Star Trek general thread

[Kentares]

This is what I want from the ST franchise instead of that thing called Discovery (no prequels stuff and no alternate timelines - forward with the prime timeline is the way). Expected a bit better but since its the first episode Im going to give the show the benefit of doubt. Too many questions at this time... Lets see where this goes.

[Dragon Cat]

The implication is that the decision to not proceed with the rescue was political rather than practical - Picard says he convinced the Federation to help.  Given the reporter seemed hostile to the idea of helping Romulans in general on account of their belligerent history and how senior officers and politicians have been portrayed in Star Trek, it's entirely plausible that people used the attack on Mars as an excuse to not help and/or to stick it to the Romulans.

I think you're right the way Picard reacts Starfleet has turned it's back on rescue missions that dont cover their own people and are being use almost defensive in nature

The attack on Mars made them sit on their heels instead of stepping out and exploring, helping and fighting for what is right

I'm wondering if that's what Discovery is alluding to as well for season 3 that the Federation has withered to memory or a fraction of its size because of its inaction

Picard has always stood up for the Federation helping others and standing in the way of injustice for them to turn their backs on that in his own words "was not only dishonourable but criminal?"

[ActionButler]

The supernova was explained in Star Trek (2009), the first of the rebooted "Kelvin Timeline" films. It's the inciting event of that film that caused Nero to travel back in time and spawn a new timeline. This series takes place in the Prime Timeline some two decades or so later.

I... am... an idiot.

I never would have connected the two.  I always forget that’s why Nero is after Spock and only ever remember the attack on Vulcan.

So... that raises another question that I think you already answered, but are there two active canon timelines now? An original timeline that includes TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager, and an Abrams timeline? I guess I always assumed that the Abrams reboot just annihilated the classic series’ entirely.

[Wrangler]

Its possible the Abrams timeline may have stopped due to the actors and disagreements in making another film has cancelled 4th film at the moment.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, the Abrams verse is a separate timeline. It basically has to be given the way the movie and TV rights are split.

[roosterboy]

Its possible the Abrams timeline may have stopped due to the actors and disagreements in making another film has cancelled 4th film at the moment.

As of November 2019, Star Trek 4 was back on, with Noah Hawley (creator of Fargo and Legion on FX) writing and directing and all five main cast set to return. Possible release date in 2021.

An original timeline that includes TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager

...and Enterprise, Discovery and Picard.

Presumably the upcoming animated Lower Decks will likewise be set in the Prime Timeline.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Yeah, the Abrams verse is a separate timeline. It basically has to be given the way the movie and TV rights are split.

Think of it as another Mirror Universe except not.  A Window Pane Universe maybe?  Things are mostly the same, just tinted a little.

[dgorsman]

Is Discovery the same though?  Cause at the very least there's batleth and mekleth which look like a bent pipe and cement trowels, respectively (plus other weirdness).  One point I was glad of in Picard - they showed a 'proper' batleth in Picard's personal vault.

[Wrangler]

I have to disagree with Discovery being part of it based on a lot of the technologies were radically changed to be able line up with TOS. 
Also, there was also talk business wise, CBS desire to resurrect old timeline due to leadership wanting not have legal issue since Paramount and CBS split.  However, this situation may have changed.

[monbvol]

Well considering there is no more IP rights split because CBS/Paramount/Viacom are now one and the same again I suspect some things have changed.

I have to disagree with Discovery being part of it based on a lot of the technologies were radically changed to be able line up with TOS. 
Also, there was also talk business wise, CBS desire to resurrect old timeline due to leadership wanting not have legal issue since Paramount and CBS split.  However, this situation may have changed.

Those who have the authority to decide such things say it is prime timeline and a prequel.

Personally I have a similar head canon that it is a separate timeline and Anti-trekker on youtube actually worked out a pretty good one that explains a lot of things quite nicely.

[BirdofPrey]

Personally, I always feel like these timeline arguments are little more than inventing new reasons not to like something.  Perfectly fine to not like something, of course, but it starts to become a stretch when people start nitpicking because they feel like they need to justify their disdain or start telling people differing opinions are wrong.
Maybe it WOULD have been better to set Discovery in a different timeline considering they pretty much had to tech up a bit to avoid alienating modern audiences, but they didn't so it is what it is.  Really, aside from the make-up thing there's not really much there that's super egregious.

Speaking of Discovery, I had a thought recently: in season 1 everyone was accusing Burham of being a Mary Sue, and I never thought that was the case.  She was for sure a sole protagonist in an ensemble work, but as much as she got blamed for everything, events didn't really revolve around here.  The irony is in Season 2 where they pulled back to give other characters time to shine, they MASSIVELY upped her sueness by making her the central macguffin.  The universe doesn't just rovolve around her, time itself does now.  Still enjoyed it more than Season 1, but damn.

I've also gone back and started a full rewatch of TNG in its entirety (i've watched full seasons before, but never the entire series, and I usually gave the first season a skip) and I am really struggling to get through the first couple of seasons.  They are so inconsistent with episodes so terrible it's actively giving me viewer fatigue where I have to take a break every few episodes.  I knew the first couple seasons were bad but I didn't realize they were this bad.  This may actually be the worst Star trek has to offer.  The other series had pretty rocky starts too, but I remember them being more mediocre than downright terrible even if Enterprise and Voyager tended to get pretty dumb throughout their runs and were worse overall than TNG.

[roosterboy]

I have to disagree with Discovery being part of it based on a lot of the technologies were radically changed to be able line up with TOS. 

Disagree all you want; doesn't change the fact that it is a Prime Timeline show.

Also, there was also talk business wise, CBS desire to resurrect old timeline due to leadership wanting not have legal issue since Paramount and CBS split.

No there wasn't.

[Lorcan Nagle]

I've also gone back and started a full rewatch of TNG in its entirety (i've watched full seasons before, but never the entire series, and I usually gave the first season a skip) and I am really struggling to get through the first couple of seasons.  They are so inconsistent with episodes so terrible it's actively giving me viewer fatigue where I have to take a break every few episodes.  I knew the first couple seasons were bad but I didn't realize they were this bad.  This may actually be the worst Star trek has to offer.  The other series had pretty rocky starts too, but I remember them being more mediocre than downright terrible even if Enterprise and Voyager tended to get pretty dumb throughout their runs and were worse overall than TNG.

Someone recently described TNG as being 2 years of a ropey TOS remake and 5 years of being a sequel to TOS, and that feels about right.  It definitely got better after Roddenberry was sidelined and most of the writers he brought in had left.

[rebs]

Someone recently described TNG as being 2 years of a ropey TOS remake and 5 years of being a sequel to TOS, and that feels about right.  It definitely got better after Roddenberry was sidelined and most of the writers he brought in had left.

Sometimes your creation outgrows you.  Something similar happened with a certain other star faring franchise and its creator, too. 

[BirdofPrey]

Someone recently described TNG as being 2 years of a ropey TOS remake and 5 years of being a sequel to TOS, and that feels about right.  It definitely got better after Roddenberry was sidelined and most of the writers he brought in had left.

My understanding is a large number of early plots were actually recycled scripts written for Phase II before that got retooled into The Motion Picture and a couple were unused TOS scripts.

Honestly this is why I roll my eyes a bit when someone brings up "Gene's Vision" because Star Trek got so much better after he was removed.

[Lorcan Nagle]

My understanding is a large number of early plots were actually recycled scripts written for Phase II before that got retooled into The Motion Picture and a couple were unused TOS scripts.

Only three Phase II stories wound up being reused - "In Thy Image", which became TMP, and "The Child" and "Devil's Due", both TNG episodes.

Honestly this is why I roll my eyes a bit when someone brings up "Gene's Vision" because Star Trek got so much better after he was removed.

Roddenberry hated Undiscovered Country so much he was planing to sue Paramount to try and block its release when he died.  And this was after he told the producers he loved it following a test screening.

[Wrangler]

Roddenberry hated Undiscovered Country so much he was planing to sue Paramount to try and block its release when he died.  And this was after he told the producers he loved it following a test screening.

Sounds like man who was on the outside of franchise looking in raging at what he knows about it until he actually sees it.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Let's not forget that later TNG had its share of stinkers as well.  Sub Rosa and Masks, for example.  To be fair, it also had some of the finest storytelling in TV, The Inner Light being my personal pinnacle thereof.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Well, it did have the misfortune of getting hit with a writer's strike, didn't it?

[Triptych]

Watched the first episode of Picard, and it was so-so.

While the whole thing is better than I thought, something felt missing. Thinking about it afterwards, I realized that the main character feels just ordinary to me now, because he isnt commanding the Enterprise anymore, so that's why it seemed a little off.

[Lorcan Nagle]

Well, it did have the misfortune of getting hit with a writer's strike, didn't it?

During series 2, yeah.  Which is why The Child got dusted off, there's a clip show in there, and it has 4 fewer episodes than the other 6

[Ruger]

Let's not forget that later TNG had its share of stinkers as well.  Sub Rosa and Masks, for example.  To be fair, it also had some of the finest storytelling in TV, The Inner Light being my personal pinnacle thereof.

I have to disagree about “Masks”. I won’t say it’s anywhere near a best or even really good episode, but it excels at demonstrating the acting chops of Brent Spiner. In one episode, he effectively portrays about a dozen different characters or more. Much as “Infinite Regress” did in Star Trek Voyager for Jeri Ryan.

Ruger

[ANS Kamas P81]

I'll give you that about Spiner, but it's still a really, really weak story.  Now if we're going all-out, let's just say Rascals.  The kids were good actors but holy hell the plot of that was a hot unbelievable mess.

[dgorsman]

Was that the one where they de-aged the core characters and Ferengi took over?  Or the one with "Captain Picard Day"?

[BirdofPrey]

I think so.

I was thinking Captain Picard Day was in Disaster (since that's one where he has to interact with a bunch of kids and gets stuck in an elevator with them), but Memory Alpha says it's Pegasus.

and yeah I concur that Masks was kinda blegh even if it did let Spiner show off.  Speaking of acting chops, I hope Picard lets Jeri Ryan show hers off.  Voyager was pretty terrible to her; she's a very good actor but ended up spending most of her time as just a set of tits.  Actually, I think Troi was a similar deal, most of TNG's run she existed to wear a low cut jumpsuit and either tell the captain the blatantly obvious or get possessed by the entity of the week.  It was only the 6th or 7th season where they figure out how to do something useful with her, and by the 7th season they were running out of fresh plots.

[Lorcan Nagle]

I have to say, I like Masks.  But I also don't get the hate for Genesis.  I mean, yeah, the science is terrible, but it's Star Trek.  The science is always terrible.

[ANS Kamas P81]

I have to say, I like Masks.  But I also don't get the hate for Genesis.  I mean, yeah, the science is terrible, but it's Star Trek.  The science is always terrible.

Genesis?

[Triptych]

I have to say, I like Masks.  But I also don't get the hate for Genesis.  I mean, yeah, the science is terrible, but it's Star Trek.  The science is always terrible.

Let's face it- Trek is really just space opera. They dont actually do science, but rather pseudoscience.

[Lorcan Nagle]

Genesis?

The episode where everyone "de-evolves" into animals.  It's often cited alongside Masks and a few other series 7 episodes as as signs that TNG had outstayed its welcome.

Let's face it- Trek is really just space opera. They dont actually do science, but rather pseudoscience.

Oh yeah, it astounds me when people act like Trek or Star Wars are these vast, well thought-out and consistent Hard SF universes.

[ANS Kamas P81]

OH that one yes.  Spider-Barclay still gives me nightmares, but it also gave us Jonathan Frakes flipping the bird on TV so it balances out I suppose.