Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech

[Escudero]

Was wondering what kind of market value gold might command throughout Inner Sphere eras.

Specifically the 3050s since my mercenary unit captured a sizeable sum of gold from some pirates we stopped from looting it from a mining operation in the periphery.

But other eras could be interesting as well.  Silver, platinum, and palladium are also interesting.  And what military applications might gold be used for, if any, in BattleTech? 

I thought to myself, perhaps gold would be cheaper since humanity by now has many more sources to mine it from (more planets, asteroids, etc.)  However, what role would the technological decline of the Succession Wars have had on the scarcity of it and other precious metals?  And then, if there are hundreds of billions or even trillions of people potentially demanding gold in all its applications (jewelry, dentistry, electronics, computing, medical, durability, etc) then maybe its worth more because population growth outstripped supply growth?

Made a few searches but haven't found much discussion of this.

[AlphaMirage]

I think it would be different based on whatever planet you were on. There is a c-bill to US$ conversion rate so I used that when I last used gold for my AU to pay off the Yakuza. That said I think gold would be used in the same variety of tasks, moving cargo interstellar is fairly pricy but for something like gold it might be worthwhile and a valid pirate target because of it.

[Alan Grant]

The Great Houses back their currencies on a range of reserves. Technically most are on the Germanium standard. But many also balance out that portfolio with various precious metals (such as gold) as well as other commodities. Some odder items also make the cut in some realms, like art or water (considered precious on desert planets).

For a source, I've consulted the various House Handbooks in their respective sections on their economies and currencies to write the above. Each is different, but there are some commonalities between them.

The realms all still do produce paper currencies and coins minted with various metals, gold being one of metals commonly used.

The value of currency aside, the value of gold as a commodity is going to be based more on planetary economics than the economics of the realm. What is the local supply/demand of gold like? Are there gold mines on that planet? It probably still does have industrial uses, but I'd say no more than what you see in the real world today.

The problem isn't the physical properties of gold. The problem is that since people perceive it to have value, it's pretty expensive, and so using it as a component in industrial uses jacks up the price of producing that item. So whenever possible, businesses use less expensive metals in their products. In the real world tiny amounts of gold are used in electronics, but if the manufacturer can find an alternative, they'd prefer to use that alternative.

The weight of gold is also prohibitive. Imagine trying to move tons of gold between planets on dropships. The heavier the object, the more dropship fuel you need, the greater the expense to transport. You probably need a lot of dropship fuel to carry even a relatively small amount (in tonnage) of gold.

So it has value, but probably not as much in the industrial (military or civilian) applications (who may need small amounts of it, unless they see a deal and want to stockpile the stuff). Gold of decent quality is more likely to be scooped up by jewelers, and perhaps the government itself, for use in minting coins.

The best bang for your buck is probably to find a company that makes jewelry. Assuming we are talking about gold in an unrefined or refined form (i.e. gold bars).

As for its actual value in C-Bills or something, no clue. I'm not sure if there's a chart out there that covers this. The closest I can find is the currencies. The House Handbooks show the various coinnage, composition and value. So for example 1 Marik Eagle coin, made of gold, is roughly 1-1 with the C-Bill (as of Handbook: House Marik set around 3066). The trouble is I don't know how much gold is in a M-Bill. I don't know the size of the coin, or if it's pure gold or mixed with other things (odds are, it's mixed with other things, 100% pure gold coins are historically rare ever since humans learned how to mix metals together to create coins and alloys). The coin minting process also raises the value, so the equal weight of refined gold in bar form is probably worth at least a little less than that M-Bill coin.

We also know that the more advanced worlds of the Inner Sphere tend to use digital payment systems. Physical paper and coin currencies are still in use, but probably see much more day-to-day use away from the centrally advanced worlds of the Inner Sphere.

So you might actually have the best luck in the periphery, or Inner Sphere worlds closer to the periphery, where advanced digital payment systems are scarcer.

But I really do think the value would drift tremendously from planet to planet. Planet with jewelers and industries of all stripes (so a high demand for raw commodities) and a Great House currency mint on-world? But few/no gold mines/refiners? Probably commands the highest value or price for gold.

[Lanceman]

The weight of gold is also prohibitive. Imagine trying to move tons of gold between planets on dropships. The heavier the object, the more dropship fuel you need, the greater the expense to transport. You probably need a lot of dropship fuel to carry even a relatively small amount (in tonnage) of gold.

I don't think this follows. Generally speaking, we don't tend to worry about volume within DropShips. I know this wouldn't be the case "in reality", but for the most part DropShips are read as cavernous, and can hold up to it's weight rating despite physical configuration. And when it comes down to it, volume wise, a ton of gold in modern standard bullion bars only takes up about the size of a standard pick-up truck bed, or a 100-ton cube is about the size of a adult male's height in width and height. So filling a Mammoth's 37,500 tons of cargo with gold isn't really any different than filling it with any other cargo, and outside the rare Behemoth that's pretty much the yardstick of bulk cargo in the Inner Sphere. So transport costs will be nominal. And if gold prices on a planet are even close to modern day, when adjusted to C-Bills it's an insane amount of money for a full load.

[Colt Ward]

To the OP . . . honestly, gold- especially after access to space- is sort of a human meme.  What you would be looking at in value would be strategic metals like titanium, uranium, magnesium, rhenium, and tungsten- the current top 5 I could find.  Germanium would fall on that list somewhere due to the nature of jumpship travel, I would also say whatever is primarily used in mech reactor shielding.  I would also suggest other fissionables would be valuable for power generation and construction.

You have two periods where this becomes a really big deal . . . the Jihad and Dark Ages, both for the same reason.  Since the fall of the Star League the C-bill has been the reserve currency of human space, and during both of those periods ComStar (or for FWL/CC the Word of Blake) had a severe loss of confidence that would have had the currency's value relative to House bills plummet (in fact, sidebar SOMEONE should have gotten very rich betting ComStar would survive the Jihad & return to previous status as a currency supplier) so that international agreements would have come up with other ways to trade.  It is absolutely acknowledged that as time went on after Gray Monday the c-bill lost value and mercs (as a representative of international trade) was taking payment in kind rather than H-bills and especially c-bills.  IE, they were paid in ammo & armor or the aforementioned strategic metals.

The closest that period had to a reserve currency would be the Fox Kerensky.  Going forward, I expect it will be the standard as communications is restored and some of the instability after the ilCan decision resolves.

[Frabby]

And yet, the one named treasure on the Jade Falcon VaultShips was gold…

[Colt Ward]

Because it is a human meme . . . sort of like the artificial value of diamonds b/c of De Beers manipulation, or whoever it was that convinced Americans bacon & eggs were 'the' breakfast.

[Cat]

Hmm, gold could just be a waste-product build-up that techs have to periodically scrape out of the ducts of all those fusion engines.

[five_corparty]

I think your bigger issue is, who has the money or the desire to buy all of it?  Sure, your character could sell it off bit by bit, but then you have to protect it.  But only companies that need a LOT of it, or a bank that wants a bullion backbone, etc., will want to scoop up the whole kit and kaboodle.  Otherwise, that much gold into an economy that does value it could be disruptive at best.

getting the money to a mint makes a lot of sense: they'll want it to either make money out of, or to secure and stockpile.

It ALSO makes a great mission/campaign: Get to the Mint!  :) :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Richard S.]

The short story in AGoAC does mention that gold has value in electronics, and comstar will trade it for c-bills.

[Lazarus Sinn]

I imagine gold would still be used extensively in the manufacture of electronics. Especially, CPUs and the contacts and connectors. I would find a planet that has electronic manufacturing facilities and make them a deal on the gold just below the local market value to get rid of it fast.

[idea weenie]

Hmm, gold could just be a waste-product build-up that techs have to periodically scrape out of the ducts of all those fusion engines.

How about a tech using carbon dioxide to test the magnetic confinement for a Dropship's fusion reactor, and having to throw away the junk diamonds that are formed during the process.  Of course if the liberated pure oxygen reacts with anything inside the Dropship's engine things might get interesting.


As to the OP, I think there was a few pages in one of the older Mechwarrior RPGs that listed C-Bill prices for various precious metals.  Wish I could remember which book it was in.

[butchbird]

Not an expert on the subject, but like some said gold is a big deal in electronics. the BTU might be a "low-tech" universe, but electronics still figure heavily in the background, surely gold would still be a pretty sought after metal in the 31st century.

A real world example to demonstrate the usefullness of gold, quote from wikipedia:
"It is estimated that 16% of the world's presently-accounted-for gold and 22% of the world's silver is contained in electronic technology in Japan."

[Colt Ward]

Gold, silver, platinum . . .

[Metallgewitter]

The question is how many of those precious metals are flying around in the IS? "There is gold in dem rocks" say the Belters and that is true. Asteroid mining is very common in the IS. Plus you have hundreds of planets where those metals can be found. Some planets like Sirius are basically mining outposts with a space port. And who knows if the electronics made in 3050 need as much precious metals as those made today. And of course it depends how good the availability is. If you have no one to transport said metals (or rarely a Ship comes by) you can probably sell Gold for a huge sum where it is really needed

[Ghaz]

And who knows if the electronics made in 3050 need as much precious metals as those made today.

That would be rendered moot by the sheer quantity of electronics needed by the Inner Sphere whose population is a wee bit bigger than what the Earth's population is today  ;)

[Metallgewitter]

That would be rendered moot by the sheer quantity of electronics needed by the Inner Sphere whose population is a wee bit bigger than what the Earth's population is today  ;)

Fair point. then again we also have way more planets that can contain precious metals. Which always made me wonder how come that planets that have been discovered hundreds of years ago still have metals to mine when the economy of the IS has such a voracious appetite?

[idea weenie]

Fair point. then again we also have way more planets that can contain precious metals. Which always made me wonder how come that planets that have been discovered hundreds of years ago still have metals to mine when the economy of the IS has such a voracious appetite?

I wonder how much recycling is possible with BT's fusion technology?  I.e. melting the civilian goods, and whatever melts first is captured in the first chamber, whatever melts at a higher temperature is captured in a second chamber, etc.  Anything that doesn't melt in the final chamber is sent somewhere else for tungsten recycling.

[Ghaz]

Fair point. then again we also have way more planets that can contain precious metals. Which always made me wonder how come that planets that have been discovered hundreds of years ago still have metals to mine when the economy of the IS has such a voracious appetite?

Some of those planets may have already been mined out, while some may have been mineral poor or mining may have been unfeasible.  Not all planets will have the same make-up as Earth.

[Richard S.]

With most planets having a population only in the millions, even mineral rich planets probably have far less mining going on than on our earth, even with mechanical help.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Because it is a human meme . . . sort of like the artificial value of diamonds b/c of De Beers manipulation, or whoever it was that convinced Americans bacon & eggs were 'the' breakfast.

That would be the American pork industry in the early 20th Century.  They had a huge ad campaign on the idea that a hearty breakfast of bacon and eggs was vital for anyone who was going to do a hard day's work.  That's also where "breakfast is the most important meal of the day" comes from.

[Vehrec]

One metal that might be much, MUCH less expensive is silver.  Germanium ores are rare, but ores that happen to contain germanium are much less so.  The primary ores that contain germanium are primarily associated with lead (do not live near a germanium mine, the tailings pile will be leeching heavy metals all over) but also tin, copper, trace amounts of iron, absurdly tiny fractions of coal...and silver.

Argyrodite, is the mineral in question here.  It naturally contains one germanium atom per eight silver and six sulfur.  It is mostly silver sulfide, with a small but highly desired fraction of germanium.  Thus, we can be sure that any mines of this stuff will also produce and flood the market with about eight times the amount of germanium they produce.  And since Germanium's primary industrial use is jump-ships, which use tens of thousands of tons of it per jumpship, any production of this ore will kill the price of silver.

[Colt Ward]

That would be the American pork industry in the early 20th Century.  They had a huge ad campaign on the idea that a hearty breakfast of bacon and eggs was vital for anyone who was going to do a hard day's work.  That's also where "breakfast is the most important meal of the day" comes from.

I thought it was a guy who worked for the egg lobby.  I remember his name usually- except in this case where I want to, I cannot.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm sure that the egg lobby was in on it, but the sources I saw claimed the pork lobby was the driving force.

[CVB]

Both, plus the Bavarian Illuminati and the Gnomes of Zurich  ;)

[Ghaz]

I'm sure that the egg lobby was in on it, but the sources I saw claimed the pork lobby was the driving force.

http://www.americantable.org/2012/07/how-bacon-and-eggs-became-the-american-breakfast/

[pokefan548]

Let's not forget that the Colby's Commandos trilogy (Golden Rule, Eyestorm, and Dragon's Den) is all about mercs fighting over gold. By memory, I don't think an exact value is stated, but it's enough that a rich gold vein motivates the Commandos to keep fighting to the death. A single bar is also apparently worth enough to buy a JumpShip ticket flying luxury class, and still have a nice chunk of change left over to start life on another planet.
Sweetwater: "Are you sure we're doing this for the right reason?"
Haggard: "Gold, Sweets! 24 karat! Isn't that a good enough reason?"

[AlphaMirage]

Let's not forget that the Colby's Commandos trilogy (Golden Rule, Eyestorm, and Dragon's Den) is all about mercs fighting over gold. By memory, I don't think an exact value is stated, but it's enough that a rich gold vein motivates the Commandos to keep fighting to the death. A single bar is also apparently worth enough to buy a JumpShip ticket flying luxury class, and still have a nice chunk of change left over to start life on another planet.
Sweetwater: "Are you sure we're doing this for the right reason?"
Haggard: "Gold, Sweets! 24 karat! Isn't that a good enough reason?"

By my calculations 14Kg of gold (the standard bar is 12 BTW) is worth about 250,000 K-Bills (or ~167k c-bills) which is basically what it takes to run a Monarch luxury dropship for a week. By my spreadsheet a ticket on such a dropship costs around 4.4k c-bills, so yeah that tracks.

[Knightmare]

And since Germanium's primary industrial use is jump-ships, which use tens of thousands of tons of it per jumpship, any production of this ore will kill the price of silver.

Makes you wonder where all that extra silver goes? Wouldn't be surprised if it's threaded into the material composition of some of BT's other WunderProducts? Silver or Gold might just be the special ingredient in one or more of the Ferro-armors, or that whatchamacallit widget that controls part of the K-F boom. Why not?

BT production and supply chains seem to be very concentrated, single-point setups, so I wouldn't be surprised if a germanium mine also had secondary industries & manufacturing nearby to take advantage of byproduct metals. 

That said, it's time to bring in a ringer. Where the hell is cray when you need him? Cray, we need you to make up a reason why Gold, Silver, etc. are worth so much in BT? BUT your rationale has to satisfy the setting, continuity, and FASAnomics while staying believable in our fictional stompy robot setting.  ;)

[Ghaz]

Like gold, silver has multiple applications from electronics, medicine and other uses.