Author Topic: 'Mech Engineer Quest  (Read 44601 times)

Daryk

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #150 on: 05 December 2015, 07:21:54 »
I think the customer angle is exactly right.  Why would they pay for a tank and a 'mech with essentially the same capabilities?  Warclaw's point about the specs for project 49 is right, but doesn't account for the size of the local bureaucracy, i.e., it's entirely possible the team putting those specs together wasn't aware of the almost identical tank specs. The farther you are from the one actually stroking the check, the less cross talk and coordination you're likely to see (trust me on this one... I'm living that nightmare on a daily basis right now).  And yes, this puts the contractors trying to land government business in a very hard place.

All that said, ultimately we don't make money unless we can sell a design to the government.  Knowing now that another part of the company is fulfilling the speed/firepower requirement at a far more reasonable price, I think we need to focus on something different.  As much as I like the Trooper we were working on, the tank fills that role for a mere 1.3M C-Bills, meaning the bean counters in the government are likely to go for the three to one quantity advantage at the 4M C-Bill price point.  Yes, the personnel costs will be higher, but that's a different account.

So, as I said initially, we know both factions want a fire support mech, even though tanks are better for that role too.  We've done that math, so why not try to sell that?  We'll have to drop the CASE of course, but that's easily replaced by an extra machine gun.

Warclaw

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #151 on: 05 December 2015, 22:24:48 »
Right then, fire support it is.  Question is:  Direct fire support (Large Lasers and/or AC's) or Indirect? (LRM's)  Or a Combo?

And are we staying at 40 tons?  Or saying screw it and jumping up to 60?  Because fire support would be much more effective on a larger frame.

With the 6/9 medium tank effectively taking the trooper role, at least for the time being, it looks like we have an almost Capellan doctrine shaping up, with the Tanks leading the way, and the Mechs acting as the heavy hammer and/or for exploitation of breakthroughs.  Hard on the tankers, but "Blood greases the treads" you know.

Daryk

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #152 on: 05 December 2015, 23:04:29 »
Well, we worked out how to do an LRM version before, but tanks do that better since they don't take heat for them.  I think we should go for a multiple large laser design, since that's something tanks can't do as efficiently.

My initial flashbulb (just over 5M C-Bills) could work, but it's more of a brawler with all of those mediums, though that might appeal to at least one of the factions.  If we drop the jump jets and two of the mediums for heat sinks, we'd have a design that only builds movement heat and costs less than 4.6M.  If we also rip out the hands and lower arm actuators, it could flip the arms, and save us a little design complexity.  Exchanging the two mediums for four smalls makes it heat neutral and closer to 4.5M.

Another off the wall idea: a mini-Awesome.  Three larges and 19 HS comes in at 4.6M C-Bills.  Standing in water, it would only build one heat per turn.

Speaking of Awesomes... you can fit 4 larges and 29 heat sinks on one for about 6.2M C-Bills.

Koren-Gagin

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #153 on: 06 December 2015, 00:02:54 »
Sorry guys, been away work ya know how it just consumes all your time and whatever time you get you just like whatever get some sleep.

Guys what we can do is split the desicsion here ok. Allow the the least experinced people on the team work on the mech version of the T-50. As already been listed the economical, logistical, and ease on need for advance tech allows for a quicker production rates.

Than on the 60 tonner well lets go fire support, since one general wants fire support for all occasions, so going with what a pair of LRM 10s since (possibly 15s, but risk reduced armor or weapons for them) and a quatro of MLs or a pair of Large Lasers. Either allows for blazers in the future.

So yes it seems im combining and not helping but look we can scrap the 60 and just hailmary and go assualt mode and just go all lasers and missiles and armor screw that thing called speed. So yeah i recommend the T-50 mech and the assualt realy since this well hopefully appeal to el presindente. (Dont have much of an ideal on how to sell the assualt mech, help here guys)
"History is written by the victors, the defeated live it"

Daryk

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #154 on: 06 December 2015, 07:08:05 »
I just double checked the requirements, and it looks like the SRM/Machine Gun thing only applied to the light back stabber.  The Trooper spec said:

Project-57 Trooper
Medium Mech-possibly a light Heavy.
Emphasis on firepower and survival. 
Speed may be allowed to slip.  A 'Mech of the Line'.
Costs to be kept down as much as possible.
Use of purely domestic components is smiled upon.

And the fire support requirements were:
Project-61 Support
Long-range fire-support.
LRM firepower for indirect bombardment required. 
Direct-fire may also be useful.
Artillery missiles and tubes to be avoided.
Avoid directly cloning an existing design-lawsuits cost money, and mercenaries cost more.

Tweaking in SSW, it looks like we could jam a pair of large lasers in with two LRM-5s, but that's about it unless we really want to overheat.  If we go the Battle Axe route (i.e., 4/6/4), it's 15 HS.  And it comes in around 4.6M C-Bills without jump jets, 4.8M with them.

The main problem we have with a 60 ton design is that a stripped chassis with max armor (12.5 tons, with 24 tons for weapons) is already over the 4M C-Bill mark.  For comparison, I just threw a 4/6 tank into SAW (SSW for tanks), and with 6.5 tons of armor, 2 LRM-15s, a large laser and a medium laser, it came in under 2.6M.

This is where I wish we had a 200 rated engine.  Things are much cheaper at 50 tons.

Vehrec

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #155 on: 06 December 2015, 10:07:30 »
For the umpteenth time, the 4M per chasis mark is averaged over the whole fleet (Five Battalions or two Regiments).  If you sell two mechs at 2M, and one at 8, that's an average of 4.  If you sell a company of 20 ton millita backstabbers at 1.5 million each, then a lance of Atlas-likes can become available.  You can of course sell a fleet of aproximately 4-million 40-50 tonners, if you wish to hew as close to the average value as possible, but offering something over or under that won't get you sent to a gulag.

And if you really want a 200 rated engine, there's one currently in bench tests.  It's not company-made, but if you want it it's available for design considerations.
*Insert support for fashionable faction of the week here*

Daryk

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #156 on: 06 December 2015, 10:35:08 »
I get the average over the fleet thing, and that's why I've proposed designs above that price.  The problem is we haven't discussed anything viable much below 4M yet.  The slow 40 tonners could get us there, but they were just blown out of the water by the company's own tank.

The one design we haven't talked about yet is the scout.  At 30 tons and 8/12, max armor gives us 3 tons to work with.  The spec says "long range skirmish" only, and that works with an LRM-5 for about 2.5M.  Dropping a ton of armor for a medium laser keeps it right around the same price.

Dropping to 20 tons, a Locust clone with 3 RL-10s and a medium laser comes in around 1.6M.  It can build 4 heat, once.

Koren-Gagin

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #157 on: 06 December 2015, 12:34:41 »
Issue i see with the Locust clone is that well "the powers that be" may see a 30 tonner as going backwards we could get resistance or flat out no to the design. Sure we could sell the massed horde of light mechs. Though i have a feelin the horde of tanks covers this. Light mechs serve a good purpose yet if they do not have heavier support the losses would be extreme or at least unacceptable to a military mind.

I still believe the 40 ton design is a good compromise that still meets the wants and desires of the generals a good bit. It is not perfect but even generals can not make reality change to fit there perfect world they want. If we win the contract then we can work on the next mech but we have limitations on this design that all our well b if we do this, and this.

We are the issue that many military designers have had, the people in the military want this but only so much. Many designs in RL history that meet the requirements  perfectly  were never put massed production since th3 cost was too much.

For example look at the P-38 lightning during WWII, the U.S. Army wanted a fighter that could go on long range fighter escorts over europe with the daylight bombing raids. But because of just how it looked, and since previouse dual enigne heavy fighter designs failed to preform as desired. Thus the P38 was regulated to the Pacific front were it preformed great.

Want im trying to say is guys play it safe use the cost saving measures provided by the 40 tonner, trust me it wont please everybody but the complaints angainst it well be mostly nullified. Not perfect world but hey to try and squeeze as much as possible on a budget mech i think is foolhardy for the first design we do.
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Warclaw

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #158 on: 06 December 2015, 19:12:21 »
well...if we are willing to accept the risk of an unproven engine and go with the 200 that's on bench testing right now, I have a 50 tonner that I think works well as a support mech:

bracket fire is somewhat necessary, but fairly simple, as when the LRM's drop under minimum range, the medium lasers are just starting to come into their mid-range.
The Rocket Launchers are there as a last resort defense weapon, and/or a final finisher for those targets that just need a little extra push.
 At a little over 3.4 Million C-bills, it comes under budget comfortably, even allowing for adjustments due to purchasing some components out of house.

Trooper-50 Mk-1

Mass: 50 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/X-X-D-A
Production Year: 0
Cost: 3,429,250 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,155

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 200 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  LRM-15
    1  Large Laser
    2  Medium Lasers
    2  Rocket Launcher 10s
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      83 points                5.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                200                       8.50
    Walking MP: 4
    Running MP: 6
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             14                        4.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 1 HD, 1 LT, 2 RA, 1 LL, 1 RL
Gyro:               Standard                                               2.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 168                 10.50

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     16           24       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  7         
                                           L/R Torso     12           18       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  6         
                                             L/R Arm     8            16       
                                             L/R Leg     12           24       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser                                 CT        3         1         1.00
2 Rocket Launcher 10s                        RT        6         2         1.00
LRM-15                                       LT        5         3         7.00
Large Laser                                  RA        8         2         5.00
Medium Laser                                 LA        3         1         1.00
@LRM-15 (16)                                 LT        -         2         2.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 32

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 12
4          2       3       1       0      2     0   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1


Daryk

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #159 on: 06 December 2015, 19:30:51 »
I like everything except the risk of the engine being bench tested, but I don't think that should stop us from proposing it.

Koren-Gagin

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #160 on: 06 December 2015, 22:55:24 »
Ok i can get behind the MK I easly could we also provide a variant using the 240 since it is already in production. (Just suggesting another way to reduce long term cost per mech.)  Also the 240 would prorvide a slightly faster varient could make what 1|12 ratio and possibly removing the rockets for two more MLs.

But yeah the MK I that was suggested gets a big fat approval from me.
"History is written by the victors, the defeated live it"

croaker

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #161 on: 07 December 2015, 16:01:44 »
I have to say the 60-tonner makes more sense to me. Dual LLs, some SRM tubes, and a couple of MLs, and it should make a good trooper. Jump jets if we've got 'em.

Vehrec

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #162 on: 08 December 2015, 13:56:04 »
-Consensus Failure.
-Multiplicity of options.
-Delay, Delay, Delay.
---------------------------

You groan and let your head drop into your hands.  "Great, this is just...fantastic.  Why didn't I hear about this earlier?  Why didn't they mention it at the meeting?"

The others look at each other and shrug.  "Need to Know.  The consensus probably was you didn't need to know about a weapon system that hadn't been accepted yet, even if it's been on the drawing boards and in testing for two years.  We've had to use imported and dummy lasers, so if we can finally get our domestic one approved, we'll be ready for a full-up test and a decision from the military by the end of the month.  Shi-Sem Heavy Metal are pushing a faster design with comparable armor and weapons, but it's another damn hovercraft and they'll never get it over the required obstacles without a set of jump jets.  Actually, you should probably get briefed on their designs too-They have a couple of little Hovercraft, the T-37 and the T-41, that are good for open ground but really cannot take a hit worth a damn."  Another person you haven't caught the name of cuts in. "Be fair, we aren't exactly long on durable designs ourselves.  Aside from our Big Iron, there just hasn't been a call for heavy vehicles."  The first person pulls up a picture of a hovercraft that's been blown up on his note-puter and spins it around to show the room.  "That's fair, that's fair, but remind me when we stuffed twelve tons of weapons into a thirty ton box, and then wrapped it with less than four tons of armor?"

You give your head a tired shake.  "Look I really don't know what will be easy to sell, what stands a chance of winning the competition... I need to go back and take a look at my notes, I've got a bunch of mid-weight trooper designs sketched out but this was the one I had the most work done on."

Niklos thumps the table with his fist.  "I have an idea.  We switch the order of the modifications.  We do the short or long range missile design first, and then throw in the main-line one as a variant.  That changes the focus of the primary design and gets us some extra breathing room for variety.  And we can definitely stand to have a more mobile LRM launcher.  The military never stops complaining about how limited the terrain traversal on the T-41 is whenever they take it out of flat ground.  Extra armor is a bonus.  What do you think, huh?"

Mr. Sanjiv looks at you and shifts.  "I can see this matter requires more reflection.  I'll move that we table it until next week, but you had better have a good decision by then.  You can use this discussion to get some input from your team members.  We're expecting them to arrive by Thursday at the latest once the last of the background checks and security arrangements are complete.  Use the time to work the problem, build some camaraderie, but I will expect a hard answer first thing next week, and a plan to actually implement the design you come up with.

Without a decision about that, the meeting breaks up afterwards and you all adjourn back to your side of the building to get to work.  Your new underlings glance at you expectantly, waiting for orders...

Code: [Select]
[ ] Distribute your old Mech design projects, textbooks, and see what they know and what they don't know.
[ ] Ask about the competition- you've picked up that Shi-Sem are fond of hovercraft, but will they make
ultra-fast lights for as many roles as possible or try and make a LAM?
[ ] Grab a ball and head out to the courtyard to kick a few ideas around about the design concepts you have.
[ ] Give them a warm-up project and retire to your office to brood and think this over.
*Insert support for fashionable faction of the week here*

Daryk

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #163 on: 08 December 2015, 18:52:32 »
I'm for option two... clearly people around here know more than they've told Minako so far.

Koren-Gagin

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #164 on: 08 December 2015, 19:47:28 »
Option 3 if it is a group thing but if not option 2
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Warclaw

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #165 on: 08 December 2015, 19:55:26 »
option 2

Vehrec

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #166 on: 11 December 2015, 13:36:18 »
You take a seat on the edge of a table-several are scattered around the office, along with a few whiteboards and look at the others.  Four men, three women, counting yourself, most of them young and locally educated-but their instructors at least went to the best schools in the Inner Sphere.  All professionals with experience under their belts-and probably also insiders with a view of how the local procurements process will shake out.

You spend a while pumping them for information and engaging in some speculation.  Shi-Sem Heavy Metal is a younger, more diversified company.  While their precursor, Shika-Kama Motors, made mostly civilian trucks, Shi-Sem sells a far broader spectrum of products-everything from cars to hovecraft to helicopters, tilt-rotors and jets.  Not terribly great jets mind, but something.  They picked up all the artisianal Battlemech part production that had kept the local pirates afloat, and built that up into actual component production facilities on the planets Yama (fusion reactor parts and electronics) Ogun (Armor) and New Mali (chasis/internal structure) and adapted them to their existing lines of products and new hovercraft to patrol the huge areas of newly conquered territory that came with the jump from one planet to five.  While the pirates had been rooted out quickly, their traditional power structures in some cases ran much deeper-someone mentions Steel Buddhists, which is you first introduction to what is apparently a violently militant sect dedicated to the principle of Might Makes Right-and if overt might is insufficient, they aren't shy about assassination either.

In any case, the need for high-mobility patrol vehicles and abundant investment funds had allowed them to grow rapidly and obtain several lucrative contracts-though not without consequence.  They had apparently been caught attempting to steal several designs from Inner Sphere companies, and were now persona non-grata among the major arms manufacturers.  Nonetheless, they have a sizable reserve of assets, even after investing in a new semi-automated production facility for Battlemechs.  In terms of both capacity and production efficiency, they'll have a demonstrable advantage over your company.  And of course, there was their investment in design hardware and staff.  Their staff is probably comparable to what your talent-scouts have managed to get-but their computer systems, as previously mentioned are near top of the line.

As for what designs they'll put forward-well, that depends.  They'll definitely low-ball the Militia design, aiming to undercut your price point and secure a big contract.  They might favor jump jets.  They will certainly favor endo-steel if it is available, and might even gamble on getting a design ready before the problems are ironed out of the testing samples.  Weapons are a mixed bag-they can't licence anything from the Inner Sphere without some serious under the table deals, so there won't be any surprises there, but they only make LRMs in house.  They will need to buy from a subcontractor their lasers, autocannon and SRMs, and that subcontractor will probably be under the BNA umbrella, so there might be some advance warning if they go for those things.  Their opinion on heavy designs is unknown-heck, they've never made anything heavier than a 35 ton fighter.

A couple of your engineers offer to draw up some speculative designs based on their known proclivities, but a few others think that it would be better to get their hands in if you can suggest some problems to work.  Niklos meanwhile, thinks that if he gets to poking his contacts and friends, he might get some warning before Monday on whether or not the new large laser type will be accepted-once the basic range and firepower benchmarks are down and they carry out some basic shock and vibration testing, they'll just point it out to sea and test it to destruction by firing until it melts or the lenses crack or something breaks. 

Code: [Select]
[ ] Approve speculative competitive design studies-think like your rivals.  You'll be able to exploit their weaknesses.
[ ] Class is in session, start teaching these guys something about designing battlemechs.
[ ] Networking is essential-let Niklos get on the phone and start talking to his friends.
*Insert support for fashionable faction of the week here*

Koren-Gagin

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #167 on: 11 December 2015, 15:33:07 »
Well option option 3 and while Niklos is out about how about a little bit of option 2 getting everyone a little battlemech design 101 course. Like doing a theoretical  design giving the team a chance to start working together and see how putting their knowledge into a single design will work while Minako thinks on the final choice for the design to go with.

So definitely option 3.
"History is written by the victors, the defeated live it"

Daryk

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #168 on: 11 December 2015, 18:32:45 »
I'm in favor of all of the above, and don't see why we can't do all three:  let Niklos kite off to poke his contacts, give a little design 101, then assign the competitive design studies as homework.

Warclaw

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #169 on: 11 December 2015, 20:47:54 »
I'm in favor of all of the above, and don't see why we can't do all three:  let Niklos kite off to poke his contacts, give a little design 101, then assign the competitive design studies as homework.

Agreed

Vehrec

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #170 on: 11 December 2015, 21:03:48 »
I'm in favor of all of the above, and don't see why we can't do all three:  let Niklos kite off to poke his contacts, give a little design 101, then assign the competitive design studies as homework.
Have you ever heard the saying 'have your cake and eat it too?'
*Insert support for fashionable faction of the week here*

Daryk

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #171 on: 12 December 2015, 08:38:05 »
Indeed, and have even pulled it off on occasion.  I seriously don't see how letting Niklos kite off to make calls interferes with the other two.  If those two are mutually exclusive, then I'm for the competitive design studies over battlemech design 101.

Vehrec

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Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #172 on: 12 December 2015, 19:48:21 »
...Okay I think I can spin this.
---
You know some people, thanks to the success of various Battlemech simulation games, think that designing a new Mech is about as simple as picking a weight class and speed, filling a blocky set of body parts with components that occupy 'criticals' and coating lovingly with armor.  They think that, for instance, that you can redesign an existing chasis easily, that replacing a small laser with a medium just means shaving half a ton of armor off somewhere.  They think that making a hundred tons of myomer, ceramics, metal and artifical diamond composite stand up and walk is easy.

Those people are, in your opinion, idiots who have allowed themselves to be seduced by the variability of Mechs in service, who don't realize how easy it is to screw things up at step one.  And you set up to teach these dudes just how untrue that is when you ask them if the Shi-Sem design will be Dynamic or Static.  And when they flounder on their explanations for why (it would have to be dynamic if they're using Endo-steel because endo-steel has a lower cross-sectional strength per centimeter), you hound them around the room a couple of times.  Every time they crank out a new 'speculative' design, you barrage them with questions about how exactly it will be executed-should the SRM launchers be firmly bolted to the frame, or allowed to float in cradles of shock-absorbing myomer?  Do you leave space behind the armor for the Mech to move, or fit it as tightly as you dare and hope that nothing chafes?  How, exactly, do you fit the myomers for a mech that will clock in at over 120 kilometers per hour at a run?  Niklos is too distracted by this to get his phone calls to accomplish much and his wheeling and dealing turns up only a 'it looks good so far' by the time you're packing up to head back to the hotel.  Everyone else is tired, worn out-and contemplative, reminded of how much of a learning experience this is going to be.

Still, you got some interesting desgins, to be sure.

Code: [Select]
Spec-1

Mass: 25 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/E-X-E-A
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 1,821,667 C-Bills
Battle Value: 502

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 200 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 86.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 129.6 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  Medium Laser
    1  SRM-2
    2  Machine Guns
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                    43 points                1.50
    Internal Locations: 1 HD, 1 CT, 3 LT, 3 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA
Engine:             Fusion Engine                200                       8.50
    Walking MP: 8
    Running MP: 12
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 1 LL, 1 RL
Gyro:               Standard                                               2.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV -  72                  4.50

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     8            10       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  3         
                                           L/R Torso     6            9         
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  2         
                                             L/R Arm     4            6         
                                             L/R Leg     6            8         

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SRM-2                                        CT        2         1         1.00
Machine Gun                                  RT        0         1         0.50
Medium Laser                                 LT        3         1         1.00
Machine Gun                                  RA        0         1         0.50
@MG (1/2) (100)                              RT        -         1         0.50
@SRM-2 (Frag) (50)                           RT        -         1         1.00
@SRM-2 (50)                                  RT        -         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 24

Code: [Select]
Spec-2

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/D-F-E-A
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 4,581,760 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,301

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 180 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 90 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    2  LRM-20s
    2  LRM-10s
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                    99 points                3.00
    Internal Locations: 1 CT, 3 LT, 3 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA, 1 LL
Engine:             Fusion Engine                180                       7.00
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 3 Standard
    Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 1 LT, 1 RT                                   3.00
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 RL
Gyro:               Standard                                               2.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 128                  8.00

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     20           18       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  5         
                                           L/R Torso     14           17       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  4         
                                             L/R Arm     10           12       
                                             L/R Leg     14           15       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LRM-20                                       RT        6         5        10.00
LRM-20                                       LT        6         5        10.00
LRM-10                                       RA        4         2         5.00
LRM-10                                       LA        4         2         5.00
@LRM-10 (12)                                 RT        -         1         1.00
@LRM-20 (6)                                  RT        -         1         1.00
@LRM-10 (12)                                 LT        -         1         1.00
@LRM-20 (6)                                  LT        -         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 9

Code: [Select]
Spec-3

Mass: 45 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/D-F-E-A
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 3,426,640 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,186

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 180 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  LRM-20
    1  Large Laser
    2  Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                    75 points                2.50
    Internal Locations: 3 LT, 3 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA, 1 LL, 1 RL
Engine:             Fusion Engine                180                       7.00
    Walking MP: 4
    Running MP: 6
    Jumping MP: 4 Standard
    Jump Jet Locations: 2 CT, 1 LT, 1 RT                                   2.00
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 RL
Gyro:               Standard                                               2.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 152                  9.50

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     14           21       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  6         
                                           L/R Torso     11           16       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  6         
                                             L/R Arm     7            14       
                                             L/R Leg     11           22       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser                                 HD        3         1         1.00
LRM-20                                       RT        6         5        10.00
Large Laser                                  RA        8         2         5.00
Medium Laser                                 LA        3         1         1.00
@LRM-20 (12)                                 RT        -         2         2.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 15

One more, you have an evening all to yourself-the question is how to spend it.  After you finally pick up your rifle that is.
Code: [Select]
[ ] Early to bed, Early to Rise, you've got an exhaustive week ahead of you-and an NAIS graduate to welcome in the morn.
[ ] Spend some time and scratch out a design that you can use to teach your co-workers a thing or two with, even if it might come in behind on some of the requirements.
[ ] You heard people mention Yama as if it were a curse today, but also as if it were a planet... 
Just what kind of environments are your designs going to have to operate in?
[ ] Weekends are all well and good, but let's find some write-in entertainment.
*Insert support for fashionable faction of the week here*

Koren-Gagin

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 149
  • Gotta do what a urbie gotta do!
Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #173 on: 12 December 2015, 20:24:21 »
Ok Spec 1 looks like a Locust clone to me which is all good but at 25 tons and just under 1.9 mill C-Bills which with us having a price ceiling of 4 million M-Bills (which, correct me if I'm wrong was said to have a  1 to 20 exchange rate to the C-Bill) thus bringing this the closes to the budget per mech; yet still over budget but we can fiat that a bit if needed.

Spec 2 as designed is no go for me since only having LRMs seems like just asking for trouble if it gets seperated from armor and infantry support. Which means this design would be regulated to defense or tactical offensive support role. Which if you have other mechs on the feild having a mech or two like this one also along is great but not the primary.

But Spec 2 due to its weight, does allow for modification since we should be able to make variations alot easier than if we went with Spec 1 or 3. Thus we could get more 3 longevity out of Spec 2.

Spec 3 what can i say i have advocated for it already, its the design that lokks best and could get the contract the quickest and without much issue. Since its the T-50 mech version the feild commanders will have easiest time of all three to learning it capabilities since its weapons are  already in use. Also logistical side makes this the preferred designed to me.

So after all that its Spec 3 that gets my vote total focus with a maybe to the Locust clone followed by spec 2 with a only if they ask for it by name.


For the weekend will Minako has been working her *** off thus She needs a drink and should invite Niklos along, letim get lose but stop a hour before final call (that if this backwater banana republic planet's, bars have a final call) if not maybe midnight or 1 o'clock should be the lastest.

Also is Niklos married? If not maybe Minako could try for some after bar hopin "fun time"   ;)
"History is written by the victors, the defeated live it"

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37060
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #174 on: 12 December 2015, 20:53:00 »
If these are the competitive design studies I think they are, we're in luck.  The locust clone, while the most efficient tonnage, apparently missed the "long range skirmish only" specification.  The LRM machine is too slow for anything I understand the government to want.  Spec-3 looks dangerous to us on the surface, but relies on three pieces of prototype technology that still need work (endo-steel, the 180 engine, and the large laser).  That said, technological readiness is a harder sell than battlefield capability, so AdS looks to be our toughest competition.

As far as what to do tonight, I'd think Minako would be a little taken aback by the mistakes made by the team doing the competitive design studies.  I vote for scratching out a design to teach them a bit more about what they're really up against (option 2).

Warclaw

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 223
Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #175 on: 12 December 2015, 22:00:44 »
I thought the budget was in C-Bills, Not M-Bills.  Clarification please?

As for the competitive designs....

#1:  If the Locals wanted a Locust, they could buy them cheaper on the open market, EVERYBODY makes Locusts...and there's a reason for that.  They die almost as fast as you build them.  While the speed is nice, the minimal armor and mediocre armament relegate this to a scouting role.  All well and good if that's what you want, but pretty poor for anything else.

#2: 60 LRMs is a good throw weight.  Too bad to do it they had to skimp on mobility, armor, defensive armament, and endurance....assuming they can get the Endo Steel AND the prototype engine working properly and available in sufficient numbers.  Plus, anything that gets inside 6 hexes of this steaming pile will eat it alive.  It won't be able to effectively defend itself even against a Wasp or Stinger, so it WILL require a decent escort/bodyguard unit.

#3:  The best of the three, but still lacking.  Armor is good for its size, but at the end of the day, its still a 45 ton mech...there are limits to how much it can carry.  Unfortunately, its mobility is insufficient to compensate.  Weapons load is pretty good for a 45 tonner...too bad if it tries to use it any where near to capacity it'll quickly overheat and either shut down or cook off the ammo.  Endurance ammo-wise is barely adequate.  Decent enough for a skirmisher, but not sufficient for a line-of-battle mech.  They'd have done better to drop the 20-rack to a 15 and accepted the lower throw weight in exchange for a significantly deeper ammo bay.

As for the evening's activities, I vote #2, with the design be the Trooper Mk-1 (Post #158).
Does also depend on two components that are still being tested, but are looking good so far.  Compared to the 45 tonner its faster, more heavily armored, comparably armed, can maintain a better battle-tempo, and has deeper ammo bins....for only about 3,000 more C-bills a mech.

Vehrec

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1198
  • Mr. Flibble is Very Cross
Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #176 on: 13 December 2015, 00:55:10 »
Yes, the budget is in C-bills-and don't mistake local 'weak' currency for a week economy.  A single Maravedí might buy less, but that can play to your advantage as an exporter.  And it's still enough to buy a cheap sandwich or a drink from a vending machine.  This isn't Zimbabwe, plagued by hyperinflation, but they're not about to deflate the currency to get it closer to a 1:1 exchange rate with the major house bills. :P

And yes, the designs have obvious flaws-they're off the cuff concepts made by people who aren't used to considering the heat loads of missiles for one thing.  This is the 'throwing stuff at the wall, seeing what sticks' phase of things.  What sticks might smell.
*Insert support for fashionable faction of the week here*

Koren-Gagin

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 149
  • Gotta do what a urbie gotta do!
Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #177 on: 13 December 2015, 01:35:03 »
Ok so the money thing is done, and we know what stage we are at designing our first mech.

So lets look into this a bit while Spec 3 seems the most promising at first and most likely to get a vote of confidence. But whats our budget for a build prototype this well surely be the most important to what we well design and display as what we will go for.

Now unless my i understanding of RL military contract bids work is faulty usually  there is a cost bid and practical application bid. Usually said company  well build the prototype at cost to the company. Then when testing it well have military and civilian personal (aka yhose on some appropriations committee or the leader "El Presidente" well be there if its of great significance)

So next day Minako when she has a chance to speak with the boss she go about finding these things out. Since having a mech that lokks perfect on paper but when built has many issues like the myomer tension  is off or the slab of armor is chafing the skeleton and possibly causing micro fractures. At prototype build this is where those military techs well most usefull.

Also why are we going with a material gor the frame we cannot be sure will be ready. Why not presume to use standard for now and if the endo becomes viable than we use it. Look i know endo comes with own set of issues when building a mech but if what supply we have is unreliable i sorry but the 180 engine is still being tested, the LL is being tested, we got a team of guys not well practiced. If we were to row the dice right now we would need a like a pair of 20 sided dice to make the need number.

Guys it great to go for the fancy stuff but endo is new on block in the Inner Sphere come one it has to reasonable to assume if the power houses of technology reaearch being done by the successor states took time. It should be a miracle our endo steel gets completed and ready to use quickly.

Of course these are my opinions and just dont want us to get a little munchkin on the tech development side than we already have done and are expecting to do so.
"History is written by the victors, the defeated live it"

Sharpnel

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13414
Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #178 on: 13 December 2015, 02:00:21 »
If these are the competitive design studies I think they are, we're in luck.  The locust clone, while the most efficient tonnage, apparently missed the "long range skirmish only" specification.  The LRM machine is too slow for anything I understand the government to want.  Spec-3 looks dangerous to us on the surface, but relies on three pieces of prototype technology that still need work (endo-steel, the 180 engine, and the large laser).  That said, technological readiness is a harder sell than battlefield capability, so AdS looks to be our toughest competition.

As far as what to do tonight, I'd think Minako would be a little taken aback by the mistakes made by the team doing the competitive design studies.  I vote for scratching out a design to teach them a bit more about what they're really up against (option 2).
Bump the Spec-3 to a 50-tonner using the 200 fusion engine keeping the loadout the same and increasing armor, heat sinks or ammo if there is tonnage available (at work so no SSW). An interested reader's perspective.
Consigliere Trygg Bender, CRD-3BL Crusader, The Blazer Mafia
Takehiro 'Taco' Uchimiya, SHD-2H Shadow Hawk 'Taco', Crimson Oasis Trading Company

"Of what use is a dream, if not a blueprint for courageous action" -Adam West
As I get older, I realize that I'm not as good as I once was.
"Life is too short to be living someone else's dream" - Hugh Hefner

Koren-Gagin

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 149
  • Gotta do what a urbie gotta do!
Re: 'Mech Engineer Quest
« Reply #179 on: 13 December 2015, 02:22:15 »
Bump the Spec-3 to a 50-tonner using the 200 fusion engine keeping the loadout the same and increasing armor, heat sinks or ammo if there is tonnage available (at work so no SSW). An interested reader's perspective.

Far as i know we dont have a 200 rated engine on hand, unless i missed it.
"History is written by the victors, the defeated live it"