So the celestial series... how to and why?

[dgorsman]

The zombies and wraiths from TRO 3085 are more specialist units (assault and recon, respectively).  They're not really intended to be deployed in large numbers. 

For a more conventional infantry force, I'd recommend using a standard WoB size with an armor divisor of 2 representing various combinations of dermal implants and body armor.  If you're feeling extra nasty, ignore extra damage from infantry burst fire (e.g. MG platoons) and reduce burst fire damage from heavy weapons by 1d6.

[Church14]

Ok. So then the 6 man squad is 93 BV but lists a 1.75x for MD

So they cost 93 without the mountain of text by them and 163 to get all the goodies? What does that 1.75 get me.

[Tangoforone]

I know for some implants installed on Manei Domini infantry you can make them pretty darn deadly.

Myomer implants boost their ground MP by +1, so now ground infantry can move two hexes.  Pain Shunts changes Flamer damage to 1D6 or something along those lines.  There are some sensory implants that can bump up accuracy. 

Those are the three I know of, but I imagine there are other useful implants out there.  I played against someone who brought two Level II's of Manei Domini infantry that had dug into woods; they were the stuff of nightmares with long range, highly accurate, and absurd damage.  When it came down to it, I chose to face his King Crab, Marauder II, and Archangel instead of dealing with the infantry. 

[truetanker]

Maybe I should post officially my Tau Omega MD Infantry Platoon...

Armor Divisor of 3
Platoon, Foot...
2MP... Glides...
Other funny business stuff...
Twelve people... 39 damage...
3 Tons... 264 BV...2/2 using C3i

TT

Ahem...

I can PM you the full stats if your interested...

TT

[Nahuris]

I have used WOB a great deal and I have found that the celestials work best as fill ins for other units .. rather than working together ... but I do disagree with the aversion to the Invictus variants. I have found them useful in the right circumstances.  Using an Archangel, in a city, and running into another mech, going physical, and getting that possible crit, while spotting for others can be brutal.
Another thing is the prevalence of C3i .... and the fact that we have every clan mech, except the Uller and Vulture, on our list.
Hype it up, and let your opponent flood the table with ECM .... so many people will spam that ECM, expecting C3i, that if you don't use it, you leave them flat footed. For every variant that has the C3i, we have one that does not, along with the ability so seed the forces with clan mechs, as well, Especially combining mechs like the Marauder 9M, or 9M2, with support from something like a clan Puma .... no C3i, but a whole lot of hurt in that combo.
In addition, combined arms are your friends .... use the Tau Wraiths. Individually, they are not much, but the boosted communications gear they carry in their heads is a strong advantage when they are used as spotters. Coupled with their mimetic armor ability, you can plant them in good defensive locations, and call in large volumes of indirect fire. Tau Zombies are very tough, and you can spam them, as they are individual squads, so can be transported in any infantry transport. We get a bunch of tanks, as well, and many have C3i ... to include a variant of the LRM carrier ... having it indirect, for wraiths spotting, while it is connected to another level 1, is very doable, which means that when those mechs are in close, you can have it roll into direct fire, drop some pain with short range modes, and then roll back, and take targeting from the wraiths for indirect.

In the end, though, and especially with TW, you are going to pay a lot for a little .... learn to use things like LRM Flatbed trucks, and other filler units to build formations, and control the battlefield. Artillery, mines, and support fire with tag, etc ... those are your friends, just as much as the C3i.

Nahuris

[Church14]

I’ve wholeheartedly embraced the combined arms aspect. I’ve been building 5-10k level IIs for pickup games. It’s common for me to have 3 mechs and 3 vehicle/BA/infantry points as well. I feel like I have an ok grasp of the infantry and BA and am now working on figuring out vehicles. The Burke, Chaparral and Bolla all look fun.

Unless I’m gonna do the Opacus Venatori exhibition match where I bring a 24k-ish BV level II and have fun. That will be all mechs.


Also, 164 BV for a seven man Tau Zombie squad that peaks at 7 damage at range seems so steep until I remember that it fires out to 15 hexes.

[Weirdo]

Bringing this back up,  because I just noticed something interesting: If you're playing with quirks, ALL of the Celestials have the Improved Sensors quirk. Unless you work really hard at it, you're going to find it extremely difficult to hide from any of these guys...

[Firesprocket]

That's fairly obnoxious.  Another reason for me to hate quirks too.

[Weirdo]

I rather like it. It helps showcase the bleeding edge tech the Blakists deployed, and means that certain tricks won't work on them, pushing their role as the Big Bad.

[Church14]

I’m introducing our local guys to Battletech and we aren’t at a point where quirks are in play. So Improved Sensors doesn’t mean much to me.

So far since this thread I’ve gotten a few games in with the celestials. Typically 3 celestials and some BA. One match included a Bolla.

Most of our matches are symmetric objectives and balanced by BV.

A few notes (let me know if it sounds like I did something wrong):
-The Bolla is awesome as a carrier for BA. One platoon inside and one riding it. Once dropped off, the BA hit objectives and the Bolla drops back to use MMLs in a support role.
-Purifier Adaptives are very irritating in king of the hill or hold a location scenarios. I need to print out sheets for other MD BA to try them out.
-bVDNI is not nearly as risky as I had thought. Though I’m not typically running the Archangel or something that takes that much abuse.

[dgorsman]

You think Purifiers are annoying, try the Nephilim.

[Tangoforone]

The Gauss variant of the Nephilim is quite nasty as well.  BVDNI isn't terribly concerning, and you can ignore almost all the negatives by throwing in the Pain Shunt.

[Church14]

So it says 1 David light gauss and 2X Magshots. Do I get to fire all three weapons every turn?

[Tangoforone]

Heck yea you get to fire all three every turn.  It would be similar to the standard Elemental firing its standard weapon and one of the SRM-2 launchers.  As far as I am aware ammunition isn't tracked for those weapons, however I would consult someone more experienced in battle armor rules to confirm that.  I just recall printing out the record sheets specifically for the Gauss Nephilim and not seeing any ammunition trackers.

What's really nasty is the stealth armor on the Nephilim.  If you can drop them off somewhere, they can remain stationary and get a massive bonus to be shot at (I think +2 or +3 if they don't move at all). 

[Colt Ward]

Ammo for things like any BA weapon outside of missiles is not tracked at the BT scale.  It IS tracked for AToW, which makes some suits better than others- even energy have a certain number of shots.

Is it the King David or just David light gauss?  One of the TacOps rules I like is that certain BA weapons work better against BA targets than against mechs.  The KD Gauss will collanderize opposing BA while the Plasma weapon on the Cappie Trinity suit will slag them.

[Weirdo]

It's the King David.

Also, those guns only get the extra damage if it's a BA using them. A King David used by conventional infantry or mounted on a support vee gets no extra damage.

[Church14]

Hm 81 per trooper so my normal MD is 486BV before becoming veteran unit. 12 tons so they ride on the Bolla/celestial and can’t ride in it.

Looks like I’ll be buying a PDF of 3075 record sheets for these suckers. I’m enjoying immensely that it seems like MD infantry/BA can make a difference

[dgorsman]

In TW rules, BA transport is not by suit weight but a straight 1 ton per suit.  TacOps has an optional rule for considering actual suit weight.

[Colt Ward]

Hm 81 per trooper so my normal MD is 486BV before becoming veteran unit. 12 tons so they ride on the Bolla/celestial and can’t ride in it.

Looks like I’ll be buying a PDF of 3075 record sheets for these suckers. I’m enjoying immensely that it seems like MD infantry/BA can make a difference

BA weights is a TacOps rule . . . under normal rules, each and every BA suit can fit in a 1 ton slot.  Assault BA troopers get really tired of their squad leaders shouting 'Think Skinny!' before they climb into that APC.

BA can always make a difference- question is, does someone know how to use them and have they brought the critical mass?

[Church14]

BA weights is a TacOps rule . . . under normal rules, each and every BA suit can fit in a 1 ton slot.  Assault BA troopers get really tired of their squad leaders shouting 'Think Skinny!' before they climb into that APC.

BA can always make a difference- question is, does someone know how to use them and have they brought the critical mass?

I’m the one bringing them. I can give you a soft maybe on both questions.

Usually, I’ll build so that my force has 6 Level Is. we typically run 7-10k BV totals to keep play time lower. So typically 2 infantry/BA, a Tank, and, 3 mechs.

Last force (10.4k) (all 3/4 pilots)
Purifier Adaptive (671)
Purifier Adaptive (671)
Bolla Invictus (1335)
Malak Mi (1241)
Archangel Berith (3302)
Seraph Havala (3218)

The celestials were in a c3i network and the Bolla was not. Is battle armor a wast Inc this? I’m usually facing mech exclusive forces though they are warming up to elementals.

[Colt Ward]

Might search topics, we have a lot of how to BA . . . I was making a off-hand reference to folks who will run 1 BA, send it out in the middle of the map with no cover, act surprised when it dies, and claim they suck.

For Purifiers IMO it depends on what you want them to do . . . they make excellent spotters for IDF since sitting still gives their armor a bonus and unlike regular line BA do not have to move forward to engage.  Look up the topic, it should help plan some surprises . . . the BT forum gesalt has some nasty BA plans.

[Caedis Animus]

As someone mentioned a while ago, Celestials work really well with non-Celestials (Or at least better) that mount C3I. So if someone still wanted to slot more 'simple' or less awkward C3I omnis into a Celestial Force, it looks like the Avatar OE and Perseus W are your only options for canon configs. I don't know why I wanted to point this out, just a thought.

I think the Perseus W at least adds two hard hitting guns (Read; Above 10 damage shots) to the lineup so that you can add a much more simple alternative to the far more esoteric(?) Seraph, so I guess there's that.

[Church14]

We are mostly playing “hold X area” objectives. So I run the BA in on something fast, drop them off in the zone, and then the BA find a comfy place to camp that requires players to put themselves out in the open if they want to hit that BA.

Since I’ve been using Purifier Adaptive, I’m not expecting a lot of damage out of them. I still get some, just not a lot.

I will admit that the first time I used BA since getting back into Battletech a year or so ago, it was Purifier Terra and they ended up out in the open and not doing jack ****. So there’s been some trial and error. I’ll look at some of the BA stories and tactics to see what I’m missing. The gist seems to be to get them out into the most likely to be important part of the map with cover as fast as you can. Then they become area denial weapons.

[Weirdo]

There are exceptions, but yeah, that's pretty much the gist of standard battlesuit use. Same goes for most foot infantry, albeit with different strengths and weaknesses.

[Wrangler]

I think the some of the weaknesses was done on purposes on the Celestials.  I didn't think they were that bad in some configurations, but their also omnis.  A GM could have loaded up with nastier set weapons if they choose to.   

Also their pilots change the nature of the Mech allowing them to be more potent, if not durable with those cyber implants.

I'm not sure how well their Battle Armor faired, but they seem on nastier side of the spectrum.  Speaking of which, their Spectrum Omnifighters were descent.

I was just disappointed with them having only one combat vehicle, i was hoping to see main battle tank. Maybe XTRO: Word of Blake could come out some day show what happened to it.

[Tangoforone]

Mech Factory, despite its name, actually has record sheets for many of the battle armor and vehicles.  They also have record sheets for mechs, but theirs use a 60 point heat scale so you just ignore 31 to 60 and auto shutdown at 30.  The only potential concern is that you do need to setup an account, however I think the only personal information is an email address, and maybe a name.  It has been a bit of time since I set my account up.  They also made an Android app, which has all the information that is on the website.

Obviously I would recommend getting TRO's and what-not as they are a good read and the artwork is cool, and it supports the company that provides all this wonderful stuff.

I assume posting this isn't breaking any rules since people post for Sarna/Mega Mek all the time, but someone will let me know.

[grimlock1]

Bringing this back up,  because I just noticed something interesting: If you're playing with quirks, ALL of the Celestials have the Improved Sensors quirk. Unless you work really hard at it, you're going to find it extremely difficult to hide from any of these guys...

I know Quirks are in BMM, but what book says Celestials get that quirk?

You think Purifiers are annoying, try the Nephilim.

Heh, that's a pile of nasty.  Stack the +1 for BA and +3 for stationary mimetic, and that is a steep penalty. Although, with only 2 ground MP, getting them to the fight is an issue. And with no jump, they eat into their mimetic armor's defensive buff, with for no gain in TMM.

[Weirdo]

I know Quirks are in BMM, but what book says Celestials get that quirk?

The best reason to buy BMM is the list it has, which assigns quirks to all mechs that were published before CGL started putting them in TROs.

[Church14]

Hm. I think my next stress test of MD equipment will be to play a low BV game (5-7k) and bring just a pile of infantry/BA. Two Bolla tanks to carry them.

Two Bolla for about 2.6k BV after making them 3/4s.
So 2.4k of BA and infantry riding in and on. Get me some Nephilim, Zombies, and those XCT infantry they have.

Probably garbage but sounds fun.

[Greatclub]

Depends on mission and map