class C Refit.

3) If you want to keep the Mech as online as possible you should change out all Heat Sinks in a single location at a time, and change over the cooling grid as soon as practical.  Essentially, this:
- Remove SHS from the engine (270 minutes)
- Install DHS in the engine (270 minutes)
- change over the cooling grid to use just the DHS (any SHS that are still present no longer contribute to the Mech Cooling, thus no violating "the One Big Heat Sink Rule: none work")
- Remove SHS from one side torso (270 minutes)
- Install DHS in one side torso (270 minutes)
- Remove SHS from other side torso (270 minutes)
- Install DHS in other side torso (270 minutes)
If there are at least two tech teams, work on the side torsos at the same time (remove then replace, if the new DHS can fit on a 1:1 replacement basis).

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #20 on: 05 November 2023, 13:45:55 »
That's not how extra Tech Teams work... they only give you a bonus to getting the work done.

You have 1 and 2 correct, but the original order of work I gave you is the RAW way to get the engine heat sinks online as fast as possible.

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Re: CO: non-engine Heat Sink Refit
« Reply #21 on: 05 November 2023, 15:04:53 »
So if I have it straight:

the situation you're describing is so incredibly niche that it probably wasn't considered. if there were a "right" answer, it would likely be in the rules as a special case. unless you ask in the rules forum, literally all of this is speculation and fan rules (which is what i encourage players to do in these very edge case situations)

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