Author Topic: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I  (Read 18065 times)

Jellico

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WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« on: 10 November 2013, 02:02:56 »
Roughly contemporaneous with the Dart and Dreadnought the Black Lion I is one of the Terran Hegemony’s first generation of ships. Supposedly designed by James McKenna, the Black Lion is intended to provide a more manoeuvrable version of the Dreadnought. It became the Admiral’s preferred flag ships and set the standard for all future Hegemony cruisers. Well that is the theory. Let us look at the reality.

The first point to be made is that the Black Lion is no more manoeuvrable than a Dreadnought. At least not in game terms. On the other hand the Black Lion shows remarkable commonality with the battleship. The auto cannon load is virtually identical, with streamlining to NAC20s being the only difference. The AAA fit is basically identical, based around auto cannon. This is important as laser systems were very new at this time. An interesting development is the missile system. The 2300 Dreadnought lacks capital missiles. The 2305 Dart mounts Killer Whales in the forward arc. The 2315 Black Lion mounts heavy triple batteries in the quarters. These heavy missile fits will become a feature of all future heavy cruisers up until the Luxor in 2727. Notably the abortive Quixote battle cruiser adopted a similar approach to capital missiles while later frigates largely abandoned them. Compared to the Dart the Black Lion is in a totally different class. The Black Lion has 28% more broadside weight, with more crit capable weapon bays than the Dart. The battleship roots of the Black Lion are most clear here.
Defensively the Black Lion is tougher than the Dreadnought with only 67 tons less armour and far stronger internal structure. This is probably due to the experimental nature of the Dreadnought. Later cruisers all had similar structural integrity to the Black Lion. More important is the armour layout. While pre-Reunification War ships tended to focus their armour forward, the Black Lion focused its armour on the broadsides. This would later become a defining feature of Star League WarShips, which can be traced back through the Aegis back to the Black Lion. The Black Lion is still not as tough as the Dart. The difference becomes clear later.

Compared to the Dreadnought and Dart the Black Lion has very limited combat persistence. It only has a fraction of the earlier ships’ cargo capacity. The heavy internal structure of the Dart begins to make sense here as it was a far ranging, hard traveling, work horse. The Black Lion seems more of a thoroughbred in comparison. Made to win battles and little else. It is interesting to note that this thoroughbred nature would be a common feature to all successful SLDF cruisers like the Aegis, Black Lion II, Avatar and Luxor. Failures like the Quixote and Cameron all featured far more cargo capacity.
Built in an age of flux, the Black Lion lacked docking collars. Not surprising considering the times, but it is interesting to note the Dart (designed for independent operations) received them. Implicit in this is that the Black Lion was not intended to operate independently. Rounding out the Black Lion’s fighting capabilities were bays for 24 Small Craft identical to those of the Dreadnought.

The Black Lion I served Terran Hegemony until the refitted Aegis entered service in 2582. At this time they were sold off alongside those Aegis’ that were not refitted. Where the Aegis was a recognisably modern ship the Black Lion had aged poorly. While still manoeuvrable with solid anti-fighter weapons, the armour and weapons compared poorly. The refitted Aegis combined more armour with 28% ranged broadside firepower and even more close in. Handled well they were adequate if expensive and antiquated. The Golden Age made it hard to justify keeping them and most were scrapped for their germanium.

In use Black Lions occupy a middle ground between modern destroyers and cruisers. They are approximately comparable to a Sovetskii Soyuz, though the later ship has far more modern refinements. Pick on the weak and avoid the strong. AA remains solid and the Black Lion is no more vulnerable than a Kirishima or Dante. The killers remain the NACs and missiles, not the auto cannon. The big problem is that in the modern environment a Black Lion could be left with no supporting assets due to its lack of docking collars. This is as true in 2750 as 3050.  In 2400 the Black Lion was a cheap alternative to a battleship. At least until the Monsoon redefined the type. By 2750 it is a glorified destroyer too big to be expendable.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #1 on: 10 November 2013, 08:09:01 »
Didn't even know the design is that ancient.
Quite interesting that it consolidates ACs compared to the Dreadnought.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #2 on: 10 November 2013, 08:10:39 »
What book is the Black Lion Mk 1 in? Very intersting article. :)
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #3 on: 10 November 2013, 08:25:20 »

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #4 on: 10 November 2013, 18:52:27 »
I hope we get the Riga II somewhere in that series....

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #5 on: 10 November 2013, 20:03:58 »
Nice write up, Jellico.

I'm happy that the early Hegemony Battlecruiser finally saw the day of light.  This thing was work horse for McKenna's big ambitions to truely form the Terran Hegemony.  It would be interesting to see this big boat in action against other early WarShips of the time period.  I guess the Liao's Battleship is properly only one who encounter this thing during glory days.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #6 on: 10 November 2013, 20:58:31 »
with AutoCannon based AAA and big naval Autocannons for anti-ship work, i suspect TPTB were watching a lot of battlestar Galactica when they designed this ship. certainly gives off a very "Battlestar" vibe.. especially when you consider it has a larger, more advanced brother, not unlike the Galactica and the Pegasus. the only thing missing from the comparison is fighter bays for the Black Lion I, though it's possible Jellico just forgot to mention them.

Jellico

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #7 on: 10 November 2013, 21:04:20 »
Rounding out the Black Lion’s fighting capabilities were bays for 24 Small Craft identical to those of the Dreadnought.


The Black Lion I doesn't have fighter bays, though the Small Craft bays can be used.

Reunification War's Dreadnought was Galactica homage. Too much so in some minds.

Also you need to understand the tech of the time. I would need to check specific items, but lasers were very new at this time. Basically a designer was limited to NACs and ACs.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #8 on: 10 November 2013, 22:04:54 »
Don't forget capital missiles. ;)

Also, adding energy weapons were almost immediately thrown out after considering the later Black Lion.  The Black Lion I was designed to be both a a direct extension of the Dreadnought program, but also as an older vessel that could have directly inspired the later Black Lion II (NAC Boogalo) of the 27th Century.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #9 on: 10 November 2013, 22:29:28 »

Reunification War's Dreadnought was Galactica homage. Too much so in some minds.


Well, obviously they are ultimately the no fun allowed types.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #10 on: 10 November 2013, 23:14:21 »
At least no one has created a circular or y-shaped WarShip loaded with Angel Light Strike Fighters (TRO 3039)
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #11 on: 10 November 2013, 23:18:42 »
Well, obviously they are ultimately the no fun allowed types.

The obvious reason is that if everything in Battletech was a reference, then how would others reference Battletech?
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #12 on: 10 November 2013, 23:31:48 »
The obvious reason is that if everything in Battletech was a reference, then how would others reference Battletech?

I understand that.   But two sentences never killed anything... plus, there are plenty of others in all the books to fill a book of just references if one looks with anything but the most casual of readings.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #13 on: 11 November 2013, 00:28:11 »
Go read P78 of Liberation of Terra 1. :-X

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #14 on: 11 November 2013, 01:14:21 »
Yeah, that whole page is nothing but one big nuBSG reference, effectively summing up the entire premiere miniseries.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #15 on: 11 November 2013, 06:50:49 »
I now stand educated, thank you for pointing that out.   Now it lingers as something quite obvious now but in five or six years, might not be so obvious to newer fans.   Much like some of the references in earlier books are not so obvious to players who pick the books up.   Plus, the ship does meet quite a different fate in the end.   But again, thank you for pointing it out for me, I must have missed the short story as I only seemed to have remembered Dreadnaught's class entry in Reunification War, thus the two sentence comment.
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #16 on: 11 November 2013, 07:42:48 »
Yeah, that whole page is nothing but one big nuBSG reference, effectively summing up the entire premiere miniseries.

Still quite fun
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sillybrit

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #17 on: 11 November 2013, 11:03:37 »
Also you need to understand the tech of the time. I would need to check specific items, but lasers were very new at this time. Basically a designer was limited to NACs and ACs.

AC2s, Medium Lasers and Small Lasers all came out circa 2300, which puts me in two minds regarding the inclusion of the AC2s on the Dreadnought, but not the lasers. On the one hand, the in-universe designers and admirals were perhaps just more comfortable with ACs due to the AC5 being 50 years old at this point, giving plenty of experience of their field usage in space, with the AC2 probably viewed as just a variation of the AC5. On the other hand, with the Dreadnought being the showcase of Terran might and technology, why not flaunt all the new shinies and include a few lasers; even if they failed to live up to expectation there was plenty of other armament to pick up the slack.

On the gripping hand, an all-ballistic armament is a deliberate theme and perhaps better sits in a real world reader's mind as more primitive, thus suiting the image of the first true WarShip class. That gives the only comfortable explanation for the Black Lion I, which really has no excuse to have avoided the lasers given that they would have been out in the field for over a decade at the time of its launch.

LRMs fall into the same boat as the lasers, as they were also introduced circa 2300.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #18 on: 11 November 2013, 14:27:16 »
Might also be worth mentioning that at the very least the concept of the "Big gun go boom" variety of naval asset is well over 800 years old at this point, regardless of the actual introductory date of the AC/2.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #19 on: 11 November 2013, 14:34:57 »
Yeah, that whole page is nothing but one big nuBSG reference, effectively summing up the entire premiere miniseries.

Well, all of that HAD happened before, and would happen again...
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #20 on: 11 November 2013, 14:37:31 »
Well, if you can find any references to original Galactica in any of the Housebooks...
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #21 on: 11 November 2013, 15:49:38 »
Quote from: sillybrit
That gives the only comfortable explanation for the Black Lion I, which really has no excuse to have avoided the lasers given that they would have been out in the field for over a decade at the time of its launch.

Question: why did the Black Lion II carry no energy weapons?
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #22 on: 11 November 2013, 16:53:51 »
Question: why did the Black Lion II carry no energy weapons?

Off the top of my head, I would suspect the reason would probably have something to do with the flop that was the Cameron class Battlecruisers. Not mounting energy weapons would allow you to have a smaller and less complex energy distribution system, which was the whole reason the Cameron class had that big scandal in the first place.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #23 on: 11 November 2013, 17:52:40 »
Except it isn't like energy weapons weren't clearly understood by that point, or even that the people who flubbed the Cameron built the Black Lion II.  And it isn't like Boeing Interstellar, who built the Black Lion II, hadn't used energy weapons on their various Lola I Class destroyers or the Riga class frigate.

There's also the tiny problem that the Black Lion's TR3057 fluff mentioned how well it performed during the Reunification War, which ended 94 years before the 2691 construction date of the Black Lion II per TR2750 and TR3057.  That meant that, like the Dreadnought,the Black Lion I would have served in the Reunification War, and been beholden to the no energy weapons limitation.

It would also have been vaguely odd for the namesake to lose energy weapons while the original had them, and, like the Black Lion II, emphasized that the original I was meant for naval beatdowns.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #24 on: 11 November 2013, 18:02:26 »
AC2s, Medium Lasers and Small Lasers all came out circa 2300, which puts me in two minds regarding the inclusion of the AC2s on the Dreadnought, but not the lasers. On the one hand, the in-universe designers and admirals were perhaps just more comfortable with ACs due to the AC5 being 50 years old at this point, giving plenty of experience of their field usage in space, with the AC2 probably viewed as just a variation of the AC5. On the other hand, with the Dreadnought being the showcase of Terran might and technology, why not flaunt all the new shinies and include a few lasers; even if they failed to live up to expectation there was plenty of other armament to pick up the slack.

Some misuse of equipment in TROs around these dates forced some erratas which confused the issue.

Original Tech Manual
2250 AC2
2300 AC5
2400 Medium and Small Laser
2430 Large Laser.

Revised Tech Manual
2316 Large Laser

Original Tac Ops
Circa 2200 Naval ACs
2305 Naval Lasers
2358 Naval PPCs

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #25 on: 11 November 2013, 18:03:38 »
Question: why did the Black Lion II carry no energy weapons?

Setting aside the fluff reason that it allowed a lighter power system, something the construction rules sort of support given that the heat sinks are kind of meant to represent the power system, the reason that the Black Lion II mounts no capital energy weapons is that it went for the most bang for the buck in the form of NACs. Ton for ton, NACs are the best capital damage dealers, but pay for that with a shorter range plus ammo requirements.

The Black Lion II then doesn't mount any standard energy weapons because it doesn't mount any standard weapons at all, keeping to the main SLDF theme of leaving anti-fighter work to DropShips and ASFs.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #26 on: 11 November 2013, 18:48:31 »
Yeah, but, as per Jellico's post, standard size energy weapons weren't quite available in 2315: they debuted a year later, and skipping prototype weapons on your shiny new battle cruiser makes sense.  Sharing parts with the Dreadnought also helped keep costs down, and simply reused "proven" components.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #27 on: 11 November 2013, 19:11:30 »
Yeah, but, as per Jellico's post, standard size energy weapons weren't quite available in 2315: they debuted a year later, and skipping prototype weapons on your shiny new battle cruiser makes sense.  Sharing parts with the Dreadnought also helped keep costs down, and simply reused "proven" components.

Small and Medium Lasers were available in 2300, so would be 15 years old by the time of the Black Lion I. It's only the Large Laser that came out after the lead ship of the class.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #28 on: 11 November 2013, 19:42:32 »
An argument could maybe be made for the small laser...if any other TH WarShip of the era had point defense. The Dreadnought, Dart, Bonaventure, Vigilant, Lola I and Aegis certainly didn't.

Medium lasers are too limited in range for a big battlecruiser. They also don't really feature on its contemporaries.  When designing a ship from the early 2300s, it's usually best to make it fit into its era.  Standard laser batteries would not have fit.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #29 on: 11 November 2013, 19:54:23 »
and 15 years before commissioning is a pretty limited window.. odds are the design spec's and requirements for the Black Lion I were finalized only a few years after lasers became available. not enough time for anyone to figure out how to apply them to large craft naval warfare yet.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #30 on: 11 November 2013, 21:13:03 »
Black Lion I is easy to place. We have the Dreadnought and the Black Lion is an obvious knockoff.

The Black Lion II is harder. It was designed without stats after all. The all auto cannon element was probably thematic, to make it stand out from the other ships in TRO2750.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #31 on: 12 November 2013, 00:45:16 »
There's also the tiny problem that the Black Lion's TR3057 fluff mentioned how well it performed during the Reunification War, which ended 94 years before the 2691 construction date of the Black Lion II per TR2750 and TR3057.  That meant that, like the Dreadnought,the Black Lion I would have served in the Reunification War, and been beholden to the no energy weapons limitation.

I always chalked that up to yet another infamous error/typo--I thought it was actually referring to the Second Periphery Uprising, which is the only major conflict the Black Lion II would've had a chance to fight in (unless I'm forgetting something else).

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #32 on: 12 November 2013, 10:19:57 »
Am i mental or something?  :D I keep thinking of Black Lion from the Voltron force when read Black Lion...
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #33 on: 12 November 2013, 10:21:42 »
Well, now you know what colors to paint a Terran one in... ^-^
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #34 on: 12 November 2013, 11:14:47 »
Well, now you know what colors to paint a Terran one in... ^-^

...I'm not sure whether to hate you or thank you.  Going to need yellow paint, and blue for the heraldic crest.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #35 on: 12 November 2013, 11:54:47 »
...I'm not sure whether to hate you or thank you.
Going to need yellow paint...

You just answered your own question there... ;)
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #36 on: 12 November 2013, 11:57:43 »
You just answered your own question there... ;)

Both?
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #37 on: 12 November 2013, 11:59:55 »
Yellow is the color of hate.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #38 on: 12 November 2013, 12:17:59 »
That puts an odd spin on Bumblebee, and my Bug. Well, not so much on the Bug.

So if the Black Lion I was the black lion, which ships were the yellow, blue, green and red lions?

Note, this isn't as silly a question as it seems.  The Dreadnought and Black Lion I were the Terran Hegemony's capital WarShips of their day, and at the time, the Dart, Vigilant and Bonaventure are, IIRC, the only ships of the early TH we currently have stats for.  A few decades in, and we add the Lola I to the mix (I don't know that we have a published date for the pre-Essex Essex mentioned in TR2750 and TR3057).  Much later, and the Monsoon and Aegis probably replace both in frontline service.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #39 on: 26 November 2013, 09:30:35 »
Is there any mention of the Golden Lion in the fluff or is that a ship for FR2765 FS?

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #40 on: 26 November 2013, 09:34:45 »
No mention, and we'll see when it comes out. On the upside, if they're going alphabetically the FedSun FR should be soon, following the DCMS.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #41 on: 26 November 2013, 09:53:41 »
YES! I can't wait! Hopefully the Golden Lion will be there as well as another useful ship to round out the SL-era FSN. I cannot speak for the other navies, but outside the SLN the FSN has a very excellent mix of ships. Destroyer, transport, frigate, battlestar. If the Golden Lion turns out to be a member state-grade Black Lion that would add a true capital ship to the lineup. If there is a second ship type in it(going by the two in FR2765 CC) hopefully it is a corvette/cruiser or a good auxiliary ship that allows the FSN to operate longer in its huge operations areas.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #42 on: 26 November 2013, 10:04:42 »
Well, the writeup for the Black Lion I implies that it was sold to all of the houses. So if we do see the Golden Lion as a big capital bruiser, it might be as said Black Lion. If not, it could be a second heavy bruiser class for the FSN, not even counting their fleet of Aegii...the Davions are NOT lacking in the big guns department.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #43 on: 26 November 2013, 10:05:52 »
Wouldn't it be funny if the Golden Lion was a member of another of those generic multi-state widely exported cruisers that seem so common in the member states and isn't profiled until a lower letter like L or P?  O:-)

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #44 on: 26 November 2013, 10:09:12 »
That would be hilarious. ;D You hunt down the writers for the FRs, I'll start collecting bribe money. Bonus points if we can make Golden Lion have a Taurian origin. >:D
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #45 on: 26 November 2013, 10:49:11 »
Well, the writeup for the Black Lion I implies that it was sold to all of the houses. So if we do see the Golden Lion as a big capital bruiser, it might be as said Black Lion. If not, it could be a second heavy bruiser class for the FSN, not even counting their fleet of Aegii...the Davions are NOT lacking in the big guns department.

Well they would have at best 5 Aegii, a paltry number. Which other heavy bruiser are you referring to besides the Aegii?

If the Golden Lion was one of the generics, I think it would've been mentioned in one of the TRO entries by now. Even if it was so, I would still think it is the most awesome ship in the SL-era FSN.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #46 on: 26 November 2013, 11:04:14 »
Which other heavy bruiser are you referring to besides the Aegii?
The Black Lion I. We know this class was sold to the houses, so that's one heavy bruiser. If Golden Lion is not a Black Lion and is still a heavy bruiser, that's two classes.
Quote
If the Golden Lion was one of the generics, I think it would've been mentioned in one of the TRO entries by now.
Unless it's a generic that hasn't been released yet, much like the Black Lion I was until recently. In fact, the vast majority of the ships we have are not generics, so there's no basis for an expectation that we've seen even a majority of such widespread hulls by now. In fact, of all the ships out there, I cannot think of that many generics that can be found in any fleet beyond the Aegis, Baron, and Vigilant. Maybe the Vincent, if it's as widespread in the other House fleets as it was in the CCN. Okay, the Pinto can be called Periphery generic. So...including the Black Lion I, that's six classes of 'generic' ships out of all the ship classes we've ever seen.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #47 on: 26 November 2013, 13:19:59 »
And if the Golden Lion is a Black Lion I...

CNS Typhon: green lion
FSNS Golden Lion: yellow lion
THS Black Lion: black lion
DCS ?????: red lion?
LCS ?????: blue lion?

(sorry, couldn't help it)
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #48 on: 26 November 2013, 13:29:23 »
Except they'd never stop shooting at each other long enough to actually dock. ;)
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #49 on: 26 November 2013, 13:43:23 »
That just adds to the comedy, Weirdo. ;)

One thing I was thinking about though is how, unlike the Dreadnought class, Black Lions ended up in Member State hands, even after a number of them were scrapped.  Yet the Dreadnought survived as a museum ship, while the Black Lion was, presumably, scrapped, allowing its name to be reused for the Black Lion II.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #50 on: 26 November 2013, 13:50:16 »
Well, the Dreadnoughts were kept simply because they were the first. As for the rest, it increasingly looks like the Hegemony would gladly sell any and all obsolescent hulls to other states, or scrap unneeded ones. While it may be ingrained in players and in anyone who has lived in the Battletech universe for the past few centuries, the HAF never saw the 'life is cheap, Battlemechs are expensive' setting that continues to define Battletech today. They've never had to worry about salvage(beyond investigating enemy tech), or treat every war machine(no matter how old) as a precious(or at least usable) commodity. As a result, they could gleefully sell or scrap old gear and actually dismantle WarShips, because they could always build new ones(in fact, the replacements were probably already built, or taking shape in a shipyard). When the Terrans kept a really old ship intact, it was purely out of sentimental value.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #51 on: 26 November 2013, 16:15:45 »
Makes sense.

On the other hand, did just make me look at some numbers more closely, which gave me one of those moments where I hit myself on the forehead and said. "Why didn't I think of that sooner?"

I should have made the Black Lion I 29 meters longer, and given it an SI of 84-85.  Had I realized what art they were going to use, I probably would have.  What I'm thinking can still work without doing that, but it becomes easier.
« Last Edit: 26 November 2013, 16:19:23 by Giovanni Blasini »
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #52 on: 26 November 2013, 19:10:35 »
Well, the Dreadnoughts were kept simply because they were the first.
Dreadnought was kept. As noted the rest were scrapped or museumed. As a class they were so obsolete within 100 years that not even the Houses wanted them.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #53 on: 26 November 2013, 20:28:22 »
When the Terrans kept a really old ship intact, it was purely out of sentimental value.
Why won't they keep McKenna's Black Lion as well?  The ship served as his last flagship.

Anyways I'm glad CGL got stats for the Black Lion Battlecruiser from the Hegemony era.  It was actually one i didn't expect to see the light of day, though i didn't think they'd use actual Black Lion name as lead ship.  Black Lion I stand to be confusing when you compared it to the other Black Lion.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #54 on: 27 November 2013, 08:59:11 »
The Black Lion I. We know this class was sold to the houses, so that's one heavy bruiser. If Golden Lion is not a Black Lion and is still a heavy bruiser, that's two classes.Unless it's a generic that hasn't been released yet, much like the Black Lion I was until recently. In fact, the vast majority of the ships we have are not generics, so there's no basis for an expectation that we've seen even a majority of such widespread hulls by now. In fact, of all the ships out there, I cannot think of that many generics that can be found in any fleet beyond the Aegis, Baron, and Vigilant. Maybe the Vincent, if it's as widespread in the other House fleets as it was in the CCN. Okay, the Pinto can be called Periphery generic. So...including the Black Lion I, that's six classes of 'generic' ships out of all the ship classes we've ever seen.

That's true. So far I've counted three remaining un-statted ships that are famous in BT history: The Golden Lion, FWLS Devastator(which is stated to be bought from the Hegemony, so could be one of the existing designs) and IIRC the FWLN's Alexander-class destroyers.

Keeping the BSG references alive, I wouldn't be surprised if during the Reunification War the Dreadnoughts spammed Sparrowhawks from its small craft bays

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #55 on: 27 November 2013, 09:15:31 »
...the FWLN's Alexander-class destroyers.

Source on these? I've never heard of them. ???

Keeping the BSG references alive, I wouldn't be surprised if during the Reunification War the Dreadnoughts spammed Sparrowhawks from its small craft bays

Yeah, it's a shame the Corsairs arrived too late to fly from her bays. ^-^
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #56 on: 27 November 2013, 09:56:12 »
Why won't they keep McKenna's Black Lion as well?  The ship served as his last flagship.
Dreadnought was historically important.
Black Lion was just a ship.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #57 on: 27 November 2013, 10:29:42 »
Source on these? I've never heard of them. ???

Forgot which source. It might be from the same battle for Hesperus II during the First Succession War. Hence I included the term "IIRC" :-[

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #58 on: 27 November 2013, 10:38:43 »
Well, a quick search of the old Steiner and Marik sourcebooks turns up nothing.
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #59 on: 27 November 2013, 16:50:23 »
And if the Golden Lion is a Black Lion I...

CNS Typhon: green lion
FSNS Golden Lion: yellow lion
THS Black Lion: black lion
DCS ?????: red lion?
LCS ?????: blue lion?

(sorry, couldn't help it)
It's like the WarShip version of the teletubbies.

And that thought's going to stick with me now.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #60 on: 27 November 2013, 16:58:21 »
Well, the Dreadnoughts were kept simply because they were the first. As for the rest, it increasingly looks like the Hegemony would gladly sell any and all obsolescent hulls to other states, or scrap unneeded ones. While it may be ingrained in players and in anyone who has lived in the Battletech universe for the past few centuries, the HAF never saw the 'life is cheap, Battlemechs are expensive' setting that continues to define Battletech today. They've never had to worry about salvage(beyond investigating enemy tech), or treat every war machine(no matter how old) as a precious(or at least usable) commodity. As a result, they could gleefully sell or scrap old gear and actually dismantle WarShips, because they could always build new ones(in fact, the replacements were probably already built, or taking shape in a shipyard). When the Terrans kept a really old ship intact, it was purely out of sentimental value.
It looks like there might've been a few exceptions, though - the fluff for the Monsoon in TRO:3057R talks about how the Hegemony kept upgrading and refurbishing the class even past the point where it was obsolescent simply because the Admiralty didn't want to concede that the time for the class was over and take a number of famous ships out of service. They held onto that class until the end of the Reunification War... but it may be that it was noteworthy with the Monsoon because it was perhaps the exception? The Hegemony certainly didn't seem to have any problems passing on Vigilants, Barons and the like.

It's more interesting than optimal, and therefore better. O0 - Weirdo

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #61 on: 27 November 2013, 17:14:04 »
Forgot which source. It might be from the same battle for Hesperus II during the First Succession War. Hence I included the term "IIRC" :-[
Are you thinking of the Alexander-class destroyer from the fan-made TRO:2800? There's a class by that name on Solaris 7 referencing the TRO: http://www.solaris7.com/TRO/Spaceship/ShipInfo.asp?ID=1300

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #62 on: 27 November 2013, 22:02:51 »
I have the Battletech: Shattered Dawn fan-book TRO:2800, their Alexander Class Destroyer was listed there.  There nothing mentioned in the TRO about Hesperus II though.  Nasty ship gun wise, but still amuses me that mentioned as the mentions that the Alexander has been described as the space going Charger class Battlemech.   
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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #63 on: 27 November 2013, 22:13:24 »
Are you thinking of the Alexander-class destroyer from the fan-made TRO:2800? There's a class by that name on Solaris 7 referencing the TRO: http://www.solaris7.com/TRO/Spaceship/ShipInfo.asp?ID=1300

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EDIT: To continue, the Alexander was my entirely non-canon creation. As far as I can recall, the only canon examples of Free Worlds warships (aside from the Atreus) in the early texts were unidentified "cruisers" and "battlecruisers" mentioned in single sentences. I would need to do some searching to dig up the specific references.

SECOND EDIT: The original house marik book states that House Marik lost "many of its best battlecruisers" in a failed attack on Hesperus II during the First War. A second line in the same book notes that the Principality of Gibson's "tiny navy" was supported by House Marik "cruisers" in border clashes with Regulus. In neither case do class names appear, and exactly what constitutes battlecruiser and cruiser is debatable.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #64 on: 28 November 2013, 08:55:53 »
Arrrgh...I was posting after 12 hours of work and a further 3 hours in front of the computer. Apologies everyone. Thanks for pointing the fan design out, but I've never been through that part of Solaris VII, so it must be a figment of my imagination. Apologies Weirdo, Broken Mnemonic and Liam's Ghost :-[

However, I am curious what kind of navy the FWLN was. The existence of the Atreus points to a traditional navy like the Hegemony that prefers big-gun ships. Besides the Aegis and Black Lion I and possibly Soyal and mentioned imported Hegemony ships, I can't exactly conclude just how varied the FWLN was. Even the fluff on Fleet Admiral Thaddeus says the FWLN liked massive set-piece battles that suggests their ships are big brawlers.

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #65 on: 28 November 2013, 08:58:29 »
The Hegemony certainly didn't seem to have any problems passing on Vigilants, Barons and the like.

That's because they were outright crap.

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So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
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TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Wrangler

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #66 on: 28 November 2013, 09:37:19 »
I'm not sure, but if reading though the Star League sourcebook.  Early era of Terran Hegemony was all about resources shinking, and lack of growth.   Thats why McKenna's campaign bring worlds into Hegemony's charge was so important.

I do think though, if this early era was correctly depicted prior to Hegemony getting into the Shared worlds campaign....that selling old obsolete WarShips would be logical bring in trade and resources to replenish the coffers of the Hegemony.

I was surprised too, considering the Taurians had some Terran Hegemony vessels as well and road they went down together into war.

I think though that was result of CGL not being able to put resources into making additional ships to fill out the ranks of the fleets.
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marauder648

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #67 on: 28 November 2013, 09:43:50 »
Are you thinking of the Alexander-class destroyer from the fan-made TRO:2800? There's a class by that name on Solaris 7 referencing the TRO: http://www.solaris7.com/TRO/Spaceship/ShipInfo.asp?ID=1300

Where might one find this fan made TRO?
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Gryphon

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #68 on: 28 November 2013, 10:49:06 »
Click on that link. At the top of the resulting page, is a dark grey link. Click on that link. Then, have fun, since being there is akin to being lost in trophland, or wikiland, or similar!   8)    A wonderful way to waste hours and hours of your life!

Wrangler

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #69 on: 28 November 2013, 11:03:26 »
I wonder if the first THS Black Lion was commissioned, the Captain gave the command "Activate interlocks! Dyna-therms connected. Infra-cells up; mega-thrusters are go!"
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
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BrokenMnemonic

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #70 on: 28 November 2013, 12:50:30 »
That's because they were outright crap.

cheers,

Gabe
They're relics of their respective times. If you have Barons and Vigilants and your opponents have Aquillas with a few extra AC/5s on, how crap are your Barons and Vigilants?

It's more interesting than optimal, and therefore better. O0 - Weirdo

BrokenMnemonic

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #71 on: 28 November 2013, 12:51:30 »
Where might one find this fan made TRO?
I think Red Pins also has the downloadable version on record somewhere, as I'm sure that's where I first read about the Alexander - he maintains a thread here on fanon publications.

It's more interesting than optimal, and therefore better. O0 - Weirdo

Trace Coburn

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #72 on: 28 November 2013, 18:47:39 »
Where might one find this fan made TRO?
I think Red Pins also has the downloadable version on record somewhere, as I'm sure that's where I first read about the Alexander - he maintains a thread here on fanon publications.
  Like most of the BattleTech: Shattered Dawn fan-books, TRO:2800 and RS:2800 are available from the OurBattleTech downloads section.  ;)  /threadjack

Jellico

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Re: WarShip of the Week: Black Lion I
« Reply #73 on: 28 November 2013, 18:55:27 »
They're relics of their respective times. If you have Barons and Vigilants and your opponents have Aquillas with a few extra AC/5s on, how crap are your Barons and Vigilants?

Barons aren't that old. They are relics of need (and in the case of the Baron something of a failure anyway). One thing consistent to most SLDF ships is that they just work. House ships rarely have the time on station persistence of a SLDF ship, both cargo wise and fluff wise.

I still keep coming back to the example of Napoleonic French and English ships. Look em up. Captains loved the French ships as they had great lines and were generally better performers than the English ships. Admirals and quartermasters hated them as they fell to pieces in the field at a time when ships were spending 360 days a year at sea.

 

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