Author Topic: What If? the Fortress really acted like one with large scale sallies?  (Read 6972 times)

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10502
Re: What If? the Fortress really acted like one with large scale sallies?
« Reply #90 on: 27 September 2023, 11:56:03 »
Cost would be a big issue as you probably could build many more Leopard CV's and add there squadrons for the cost of a single Mule PWS. And there are a ton of dropships to convert if you have the facility's. But the big issue is how best to use these to raid outside the Republics walls. Do you want a few hard hitting PWS's or large numbers of CV's with literally thousands of tons of aerospace fighters?

scaling applies here-with sufficiently good information, you don't need maximum force on every operation, there are any number of good reasons to send a Leopard, or even a converted Scout (i forget the name), mostly to targets or regions where you don't actually need to make a BIG impact, or where the response is going to be in some way disproportional (too little, or drawing in radical amounts to leave some other target vulnerable).

for you 'mech types, such situations can be equivalent to using a bug 'mech instead of a fast heavy-because the fast heavy is overkill for the job, or because you intend to use it somewhere more critical, but need the distraction.

one of the major flaws from the FC3062 game, was how readily players threw monster battleships in monster numbers at unimportant targets because there was no factor preventing it...while I stymied at least one of those by scattering fractional-point value units into empty hexes they had to cross.  This actually stopped the in-game Star adders from finishing off a thirteen world section of the Lyran Commonwealth for a turn, because his vast fleet of leviathans had to stop and eliminate my collection of cheap jumpships one at a time.

in logic, the reason would work out to needing to prevent a fleet-in-being from disrupting his supply lines on his invasion, and he didn't REALLY know how many ships i had (i kicked ass on the intel roll) the point being that in terms of fiction, the knowledge tehre IS a raiding fleet, and it IS behind your line of advance, changes how you can or should run your offensive.  It slows things down, forces efforts to locate or protect against it, changes the tempo and can potentially shift who has the initiative on the strategic level...

even if their fleet is 'on paper' significantly weaker.  An in-canon example would be the Taurian Navy's fight against the Davions in the malagrotta affair, and what it took for the Davions (with Star League and Terran Hegemony help) to end that threat.

Naval in space is strategy and psychology.  If you can work the enemy's nerves you can force him into sub-optimal positions whether over-distributed to try and 'catch' the raiders, or over-concentrated into convoys that move too slowly for the advance...while leaving his own position under, or not, defended.

The central theme of naval raiding isn't territory claim the way it is with ground warfare, it's about disruption, distraction, and positioning, influencing the battlefield and influencing outcomes by working the other side's nerves and creating openings.

For that kind of work, the only important feature is for your units to be actively doing it, so a broad distribution of mediocre units actually can be significantly better for the purpose, than a tight concentration of powerful ones.  If your opponent can only patrol x number of systems, have a raiding force that can strike X+1 number of systems-he either must leave something undefended (which offers you opportunities to strike something vital) or he must reduce his coverage.  (you can't fractionalize a McKenna, it can only protect one location of a system at a time.)

your main focus here, is to force him to deal with a threat along his supply line, because assets devoted to that, aren't supporting the offensive.
« Last Edit: 27 September 2023, 11:58:11 by Cannonshop »
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

idea weenie

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4884
Re: What If? the Fortress really acted like one with large scale sallies?
« Reply #91 on: 27 September 2023, 21:31:02 »
Cost would be a big issue as you probably could build many more Leopard CV's and add there squadrons for the cost of a single Mule PWS. And there are a ton of dropships to convert if you have the facility's. But the big issue is how best to use these to raid outside the Republics walls. Do you want a few hard hitting PWS's or large numbers of CV's with literally thousands of tons of aerospace fighters?

I was thinking more along the lines of using the limited number of Dropship collars efficiently.  A Leopard CV and an Overlord CV both use up one collar, but the Overlord CV is likely going to have aerospace superiority.  And both of them only need a single Scout Jumpship to transport.

The Wobbly Guy

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 331
Re: What If? the Fortress really acted like one with large scale sallies?
« Reply #92 on: 28 September 2023, 00:37:58 »
Replenishment rates matter too. It's probably easier to replace or deploy a Leopard CV than a larger DS. Fighters, for this reason, are almost infinitely replenishable compared to dropships.

As CS said, the point is to deploy in enough systems to make the opponent guess. Guess right, and you don't lose much. Guess wrong, he gets clobbered. With the shield that is the Wall, it's a really strong strategy. The problem is when your raiders run into traps - can they clean out their databases quickly enough to prevent the Wall-bypass data from falling into enemy hands?

IMO, the bottleneck isn't dropships - it's jumpships. Are there enough enough JS to transport the dropships for raids, regardless of their types?

tassa_kay

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Karianna Schmitt has no time for your headcanon.
    • My Facebook page!
Re: What If? the Fortress really acted like one with large scale sallies?
« Reply #93 on: 28 September 2023, 00:50:59 »
Are there enough enough JS to transport the dropships for raids, regardless of their types?

And I feel like one has to take into account having to keep the Fortress running when answering this very valid question.
"Social media made y'all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it." - Mike Tyson

My Personal Units: Thuggee Warrior House Nagah (Capellan Confederation), 29th Blood Drinkers (Clan Blood Spirit), Nightmare Galaxy (Clan Hell's Horses), 1st Raven Rook Cluster (Raven Alliance)
Favorite Factions: Capellan Confederation • Clan Blood Spirit • Clan Smoke Jaguar • Clan Hell's Horses • Raven Alliance • Fronc Reaches • Rim Worlds Republic • Magistracy of Canopus
Favorite Characters: Malvina Hazen • Kali Liao • Katherine Steiner-Davion • Anastasia Kerensky • Danai Liao-Centrella • Karianna Schmitt • Lady Death • Tara Campbell • Katana Tormark
Favorite Units: The Golden Ordun • Wolf Hunters • 1st Horde Cluster • 1st Rasalhague Bears • Thuggee Warrior Houses • Hikage • Raptor Keshik • Kara's Scorchers • 1st Star Sentinels

Metallgewitter

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1572
Re: What If? the Fortress really acted like one with large scale sallies?
« Reply #94 on: 28 September 2023, 06:30:49 »
And I feel like one has to take into account having to keep the Fortress running when answering this very valid question.

The interesting bit is we never really had an idea how many times others tried to breach the wall. Era report 3145 only mentions 2 specific ones but also states that ships that were sent in returned as husks. We also know that during the Shattered fortress book the Capellans launched one invasion and later send a recon unit and both were wiped out. If for example the neighbours start the waiting game you have at least at first an element of suprise and perhaps also more time as the wall runs without stress. If it is really like that that one KF battery equals one jump attempt then I would expect that the early years "ate" into the reserves the Republic had

Metallgewitter

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1572
Re: What If? the Fortress really acted like one with large scale sallies?
« Reply #95 on: 28 September 2023, 06:31:14 »
double, sorry for that

Church14

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1113
Re: What If? the Fortress really acted like one with large scale sallies?
« Reply #96 on: 28 September 2023, 08:49:19 »
IMO, the bottleneck isn't dropships - it's jumpships. Are there enough enough JS to transport the dropships for raids, regardless of their types?

And I feel like one has to take into account having to keep the Fortress running when answering this very valid question.

This is kind of a handwavium question where the answer was “the wall must fall.” The wall was ‘running out,’ but near the end the RotS was able to send out First and Second army groups. Together, those were a little under 6 full RCTs worth of troops. That’s enough jumpships for 27 regiments of mechs and tanks, and another 20 some of infantry. This doesn’t include the number of jump ships needed to return the units that fought and retreated back to Terra.

It either means nobody looked to hard at what really made sense or that the number of jumpships Stone was willing to go down under was still a really substantial number.

Stormlion1

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 15232
  • Apparently Im a rare survivor of the 1st!
Re: What If? the Fortress really acted like one with large scale sallies?
« Reply #97 on: 28 September 2023, 09:23:10 »
Terra may have had a number of out of commission jumpships that they started out with before they ever reached there active jumpship fleet. If nothing else the Terran system should have tons of wrecked ones about.
I don't set an example for others. I make examples of them.

VensersRevenge

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 839
  • Is this the real life...
Re: What If? the Fortress really acted like one with large scale sallies?
« Reply #98 on: 28 September 2023, 15:26:15 »
Jumpship numbers are even more plot dependent then anything else in Battletech
...Is this just fantasy?
Warship Arms Race III
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=84031.0

Metallgewitter

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1572
Had a thought in regards to the use of the fortress: let#s say we use it ina lsightly different way. When ERUPTIO hits the Combine the walls were deactivated. But what if say the neighbours start their first invasion wave (a couple of regiments / clusters) and you immediately reactivate the wall again? Now your opponent is trapped within the walls (no hope of supplies and any second waves get burned to a crisp) while you have the numerical advantage to cripple the vanguard. Of course the downside would be that the enemy has the possibility to loose the wall should someone find the generators that keeps a part running. This of course also assumes that you can pinpoint where the invaders strike first and then catch them there

idea weenie

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4884
Re: What If? the Fortress really acted like one with large scale sallies?
« Reply #100 on: 13 October 2023, 19:16:44 »
Had a thought in regards to the use of the fortress: let#s say we use it ina lsightly different way. When ERUPTIO hits the Combine the walls were deactivated. But what if say the neighbours start their first invasion wave (a couple of regiments / clusters) and you immediately reactivate the wall again? Now your opponent is trapped within the walls (no hope of supplies and any second waves get burned to a crisp) while you have the numerical advantage to cripple the vanguard. Of course the downside would be that the enemy has the possibility to loose the wall should someone find the generators that keeps a part running. This of course also assumes that you can pinpoint where the invaders strike first and then catch them there

The key would be to reactivate The Wall as the attacker fleet is arriving, not after.  This way the arriving Jumpships get returned to sender and all the forces on board are 'ruined'.  You only have the lead force to deal with.  The attacker won't send in the full fleet after the first Jumpships start returning so you won't get them all, but several of the Jumpships are ruined and the opponent will have to be very careful with their next attack.