Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)

[RotS fan]

Besides everything mentioned in the thread there's one thing I didn't understand.
In Surrender Your Dreams the Fidelis were stated to *hate* the Clans. They attacked Wolves and Jade Falcons furiously, to the point that it other RotS soldiers kept wondering it they were Wolverines. They have also refer to their annihilation as "The Great Betrayal" (can't remember in which novel).

However, they way Paul Moon talks about a possible ilClan almost makes me thing he respects them. Don't know if this is a deliberated change of direction or if I simply didn't understand their relationship with the clans

[Dragon Cat]

I do think they do not like the Clans, or the Inner Sphere for that matter

But ilClan is different its essentially the holy grail for many Clansmen the Custos was one of those warriors who invaded the Inner Sphere in the original invasion he had the dream of the ilClan he understands it and is near the end of his life (and he knows it) even Clan medicine only goes so far

On a personal level I think he desires to see the ilClan

And I bet he traded the information he gathered from Redburns prisoners on Terras defences to win over Ward

[Colt Ward]

Well . . . the ilKhan can create a new Clan . . . BUT, remember in 'Surrender Your Dreams' it was the line troopers who disliked the other Clans and took measures to keep their DNA secret.  The MWDA novel has also had portions reaved.

[SteveRestless]

Well . . . the ilKhan can create a new Clan . . . BUT, remember in 'Surrender Your Dreams' it was the line troopers who disliked the other Clans and took measures to keep their DNA secret.  The MWDA novel has also had portions reaved.

Actually, it's a power that any Khan, not just the ilKhan has. I think the only time it has been exercised was the absorbtion of Clan Wolf, by Clan Jade Falcon, immediately followed by the Jade Falcon Khans reorganizing them into the Jade Wolves for all of five minutes before Vlad undid that. Generally, one imagines that it is not a useful power, since the Khan spinning out a new clan has to provide the men and materials to do so. Which SOUNDS inoccuous at first, but upon examination is probably a whole furball of bloodhouse political chaos waiting to explode, unless you have a large body of isorla forces like the Jade Wolf scenario. Better to create a new galaxy or two in your own clan, than split bloodhouses into a new entity where you might lose control.

What the ilKhan can do that the Khan cannot, is bloodnames. But with the Dark Age, and some of the new bloodnames therein, even that may not be the exclusive domain of the ilKhan now.

[Colt Ward]

The Khan has the power to split off a current piece of their Clan to create a new Clan . . . which is very different from taking people who are not a Clan and making them one.

[RotS fan]

And I bet he traded the information he gathered from Redburns prisoners on Terras defences to win over Ward

When I read that section I thought he was gathering intelligence for himself and the Fidelis. The fact that he declared themselves the ilClan at the end of Forever Faithful still makes me wonder that Paul will try to hold the ilClanship himself

[SteveRestless]

Not really.

"I declare a Trial of Absorbtion for the Fidelis"
Rock Paper Scissors in which Paul Moon makes a shadow puppet of a Jaguar while the Khan throws Rock.
"Welcome to our clan, I name you Sigma Juliet Galaxy, The Technically Absorbed. I now exercise my right as Khan to spin off a portion of my clan into a New Clan. I redesignate Sigma Juliet Galaxy as Clan Smoke Jaguar, and bequeath all warriors, machines and assorted possessions thereof as the property of that Clan."
"Seyla" "Seyla"

[Paul]

One of the subtle things I like about the Clans is that the concept only works when:
- You have many Clans
- You have regular upwards travel in the Castes
- You regularly add new Bloodnames.

The power for all of that exists explicitly in the system, but it just about never happened in reality. Which is a very sizable portion of their corruption.

But if the biggest Clans were forced to split and if you had an influx of Bloodnames from freeborn, youd have a massive political shift that would be beneficial.

Its human nature that deters this from happening.
And that’s good writing, to me.

[SteveRestless]

I have to say that I find the notion of Clans being spawned like self-sustaining Posleen Warbands immensely appealing.

[ANS Kamas P81]

One of the subtle things I like about the Clans is that the concept only works when:

But if the biggest Clans were forced to split and if you had an influx of Bloodnames from freeborn, youd have a massive political shift that would be beneficial.

I'm curious how you figure that, explain further please?

[Marveryn]

One of the subtle things I like about the Clans is that the concept only works when:
- You have many Clans
- You have regular upwards travel in the Castes
- You regularly add new Bloodnames.

The power for all of that exists explicitly in the system, but it just about never happened in reality. Which is a very sizable portion of their corruption.

But if the biggest Clans were forced to split and if you had an influx of Bloodnames from freeborn, youd have a massive political shift that would be beneficial.

Its human nature that deters this from happening.
And that’s good writing, to me.

splitting a clan for a new clan sound like a good idea when you have something like the  Madrill where each house pretty much do what they want.  You have those that are loyal and those that are disloyal.  instead of a civil war you seperate your asset.  Of course doing that lead you to absortion by another clan.

[Marveryn]

not having YET read the book. a couple of thing pop in my head a i read this thread.  First book sh ould had been publish before we got the all the spoilers from FM and other sources.  2.  At this point giving how no one took advantage of the black out it be funny that it was a case of a tech hitting the wrong lever.  You know the one that say do not touch till Stone wake up

[Talen5000]

The Khan has the power to split off a current piece of their Clan to create a new Clan . . . which is very different from taking people who are not a Clan and making them one.

True - but we don't know if the ilKhan has that power.

Only the 800 were "worthy" and they would already be part of a Clan. Would an ilKhan be able to create a Clan without that link? Easy to say yes, but not certain.

[wantec]

Actually, it's a power that any Khan, not just the ilKhan has. I think the only time it has been exercised was the absorbtion of Clan Wolf, by Clan Jade Falcon, immediately followed by the Jade Falcon Khans reorganizing them into the Jade Wolves for all of five minutes before Vlad undid that. Generally, one imagines that it is not a useful power, since the Khan spinning out a new clan has to provide the men and materials to do so. Which SOUNDS inoccuous at first, but upon examination is probably a whole furball of bloodhouse political chaos waiting to explode, unless you have a large body of isorla forces like the Jade Wolf scenario. Better to create a new galaxy or two in your own clan, than split bloodhouses into a new entity where you might lose control.

What the ilKhan can do that the Khan cannot, is bloodnames. But with the Dark Age, and some of the new bloodnames therein, even that may not be the exclusive domain of the ilKhan now.

Don't forget the Stone Lions. They too were Absorbed & then made a new Clan by Khan N'Buta

[Talen5000]

What the ilKhan can do that the Khan cannot, is bloodnames. But with the Dark Age, and some of the new bloodnames therein, even that may not be the exclusive domain of the ilKhan now.

The IS Clans have created a new Trial.
It is difficult to create a new Bloodname but not impossible.

The Home Clans would probably look on it as a further sign of corruption - but then, they can elect a legal ilKhan, and they have the Grand Council.

[Mecha82]

I really doubt that Grand Council matters anymore to IS Clans nor does jabbing of Home Clans. And why would they care about that? Neither of those two no longer concerns them and hasn't concerned them for long time. So it doesn't matter who Grand Council chooses as legal ilKhan when all that matters is who takes Terra with Jade Falcons and Wolves fighting over it.

[Dragon Cat]

I thought the Inner Sphere Clans already had attempted to create new Bloodlines Kell (W-iE), Avellar (SR) and Magnesson (RD) or are they just becoming more lax with them keeping their surname in certain cases

[Sharpnel]

I thought the Inner Sphere Clans already had attempted to create new Bloodlines Kell (W-iE), Avellar (SR) and Magnesson (RD) or are they just becoming more lax with them keeping their surname in certain cases

Also Brahe (CHH) was new as well

[Geg]

and there are familiar decor choices.

I missed this.  What about the decor?

[Paul]

I'm curious how you figure that, explain further please?

While there has been a bit of a shift come 3150, in theory the body that has power in the Clan in the Counsel. Votes in that are restricted to Bloodnamed individuals, an almost literal 'counsel of lords' since eligibility is effectively 100% hereditary. The fact that you must also fight your way to the top is irrelevant; it's not like a particular Bloodright is going to be left fallow because there are not enough worthy individuals. By the 3050s, it's common for a Bloodname Trial to have 32 candidates, plus another batch in the Melee. Kind of ludicrous when you consider there's hundreds of Bloodrights, and even Bloodnamed individuals don't have careers much beyond their 40s... In my opinion one of those little booboos back then when they didn't consider scale enough (remember the quote about the multitude of ilKhans? Unpossible!)

Anyway.
In the canon Clans, this causes vote-proof blocks of Bloodhouses, such that just a few Houses effectively rule their Clan. Fragmentation of their votes is only possible when an outside force nibbles off a couple from the exclusive Bloodnames, something considered rare by 3050.

Now, in an environment where you have a regular influx of merit-based new Bloodnames/Houses, the power in the Counsel gets more and more fragmented, and the ability of a voting cartel dwindles.
Especially if you break up Bloodhouses when you split off a new Clan.

Grand Counsel: basically same thing, except you have a shifting pattern of votes as new Clans are formed. The effect is less pronounced, but in this "should've been this way" scenario, most of the power for the decisions that matter is on the Clan Counsel level, and a Grand Counsel and ilKhan is something you raise up as the situation calls for it, not a permanent body.

[Colt Ward]

Also Brahe (CHH) was new as well

Brahe was Warden Wolf- where did it pop up Hell's Horses?

I missed this.  What about the decor?

In the opening of Divided Alaric was meeting with the Custos in a replica of the Grand & Clan Council type stadium seating.

*snip*

Except . . . not all of the Bloodname holders, even of a exclusive Bloodname, always reside in their original Clan- it makes the Bloodhouse politics one of the most interesting aspects of the Clans but it has never been explored.  FREX, one of the highest ranking Smoke Jaguars at the time of Op Bulldog was a Ward- so he votes in the Smoke Jaguar Clan Council but participates in Ward Bloodhouse politics of Clan Wolf, which means when Cyrilla (before her death) went to muster Ward votes she had at most 24 in the Clan Council . . . and then, oh yeah philosophical disagreements!  Conal Ward was one of the leaders of the Crusaders while Cyrilla was a Warden- so could she really get all 24 to vote the same way?

The 32nd slot on the Trial of Bloodname is the one that comes from the Grand Melee . . . which is someone who did not have a sponsor or were the 7 top warriors picked by whatever criteria (by the sounds some ranking system the Clan or House keeps up) the Bloodhouse follows.  By the example of Trent and Jasmin of the Howells, we also see the politics of the Clan working on the Bloodhouse- Trent's sponsor took a political hit and to smooth things over had to nominate someone else for the Bloodname, IIRC Lincoln Osis wanted Jasmin.

But with the way that before the Invasions most Clans had a minority of their original 40 names for their exclusive- either from lost Trials or exchanges between allies (like McKibben) you are going to end up with more 'small blocks' than the 'big blocks' like the Wolves have with Kerensky(s), Ward, Fetladral, and the rest.

We also know that before the Invasions Bloodhouses had less than their full 25 bloodheritages in use, since as part of the Op Revival the Invading Clans re-activated unused Blood Heritages to increase the bloodnamed count.


Now . . . the IS Clans post-Jihad are a lot closer to what you are suggesting because-

Trial of Founding?- Once a year, a warrior is nominated to found a bloodhouse.  The Clan Council votes, which sets the ratio and it is bid down.  A warrior only gets one chance to found a bloodname.  IIRC from the Magnusson example, it started out with 10 bloodnames when the first generations tested to be warriors and then added more over time as more of the warriors reached maturity.  So far as stated we have Magnusson and Brahe created this way- guess Avellar but I do not recall this . . .

Trial of Propagation/Reaving-  A Trial that is called to either increase or decrease the bloodname count (thus changing the voting bloc potential) based on their success or failure in battle- either political or tactical.

And then there is the Smoke Jaguar issue.

[Gaiiten]

While there has been a bit of a shift come 3150, in theory the body that has power in the Clan in the Counsel. Votes in that are restricted to Bloodnamed individuals, an almost literal 'counsel of lords' since eligibility is effectively 100% hereditary. The fact that you must also fight your way to the top is irrelevant; it's not like a particular Bloodright is going to be left fallow because there are not enough worthy individuals. By the 3050s, it's common for a Bloodname Trial to have 32 candidates, plus another batch in the Melee. Kind of ludicrous when you consider there's hundreds of Bloodrights, and even Bloodnamed individuals don't have careers much beyond their 40s... In my opinion one of those little booboos back then when they didn't consider scale enough (remember the quote about the multitude of ilKhans? Unpossible!)

Anyway.
In the canon Clans, this causes vote-proof blocks of Bloodhouses, such that just a few Houses effectively rule their Clan. Fragmentation of their votes is only possible when an outside force nibbles off a couple from the exclusive Bloodnames, something considered rare by 3050.

Now, in an environment where you have a regular influx of merit-based new Bloodnames/Houses, the power in the Counsel gets more and more fragmented, and the ability of a voting cartel dwindles.
Especially if you break up Bloodhouses when you split off a new Clan.

Grand Counsel: basically same thing, except you have a shifting pattern of votes as new Clans are formed. The effect is less pronounced, but in this "should've been this way" scenario, most of the power for the decisions that matter is on the Clan Counsel level, and a Grand Counsel and ilKhan is something you raise up as the situation calls for it, not a permanent body.

Interesting.

So when the Star Adders created the Stone Lions, they did break up the Viper`s political dominance and did probably the most innovative what Clans did since the Invasion?

[Paul]

No, they copied the Jade Falcons.

[Colt Ward]

No, they copied the Jade Falcons.

 . . . does that make them tainted?

[Gaiiten]

No, they copied the Jade Falcons.

They did it a far better way, given what the Jade Wolves`Khan had done to his "founder".

[Colt Ward]

Crichell was not the Jade Wolves founder however . . . that would be Vlad Ward and the rest of the bloodnamed.  Crichell was just their former Khan.

[Gaiiten]

Crichell was not the Jade Wolves founder however . . . that would be Vlad Ward and the rest of the bloodnamed.  Crichell was just their former Khan.

Well, no.
Elias Crichell announced the the formation of the a new Clan called Jade Wolf (source Malicious Intent).

Later after Vlad Ward cut Elias Crichell`s air circulation, he announced that the Jade Wolves are Clan Wolf.

[Colt Ward]

I know that, never questioned any of that . . . but you said what the Jade Wolves Khan did to his founder.  Merely pointing out that Crichell was not the Jade Wolves founder- to be one he would have had to join the new Clan.  Creator maybe, but not founder.

[Gaiiten]

Ok, in creator I can agree  :)

[Talen5000]

Well, no.
Elias Crichell announced the the formation of the a new Clan called Jade Wolf (source Malicious Intent).

Later after Vlad Ward cut Elias Crichell`s air circulation, he announced that the Jade Wolves are Clan Wolf.

No - Vlad created a new Clan and transferred all of Clan Jade Wolfs assets to it.
Either way, Crichell was Vlads former Khan as he was a Jade Falcon for a short while.