Mechs that are taboo

[Von Jankmon]

I think it will cost more than a ton.  The entire interface is neural linked.  The whole mech will need custom rewiring.  Better to strip it for parts.

[YingJanshi]

I thought I read somewhere that Rim World designs were also taboo after the Amaris fracas.

[Sartris]

I thought I read somewhere that Rim World designs were also taboo after the Amaris fracas.

Dragoon, Phoenix, and Rampage probably. Some other closely associated designs like the Whitworth WTH-0 didn't hang on long either

[Empyrus]

The Dragoons were constructed on Earth, and Kerensky had all extant Dragoons destroyed (minus one at least, given that it was in the hands of the ComGuards during the Dark Age). Presumably the Dragoons didn't really get to fight elsewhere given its nature as a very new 'Mech.
So, taboo kinda doesn't apply to it.

I would assume in most cases for Rim World designs, practicality had far more effect on their extinction than taboo: The Succession Wars began soon after so they might have been pressed to service anyway, and parts supply for them most certainly will have dried out quickly.

[JadedFalcon]

The RWR mechs might have just been scrapped for parts instead of put into service. In addition to the Amaris stigma, the 1st SW still had large armies using their own home-grown mechs, so using the Rimmy mechs wouldn't have been as viable. Especially with the supporting production for those mechs having been obliterated by Kerensky.

That's my reasoning. The MUL shows the Rampage and the Phoenix as being extinct by the early SW era, so they may have their own version of why they don't exist after the Amaris war.

[Deadborder]

The Dragoon was the only RWR 'Mech design specifically scrapped. The others did suffer the double punch of losing their production lines and having the only major user very thoroughly destroyed though. IIRC, the Rampage and Phoenix did survive into the Succession Wars but eventually became extinct.

[grimlock1]

I think it will cost more than a ton.  The entire interface is neural linked.  The whole mech will need custom rewiring.  Better to strip it for parts.

As per IO, pg 68,

The direct neural interface cockpit modification
is required to enable a unit to be piloted directly by a warrior
augmented by a direct neural interface implant. A cockpit that is not
so modified can only be operated manually and/or with standard
neurohelmet aid, thus negating all of the benefits of the neural
interface technology.

and

Direct neural interface modifications add no
significant weight or critical space to the cockpit and control systems
of the modified unit,

However, if Quirks are in play, using a cockpit that is setup for VDNI with a regular neurohelmet gives you Hard to Pilot.  Which if stacked with the +1 PSR from the Celestial's small cockpit, is starting to be an issue.

[Von Jankmon]

I thought the SOP for Wolverines was kill all warriors on sight.  Non-warrior caste Wolverines were killed or sterilized at the local commander's discretion.

I am talking about the 55 ton Wolverine mech, not the Not Named clan.

[Korzon77]

I'd expect that in a lot of places, celestials are extinct. And that mech that is armed the same, is the same tonnage and has some suspiciously flimsy additions to its body to "break up the design" totally isn't a celestial. Nope, no-sirree.

[Nightsong]

I'd expect that in a lot of places, celestials are extinct. And that mech that is armed the same, is the same tonnage and has some suspiciously flimsy additions to its body to "break up the design" totally isn't a celestial. Nope, no-sirree.

To be honest, I can’t imagine someone turning down a definitely-not-a-celestial unless it was a demonstrable widowmaker. If it was killing or crippling Mechwarriors, sure I’d be leery, but just because it still smells of toaster worshipper doesn’t mean they’d think all that hard on whether being Dispossessed is better.

[2ndAcr]

 Shame about the Dragoon, it is a sweet ride. The LRM version is about as good a fire support as you can get.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

To be honest, I can’t imagine someone turning down a definitely-not-a-celestial unless it was a demonstrable widowmaker. If it was killing or crippling Mechwarriors, sure I’d be leery, but just because it still smells of toaster worshipper doesn’t mean they’d think all that hard on whether being Dispossessed is better.

Given that the Celestials' extinction occurred at the same time as one of the biggest slow-downs in military spending in the BTU, I don't think that's likely to be accurate.  If you were looking for a new ride at that time, you probably had a buyer's market on mechs that didn't have the same bad rep.

[Major Headcase]

   I'm running into this issue with a Merc unit I'm making. Made of former WoB and Comstar who abandon their factions in the wake of the Schism and the brutality of the Words Jihad tactics. The leader will be in a Legacy (because I own the mini and I love the design!) But I keep feeling that it just wouldn't be feasible... some mechs are less like historical tanks (say a German Panther, a generic crewed vehicle) and more like a uniform of allegiance and identity (a knights armour and tabbard). With the individuality of Mechwarriors identity, especially a merc, the mech they drive becomes a part of their public and professional persona, and with the level of hatred the Jihad generated for all things WoB, driving a mech so identified with that organization could not only be a bad business decision, but mortally dangerous on the field.
I'm torn about keeping the machine... I'm thinking he would use it during the Jihad, as a specific insult to his WoB enemies, but after the Jihad I think quietly replacing the machine would be the best way to go...

[Kidd]

I buy into that. Cause I see a Legacy or a Celestial, yes I WILL gun for it. Something satisfying about taking down a totem Mech, because... well because it IS a totem.

[Precentor Scorpio]

Its possible that you could justify keeping the Legacy if your pilot was known for a quirk of "redeeming reputation" for lack of a better description.  (Not everyone will know about your character's reputation so he could still be a marked individual when he goes into combat.  But enough individuals will know of his reputation to give him employment opportunities or want him on their side.)  If you go this route, you should consider giving the mech a custom paint job, logo, or something on the mech to clearly identify your leader as a special individual and not just a generic warrior.
Red Baron all red, Bounty Hunter dollar signs??, Natasha Kerensky's Black Widow, etc. 

[grimlock1]

I'd expect that in a lot of places, celestials are extinct. And that mech that is armed the same, is the same tonnage and has some suspiciously flimsy additions to its body to "break up the design" totally isn't a celestial. Nope, no-sirree.

Other than the Prefect, what are we talking about?
According to Sarna, the Uraeus and Kheper didn't come along until the 3120's with the reborn 1st Division.

Given that the Celestials' extinction occurred at the same time as one of the biggest slow-downs in military spending in the BTU, I don't think that's likely to be accurate.  If you were looking for a new ride at that time, you probably had a buyer's market on mechs that didn't have the same bad rep.

There's a pure financial perspective too.  Sure you could probably scoop up a Grigori for the price of a Strider, but you also have to think about finding parts for the bloody thing.

[JadedFalcon]

Other than the Prefect, what are we talking about?
According to Sarna, the Uraeus and Kheper didn't come along until the 3120's with the reborn 1st Division.

There's a pure financial perspective too.  Sure you could probably scoop up a Grigori for the price of a Strider, but you also have to think about finding parts for the bloody thing.

The Yao Lien is supposedly made from spare Celestial parts. But the Capellans probably wouldn't be thrilled to work with someone insisting on using a Celestial omni.

[Kidd]

Other than the Prefect, what are we talking about?
According to Sarna, the Uraeus and Kheper didn't come along until the 3120's with the reborn 1st Division.

There's a pure financial perspective too.  Sure you could probably scoop up a Grigori for the price of a Strider, but you also have to think about finding parts for the bloody thing.

To me the Prefect barely looks like a Celestial. Much less so than the latter two of course, and those were obviously deliberate.

Another thought occurred to me. Celestials and other WOB designs might attract more attention than the users are comfortable with. If you're a mercenary or House unit trying to make a little 3025-style cross-border raid, the last thing you want is for the target to start bleating on HPG to all neighbouring planets "HALP THE BLAKISTS ARE BACK I WAS RAIDED BY AN UNIDENTIFIED FORCE USING CELESTIALS"

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, that's another consideration: people see Celestials getting off your dropship and start chucking Davy Crocketts at you.

[JadeHellbringer]

On the other hand, if (for example) the FedSuns wanted to take a little heat off their border, a few leftover Celestials from the bad old days making a raid or two deep in Capellan space would be a great way to sow a little confusion.

"...They were driving WHAT? Wait, were they in a fade scheme or tiger-stripes? IT MATTERS."

[ColBosch]

I'm honestly surprised it hasn't happened already. Any state should be able to dig up a dozen Celestials and the fanatics to pilot them for blackest-of-black operations. Use a small JumpShip to insert in the outer fringes of the target system, coast a Union to the planet, land quietly, then raise hell.

Of course, even if such a terror raid was conducted by actual Blakist remnants, the Capellans would blame the Federated Suns...

[grimlock1]

The Yao Lien is supposedly made from spare Celestial parts. But the Capellans probably wouldn't be thrilled to work with someone insisting on using a Celestial omni.

The Eidolon was designed to be built from surplus Celestial parts.  The Yao Lien is built with Capellan made parts, at least after the initial run production run or two. The Capellans were able to steal most, if not all of the manufacturing data, and a fair amount of the tooling from Liberty in 3078.  From there, it's almost a turn-key operation to start producing parts locally.

Also look at the production window.  Yes, it was a WoB mech, during the Jihad, but it didn't show up until AFTER the WoB was on the back foot. Also consider that it was used by WoB Militia, not the Shadow Divisions.

[JadedFalcon]

The Eidolon was designed to be built from surplus Celestial parts.  The Yao Lien is built with Capellan made parts, at least after the initial run production run or two. The Capellans were able to steal most, if not all of the manufacturing data, and a fair amount of the tooling from Liberty in 3078.  From there, it's almost a turn-key operation to start producing parts locally.

Also look at the production window.  Yes, it was a WoB mech, during the Jihad, but it didn't show up until AFTER the WoB was on the back foot. Also consider that it was used by WoB Militia, not the Shadow Divisions.

Interesting point about the Eidolon and Yao Lien being functionally identical, but with potential incompatibilities due to changes in manufacturing and specs. The question then becomes how different are the Capellan components from the Celestials, and could parts from a Yao Lien be used to repair a Celestial with relative ease? Maybe the production model of the Yao Lien is too different to be a useful source of replacement parts.

I'm honestly surprised it hasn't happened already. Any state should be able to dig up a dozen Celestials and the fanatics to pilot them for blackest-of-black operations. Use a small JumpShip to insert in the outer fringes of the target system, coast a Union to the planet, land quietly, then raise hell.

Of course, even if such a terror raid was conducted by actual Blakist remnants, the Capellans would blame the Federated Suns...

As much as I like the notion of Celestials being kept for absurdist false flag missions, they'd be a really loud red herring and would seem to invite much more intense investigations than a gang of unremarkable pirate mechs. The red herring Celestials would have to be used for a very specific goal. Like attacking working HPGs in 3150. Or leaving breadcrumbs that implicates another nation as the one using Celestials for false flag ops.

[Kidd]

On the other hand, if (for example) the FedSuns wanted to take a little heat off their border, a few leftover Celestials from the bad old days making a raid or two deep in Capellan space would be a great way to sow a little confusion.

"...They were driving WHAT? Wait, were they in a fade scheme or tiger-stripes? IT MATTERS."

So evil... so awesome...

The red herring Celestials would have to be used for a very specific goal. Like attacking working HPGs in 3150. Or leaving breadcrumbs that implicates another nation as the one using Celestials for false flag ops.

Well shyeah. Look at the shenanigans in that bit of fiction in cant-remember-which-rulebook, The Circle. Par for the IS intelligence agency course.

[JadedFalcon]

Well shyeah. Look at the shenanigans in that bit of fiction in cant-remember-which-rulebook, The Circle. Par for the IS intelligence agency course.

Well, I can't argue if cranking it to eleven is standard practice...

[grimlock1]

Interesting point about the Eidolon and Yao Lien being functionally identical, but with potential incompatibilities due to changes in manufacturing and specs. The question then becomes how different are the Capellan components from the Celestials, and could parts from a Yao Lien be used to repair a Celestial with relative ease? Maybe the production model of the Yao Lien is too different to be a useful source of replacement parts.

For an IRL example, look at the B-29 and the TU-4.  Several US B-29's were unable to make it back to their bases after raids on Japan and diverted to Russia.  Being neutral in the Sino-US conflict, the Russians seized the planes and interned the crews, in accordance with international law.  Stalin ordred that a copy of thge B-29 be put into production, a process that took 2 years, which is also about how long it took Boeing to design and build the bloody thing in the first place.  This timeline may have been inflated by an overly bureaucratic organizational structure and the the knowledge that any mistakes would earn you a one way ticket to a gulag, if you were lucky.

Certain systems were swapped out for comparable Russian analogs like the guns or engines, but things like the Norden Bomb Sight were copied, exactly.   I'm a bit surprised that the bombardiers didn't destroy the sights, since those things were classified up the yin-yang and part of the bombardier's job was to either return the unit to base or destroy it...  Copying the Norden must have really sucked because it was a high precision mechanical computer, chock full of SAE parts. You can cut most SAE threads on a metric lathe.    Those threaded parts are then used to make gear hobbers, which in turn are used to make the dozens of tiny gears in the Norden. 

Speaking of SAE/Metric, the Soviets couldn't get there hands on 1/16" aluminium sheet, they alternated sheets of 0.8mm and 1.8mm to make weight.

I expect that everyone in the Sphere is using metric, but I can easily see bolt spacings change, and components swapped out, requiring a change in adjacent systems.   Data buses are likely to be different.  Even the style of molex connectors has a good chance of being different.  So an Eidolon and Yao Lien could have virtually identical performance  and still be made of incompatible parts.

[Kovax]

Made of "mostly incompatible" parts.  It just takes a lot of additional time with a file and a hammer to make it fit, and then a few more days to get the whole cobbled mess to work together, and then for the computer to recognize its cryptic status messages as valid data, while ignoring MOST of the string of error messages.

[Kit deSummersville]

For an IRL example, look at the B-29 and the TU-4.  Several US B-29's were unable to make it back to their bases after raids on Japan and diverted to Russia.  Being neutral in the Sino-US conflict,

The US was bombing Japan during the Korean War?

[pat_hdx]

I always figured a unit would take any questionable mechs and give them a "plausible" makeover to look like something less taboo.

Say you are are an Amaris related unit sometime in the 1st Succession War, revamping yourselves as a Mercenary unit of private origins. What do you do with that single prized AEM-002 Dragoon (AC-20, ERPCC, a gaggle of lasers, 350XL...)?

Well, I figure you trade the ERPPC for an ERLL, flip it to the side of the AC-20 and vice-a-versa, and do some other light mods...then you give it as much of cosmetic makeover to look angular/Franckenmech-y and...Voila:

"That? Oh that's a customized Shootist. We traded out the Standard engine for an XL we salvaged after a bruising battle...it looks kinda wonky after all the extensive battle damage we've had to rebuild it form."

[JadeHellbringer]

The US was bombing Japan during the Korean War?

No, he's right. These were planes that couldn't return to their home base during raids on Japan during late WWII, and were forced to put down in then-neutral Soviet territory. Those three planes (exactly three, important later) were then used for testing and as the template for the Tu-4.

After production began, three "B-29s" flew over the May Day parade, where western observers assumed Stalin had the three ditched planes repaired and put in his own service... as they approached Red Square though, suddenly a fourth plane appeared and joined the formation. Wait... we lost three, so where did that one... oh. Oh no.

Soon the sky was full of Tu-4s flying over the crowd in small groups... sort of. The Soviet Air Force was landing them on a nearby empty stretch of highway, painting a new number on the tail, and sending the planes back over the crowd so it would look like they had hundreds of them in service (at this point there were only a couple dozen)

So yeah, grimlock1 is right in this case. By the time the Korean conflict rolled around, the B-29 was no secret to the Soviets anymore- any lost over North Korea were likely very interesting to Soviet 'observers', but there wasn't much to learn that the examples they already owned couldn't teach them.

(Now, the B-36... that was different. Likely as a result of the Tu-4 fiasco, my granddad was under strict orders to destroy any secret equipment- bomb sights, radios, etc.- in case of a crash. Just in case. His expert opinion was that they should have gifted a Peacemaker to the Russians so they'd have to suffer through using the god-awful things too.)