Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard

[Church14]

Candidate B has no country anymore and her old one doesn't want her

Candidate A has been in the driver seat for a while now

we’ve seen Jiyi be in command since something like July 3151 through June 3152. Stephanie Chistu assumes Khanship at a similar time but we don’t have her first year lore yet. A fair comparison can’t be done until the end of iKEO.

That said, I’m expecting to think Jiyi is the superior Khan, but I also don’t have anything solid to argue the point with.

[Cannonshop]

we’ve seen Jiyi be in command since something like July 3151 through June 3152. Stephanie Chistu assumes Khanship at a similar time but we don’t have her first year lore yet. A fair comparison can’t be done until the end of iKEO.

That said, I’m expecting to think Jiyi is the superior Khan, but I also don’t have anything solid to argue the point with.

Jiyi may be the superior candidate, but that does not presuppose he will be permitted to continue to exist.

[Generic Clanner 24601]

Just a few thoughts on the last few pages:

1) Considering Jiyi vs Stephanie is a little cart before the horse. There will absolutely be a reckoning between the AML and Jiyi's Falcons before then (likely due to the merchant caste's understandable paranoia about the Falcon Warrior caste). For what's worth, I prefer Jiyi because I like him, but mostly because despise the idea of the Falcons serving Alaric (though I am fine with my Ravens serving him since I assume they are being opportunistic). Honestly, I don't see the which Chitsu is the real Khan being settled until the end of the era.

2) I can see the Dragoons dropping one of Alaric's kids off in the Hinterlands once they learn about Jiyi's Falcons.

3) Kinda a wild speculation, but I don't think Alaric is particularly interested in the Falcons regaining their genetic legacies. I think he wants them to be like the Black Watch in the sense that they are the elite of the elites from throughout the Star League. He doesn't care about the Jade Falcon legacy. He cares about his own. He wants the Jade Falcons as a trophy. Having them keep the Jade Falcon name, but allowing anyone who has enough loyalty and skill to join, then he can have a Clan Jade Falcon that will be truly loyal to him and his successors and will never think of themselves as Jade Falcon first.

4) I agree (as much as I dislike it) that, yeah, Stephanie has more legitimacy at this point than Jiyi. But she and her Falcons are tied to Alaric. His own legitimacy is far from secured. Failure to protect the Wolf Empire, seeing his sibko stolen and spread throughout the Clans (and mercenaries that he personally considers traitors and personally humiliated), and most of all, Stone's man escaped and likely carries the knowledge that the Wolves won because the Republic threw their toughest units at the Falcons and weaker units at the Wolves to ensure a Wolf victory.

[BrianDavion]

I'd advise against counting Stephenie Christu out just yet, she's a clever woman, whose willing to lay seeds that could be dorment for years. Remember she basicly assasinated Malvina Hazen

[Metallgewitter]

And just wait how this whole question ends unceremoniously when Stephanie gets killed by some unnamed Capellan

[Shin_Fenris]

And just wait how this whole question ends unceremoniously when Stephanie gets killed by some unnamed Capellan

Via jump jets to the cockpit.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Reminds me of the tragic loss of one of our greatest Khans, Marthe Pryde, the way she went out could have been better.

[Bren]

I loved the story of her end, it was great. Few Clansmen get one so ... I can't think of a word ... fitting and 'full circle'?

It would have been a perfect 'scene' to cap off a novel (or novel trilogy!) about the Society vs. the Falcons.

[Gaiiten]

I loved the story of her end, it was great. Few Clansmen get one so ... I can't think of a word ... fitting and 'full circle'?

It would have been a perfect 'scene' to cap off a novel (or novel trilogy!) about the Society vs. the Falcons.

Indeed. This is a great missing story. So many known characters in, Marthe Pryde, Peri Pryde, Joanna, the Pryde sibko, Horse, Kael Pershaw, Etienne Balzac and ... and

[Bren]

Hell ... even Nicholai Malthus.

[Gaiiten]

Hell ... even Nicholai Malthus.

Found finally his peace then.

Well, there could be so many great stories happened in the WoR. The story of the Jaguar, Russou Howell.

[Khalus Pryde]

We honestly have not seen enough of Stephanie Chistu as of yet to see how she handles the Khanship. Hopefully that gets cleared up in ilKhan's Eyes Only and the fiction associated with it. By Clan law though, Stephanie is certainly the more legitimate of the two Khans, as she was elected by a quorum of the Clan, which included all but two (Jiyi Chistu and Nikitia Malthus) Bloodnamed members that were left in Clan Jade Falcon. Jiyi was also elected, but he was nominated and elected without having a single Bloodnamed member present at his election aside from himself. That makes him seem like a self-made ruler by some arguments.

Additionally, if you dig into the Crusader doctrine, which I presume the Clan has defaulted to now that we have washed our hands of the Mongol Doctrine, the Clan that takes Terra is the ilClan. That Clan is Clan Wolf. While I do not like being bound to the Wolves or to ilKhan Alaric, by the ways of the Clan, they are to be acknowledged as the legitimate rulers over all other Clans. Anyone who defies that is going against the teachings of Kerensky. By the strictest of technicalities, Stephanie Chistu and her Falcons are the "true" Falcons despite not holding an iota of territory and probably having fewer warriors compared to Jiyi Chistu.

Don't get me wrong, I like Jiyi and what he's doing on Sudeten and what's left of the Clan out there. I find him and his stories compelling, as well as the inevitable coming clash between these two Khans and their factions. I just also cannot help but see him as an illegitimate Khan by the strictest interpretations of Clan law.

My two cents.

[Church14]

We honestly have not seen enough of Stephanie Chistu as of yet to see how she handles the Khanship. Hopefully that gets cleared up in ilKhan's Eyes Only and the fiction associated with it.

Agreed. We won't know if she's a competent, brilliant, or placeholder of a Khan until iKEO.

Additionally, if you dig into the Crusader doctrine, which I presume the Clan has defaulted to now that we have washed our hands of the Mongol Doctrine, the Clan that takes Terra is the ilClan. That Clan is Clan Wolf. While I do not like being bound to the Wolves or to ilKhan Alaric, by the ways of the Clan, they are to be acknowledged as the legitimate rulers over all other Clans. Anyone who defies that is going against the teachings of Kerensky.

About that... there's basically jack squat for actually defining what the ilClan is and means. The only concrete details:
1) Alaric as the current ilKhan chooses his successor.
2) The free guilds, so any lower caste not bound to a specific clan, are bound to Clan Wolf.
3) The criteria to become ilClan is to conquer Terra.
4) The ilClan shall lead the Re-Resurrected Star League

Caveats people forget:
- It doesn't say forever
- It doesn't say first to conquer Terra. Just conquer Terra. If Wolves mess up and (Picking functionally impossible option here) Hell's Horses take Terra, there's room in the interpretation that they are now the ilClan
- It offers no guidance what would happen if Wolves lost Terra to say... Marians. Owning Terra is the test, and they failed if they lose Terra.
- Leading the league does not mean blind obedience, or even necessarily obedience. See how well clans followed the ilKhans in clan history went.

It's clear the rules aren't, well, clear. ilClan sourcebook hammers home again that what "ilKhan" and "ilClan" means is going to be defined on the fly.


EDIT: Don’t get me wrong. I expect clan wolf to be the ilClan until the setting dies. But I just want to point out how little is actually in stone.

[ColBosch]

A big part of what's going on with the Hinterlands (and the Wolf Empire, for that matter) is that they just haven't heard much from Terra. Alaric seemed happy enough to muck about with the Ghost Bears for whatever reason, but its been radio silence for the Falcons and Wolves that aren't inside the Fortress. And of the post-Falcon OZ factions, I think the one most likely to take it in the neck will be the Alyina Mercantile League. Let's be clear, they're based on stealing almost the entire Falcon treasury and setting up a non-Clan system of government. They're basically pirates in the Clans' eyes.

(Not that I don't appreciate the AML out of universe, and I hope they stick around for a while.)

[BrianDavion]

Not only that, but the ALM are a direct challange to the clan system of governance etc. if they're allowed to keep at it, it could enchourage lower caste revolts elsewhere

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Additionally, if you dig into the Crusader doctrine, which I presume the Clan has defaulted to now that we have washed our hands of the Mongol Doctrine, the Clan that takes Terra is the ilClan.

My two cents.

I actually debate this point, to me, it seems now the JFFZ has expanded a little and shown its policies ("Without Question"), I would argue they are more leaning towards (for want of a better word) "Warden"

Can we see an agreement in the future between the two Khans ?, A Trial to see if they merge or not ? Have to wait and see. But I do strongly see the two factions being separate for quite a while, to develop more. Also, Jiyi holds the Genetic Repository too.

[Khalus Pryde]

I have a suspicion that we will see the Terran Falcons send an envoy to Sudeten. Whether that meeting is pleasant or not, I also see it ending in a Trial to decide the fate of the two Clans. But until then, yes, I see the two factions persisting in the universe for a while longer.

[Cannonshop]

I have a suspicion that we will see the Terran Falcons send an envoy to Sudeten. Whether that meeting is pleasant or not, I also see it ending in a Trial to decide the fate of the two Clans. But until then, yes, I see the two factions persisting in the universe for a while longer.

at least until one of them becomes inconvenient to the greater glories of Clan Wolf, anyway.

[Gaiiten]

Some are to rule and some are to serve.

[Teejay75]

Indeed. This is a great missing story. So many known characters in, Marthe Pryde, Peri Pryde, Joanna, the Pryde sibko, Horse, Kael Pershaw, Etienne Balzac and ... and

What was the name of the other female cadet that made it to the trial of position along with Marthe and Aidan. I've lost my copy of the omnibus and can't find it anywhere. I learned bout Brett's story but never heard anything else about the fourth cadet.

[Khalus Pryde]

Rena. She didn't live long enough to participate in the Trial of Position along with Aidan, Marthe, and Bret. She was killed or killed herself right before the Trial of Position.

[Cannonshop]

Some are to rule and some are to serve.

and some have "The Hand of God" on their shoulder, I know.

[Gaiiten]

and some have "The Hand of God" on their shoulder, I know.

Well, well, the Manei Domini did not like Jade Green, did they not?

[Metallgewitter]

Well, well, the Manei Domini did not like Jade Green, did they not?

The Manei Domini didn't like Clanners in general. Though I think they never really clashed with the Falcons, only with the Wolves, Bears, Nova Cats and Ravens. Funny that

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

.... I just also cannot help but see him as an illegitimate Khan by the strictest interpretations of Clan law.

My two cents.

You need to have a Clan in order to be a Khan and that's something Stephanie simply doesn't have as opposed to Jiyi who has a very decent sized one

Only people she has are dregs of Malvina's Mongols and whatever tiny handful of support staff they brought with themselves to witness their demise

Also you need to be a winner in order to be eligible for Khanship, another thing Jiyi has and Stephanie doesn't

Sure, she could show up on Sudeten with a challenge for Khanship and Falcons would just say: "Of course throtkin , just let us check your codex first before we put it to vote in the council... oh wait, what it is all this then? [points to a big fat L called the ilClan Trial]

Long story short: no Clan, no Khan

Of course she can definitely keep being Khan of Terran Falcons, that's a given

[tassa_kay]

You need to have a Clan in order to be a Khan and that's something Stephanie simply doesn't have as opposed to Jiyi who has a very decent sized one

Except she does have a Clan. It may not be big enough for your personal taste, but a Clan she does have. Not to mention the personal endorsement and backing of the ilKhan and ilClan.

Also you need to be a winner in order to be eligible for Khanship, another thing Jiyi has and Stephanie doesn't

Except she is a winner. Her military record is as good (if not better) than Jiyi Chistu's and is certainly more extensive, and she won the challenge over her ascension to the Khanship.

Sure, she could show up on Sudeten with a challenge for Khanship and Falcons would just say: "Of course throtkin , just let us check your codex first before we put it to vote in the council... oh wait, what it is all this then? [points to a big fat L called the ilClan Trial]

Except almost every single surviving member of the Falcons' Clan Council is... you guessed it, with Stephanie.

Oh, and then there's the blurbs in Tamar Rising that specifically state that Jiyi Chistu is the only living Bloodnamed Jade Falcon in the former OZ, and that the more senior surviving Bloodnamed Falcons on Terra (read: Stephanie Chistu) would pose a meaningful threat to his legitimacy as Khan. So even the written word doesn't really support your headcanon here.

[Cannonshop]

Thing is, on a practical, pragmatic, level, Stephanie Chistu needs the structure Jiyi is putting together/has put together.

The Falcons in the Sol system don't have their own logistics, support structure, or systems to maintain their identity as anything more than Alaric's murderous underliners.

If they want the Clan to be anything more than the threat used to frighten civilians on behalf of the Wolf Khan, they need what Jiyi's got.

This isn't to say they need him, but having him 'on the team' would make a lot of things work significantly better, especially given that Alaric's abandoned his support infrastructure just about completely, and has made himself reliant on terrorizing the Terrans into going to work.

(which is not a situation you want to keep running if you want your guns to go 'bang' when you're firing them later on.)

Especially, if you are Clan Jade Falcon.  See, Alaric "Preserved" them, after letting them commit atrocities, the odds that anyone is going to offer them unforced support is negligible, since they're still carrying and wearing those identifiers they were wearing when they arrived and engaged in massacre and orbital bombardments.

It'd be a little bit like what might happen in 1946 if the Russians used ex-Totenkopf SS, in uniform in Poland as underliners.  The odds of their getting useful, or even functioning supplies aren't nearly as good, if they're not getting them from Falcon holdings OUTSIDE the former Prefecture X...

so, Stephanie needs what Jiyi brings to the table.

of course, all the above relies on "Rule of Natural Consequences" and as we've seen repeatedly with the whole storyline, those don't happen if it impedes the designated hero (Alaric) in any meaningful way.

[Metallgewitter]

The question would be how the Jiyi Falcons (or even the AML Falcons) would react if Stephanie shows up and demands followership (or perhaps nicer ask for a "reunification"). Because right now she has a Clan in name only. Basically no holdings, no administration structure, no real industrial base except that which the Wolves will throw them their way. After all we don't know what happened to their Prefecture X holdings. They might be Capellan possesions for all we know or even in open rebellion because the Falcons left no garrisons. Right now they are more or less the "pet" of the Ilkhan

[Alan Grant]

I would agree that the Terran Falcons need the support/logistics/infrastructure and so on. I disagree that it HAS to come from the other Falcons.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Terran Falcons are getting support from the Wolves and the ilClan in the short term. Just to stand up what they have left and stabilize themselves. They'll need that just to patch the damage, treat the wounded, reload the ammo and so on to exist in anything resembling a functional combat force. Talking about the days/weeks/months/few years after the Terra Trial.

Once that precedent is established, they may not feel as much a sense of need to get what the other Falcons have. They may prefer to, sure, but if it proves insurmountable, it's not the only option on the table.

[Cannonshop]

I would agree that the Terran Falcons need the support/logistics/infrastructure and so on. I disagree that it HAS to come from the other Falcons.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Terran Falcons are getting support from the Wolves and the ilClan in the short term. Just to stand up what they have left and stabilize themselves. They'll need that just to patch the damage, treat the wounded, reload the ammo and so on to exist in anything resembling a functional combat force. Talking about the days/weeks/months/few years after the Terra Trial.

Once that precedent is established, they may not feel as much a sense of need to get what the other Falcons have. They may prefer to, sure, but if it proves insurmountable, it's not the only option on the table.

The problem here, is that canonically, Alaric's cut his own throat on that-he's abandoned his sibko infrastructure, industries and so on in the "Wolf Empire" to be taken by the Mariks and any other opportunistic neighbours, meaning all he's got, is what he's just grabbed, and that's a bunch of stuff that is both damaged, and has a workforce with a reason to slow-walk orders or slack on quality to the very edge of "they'll shoot you if you're worse than this".

That's not a good recipe for support, and it gets to be a worse recipe thanks to the Mongol Falcon's conduct during the invasion phase-they're not going to be getting willing, unforced support from the civilians who make those factories go, deliver the goods from those factories, etc.

as I said, it would be like expecting unforced support to units of the SS Totenkampf from Polish survivors in the mid to late 1940s-whom are still wearing their SS uniforms, with maybe a nice red armband to claim solidarity with the Soviets that are ALSO occupiers (but committed fewer public atrocities).

Then again, this is controlled by Editorial, and so natural consequences may well be waved aside as 'too complicated' so everyone will be happily supplying Alaric's Falcons without the subtle sabotage and passive aggression that SHOULD be there given how Malvina ran her part of the invasion.

after all, that would detract from the glories of Clan Wolf.