Author Topic: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech  (Read 8800 times)

Deathrider6

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #30 on: 13 September 2022, 01:13:49 »
Germanium is an established currency base due to the use in K-F Drive cores. Water is another. As stated earlier, Gold/silver and platinum have value in electronics and other industries. Loot,loot, loot makes the boys shoot,shoot,shoot.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #31 on: 13 September 2022, 10:11:55 »
The value established for metals and minerals on Earth is due to a handful of factors- primarily scarcity, transportation/ease of access, and uses.

Part of the reason I said the 'value' of gold is a meme is because . . . well, it is.  Old world cultures were what placed value on gold, but it was ignored for some of the new world cultures simply b/c it lacked any use or in some cases scarcity.  IIRC the Californian Indians could care less about the shiny rocks in the creeks but loved the steel tools.  The scarcity of other things at times placed them at a higher value- when Iron started to be refined by the Hittites or glass was crafted from slagged sand.  The processes were barely understood and getting any sort of usable material was very labor intensive.  But it has had value, so it has perceived value going forward- sort of like bacon & eggs being a proper breakfast in the US.  Or like the de Beers cartel making engagement synonymous with a diamond ring and creating a monopoly on diamonds that artificially keeps their value inflated (90% inflated?).

IIRC one of the sub-saharan African cultures/empires had salt as a currency because it could preserve food- which meant preserve the labor in creating food.  They were not the only ones to trade for salt, but the most prominent as an example.  Silk, spices, tea, alcohol, citrus, furs, oils, and many other natural products were all things that were traded at one point for the value but they had to be transported . . . the same with gold.  FREX, during the California Gold Rush a dozen eggs cost (for inflation) over $90!  Steak cost even more . . . during the various gold rushes, it was the people supplying food, tools, and other supplies that made the most because the scarcity of those items in part due to the influx of people outstripping the local infrastructure.

But you get out in space?  Where the rubble of planets is floating around to pick over?  Suddenly metals & minerals that might have been difficult to reach are on the 'surface' of floating rocks.  Once you can mine floating rocks, it gets down to actual scarcity in content percentages and actual industrial uses.  Titanium, Molybdenum, Tungsten, Magnesium, Rhenium, and other materials will be more accessible as well as being more 'pure' than can be found on a planet with a atmosphere.  FREX, Molybdenum is not found naturally- I assume they are talking about on Earth b/c no one has prospected space yet- w/o oxidation so that it requires quite a bit of effort to separate from the compounds it is naturally found in. 

Honestly, this is why BT has remote mining operations/settlements out in the periphery or on marginal worlds- moving ingots around in a gravity well is not cost prohibitive, and getting the power to run smelters is also easy.  Thus pirates raiding mining sites makes sense, they can steal pure ingots and maybe find spare parts from among the MiningMechs on site along with explosives for home made rockets- win, win, win!
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Vehrec

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #32 on: 15 September 2022, 08:02:55 »
Germanium is an established currency base due to the use in K-F Drive cores. Water is another. As stated earlier, Gold/silver and platinum have value in electronics and other industries. Loot,loot, loot makes the boys shoot,shoot,shoot.

Actually, this really grinds my gears.  You expect me to believe that Germanium is so valuable for jump-ship construction that people go to stupid lengths to mine it, sure I can believe that.  But do you really think that it's still valuable in bricks in a vault, more valuable than the actual jump-ships you can make from it??  The whole 'Terran Hegemony kept Germanium in Fort Knox' thing is just stupid.  You know what is a better use for Germanium than securing a currency??  ANYTHING ELSE!!  The best use for a rare metal is not always to just make giant piles of it and sit on them as the 'foundation of currency' and the notion that it is ever a good idea to do so is fundamentally a goldbug-y idea.  Maybe this makes sense to someone who worries about what to use for money after an apocalypse and says that gold will never lose it's value, but those people aren't thinking very clearly.

Water is also a terrible commodity to base your currency on, because it's so cheap, heavy and bulky.  Do you want to water your crops with stolen water?  Well one Acre-foot is 500 tons or so, so you're gonna need to steal a LOT of water.  Or maybe you want water for industrial uses?  That might be hundreds of cubic meters per end-user.

But all commodity money, even the C-bill, is fundamentally distorting to economies.  It warps your economy towards acquiring more of whatever money is and can provoke inflation if you suddenly develop new ways to make it, or deflation in the much more common sense of 'there is no more of this but our economy is still growing.'  The only true unit of currency that I respect is the unbacked post-Star League, Star League Dollar.  The unit of currency for people who know the star league fell, but listen, they know how much a dollar is worth so they're just gonna keep them in circulation for the next 300 years.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #33 on: 15 September 2022, 09:13:54 »
Maybe this makes sense to someone who worries about what to use for money after an apocalypse and says that gold will never lose it's value, but those people aren't thinking very clearly.

Which is a hilarious conception when you read the stories about Brits occasionally finding Roman era caches of coins, cups and other 'valuable' gold/gem objects that were buried to hide/protect them until their economy stabilized and things turned around . . . you know 1500+ years ago.
Colt Ward
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #34 on: 15 September 2022, 09:48:28 »
Actually, this really grinds my gears.  You expect me to believe that Germanium is so valuable for jump-ship construction that people go to stupid lengths to mine it, sure I can believe that.  But do you really think that it's still valuable in bricks in a vault, more valuable than the actual jump-ships you can make from it??  The whole 'Terran Hegemony kept Germanium in Fort Knox' thing is just stupid.  You know what is a better use for Germanium than securing a currency??  ANYTHING ELSE!!  The best use for a rare metal is not always to just make giant piles of it and sit on them as the 'foundation of currency' and the notion that it is ever a good idea to do so is fundamentally a goldbug-y idea.  Maybe this makes sense to someone who worries about what to use for money after an apocalypse and says that gold will never lose it's value, but those people aren't thinking very clearly.

Water is also a terrible commodity to base your currency on, because it's so cheap, heavy and bulky.  Do you want to water your crops with stolen water?  Well one Acre-foot is 500 tons or so, so you're gonna need to steal a LOT of water.  Or maybe you want water for industrial uses?  That might be hundreds of cubic meters per end-user.

But all commodity money, even the C-bill, is fundamentally distorting to economies.  It warps your economy towards acquiring more of whatever money is and can provoke inflation if you suddenly develop new ways to make it, or deflation in the much more common sense of 'there is no more of this but our economy is still growing.'  The only true unit of currency that I respect is the unbacked post-Star League, Star League Dollar.  The unit of currency for people who know the star league fell, but listen, they know how much a dollar is worth so they're just gonna keep them in circulation for the next 300 years.

It's still better than Dragonlance's use of steel as its economic base.  And the Star League liked to flaunt its wealth: having so much Germanium that it could stockpile some instead of devoting 100% to ship construction is a major flex.
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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #35 on: 15 September 2022, 19:40:04 »
Actually, this really grinds my gears.  You expect me to believe that Germanium is so valuable for jump-ship construction that people go to stupid lengths to mine it, sure I can believe that.

I mean, what else are you gonna go raiding for in 3025 during a gaming session in 1984? (Don't answer that.)

Fasanomics is a rabbit hole of handwavium ya just gotta accept as a component of the game setting. For better or worse, the established value of germanium, gold, silver, etc., gives us something to fight over besides, tech, weapons, the list goes on...because let's face it, we all know the Inner Sphere should be a post-scarcity universe by resource accessibility and technology alone. And quibbling over "precious" metals would be a non-starter.

But how much fun would that be? Meh. Bring on the GOLD. I'll bring the 'Mechs.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #36 on: 15 September 2022, 20:50:41 »
 A post-scarcity economic system wouldn't fit with a semi-feudal society.
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Vehrec

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #37 on: 16 September 2022, 22:20:25 »
I mean, what else are you gonna go raiding for in 3025 during a gaming session in 1984? (Don't answer that.)

Fasanomics is a rabbit hole of handwavium ya just gotta accept as a component of the game setting. For better or worse, the established value of germanium, gold, silver, etc., gives us something to fight over besides, tech, weapons, the list goes on...because let's face it, we all know the Inner Sphere should be a post-scarcity universe by resource accessibility and technology alone. And quibbling over "precious" metals would be a non-starter.

But how much fun would that be? Meh. Bring on the GOLD. I'll bring the 'Mechs.
I'd rather raid for literally anything else.  Food, computer chips, robot servants, entangled Q-bits needed for HPG maintenance... Just please, not gold, and not Germanium to use as a big pile that you kiss each night before you tuck it into bed.

And I don't think the Inner Sphere should be post-scarcity anything, though the idea that you can 3D print a mech with an irreplaceable star-league printer like we're playing Lancer would be an interesting AU
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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #38 on: 16 September 2022, 22:32:00 »
I just said should (probs should'a underlined it the first time) given BT's level of technology, spread, and population numbers. It's the same way the physical setting could support much larger armies (a totally different discussion).

I'd rather raid for literally anything else.  Food, computer chips, robot servants, entangled Q-bits needed for HPG maintenance... Just please, not gold, and not Germanium to use as a big pile that you kiss each night before you tuck it into bed.

You're not wrong, and I just had a weird Smaug/BT mashup rip through my head with your last bit. 

There are dozens of other wealth-generating options to raid for, but that's kinda the point, right? Diversity of options. So precious metals still make the list. Plus, and this is really just a silly thing, you could also acknowledge, however hokey, that the worth of precious metals easily identifies as something of value. Hence their inclusion.

Best part? Use whichever and whatever at your gaming table.
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Look, dude, when you are a real mechwarrior you don't need to get all dressed up in cooling suits and cool helmets to work on your mech. You just strip down to your 1980s panties and crop top vest and start wrenchin' it.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #39 on: 16 September 2022, 23:39:29 »
Since precious metals are already a unit of trade, it makes them much easier to unload for whatever it is you want than a cargo hold full of stolen computer parts or food.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #40 on: 17 September 2022, 00:02:35 »
What is going to be the most valuable things mercs could take trade in besides fiat money?  Precious/strategic metal ingots (high purity), spices, alcohol & liquor, low volume luxury goods, and 'in kind' pay of parts, ammo, and supplies (Yeah, we will want two pallets of individual rations- and NOT left overs from the Second Succession War).
Colt Ward
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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #41 on: 17 September 2022, 05:35:40 »
FM: 3145 in the Mercs section points out that in that era with the collapse of the C-Bill, some units had begun using ammunition as currency. But as a side effect it triggered inflation and a run on the market and ammo became a lot more scarce.

Going back to the OP a bit, which referenced the 3050s era. The big thing was advanced (level 2) Tech equipment or Clan Tech (whether they used it themselves, or traded it for Inner Sphere advanced tech or sold it). Merc units typically had less advanced tech than House units, and upgrading was expensive, in some cases putting merc units heavily into debt to upgrade their machines or replace old machines with new models. The FM: Mercs / Mercs Revised books point out that salvage rights became a bigger negotiating point in merc contracts post-Clan Invasion because of this issue.

From 3050-3060 there was a lot of purchasing power in advanced tech. That can be weapons, Level 2 armor or 'mech skeletal structure, C3 computers, CASE, and to my mind very notably XL engines (just because of how expensive they are). That was also the era that a lot of specialty ammo became available, like Semi-Guided LRMs. That would probably fetch a good price at places far from the manufacturer.

As an example, in 3057 Smithson's Chinese Bandits was forced to turn away almost 100 mechwarriors after being defeated in combat. The unit had just received a bunch of field upgrade kits and XL engines as part of their contract payment, and they split that equipment among those laid off mechwarriors. Per FM: Mercs they did this to help ensure each would find another merc unit willing to take them in.

It speaks volumes that several merc units in this era negotiated contracts with employers where the employer agreed to provide advanced tech, rather than simply focusing on maximizing C-Bills earnings. In a few recorded instances, a Successor Lord would grant a particularly loyal merc unit (or one they want to retain) some upgrade kits for free or at low cost as a kind of reward or incentive.

So if we're talking 3050-3060, I'd treat Level 2 or Clan tech equipment components as particularly juicy for trade or sell.

It's made all the juicier because most merc units that get their hands on that stuff, tend to just add it to their own unit. So a unit that's willing to sell/trade it away is going to fetch an excellent price.
« Last Edit: 17 September 2022, 06:06:32 by Alan Grant »

Hawkeye Jim

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #42 on: 19 September 2022, 15:47:50 »
Seems to me the best use of a gold stash for mercenaries would be to trade a bar now and then at a local jewelers to keep a steady flow of expense money coming in.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #43 on: 19 September 2022, 18:33:49 »
As dense as gold is, they'd probably ant to convert it into C-Bills quickly rather than having it take up cargo space long-term.
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idea weenie

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #44 on: 20 September 2022, 13:37:20 »
As dense as gold is, they'd probably ant to convert it into C-Bills quickly rather than having it take up cargo space long-term.

Current price of gold today is ~$50 per gram.  Assuming C-Bills are 1 per $5, that is 10 C-Bills per gram, 10,000 C-Bills per kilogram, and 10 million C-Bills per ton.

So leaving one ton of ammo or a single Medium Laser behind lets you carry enough gold to purchase a decent 3025-era Assault Mech, or a 3050-era Medium Mech. You just have to find a place that is willing to sell a Mech for a ton of gold instead of robbing you.

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #45 on: 20 September 2022, 18:51:01 »
That's the other part of this. The same characteristics that made it an appealing target..... make it an appealing target.


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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #46 on: 21 September 2022, 12:22:42 »
http://www.americantable.org/2012/07/how-bacon-and-eggs-became-the-american-breakfast/
it was actually pretty common before that. after all bacon, being cured and smoked, travelled well before the advent of refrigeration, and was fairly easy to make without complex hardware. (same for Ham really, but bacon was less bulky) and getting eggs just requires having some Chickens, which were fairly common and didn't require lots of fancy care to raise. thus they became a staple for people living in rural areas and on the frontiers. usually alongside some simple grain based item like griddlecakes, porridge, or grits.

that PR push a century ago though is just what turned it into the breakfast meme we have today.

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #47 on: 29 September 2022, 22:07:57 »
I know of ONE PLANET that has Gold so much, ferrum ( Iron ) is rare. Of course, getting it all back might prove impossible...

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #48 on: 05 October 2022, 19:05:50 »

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #49 on: 05 October 2022, 19:18:18 »
There will be a commiserate demand increase however and we don't know how widespread asteroid mining is in the setting. Several worlds mention it, Al'Nair I believe being the most prominent with the Taurians being also mentioned at times, but it might not be as big a deal as it should be as you can use serfs to mine gold at a lower political risk to yourself. I'd expect independent spacers might be allowed to do it through licenses with the Imperial authority but we also don't know 'who' owns the asteroids in a system because it might not be the planetary nobles.

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #50 on: 05 October 2022, 19:57:19 »
This is an interesting thread!  I "rewarded" my Double Deuce with a few tons of gold, some of which still had the Canopian Central Bank's stamp from the Reunification War era.  We're still hammering out how to resolve that conundrum...  ^-^

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #51 on: 05 October 2022, 20:02:15 »
Actually, "hammering" might help with your problem  ;D
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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #52 on: 05 October 2022, 20:05:14 »
Heh... the guy who originally stole the gold got MOST of it converted to unstamped bars...  ^-^

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #53 on: 05 October 2022, 20:36:22 »
This is an interesting thread!  I "rewarded" my Double Deuce with a few tons of gold, some of which still had the Canopian Central Bank's stamp from the Reunification War era.  We're still hammering out how to resolve that conundrum...  ^-^

Get some iron sheets welded together to make molds, and heat those molds up to 1200 Celsius (gold melts at 1064 Celsius, Iron melts at 1538C).  Any symbols in the gold will melt away, but the contaminants/isotopes in the gold are another matter.  Maybe set up the iron molds vertically so the gold is in a 'tall' rather than 'wide' mold, put those molds in a centrifuge setup, and give them a spin.  As long as you keep the gold nice and molten the contaminants should either settle at the bottom or float to the top, and the molds let to cool.  Cut off the tops and bottoms of the gold ingots, trim off the outside of the ingots, and you should have bars that have much lower contaminants/isotopes to identify their source.

Repeat this process with the original bars until all you have are endcap and side trimmings, then put those parts through the same melting/spinning.  Repeat as you feel necessary, removing the purified gold each time.

From there you have a lump of gold with lots of contaminants/evidence.  Time for an RPG mission to deliver that lump to a gold refinery to dispose of the evidence.

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #54 on: 06 October 2022, 03:11:34 »
The "reward" did in fact come with a crucible...  ^-^

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #55 on: 06 October 2022, 16:18:32 »
I am sorely disappointed that mercs raiding for gold just got brought up and no one thought to mention Kelly's Heroes.

I mean, I thought it was a obligatory mercenario scenario when you invade a world.  I KNOW they already wrote a short fiction on a great train robbery stealing Capellan & Fed Suns currency.
Colt Ward
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #56 on: 06 October 2022, 17:17:50 »
So we need a story about the last days of the Jihad, as Coalition forces push towards Terra, a rag-tag group of misfits inadvertently winds up finding intel on the location of a hidden cache of WoB gold?
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Colt Ward

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #57 on: 06 October 2022, 18:52:29 »
4SW as the Capellan resistance is collapsing . . . it comes down to, do you want to stage it across 1 world or multiple worlds?

But yeah . . . now I am going to have to go look at cliff notes for the plot . . .

You know what unit screams for this?  Ghost Regiments counterattacking in the War of 3039.
Colt Ward
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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #58 on: 06 October 2022, 19:13:17 »
Yeah, I did that too... that scenario is in my Glenmora Planetary Militia thread...  8)

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Re: Value of Gold and other precious metals in BattleTech
« Reply #59 on: 06 October 2022, 21:29:58 »
What mech does Oddball pilot?
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