FC Naval Command Decision

[Minemech]

 The Federated Commonwealth avoided turbulence when a hairbrained scheme by Katherine backfired at a young age. It is now 3063 and you are involved in the decision-making process of the navy and have been tasked to determine how to handle the issue of the Fox Corvette. She is a brick, but is armed with popguns, lacks combat thrust, and seems an overly expensive Jolly Rogers. Worse, she drains resources by demanding the production of the Overlord A-3. The consensus is that whatever happens, it will likely either remain a light warship or a transport Jumpship of some variety. The Overlord A-3 will also likely remain in production. How would you handle this?

 At this time the Free Worlds League navy is strong, and the Invading Clans have formed a united naval command, similar to the homeworld defense fleet to counterbalance the growing Inner Sphere threat. Furthermore, the Combine finally learned how to make Battleships work and Theodore is growing distant due to internal politics.

 Regardless of your choice, those ships active in service will remain so.

[AlphaMirage]

I think the option is to replace it with the Durendal Destroyer that was presently in the design step. The Fox is okay for an assault transport but it really needs some heavier weapons and the Avalon needs a partner with some heavy guns although its a pretty decent Warship. An Avalon Cruiser with Durendal Destroyers optimized for massed NPPC fire against Clan Warships would make an effective combo.

[Alan Grant]

The scenario you laid out, to me, is a LOT less about what to do with the Foxes, and more about the question of "Where are we going to get some battleships or battlecruisers? Because we're going to need them...." (as you count up all the Clan and Combine heavy cruisers/battlecruisers/battleships that are out there now)

From your description the Clans are preparing for the possibility of mass warship engagements, and even just a star of the Jade Falcon/Wolf Black Lions with a Texas in the lead will be devastating, and the Combine's new battleships are a problem also.

The F-C would be forced to find their own. Whether that's the Mjolnir or something else. That's priority 1.

No Destroyer, original Fox, upgraded Fox or replacement destroyer, can really overcome that problem. The F-C still needs a viable destroyer to have a balanced naval force that can fill a variety of missions. But getting a battleship or battlecruiser online, and getting about 4-12 of them built is far more important, and the F-C is very behind on that.

If it helped to move toward that goal, I might even temporarily suspend other naval production until this goal is met.

There's lots of fluff in canon books that say what the Inner Sphere dreaded was the thought that the Clans might mass their fleets and use them a lot more. There are sentiments and acknowledgements in canon sources that if this happened, the Clans would be virtually unstoppable in space. Followed by a lot of hope and prayer that the Clans just keep doing what they are doing and hold warships back as more akin to support assets.

Whether you meant to or not. The scenario you laid out is the absolute worst case naval scenario (and also the best-case scenario for how/why the F-C would suddenly and dramatically start pumping out some kind of battlecruiser/battleship)

[AlphaMirage]

I think we do need to take a good look at what the Clan Warships are capable of. Their crews and Commanders (except the Snow Ravens) are not well-drilled in Warship to Warship engagements because the Clans do see them as the Touman's interstellar FOBs. They might be called battlecruisers or the like but these are the SLDF designs with most of their mass in cargo capacity to support SLDF ground operations; without enough point defense, fighter cover, or armoring, all of those were meant to be provided by escorting carriers. Dangerous yes, but almost all of the Clans lack the strategic acumen to use them to the fullest due to ignorance. The threat was that a Snow Raven might rise to the ilKhanship and then direct the Clan's Naval Reserves and Toumans more effectively from a position of strength but the Snow Ravens fortunately didn't have that ambition.

Not all Clan Warships are Leviathans, all you need is some directed long range NPPC fire or a swift gunship to control the range and cripple a Warship, one that the Clans would likely struggle to replace while your yards are buzzing along. Meanwhile the Avalon handles incoming fighters and dropships with its missiles while occasionally sending out a few nukes. This is I think where the Durendal was meant to go with the Mjolnir originally occupying a patrol cruiser role like the Dart before it bulked up and became a battlecruiser. An Avalon is a tough Warship that can handle many others by saturating their point defense with missiles and causing critical damage, plus it will be fighting on its 'home' turf with aerospace and PWS support.

[Alan Grant]

The F-C doesn't have a lot of experience with warship-on-warship engagements either. So the idea that maybe the Clans are less than 100% fails to take into account that the current generation of F-C warship crews are practically amateurs. If the F-C were seasoned naval warfare experts I could see your point in a comparative light. From what I can tell, they are not.

I also feel like you are arguing that because Clans tends to relegate warships to support vessels (transport, command and control etc.), that they must not be very good. I'd argue that that the canon evidence tells us they are actually generally very good. However, I'd argue what's holding them back is doctrine, military culture and Clan norms. Not skill.

When we do see the Clans engage, like the McKenna-class Werewolf at Tharkad during the FedCom Civil War, it cripples the Yggdrasil. Seemed quite competent to me.

I think you are underselling the skill of the Clan warship crews. When the Jihad rolls around, and the Clan fleets get involved in the drive on Terra, the skill of their warship crews is commented on by many Spheroid leaders and admirals throughout the final Jihad era books. Particularly as they got closer toward Terra and in the final operations to take the Terran system from the Blakists. The Clan warship crews are talked up as being very skilled and very capable.

Here's a good one, after the fighting at the Titan Yards, (Jihad Hot Spots: Terra). Beresick is being interviewed by a reporter and says "These Clan crews are the finest naval crews I've ever had the pleasure to serve with and fight alongside."

The force he's referencing does indeed include some Snow Ravens, but also a lot of Bear, Falcon and one Wolf warship.

Also, yes, I know all of them aren't leviathans. But enough of them are that it's a problem. Especially if, as the original poster suggests, the Clans have concentrated their fleets into one fleet command. Amassing a few Black Lions/Camerons/Texas escorted by some destroyers and Aegis Cruisers, into 2-3 separate fleets attacking separate worlds within Lyran space at the same time is well within their combined capabilities.

The Jihad really is the best representation of what this threat looks like when allowed to demonstrate their full potential. Look at the Clan fleets and what they do during the Jihad. Look at how effective they are once they've decided to fully invoke their naval strength and combine their resources. Now imagine that happens in the 3060s and the target is the F-C. More specifically, as a F-C planner, you are probably thinking about things like defending key worlds such as Tharkad, Hesperus and so on, from a Clan massed naval onslaught.

That's the actual scale of the threat the original poster presents. If you are a F-C naval planner you respect what that threat represents and plan accordingly. You kinda have to plan for the worst case scenario. The original poster presents this as a "Command decision". So as a commanding admiral or Great House Leader at this time, do you plan for the worst or just hope for the best?

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I've made my case and I'm not going to argue the point further. It was mostly written for the original poster to address their question since I checked the "Other" option in the survey.

[AlphaMirage]

No that's fair Grant.

I think the Great Refusal in 3060 was probably a catalyst for a lot of strategic planning in the Clans so they might have been better prepared for Spheroid Warships and adjusted accordingly. The loss of the Nova Cats also probably caused them quite a bit of angst in that theater. During the initial invasion there probably might have been slack planning as they did anticipate rolling over the Inner Sphere so didn't need to bring their A-game.

Now the FCF can drill and gain the experience to become as good as the FWLM and approach Clan levels if they have time. I think the problem is that they don't really have time to develop a doctrine if there is to be a Jihad era showdown so you have to go with what you've got which is to switch over Fox production to a proper Space Warship that can complement the Avalon and all you have in the pipeline is the Durendal. Either that or order Impavidos for the Lyran Defensive Fleet from Tamarind or Kirishimas/Tatsumakis from the DCA by leveraging Theodore's appreciation for Victor (and probable marriage to Omiko despite what the Draconis March thinks).

Although now I kinda want to change my answer to 'Other' in that an 2SLDFleet (or even just FCF/DCA/Nova Cat joint force) that is well-drilled, competently led, and coherent would be the only thing that could prevent a Clan Warship Armada from rolling through FedCom or Combine space. It would make for an interesting potential threat to the FWL Fleet that could lead to some interesting and tense situations if Atreus didn't want to get on board. That said the Fox still has to go in order to make space for a more evolved design or be replaced by the Kyushu if the Joint Fleet is going to be a real threat in that domain.

Imagine the Yamato Battleships actually getting built and fighting alongside Mjolrnirs against the Bears and Falcons. That would be interesting. Might make for a good AU if Katherine is quietly carted away to an Abbey or Asylum (or just taken by Khan Ward the first time and become a Wolf that didn't return). It would also give some pause for the Snow Ravens if they do move into the Outworlds Alliance as they have powerful Fleets nearby.

[Hellraiser]

I voted to "Upgrade the Fox" because its a solid ship but isn't very "Optimized".

I've posted a "Fox Block-II" in design threads before but it comes down to the following.

The Fox suffers from weapon choices/placements so that is my primary focus.

Swap 10* NAC-10 for 8* NAC-20   (2Ea, For/aft Sides)
Swap 4* MGs for AMS
Swap 8* Barracuda to AR10's  (Nose/Rear)

Upgrade ImpFerro to FerroCarbide

Any small amount of saved tonnage goes into Cargo & Heatsinks.

Relatively small changes for a bit of optimization & trying to get back a bit of cargo.


Now, that said,  in my ideal world, the Durendal program wouldn't have been scrapped, the FC wouldn't split, the Mjolnir would have evolved as it did anyway so we have our Battleship sized vessel & the Avalon would get a similar "Block-II" refit program as the Fox did to just correct some of the flawed weapon choices & placements w/o creating an entirely new ship.
Eventually the Mjolnir would get a Block-II that gave it LFBs too.

My only real debate is how I'd design the Durendal, in some customs I've made it a Davion-II (York/Riga) type vessel, while in others its a cross between the Fox & Avalon w/ lots of Collars to continue to support the transport needs of the nation, a Warship version of the Monolith basically.
I can see the benefits of both routes.

[Hellraiser]

I think you are underselling the skill of the Clan warship crews. When the Jihad rolls around, and the Clan fleets get involved in the drive on Terra, the skill of their warship crews is commented on by many Spheroid leaders and admirals throughout the final Jihad era books. Particularly as they got closer toward Terra and in the final operations to take the Terran system from the Blakists. The Clan warship crews are talked up as being very skilled and very capable. 

Completely agree, just look at the few Naval Stars that get "Skill" ratings in the FM Series, tons of them are Elite.

[Hellraiser]

Per the canon fluff,  I know the Mjolnir shipyard was originally a Fox shipyard that got upgraded.
IIRC this might also be the case for the Avalon.

They started out by upgrading yards as Fox construction & once they did some runs, they upgraded the existing yards for bigger ships & then built added yards to keep Fox production going, or something like that.

In a long term plan for the FC, I would probably do a bit more of that.

The Fox was produced at 2-4? total worlds at one point or another across the FC.

Avalon & Mjolnir are just 1 each IIRC.

I'd probably get those spread around to be 2 each, for 1 per half of the nation.

And then bring on Durendal production in the FS half at least since you have 3x the # of worlds w/ shipyards.

Not counting the "Light-Mjolnir" plans that we've never seen and just guessing that the Durendal would be some sort of Davion-II + Monolith crossbreed (faster baby Dart) given how many collars the other FC ships have.......... the FC taskforces could have been truly massive if they ever ramped up production to a level that allowed them to be deployed en-masse.

Even if you leave off the Foxes as "Army Escorts" and just organized "Naval" Squadrons as something like  Mjolnir + Avalon + 2* Durendal, your looking at 20+ Dropships w/o a single LFB-JS being counted yet & we know the FC used those per doctrine in the FMs.
Big ole gunship tank, taskforce fuel ship (Cap Missile Nuker), and some screen ships, supported by an Aero Fighter Brigade, yeah, that is at least going to make a clan taskforce pause for a moment (or DC or FWL).

The FC had a solid (if not optimized) set up of starting ships that showed the potential for mass production in the Fox that no other ship class has had since the SL era.
I'd have loved to see that continue to "ramp up" the way a lot of the other nations seemed to continue to do (looking at you FWL)

[Cannonshop]

The real trick here, is "What do you want the navy to do?"

That is, "what constitutes a 'Flag officer' on a combat vessel?"

The FedCom, most Clans, etc. use 'mechwarriors or fighter pilots as command officers on deep-space vessels.  It isn't hard to rate someone who knows not to open both doors on the airlock while in deep space 'elite' when that's your baseline.

For the most part, (and this is almost, but not quite universal) the viewpoint of Warships is a combination 'Large Transport' that also does orbital bombardments, often placed in the hands of someone who craves 'glory' to the extent they're willing to try to drive that large transport INTO the hull of another ship. (Not just the feddies, the fiction and source materials show this is popular enough to make bad jokes about it.)

So your first 'ask' is 'What is it for? why is this better than another line of dropships?'

Wall-of-battle could certainly benefit from heavier throw weight, but how often are you expecting to fight fleet engagements?  How often are you expecting peer or near-peer forces to fight in formation?  How often are you expecting to be engaging alone? or only with your parasite (dropship) assets?  How good is your fighter doctrine? can you replace the pilots at a rapid rate? can you train pilots fast enough to make up losses?

How fast can you turn out sister ships or escorts? or bigger ships TO escort? this isn't just ships, it's crews as well.

my point is, Navies are strategic assets with tactical elements, but their primary aspect, is that they are instruments of strategy and power projection, and that the Navy you can build and support is worth a thousand Yamatos or Musashi's or Bismarcks, even if it's all corvettes and destroyers.

That is, presuming you're going to devote the resources and time to develop not only your current serving officers, but their replacemenets as well.

that, in turn, goes back to what you are actually intending your navy to do-what role in your national policy you need a Navy for, that you can't get from a transport command and expanded fighter wings.

The basic Fox is a very good combat transport, it fit the desire for an armed chaperone for landing craft that could execute point bombardments and provide covering fire while acting as a planet-scale command post for invasion forces.

IOW it's actually quite 'fit' for that role.  Vessels like the Avalon are much more expensive and not quite as fit for that role. (See: FSS Lucien Davion or the entry on Palmyra in sarna.)

It's only 'undergunned' in comparison with ships many times larger that aren't designed to fill the same role, it's only slow compared to ships of its size that are also, not particularly as good at transport.

Keep in mind, you don't want to drag your transported ground troops around at 1.5 or higher gee for long, or you're going to have a passenger bay full of medical patients before they can discharge excess energy into the target you want them discharging it into.  High sustained gee doesn't make supermen, it makes patients for long-term medical care.

[Daryk]

That's pretty much why I voted for a Corvette line... you can build a lot more of them, train a LOT more spacers and eventually build some heavier ships when you need them.  That's probably more of a "mixed" strategy, but the Corvette line is the first step.

[Cannonshop]

That's pretty much why I voted for a Corvette line... you can build a lot more of them, train a LOT more spacers and eventually build some heavier ships when you need them.  That's probably more of a "mixed" strategy, but the Corvette line is the first step.

My point though, has to do with that training.  If all your corvette navy is doing, is escorting ground troops to the drop zone, then that's all the navy you can realistically field-no matter how big or small you built it.  It's a matter of where you're developing your competencies.

things like deep space interception take work to make happen-more work, than most canon navies are willing to put into it and with good reason-the Ground Arm is the axis of decision in Battletech.  Even the Snow Ravens acknowledged this firmly enough that they didn't spend those decades working up naval officer doing pure-naval tasks, but mothballed their fleet and focused on their ground game.

Realistically, there isn't a canon navy that should be rating higher than 'regular' with the majority being some shade of 'green' by the 32nd century, assuming an objective standard of rating based on the Age of War or SLN era.

There's only so far you can go with simulations and static establishment theoretical exercise-and most of them haven't been doing that much, never mind building up practical understanding in real-world scenarios.

with one single exception: carrying ground troops to drop zones.

 this shouldn't merely inform what's a consistent strategic choice, but also what defines 'green, veteran, regular' and 'elite' in terms of skill level.  The practical experience in things like 'field maintenance', or habits like watching the sensor boards, or the gut understanding of why the pressure doors need to be kept closed when not in immediate use, aren't likely to be common for anyone.  never mind grasping tactical interception, duration cruise conditions, how to manage flight operations from the deck while under way, or how far you actually need to extend your formation to have adequate sensor coverage in a patrol.

because those aren't things that are as immediately emphasized by anybody over 'keep it steady 1 gee to the target so the soldiers arrive fit to fight'.

because that's what's important according to the practices of every single faction that has warships in the setting.

Navies are expensive.  You thought your LCT with the new-production Munchtek was expensive? that's literally below a fraction of pocket-change compared to developing a Navy that is good for something other than stroking some egoes in High Command and making nice 'national/factional day' parade footage.

a battlemech or fusion tank can be parked in a climate controlled room for centuries, the door opened up and a farmer's kid who maybe played with an agromech can be shoved into the seat and you've got a fighting force.  It doesn't even need to be fueled.

If you try that with a space ship and you'll discover concepts like "The fuel evaporated fifty years ago and the seals are rotten, it's not going anywhere."

Because ships are maintenance intensive items.  Mothballing them involves a lot of preservation techniques including removing volatiles and sealing off/shutting down and dismounting equipment that is wear-sensitive, time sensitive, fragile, vulnerable, or expensive.

Skill, is a PERSON function, having the Navy in the mothball does not confer that skill once you reactivate it.  It's a mix of education, and experience, and nobody has the experience to go with the education.

This gets amplified by the type and quality of persons likely to be sent to 'haul the trash'.  Especially with a nation like the FedSuns, CapCon, Draconis Combine, Lyrans, or Free Worlds League (or most of the Clans). 

Simply put, the emphasis is going to be on 'will follow orders and obey' rather than 'knows what to do and when to do it with a lot of emphasis on initiative'.  (See: Palmyra again, the Lucien Davion's loss was the predictable result of having someone loyal and obedient, but not particularly intelligent, commanding a major national asset.  This is the NORM, not the exception. Ground Commanders absolutely DO NOT want their hyperexpensive taxi hauling off out of quick radio range.)

Hyper-political factions (Snow Raven, Draconis Combine, FWL) are likely to ALSO emphasize this bad habit and de-emphasize command initiative, even if their stated doctrines enshrine it as golden, because in hyperpoliticized environments, the necessary level of trust to foster initiative and internal communications doesn't exist.  There was an interesting set of studies by the Pentagon on this in relation to the performance of otherwise well-equipped armies in the middle east that happen to also be very politicized.

The result is a hampered inability to react when a plan decided by the command authority goes sideways.   This is bad for armies, it's fatal to navies.  The ability to take initiative and act on immediate information (even incomplete information) is a survival skill in any hostile environment whether it's polar ice fields, deserts, oceans, or deep space. (or close orbit).

The inability to grasp when to take initiative, when to select and how to pick fights, and when to retreat, is demonstrated by the ROTS Naval Arm in "Hour of the Wolf"-they stuck to a frankly irrational plan, and were destroyed outright because they lacked the ability to think, operate, or take the initiative.  Where a professional navy might even have retreated to retain the ability to operate as a fleet-in-being and pose a continued threat, they permitted themselves to be outright destroyed in the (frankly) stupidest manner possible.

This is not unusual in Battletech's environment. The best armies in Battletech are little more than Hosts or Hordes, mostly cashing on hardware instead of the soft factors that are why a professional force armed with spears and bows can take down amatuers with machine guns.

A functional navy has no place for the dominant mindset in the BTU (among ALL the factions).  That dominant mindset, however, is going to decide what your Navy is going to be like on an organizational and functional level.  There's no equivalent in Battletech to Admiral Yi, and likely there will be none.

[Minemech]

 Just a quick correction, the Free Worlds League expects and achieves exceptional command initiative from all levels of its officers. In fact, this has led its military forces to have extraordinary adaptability. It also overdecorates them with pomp.

[Cannonshop]

Just a quick correction, the Free Worlds League expects and achieves exceptional command initiative from all levels of its officers. In fact, this has led its military forces to have extraordinary adaptability. It also overdecorates them with extraordinary pomp.

Initiative is a critical factor in winning both battles and campaigns, yet the FWL underperforms in both on a fairly regular basis, even against otherwise inferior opposition.  as I said, there's the official line, and then, there's what people actually do.

This can usually be sussed by looking at performance in the field.

[Minemech]

Initiative is a critical factor in winning both battles and campaigns, yet the FWL underperforms in both on a fairly regular basis, even against otherwise inferior opposition.  as I said, there's the official line, and then, there's what people actually do.

This can usually be sussed by looking at performance in the field.

Where did you find the implication that the League Militia or navy underperform on the initiative? I do not see it.

[Cannonshop]

Where did you find the implication that the League Militia or navy underperform on the initiative? I do not see it.

Ask yourself this: How did a non-state actor take control of nearly the entire FWL fleet?

Why has the FWL consistently lost worlds to a nation that trains better officers for the mercenary market, their national rivals, everyone, that is, except themselves?

When your two major borders are the CapCon (crippled by top-down organization and economically hampred) and the Lyrans (who tend to train great officers for people who are NOT Lyrans, while keeping the worst they can turn out)?

In the first instance, nobody bothered to ask what those cannisters were or why they were being brought aboard. Nobody took  the initiative to question it.

in the second case, Initiative isn't merely acting, it's knowning WHEN to act, and what to do.  In intensely politicized environments (and you can't tell me the FWL doesn't qualify there) the typical reaction is to withold information and keep your head down, while sabotaging anyone who looks like his success is going to impact yours.
 
Nearly every modern military claims to prize initiative, but there's a significant difference between what's on the letterhead, nd what's in the actions.

[Minemech]

 The largest factor in the League underperforming in the 2nd Succession War was a man named Lombard. He is a rarity in League history. Aside from that you had the Home Defense Act tying down precious troops. Both are long dead. During the 3rd the Dragoons did a number on the League, but the Dragoons also held off the entire Davion front forces of the DCMS, and you are not going to tell me those were losers.

[Minemech]

Ask yourself this: How did a non-state actor take control of nearly the entire FWL fleet?

The fake Thomas was literally running things from behind unbeknownst to the fake Thomas. He only began to understand the extent of which late. As to why marines did not matter, who knows.

Why has the FWL consistently lost worlds to a nation that trains better officers for the mercenary market, their national rivals, everyone, that is, except themselves?

That is more of a Steiner issue. To clarify, Steiner actually has some of the best officers in the Inner Sphere, but the social generals are the talk of town.

When your two major borders are the CapCon (crippled by top-down organization and economically hampred) and the Lyrans (who tend to train great officers for people who are NOT Lyrans, while keeping the worst they can turn out)?

The Free Worlds League actually broke the CCAF during the First. The work of Lombard successfully hamstrung the FWLM during and after the Comstar War, and may qualify him near the top of the hubristic politicians chart of Battletech.

[Minemech]

 On things that matter not rooted in the free resources explaining the states out of their bias, I voted for the Monolith. The Star Lord is very Free Worlds League (technically generic, but...), so it was bypassed. With the destroyer line already in development, I assumed that there would be a minimum of 2 production lines for it already (We all make assumptions, they are not invalid but should be listed). Monoliths are ideal support ships because they can carry necessary support ships in bulk, whilst being comparatively cheap when weighed against even the Fox. Whilst a Monolith cannot engage in orbital bombardment, it is an excellent transport that can cannibalize one cargo ship to feed the rest of the force. Taskforce command was never a serious reason to choose a Fox as other ships can do it fine without being warships.

 I did consider the Raider/Corvette options quite seriously. Fleet reconnaissance for the FedCom stinks on ice, which is intensified by the fact that the most secretive assets in Battletech are aerospace in nature. The FedCom's horrible habit for low cargo capacity would undermine such a ship (Inazuma aside). It would also need a minimum thrust curve of 4/6 to be credible and would likely have at most 3 collars (More likely 1-2). The Fox was a misclassified transport--this is not bad.

 The Transport choice is valid.

 The Destroyer option is certainly not a bad one as the FedCom needs troopers that are vastly more consequential than the Fox. All of the above listed options are valid choices, it is simply a matter of coming to the better one. The wrong choice could spiral in many directions including creating a security dilemma which is my fear with choosing the destroyer.

 Something a poster mentioned was that it might be possible to bribe the League into purchasing Impavidos, this is true, but you will need something of value to the League. Any actor can be bribed. It would be drastically more difficult to purchase items like the Eagle and certainly the Zechetinu which contain highly classified items. This is why the Excalibur was such a big deal. A bulk of jumpships would not be enough since the League is fine in that regard, nor would trade routes. You could intentionally design a new warship with plans to trade it for an upgraded version of the Impavido which would benefit both states if planned correctly.

[Hellraiser]

Realistically, there isn't a canon navy that should be rating higher than 'regular' with the majority being some shade of 'green' by the 32nd century, assuming an objective standard of rating based on the Age of War or SLN era.

I was thinking about experience, as in a lifetime of it, & how Alain Beresick was touted as being one of/the best naval commander in the IS or clans.
IS sure, but clans?
Meanwhile AB, as noted upthread, gave great praise to the clan crews as being the best he'd ever seen.
These seem to be the opposite of each other & then it hit me.
C* crews can leave service, ETS so to speak, they, transition, or at least they can.
Alain was a lifer & had been researching naval strategies for his entire career.
Clan Crews on the other hand are mostly techs that are the epitome of "lifers" since they live in the caste system.
The Commanders/Warriors might come & go testing up/down, but the "techs/crews" of those vessels probably have a LOT of time doing those jobs.
Clan crews probably are quite good while Alain was himself had a good grasp on "Naval Warship Tactics".

Nearly every modern military claims to prize initiative, but there's a significant difference between what's on the letterhead, nd what's in the actions.

Interesting point, "Initiative" is praised right up until you "risk assets", and then your "reckless".

[Cannonshop]

I was thinking about experience, as in a lifetime of it, & how Alain Beresick was touted as being one of/the best naval commander in the IS or clans.
IS sure, but clans?
Meanwhile AB, as noted upthread, gave great praise to the clan crews as being the best he'd ever seen.
These seem to be the opposite of each other & then it hit me.
C* crews can leave service, ETS so to speak, they, transition, or at least they can.
Alain was a lifer & had been researching naval strategies for his entire career.
Clan Crews on the other hand are mostly techs that are the epitome of "lifers" since they live in the caste system.
The Commanders/Warriors might come & go testing up/down, but the "techs/crews" of those vessels probably have a LOT of time doing those jobs.
Clan crews probably are quite good while Alain was himself had a good grasp on "Naval Warship Tactics".

Interesting point, "Initiative" is praised right up until you "risk assets", and then your "reckless".

I'd say he had a grasp of "The Book".  likewise, think about the Clan trial system and really think it through.  The odds are stronger that most 'warship trials' are non-fleet actions, done in a simulator, why??

Because merely OPERATING a warship is expensive as hell-that's without going into combat, or having to repair combat damage.  Just keeping the lights on.  In  a system as intentionally crippled as the Clan economy, there's no time to build up the base experience.

I'm talking sheer quantity of resources and consumables here, as in not the c-bill cost, but the sheer tonnage and how much economic slack you have to have to fill that tonnage.

Not when you can outfit and train and trial an entire Galaxy's worth of troops for what it takes to keep a light to medium warship operating (in terms food, water, medicine, fuel, spare parts...) never mind what it costs to support it in actual combat.

even limited duels.  the cost to repair a crippled Fredasa could outfit more than a cluster of 'mechs just in armor plate alone-and that's if the engagement doesn't reach internal structure.

again, it's "How many warship crews have you seen, Alain? how many of them with more than a few months to a couple years?"

The base of experience is shallow.

A mediocre crew from 2590 might look like gods of war to an ELITE crew in 3059, they might even grasp ideas like 'Damage control' and 'repairs in the field' or even "repairs under fire", or other basic things absent from the modern paradigm because the idea that damage control is everyone's business isn't really there with eithr Caste based societies, or Feudal hierarchies-and that's who your officer class is being drawn from.

In the canon, the pieces are all in front of us, to include the parity between IS fighter pilots who didn't have Clantech or special breeding programs and yet matched the FIELD PERFORMANCE of Clan aeropilots-because the latter spent most of their expensive education waiting for the 'mechwarriors to decide to include them.  Warships are going to be even worse in that regard.

Hence warships devolving from instruments of strategy that control spacelanes, to a big bus that is occasionally used for shore bombardment because at least the planet can't run away.

[Hellraiser]

I don't disagree that IS Warship crews "at first glance" seem to lack experience since ZERO Warships were around a decade before the Jihad.

That said, I do think your forgetting something.

NONE of those Warship crews were actually green nubes fresh out of basic.
Somewhere in the fluff I've seen it written that all the early Warship Crews were made up of combinations of Dropship & Jumpship crews.

I don't have FM:FWL in front of me, but I have a vague memory of one of the FW Corvette captains being a "Veteran Avenger" captain from the FW Assault DS Navy group.

Essentially the best of DS & JS crews got moved to WS since they each had 1/3 of the "XP recipe".
For lack of a good definition the Recipe as I see it is (Thrust Based Maneuver Combat / IE DS,  KF Drive / IE JS,  & then Combo/Size/NavalGuns training to put it all together)

They got OTJ training as actual WS school classes were created, some eventually got those, as backfill training & eventually new graduates of DS/JS schools could then get WS training.  But from what I recall a lot of it was OTJ/basic classes training for the veterans of the house navies that already had plenty of time as either KF-JumpShip or Assault DS groups.

The green nubes were then backfilling in for all those JS/DS crews that were half gutted to fill out the first WS crews.

It wasn't ideal to be sure, but I think your example of not knowing what Damage Control is, is a bit off, since they had people coming from combat DS branches.

[Cannonshop]

I don't disagree that IS Warship crews "at first glance" seem to lack experience since ZERO Warships were around a decade before the Jihad.

That said, I do think your forgetting something.

NONE of those Warship crews were actually green nubes fresh out of basic.
Somewhere in the fluff I've seen it written that all the early Warship Crews were made up of combinations of Dropship & Jumpship crews.

I don't have FM:FWL in front of me, but I have a vague memory of one of the FW Corvette captains being a "Veteran Avenger" captain from the FW Assault DS Navy group.

Essentially the best of DS & JS crews got moved to WS since they each had 1/3 of the "XP recipe".
For lack of a good definition the Recipe as I see it is (Thrust Based Maneuver Combat / IE DS,  KF Drive / IE JS,  & then Combo/Size/NavalGuns training to put it all together)

They got OTJ training as actual WS school classes were created, some eventually got those, as backfill training & eventually new graduates of DS/JS schools could then get WS training.  But from what I recall a lot of it was OTJ/basic classes training for the veterans of the house navies that already had plenty of time as either KF-JumpShip or Assault DS groups.

The green nubes were then backfilling in for all those JS/DS crews that were half gutted to fill out the first WS crews.

It wasn't ideal to be sure, but I think your example of not knowing what Damage Control is, is a bit off, since they had people coming from combat DS branches.

Branches, that don't do damage control, and can't do some of the basics of damage mitigation, because they primarily exist to move soldiers from the jump point, to the surface, and you can't keep ground pounders wrapped in pressure suits so that you don't have your shipboard atmosphere transmitting fires and shockwaves.

Some dumb jackass always forgets a critical piece of gear, and it's questionable if there's even a suit available that a 'mechwarrior can WEAR in their cockpit.

Not with the standard being booty shorts and a cooling vest...and that is the guy who's going to have the command authority to dictate your environmental settings, and your thrust curve on approach-because he's not strapped into an accel couch wearing a flight suit...and neither are his troopers, who likely left something unsecured.

trip and fall at three gees and you're likely to need an ambulance if not the morgue van from broken bones and internal bleeding.  Means dropships do a lot of their flight time not exceeding one gee, and not maneuvering too hard.

Jumpships top out at .01 gee to .1 gee for the really sporty models.  "Maneuvering" means in a few hours you can get turned around and maybe do a soft-dock.  These being INNER SPHERE jumpship crew, being "Shot at" is rare enough they'll need special classes and maybe counseling after the first time it happens to them...assuming they survive.  (the whole "Jumpships are sacrosanct" thing for centuries would tend to build LOTS of bad habits and assumptions. bake them right into the base psychology.)

The number of bad habits that will get you killed in a warship multiplies here, including the bad habit of not everyone understanding that hits do more than merely hull breaches-they create massive fires and you're carrying lots of ammo-a hit that bad on a dropship and you don't have to worry about the crew-they're dead, as is their ship.

go through your older books, 'durable' on dropships (durable enough for damage control procedures to matter) didn't start happening until the Word of Blake started slapping protectoin and capital weapons on Mules in the 3060s.

Maybe even from lessons learned in Alain's Big Adventure.

The nearest equivalent (functionally) would be taking your local F&W patrol, some merchant seamen off big cargo boats, your local yacht club, and putting it under the command of a Naval Historian like Drachinifel-and giving them a barely-refurbished USS Missouri, or Iowa.

As long as they're not facing an actual navy crewed by regulars with professional standards, they'll do 'okay'-at least, avoid grounding themselves on a rock somewhere.

Thankfully, they were facing Clanners whom are about on part with a 3rd year Annapolis Cadet in terms of actual experience (only, with an organizatoin that encourages the kind of shit behavior professional navies tried since the days of Nelson to beat out of their officers), but have all the awesome new toys.

For THIS exercise, the challenges for the FSN, is simply building up a professional, working Navy, rather than a collection of militaria in the hands of highly literate, but otherwise unprepared, amatuers.

If they did that, it wouldn't really matter what kind of ships they have, because Navies only work if the crews and officers are good-in the modern day "Sailors who fight beat warriors who sometimes visit boats".

same thing here-the hypothetical FSN has to focus on developing a skills base and an institutional culture of professionalism that would look like inhumane nightmare fuel to the ground arm, with emphasis on mastering their environment and their survival equipment (their ships).  such a Navy would eat the collections of militaria used by someone else.

even with lower tech solutions and answers.

What tasks need to be mastered?

1. interception, and withdrawal in deep (non close orbital) space.  This is the big one, because it's difficult enough to be rare.  Working out how to catch pirates at the pirate point, or just outside it, instead of waiting for 'm to reach close orbit.

2. Mapping.  Map the gravity wells, map their positions, map the systems you're defending, know where the pirate points ARE, and where they will be.  This isn't about in-system jumps, it's about being able to react to a probe before they're burning wal-mart to the ground.

3. Damage Mitigation.  You are in a warship, you will be shot at, your enemies, will probably hit.  Find ways to work your ship that make this NOT a fatal event for the entire crew.

4. RECON.  Naval forces work best with information.  Information is gathered passively, and actively, but you can't trust that Comstar is going to deliver the reports of your spies in time for them to be of use, nor can you trust them not to deliver those reports to the people you're spying on.  A working navy needs to do recon, that target system? if you don't know the patrol periods, range, and composition of the enemy's militia and/or garrisons? you've failed, don't launch the mission.  Launch a mission to spy on them instead, maybe using...

5. Duration Operation: why did the SLDF have such a huge cargo on their warships? well, the Zenith and Nadir are the closest permanent and stable approaches (Pirate points are transitory-they appear and disappear periodically).  you can enter from BEYOHND the jump limit at angles local defense can't afford to look.  but, this requires fuel and food, and spending LOTS of time in space.  GET USED TO DOING THAT.  also get used to using telescopes and radio antennas and coping with lightspeed delay and doppler effect so you can gather useful intel.

Humans are creatures of habit, observe one long enough, and you'll know how well he reacts, and how he reacts, and how to turn that against him.

6. Under Way Replenishment in support of Duration Ops.  The less time your crew spends in port, the fewer chances they have to tell a bar-girl something that screws your whole strategic offensive.  This also sharpens and develops your OWN ability to predict what YOUR forces can, and can't accomplish.

7. Communications!!!  Navies in the age of sail carried critical messages because they were secure means of doing so.  Ninety percent of your FSN (or other Great House Navy) needs to be carrying messages and critical info you're not stupid enough to trust to Comstar.  A 'Command Circuit' should be your normal, not something that strains your assets, you need to have couriers who only go from system a, to system b, and do so rapidly and regularly with alternates.  This is like putting a supercharger on any warships you have, because they can actually know where to go in time to be worth sending.

wall of battle and gun-power is tertiary to these-it's ridiculously easy to deny an enemy a battle he's prepped to wage for months, or to deny him the terms he intended when he started preparing.

[Minemech]

 I agree that the FedCom has a gaping hole around fleet recon. I just cannot see them developing a recon ship that I would even classify as mediocre nonetheless a good one. The mentality is simply not there.

[Daryk]

Cannonshop: Amen, brother! :)

[Cannonshop]

I agree that the FedCom has a gaping hole around fleet recon. I just cannot see them developing a recon ship that I would even classify as mediocre nonetheless a good one. The mentality is simply not there.

It's not so much a ship, as a skills-set.  Anything with a jump engine and decent cargo fraction can do the JOB.  (well, that and the same package you would need for colonial/planetary survey, after all, somebody had to survey all those colonies that are now contested worlds... they sure as hell didn't do it with sensors that go blind less than a light second out.)

The gear comes up after you develop the baseline mentality and methods.  Basically, before those custom shoes for the Ironman triathlon make sense, it's a good idea to recognize that you need to be able to walk without falling down.

[Daryk]

For less than 10 tons and two extra crew, you can get a Hi-Res Imager and the other two tons of Communications Equipment to max out at 7 tons equivalent.  Even Corvettes can afford that package.

[Minemech]

For less than 10 tons and two extra crew, you can get a Hi-Res Imager and the other two tons of Communications Equipment to max out at 7 tons equivalent.  Even Corvettes can afford that package.

Corvettes and Raiders are the logical purveyors of fleet recon, but that does not mean that the FedCom has the mentality to build a ship for that task. The FedCom tends to go catch-all in warship design which precludes specialists. They also tend to give their ships extremely low cargo stores for their masses (You can parasite your way through some of that).

[Cannonshop]

Corvettes and Raiders are the logical purveyors of fleet recon, but that does not mean that the FedCom has the mentality to build a ship for that task. The FedCom tends to go catch-all in warship design which precludes specialists. They also tend to give their ships extremely low cargo stores for their masses (You can parasite your way through some of that).

I think that is more an artifact of the construction rules and the structure on the boardgame-aka during the time when they were minmaxing the Feddies for actual gameplay.

My point is, your recon vessel doesn't even have to be a proper warship.  using a Merchant class or Scout can do the job (with modifications).  Likewise for moving messages-stick-and-ball ships are just fine for that-in quantity.

The problem focus, is that everyone is focusing on the final moment without looking at what it takes to actually get there.  By the time the maps are on the table and the miniatures are laid out, all the strategic factors have (or should have) been worked out.  those strategic factors are the 99% of your actual naval power.

I think the best way to explain this, is when you see a Klanner Kustom on the boards with X times Y number of AC/20s, and one ton of ammo to feed them.

It's minmaxed for a small map duel.  Same thing with a lot of the designs you're critiquing, and same for a lot of the complaints about how "oversize" the cargo fraction was on the 2750 ships.

It's not oversize, if you're looking at them from a strategy level, it's only overrsize when your entire horizon is 10 to 20 turns on two mapsheets.

strategically your navy (whatever you use) needs to be able to handle duration deployment,  This is as true if you're using Jumpship/dropship combos, as it is if you're intent on building an effective warship branch.  shallow cargo bays and short fuel tanks lets your dropships maybe sprint for a short time, but that's going to screw them if you need them to do more than sprint from surface to orbit and back.

even if they're carved from a block of armor plate and have a vast array of firepower.

The less inherent cargo or fuel you're carrying, the more reliant you're going to be on underway replenishment by logistics vessels, and the shorter your axis of motion is going to end up being.  (also the narrower your functional envelope of performance).

This makes the job of getting past your pickets so much easier for your opponents-your deployment distance and duration are narrower, shorter, your need for resupply is higher, your costs are too.

your navy spends more time, as a result, in dock, and less time developing skills and knowledge to be more effective.

Range and duratoin give you something that raw armor and firepower don't-they give you the strategic, and often, tactical initiative.  You pick when the fight occurs, and where, while a navy with short legs has to rely on their opponents to choose to attack them where they are strongest.

Smart strategists don't do that if they have another option.  The 'decisive' battle is decisive because you've hit the enemy where his vulnerability and weakness combine, not where they are both absent.

[Hellraiser]

Corvettes and Raiders are the logical purveyors of fleet recon, but that does not mean that the FedCom has the mentality to build a ship for that task.
...
The FedCom tends to go catch-all in warship design which precludes specialists. They also tend to give their ships extremely low cargo stores for their masses (You can parasite your way through some of that).

As CS put it,  Scouts & Merchants (or Hunters) are better options for recon.
The FC has more JS variety in production than any other nation IIRC. 
I seem to recall DS/JS giving out the original production info & had the FS & LC each making 4/5 of the 5 OG JS models combined covering all 5.
Plenty of smaller more discrete options for "Recon" via blending in w/ JS traffic.


Actually the FC tends to go "support the DS Fleet" in Warship design.
Which then explains the 2nd issue which is, Who needs Cargo when you have enough collars that you can devote one to a Mammoth permanently & let it act as your "Shuttle" on Resupply duty down to the planet or over to a space station, etc etc w/o having to park your Warship next to an airlock or in close orbit.

At least that is how I explain what is clearly a "lack of balance" between Collars, Cargo, & SI in all 3 FC ships.