Author Topic: Questions, Naggings, Sharing of Ideas  (Read 17745 times)

fever_Dream.)

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Questions, Naggings, Sharing of Ideas
« on: 29 May 2019, 04:33:19 »
I'll open up with the fact that I was a playtester.  I sat down and made 100 characters when I got my hands on the book.  None of which I made seemed to be as powerful as some players are making theirs.

So, I'm curious.  How often do you find players who don't use Clan backgrounds (and even those that do) end up with +6 - +8 in mech gunnery and piloting?  I mean, translating it to Battletech, doesn't that make them around 0/0, -1/-1 MechWarriors?

I haven't had a chance to outright run a game for over a decade, and now that I am, I seem to have a "that guy" who wants to be the biggest badass MechWarrior.  I explained that most of my game is probably not going to take place on a battlefield.

I dunno.  Probably just looking for a reason to tell a guy that his 25 year old has been doing nothing but training in simulators most of his life that he has ignored the rest of life outdoors.  I'm putting my foot down, but I also want to explain why without going "GM fiat".

« Last Edit: 10 October 2019, 23:50:23 by fever_Dream.) »

Daryk

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #1 on: 29 May 2019, 04:37:11 »
I don't see that problem when using the life module system, even with the +100 XP per year over 21.

fever_Dream.)

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #2 on: 29 May 2019, 04:47:03 »
Yeah, but +4 seems slightly more explainable than +8.

Do you take Bloodmark +3 and Enemy +3 to get to that point?  I asked both of these players if they would mind talking it over with their fellow players to see if everyone was okay that there'd be conflicts that could affect the company as a whole.

Eh, again, I guess I wanted some characters that were more than just a MechWarrior (yes, I know, the name of the game is MechWarrior).  Who are they outside the cockpit?  One was "I could be the face!"  When another player is playing a sleazy exiled noble from the Combine who found his way to Astrokaszy to possibly find a "presentable" mercenary company to grift people with.

massey

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #3 on: 29 May 2019, 08:18:58 »
If most of the game is not going to take place on a battlefield, then what's the problem?  Let him waste his points on things that won't matter.

The thing about Battletech is that even ace pilots still get hit the same.  It doesn't matter if he's a 0/0, he still only gets normal target movement modifiers when people shoot at him.

Maelwys

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #4 on: 29 May 2019, 10:09:19 »
Its not really that hard to minmax a character using the life path system (or point buy for that matter). +8 is only 456 XP, less than what you can buy for the character using the "buying additional XP" rules. It is going to leave them deficient in other areas of course. I'm kind of curious as to what the rest of the character looks like, especially in terms of attributes.

So yeah. If you really wanted to focus on something, potentially to the breaking point, its not that hard to do, but it will leave you deficient in other areas, IMO.

As for the player themselves, you've explained your problem with the character and how it fits into the campaign, and the player decided not to change with it. You can either roll with it and deal with all the potential problems later on ("My character can't do anything!") or you can set your foot down as the GM ("Yeah, this isn't going work, this need to be changed.") and deal with all the potential problems now ("This is what I want to do!").

I mean you're the GM. You're the one that has final say over all this. Its his character sure, but its your campaign, and you're the one that has to make sure that EVERYONE has a part and having fun.

fever_Dream.)

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #5 on: 29 May 2019, 15:06:04 »
I think I ultimately know what's bothering me, and it's me being spoiled.  For instance in my game:

"So, tell me about your character?"

Player 1:  "Well, I'm a noble from the Draconis Combine.  Second cousin even married into the Kurita house, but completely "forgot" about her side of the family.  Regardless, total huckster, uses his nobility to bilk people.  Bilked the wrong people, offended his sister's husband.  Had to get out.  Astrokaszy seemed like a good place to hide from the family.  Oh, and there are many hapless wannabe mercenaries that can maybe help me make some money..."

Player 2:  Lyran-born doctor.  Humanitarian.  Got his pilot's license to fly evacuation helicopters to hospitals.  Studied to be a surgeon.  Was damn good at it.  Wrote a paper on neurobiology that was not well-taken by some of the established professors.  Past was dug up, license revoked.  Never could practice in Lyran space again.  Still a humanitarian at heart, found his way to Astrokaszy to set up a clinic where he doesn't exactly need a license to practice."

Player 3:  Lyran noble.  Her family fought in just about every Succession War.  Wanted to do her patriotic duty, but... didn't quite cut it.  Last in her class.  One day found family talking to some guys in white robes.  Seems they were interested in some... strategic information.  Wasn't aware that the family knew a lot more about Lyran secrets.  Sent an anonymous tip, stole family's 'Mech, high tailed it to Astrokaszy to hide out from weirdo cultists.

Player 4:  Federated scientist publishing papers on myomers.  Fascinated by the history of the myomer trap pulled on the Capellans.  Likes to reverse engineer and test out potential new forms of TSM.  GO ONE FURTHER FOR QSM!  But without funding, a home, and only this junk Cataphract poorly bargained for, ended up on Astrokaszy to do unpublishable research and maybe fix up some peoples' mechs.  Maybe one day he'll learn to pilot that thing.  Dad used to let him park a Hatchetman in the barn.  How hard could a Cataphract be?

Player 5:  I'm a badass Mechwarrior.

The problem is me.  And you guys are right.  One shot outside the 'Mech and that player's done for.  Don't wish to target him because of that because... well, I could be accused of targeting him just for that.

Thanks for the input.

massey

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #6 on: 29 May 2019, 16:00:10 »
Don't kill the character.  Just let him be free to suck.  He embarrasses himself at a party with all the right people because he doesn't have any appropriate skills.  He gets swindled out of some money in a bar because he fell for a cheap con.  He signs on for a really crappy assignment (for low pay) because he doesn't know how to read a contract.

Don't go out of your way to screw him over, but after a session or two it should be clear that he's not quite up to snuff in certain areas.  Then give him the opportunity for a rebuild.  I'd suggest letting other characters use those same skills to get past some easy obstacles, that way it doesn't look like you're picking on him.

Maingunnery

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #7 on: 29 May 2019, 16:23:55 »

I would ask him who paid for his characters training  ;)
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massey

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #8 on: 29 May 2019, 16:26:54 »
I would ask him who paid for his characters training  ;)

He paid for his own training.  That's why he doesn't have any money anymore. :)

CoreWatch

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #9 on: 29 May 2019, 21:39:16 »
An interesting thread!

And one that can commonly happen in real life as well if one were to not apply common sense and logic to the job skills and life choices as they progress throughout life. The life module system does do a decent job at character creation to truly mimic what we would probably go thru if presented with those paths in life and it's clear to see that there are only so many points that one can distribute by the character creations end.

I always let characters choose their own fate, even if that fate is as skewed as the hopped-up fighting type that has no other warranted skills. Because they then see the error of their ways as they play the game and realize that they may be good at that one thing but ultimately suck at all other things and consequently will have to rely on teammates or will have to spend the bulk of their eventual earned experience playing catch up to become minimally playable at what the game considers some of the most used core skills needed to survive.

Ultimately though, it's still you as a GM's decision to decide if you'll accept the character as presented. I personally would like to have that character give me a justifiable story as to why he/she is so combat heavy, chances are as well they have enemies, scars, wounds, and some traumas to go with those elite level pilot/gunnery skills though.

Anyway, hope it works out for you!

Cheers!
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dgorsman

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #10 on: 29 May 2019, 22:01:26 »
A somewhat more subtle method of pulling off a switch, if you need it: it's the same person, he's just been lying out of a bodily orifice about what a bad ass he is.  Google "What color is the boat house at Hereford? " for the setup.  Gives both of you an out.
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Maelwys

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #11 on: 29 May 2019, 22:53:27 »
Short descriptions like that may be a sign of unfamiliarity with the system as well. You may wish to find one of the various "20 questions" out there (I can't remember if ATOW has its own version off hand) that helps to flesh out characters and have the person work on it with you.

Daryk

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #12 on: 30 May 2019, 03:17:42 »
The life module system usually takes care of the 20 questions aspect.

Have the other players said anything to player 5?  Peer pressure might help you out here...

fever_Dream.)

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #13 on: 30 May 2019, 04:56:20 »
Update:  Yes, the other players did help.  And it turns out to be a compelling character now.

Player 5:  Canopian.  Typical high school jock.  Smug footballer who has tried to charm every cheerleader from Vixen to Canopus.  Riding on that popularity, tried to get into the academy.  But in Canopus, popularity alone doesn't get you into the Canopian Institute of War.  Managed to convince a family to train him personally... if he married their daughter.  Agreed, turns out he was damn good at what he does.  Was about to have his way paid into the Canopian Highlanders when he welched on the marriage.  Soon he discovers that Hell hath no fury than a Canopian Woman scorned...  And it's led to him having a kind of paranoia about women in general.  Especially well-dressed women.

I actually really like that character.  And I get to put him in a run down Stinger owned by a landowner to pay off all his debts.  I'm not dissing Stingers.  Love the buggers.

Again, thanks for the advice and conversation, folks.

The problem is mostly me, and I realize why.  I like my players' characters to at least have character flaws.  Nothing crippling, just something that makes them stick out.
« Last Edit: 30 May 2019, 05:04:32 by fever_Dream.) »

Maelwys

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #14 on: 30 May 2019, 10:40:11 »
The life module system usually takes care of the 20 questions aspect.

For the most part, but the Life Modules can be pretty generic. "White Collar" can be a starting point, and can be expanded with the 20 questions into something like "Raised by a single father who spent most of his time focused on his work which was working on a Lyran brokerage firm."

They're helpful for fleshing things out for people that might not be inherently familiar with the system and can spurn other ideas.

The problem is mostly me, and I realize why.  I like my players' characters to at least have character flaws.  Nothing crippling, just something that makes them stick out.

That's...not a problem. That's perfectly fine. Characters SHOULD have quirks and flaws. They don't have to be crippling, but it should be something that makes them...you know, characters.

fever_Dream.)

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #15 on: 01 June 2019, 09:26:41 »
I ran my game, it went great according to my players, and they were interested in having friends play a game on another day.  So I thought I'd try my hand at perhaps some IS Clan stuff, where the players would be forced to get their hands dirty with... eww... politics.  Then let them go hog wild as gladiators for Zellbringen Stables on Solaris later on.

Rather than start a new thread, this one seems watched enough.

So my focus would just be on making something "canonically correct".  To give people the option to play whatever they want, just that the eventually become part of, say, Clan Jade Falcon.

So during the Life Stages, they would choose any affiliation, go through the training, then maybe make them "repeat" a module.  So if a player was some Capellan, but fought a Trial of Position, they could begin:  CC ->  IS Stage 2 ->  IS Stage 3 (Academy or whatever) -> Stage 4 IS Tour of Duty, but then maybe have them take Freeborn Sibko, or Tour of Duty as an additional module?

Would you use the "dual affiliation" rule?

I think easier for those who want to be a member of another Clan, just make a character as normal, then say they were taken as a Bondsman and moved to the Inner Sphere.  Or something.

I admit, I never liked the Clans, so my ideas on them are fuzzy.  And I get confused going through the Clan Chatterweb threads.  :)

Daryk

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #16 on: 01 June 2019, 09:40:01 »
I wouldn't allow an IS veteran to take a Freeborn Sibko module.  A second Tour of Duty would probably do it, maybe after a Civilian Job module to represent time as a bondsman.

fever_Dream.)

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #17 on: 11 June 2019, 12:26:21 »
So my last session was interesting.  Having the players planning a heist.  The players are going to stop at the Mica Majority space station to get the negotiated transportation before sneaking into Fed territory.

A situation came up after I had one NPC mention "You're gonna meet a lot of people at the station.  Weird people.  You could even run into one of those 'Clan Sharks' people.  Best to avoid those guys."

Well, one player plays his character and is like "What are Clans?"  Another player then, in character, proceeds to give the entire breakdown of the Clans, "The Great Refusal", and all the Trials.  As his Discord was acting up, I was going, "Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, back up there.  Looking at your character sheet, I see no skills related to Interest / The Clans.  Or Clan Remembrance."  He apparently didn't hear me and continued on.

When he restarted, I told him that everything he thinks his character said, didn't.

Now, I'm not one to pull the "Interest / Ass from Hole in the Ground" shtick, but it did get me thinking about what level of metaknowledge is fine.  Especially in a group where two have read every novel, sourcebook, and TRO cover to cover three or four times.

What level of metaknowledge to you allow?  I'm sure that there are a lot of players who don't like to be "dumbed down" as a character, but hey.  I imagine one could dump the idea if everyone in the group knew Clan society out of character.

Edited:  It's one thing to say "That's an Atlas", as it's among the most iconic things in all societies...
« Last Edit: 11 June 2019, 12:29:33 by fever_Dream.) »

Elmoth

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #18 on: 11 June 2019, 15:04:30 »
Depends. By 3070 I guess hat most clans will be known across the inner sphere by every single grunt with access to a holovid. Plenty of WW2-like movies based on the clan invasion and other holivid series will havw been produced, so a general knowlege of the clans and their inner sphere history will be known.

If not, plan B will be to allow that post, but those ar epoints in knowledges that need to come from somehwre, so you can edit his character aheet removing a few points from a few skills (or them all) to have him have a good knowedge of recent history and major political factions and families in the inner sphere.

Robroy

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #19 on: 11 June 2019, 15:10:28 »
I start by asking myself a couple questions. What would make the news/ be common knowledge? Would the military I am a member of know this? Would the military I am a member of brief me on this? Do I know someone that would know this,  and tell me?

After that, as it gets into more detail/ history. Then you might want to look at the Interest skill.

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fever_Dream.)

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #20 on: 11 June 2019, 15:20:37 »
Depends. By 3070 I guess hat most clans will be known across the inner sphere by every single grunt with access to a holovid. Plenty of WW2-like movies based on the clan invasion and other holivid series will havw been produced, so a general knowlege of the clans and their inner sphere history will be known.

If not, plan B will be to allow that post, but those ar epoints in knowledges that need to come from somehwre, so you can edit his character aheet removing a few points from a few skills (or them all) to have him have a good knowedge of recent history and major political factions and families in the inner sphere.
Oh, this is live.  Roll20 + Discord.  Discord's just been acting up.

Now, we have a player joining who has Interest / Clans and so on.  Her Lyran character grew up on those holovids, and she started fangirling on Natasha Kerensky, even though the character's player despises Natasha in real-life.

I'm also thinking about this topic because of that.  Do I let this guy, a blue collar dude from Marik space, ramble about every intricacy of Clan society, and allow the lyran to spend her skill points in something other than Interest / Clans?  The game is 3067.

I am just reminiscing about the ancient days of Vampire games where people would know everything about Werewolf society in some kind of all supernaturals know how all other supernaturals are organized.

massey

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #21 on: 11 June 2019, 16:58:14 »
Everybody on Earth knows who Hitler was.  You don't need Interest: WWII to know that.

For just a general info dump, you shouldn't need Interest: Clans.  I'd just say that you're under no obligation to follow the exact details in the canon of your game world.  In other words, if the guy who doesn't have the skill starts talking about specific details of the novels, or exactly how Clan Bloodname trials work, or something like that, that doesn't mean he's right (even if the player is actually right).

Basically, if you don't have the skill, your character doesn't know enough to differentiate between what is actual knowledge and what is the Hollywood version.  In real life, Hitler was mildly interested in the occult.  But Hollywood Hitler had teams of men hunting for the Ark of the Covenant and other mystical objects.  Even if the player has memorized the novels and knows it backwards and forwards, his character doesn't know all the relevant details.  Therefore, anything the player relies on beyond what his character knows, is subject to change without notice.  The player is almost guaranteed to know the story of Aidan Pryde.  The character almost certainly does not.  So if he starts going on and on about Aidan's life?  Then maybe that was just the Hollywood version, not what really happened.

fever_Dream.)

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #22 on: 11 June 2019, 18:54:50 »
Everybody on Earth knows who Hitler was.  You don't need Interest: WWII to know that.

For just a general info dump, you shouldn't need Interest: Clans.  I'd just say that you're under no obligation to follow the exact details in the canon of your game world.  In other words, if the guy who doesn't have the skill starts talking about specific details of the novels, or exactly how Clan Bloodname trials work, or something like that, that doesn't mean he's right (even if the player is actually right).

Basically, if you don't have the skill, your character doesn't know enough to differentiate between what is actual knowledge and what is the Hollywood version.  In real life, Hitler was mildly interested in the occult.  But Hollywood Hitler had teams of men hunting for the Ark of the Covenant and other mystical objects.  Even if the player has memorized the novels and knows it backwards and forwards, his character doesn't know all the relevant details.  Therefore, anything the player relies on beyond what his character knows, is subject to change without notice.  The player is almost guaranteed to know the story of Aidan Pryde.  The character almost certainly does not.  So if he starts going on and on about Aidan's life?  Then maybe that was just the Hollywood version, not what really happened.

Thank you for this perspective.  I never thought about it, and I am totally going to be using that as a lesson in perspective when they get to the Mica Majority station.  It could be great to deal with both that one player's metaknowledge and the other player's wish to play an utter holovid fangirl of the idealized Natasha Kerensky.

Love it.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #23 on: 13 June 2019, 01:51:28 »
Everybody on Earth knows who Hitler was.  You don't need Interest: WWII to know that.
  You'd be amazed at the number of people who don't. Some schools in Japan don't teach anything about WW2 at all. Other countries in Asia are similar; WW2 Europe is not relevant.

  When I was stationed in Germany, I lived in a small town that had a large number of WW2 veterans and I enjoyed listening to their war stories. One of the guys I worked with served in North Africa and displayed his uniform and medals in his home. All of the veterans agreed on one thing: They wished Germany had won the war. To them, it had nothing to do with politics or evil or crap like that, they were simply serving their country.

  The above being said, as a GM my players mastered the art of min/maxing characters and on the battlefield, were like gods but were inept when out of their 'mechs, which prompted me to run a merc company based on the Archer series, which was insane hilarious, due to them being very inventive with all the rope I gave them... They were hired to put down a rebellion and the the insurgents captured a Lyran base. The unit welcomed hundreds of escaping Lyran soldiers but allowed dozens of insurgents to infiltrate the unit. These insurgents made off with several vehicles, sabotaged other vehicles, and captured one of the players, who was paraded through the streets of a large, enemy city, through jeering crowds.  The players would get into fist fights over disagreements and those brawls would soon be posted on the BT equivalent of YouTube.  Good times...

monbvol

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #24 on: 14 June 2019, 01:36:22 »
To further expand just because the battletech version of google almost certainly exists doesn't mean the character used or had access to it.  Some worlds are backwards like that.

Which is pretty much the start of my tolerance of metaknowledge.  I don't mind it too much if the setting has something like google/wikipedia.  But these are places to start and the information may not be fully accurate or in depth.  So throwing curveballs to reward investing in interest/knowledge skills is a fairly common goto for me.  Also partially to keep things interesting for me as a GM too.

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #25 on: 07 September 2019, 08:19:54 »
Hello again.  Using this thread to ask my inane questions.

So I started a new game.  It's a Clan Homeworld campaign where players would play members of the Laborer, Tech, and Merchant castes.  I was always curious about things from the point of view of the average Laborer Schmoe in a universe of trillions.  I posted an advertisement and explained that it was a game where it would not be combat-heavy, and especially not Mech-heavy.  It would take place at the beginning of the Wars of Reaving, and the idea is them surviving in what would eventually become a post-apocalyptic world.  I actually didn't think it would attract the attention of BattleTech fans.

I was wrong.  In a few hours, I got several applicants.  I was pretty stunned.

The rules were fairly simple.  Everyone's a Mandrill, everyone's either born into the castes, or were Warriors so awful, they were kicked down into the Laborer caste (thus Washout stage 4).

The question is more me rationalizing two who expressed interest in playing Elemental washouts.  Like, gentle giants or oafish types.  Awesome.  Love it.  But then I get to thinking how they would need to move about in society.  Say they get orders to  a construction site.  Their strength is a boon.  I started feeling that this would just be goofy overall.  Do they have buses with Elemental-sized seats?  Do Elementals have cars, and do the roads accommodate them?  One expressed that he wanted an SUV with the roof cut off, and I felt that is too damn goofy.  I suggested that his Vehicle trait represents a vehicle that he himself custom built in a junkyard, since the guy had mechanical skills.

I can't say much on the concepts because during what I called "A Hundred Characters" that I generated during the beta test, I played with the numbers with a concept of an Elemental that washed out and turned out to be a fairly average-to-good doctor.  It worked that way, but conceptually?  Eh.

Edit:  Feel like I should add that one of my players was born and raised in the Soviet-era Eastern Europe and liked the idea of a kind of repressive society game, even if the Clans do have quite a bit of creature comforts.

Daryk

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #26 on: 07 September 2019, 09:19:53 »
Vehicle-wise, soft top jeeps or straight convertibles are absolutely reasonable.  As far as public transportation, being that Elementals are the largest population in the Warrior caste, it only makes sense that buses and trains can accommodate them.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Something's bugging me, and I don't know why...
« Reply #27 on: 28 September 2019, 13:05:07 »
The thing about Battletech is that even ace pilots still get hit the same.  It doesn't matter if he's a 0/0, he still only gets normal target movement modifiers when people shoot at him.
  I've GMed power gamers who have the rules down. Take Special Pilot Ability "Jumping Jack" that reduces the jumping penalty to -1, add ECM Ghost Targets, and suddenly, half the enemy units in play can't hit them, especially when several ECM bubbles overlap. Add darkness and fog, and these elites cannot be touched, which is why I limit all starting players to 3/3 and make the roleplay aspect grueling and as deadly out of the cockpit as any battlefield, especially when my players make a point to offend as many people as possible.

  As a GM I also let the players know, it they are fielding elites, so will the enemy. So they face enemy pilots with Special Abilities, customized 'Mechs with ECM, and the battles are no longer cake walks...
 

Daryk

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #28 on: 28 September 2019, 13:53:55 »
Jumping Jack (as powerful as it is) really only affects the PC's ability to shoot, though I see how it might increase some people's tendency to jump rather than walk or run.  Ghost Targets, darkness, fog and the rest work both ways, and I can only imagine any OPFOR run by you will take full advantage of them.  The answer to those PCs going this route are Area of Effect weapons: Artillery Cannons, proper Artillery, bombs, mine fields, etc.  I may only have a 3 or 4 Gunner, but I only need to hit the hex...

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Something's bugging me (edit: And other questions)
« Reply #29 on: 28 September 2019, 15:13:30 »
Jumping Jack (as powerful as it is) really only affects the PC's ability to shoot, though I see how it might increase some people's tendency to jump rather than walk or run.  Ghost Targets, darkness, fog and the rest work both ways, and I can only imagine any OPFOR run by you will take full advantage of them. 
  A 5/8/5 jumping into heavy woods make a huge difference in the linear 2d6 system, add Clan LPLs and Weapon Specialist (Lasers) and tilt the playing field even further. That being said, I only allowed one player to have Natural Aptitude/Gunner, because he was so bad at the game. He was such a "D&D" player and always surprised his opponent didn't drop on the first shot. He was also one of two players in our group incapable of handling more than one mech on the table... "Want to make him happy? Give him an Atlas... Want to screw him up? Give him a lance of Atlases..."