Smoke Jaguar second line RAT.

[Sami Jumppanen]

Is there any Clan Smoke Jaguar -random aviability tables for second line units anywere? Also, i need to find tables for other unit types namely vehicles and ASFs. BA tables aren't realy needed as this particular clan died before clans started to make new types.

[martian]

Is there any Clan Smoke Jaguar -random aviability tables for second line units anywere? Also, i need to find tables for other unit types namely vehicles and ASFs. BA tables aren't realy needed as this particular clan died before clans started to make new types.

That's gonna be a problem.

Era Report: 3052 shows RATs for frontline forces. (3050)

Tukayyid shows predominatly frontline equipment, but it has partial second-line RAT for Jaguars. (3052)

One RAT is in Historical Turning Points: Luzerne, but it is not for PGCs. Actually this table shows better equipment than common Jaguar PGC would have got. (3059)

You may check Dragon Roars, but it's not much useful. (3059)
Twilight of the Clans is much better for this. (3060)

Personally I would say that you should use RATs from Field Manual: Crusader Clans. Unfortunately Clan Smoke Jaguar second-line RAT is missing there, but it can't be that much different from other Crusader Clans. (3059)

Something similar can be said about RATs included in Field Manual: Updates. You can take RATs of other Crusaders as inspiration. (3067)

[cold1]

Might have to fudge your own from multiple sources that Martian just listed.  But if you do let us see your work.  Something I'd like to get a handle on as well.

[martian]

Might have to fudge your own from multiple sources that Martian just listed.  But if you do let us see your work.  Something I'd like to get a handle on as well.

That's not necessary.

RATs from the FM: Crusader Clans are quite sufficient, and if you need greater detail, just check last pages of Twilight of the Clans.
Although it is no classical RAT, there are listed all 'Mechs you may find in second-line units of late Clan Smoke Jaguar. The only problem is how to make some random selection, but other than that it's very exhaustive list of old Star League equipment, newer Clan second-line BattleMechs (IICs) and captured Inner Sphere 'Mechs (from ancient relics to then-modern 3050+ 'Mechs - just anything Jaguars met during their push into the Inner Sphere).

[truetanker]

Quick and dirty:

Any Sl-era Royal and non-Royal Battlemech up to Klondike
Any IS Omni Configuration -R variant, isola swings both ways
Any IIC up to 3060-era: 1st, 2nd and possible 3rd variant

All 1st Gen Protomechs
All 1st Gen Battle Armor, Toad more so than any other type
All standard Clan Omnifighter variants
All SL-era Royal, non-Royal and standard Clan Aerospace fighters
All Sl-era Royal, non-Royal up to Klondike and standard Clan Vehicles

Am I close martian?

TT
[edit:] modified Vehicels to reflect non-Royal cut off

[Tai Dai Cultist]

IIRC some 3rd ed RPG books had some tables for generating mech assignments for Smoke Jaguar characters.

Might take some work to tune it specifically to being a 2nd line RAT, but it's potentially a starting point.

[Sami Jumppanen]

Thanks for advices. I believe that i just use that Clan Wolf RAT in FM:CrC i just need to replace all Omni mechs with some iconic Smoke Jaguar mech. I think Warhawk would be for the Assaults. Timber Wolf for the Heavy. But how about the rest? I can't remember and light or Medium that are typical to smokies? Hankuy? Ryoken? Mist Lynx?

[calendraug]

If i remember rightly they were almost as fond of the mad dog as the bears. shadowcat and direwolf were fairly common too.
And I think they were the clan that reworked the Matar(amaris' folly) into the Behemoth.

[Sami Jumppanen]

If i remember rightly they were almost as fond of the mad dog as the bears. shadowcat and direwolf were fairly common too.
And I think they were the clan that reworked the Matar(amaris' folly) into the Behemoth.

Mad Dog is a good alternative, Shadowcat is a bit unjaguar even if those are common and Direwolf is a bit too much unless i wish to make this fight realy epic. As for Behemoth you are correct. I should pick a RAT that has one in it. Jade Falcon RAT would be otherwise convenient if it didn't have Phoenix Hawk IIC in it. IIRC PH IIC doesn't exist around -50s.

[martian]

Quick and dirty:
...
Am I close martian?

TT

Yes, you are. Perhaps I'd only limit contemporary 'Mechs from other Clans to mid-3050s because I think that there wouldn't be enough time to disseminate among Clans.

And personally I wouldn't put OmniMechs into second-line and solahma Clusters. I doubt Jaguars would waste such equipment on Warriors who outlived their usefulness.

[martian]

Here is my attempt to create RAT for second-line forces of Clan Smoke Jaguar. So what do you think about it?

http://www.mediafire.com/?p6bpr2zzcorp6m3

[Sami Jumppanen]

Here is my attempt to create RAT for second-line forces of Clan Smoke Jaguar. So what do you think about it?

http://www.mediafire.com/?p6bpr2zzcorp6m3

I think that FM:CrC is more usefull. I can get a good mix with them right off and not as much need to wonder if some mech was around at that time.

As for Jaguars using Omnis in second line unit i was thinking of using them as command units.

[martian]

I think that FM:CrC is more usefull. I can get a good mix with them right off and not as much need to wonder if some mech was around at that time.

As for Jaguars using Omnis in second line unit i was thinking of using them as command units.

Suit yourself. I have tried to stick to canon with 'Mechs and their variants (used by Smoke Jaguars) when it was possible.

I should pick a RAT that has one in it. Jade Falcon RAT would be otherwise convenient if it didn't have Phoenix Hawk IIC in it. IIRC PH IIC doesn't exist around -50s.

Phoenix Hawk IIC is from 2851. So it is available in 3050s.

[Ian Sharpe]

Mechs that hit hard.  Mix in actual second liners like the Peregrine, Highlander IIC, Commando IIC with hard hitting IS designs like the Hunchback, Trebuchet, and Jenner, and some SLDF designs, like the Thug or Sling.  Guns, speed, then armour.  Unless you need the payload, then its OK to ignore armour entirely.  I'd use older or less capable omnimechs, like the Nova or Hellbringer, but only in Nova Stars.  The main benefit is getting Eles to the field. 

[Sami Jumppanen]

Phoenix Hawk IIC is from 2851. So it is available in 3050s.

I thought that Sharks made it for sale after the invasion? Or was that just some variant of it?

[martian]

I thought that Sharks made it for sale after the invasion? Or was that just some variant of it?

Those were Phoenix Hawk IIC models 3 and 4 (from 3062 and newer). Clan Smoke Jaguar was dead by then.

If you want to stick to canon facts, you can use either Phoenix Hawk IIC base model or variant 1. And even those were extremely rare among Smoke Jaguars.

[Sami Jumppanen]

Those were Phoenix Hawk IIC models 3 and 4 (from 3062 and newer). Clan Smoke Jaguar was dead by then.

If you want to stick to canon facts, you can use either Phoenix Hawk IIC base model or variant 1. And even those were extremely rare among Smoke Jaguars.

So that is why i was thinking PH IIC wasn't around then.

And that rules out the JF RAT.


Cougar is definitely out of the question. It was first sighted during the Coventry campaing with JFs and rarely seen with others untill Highlanders took a trip to periphery. So it won't be seen in a second line unit untill jaguars do the dodo thing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I doubt Jaguars would waste such equipment on Warriors who outlived their usefulness.

No, there are Omnis present in most of the second-line Jag units listed in The Dragon Roars scenarios.

The RAT listed in HTP: Luzerne also features OmniMechs, at least half of the selection for all weight classes. The one Front-line unit in the "book" (out of three Jag commands) has the option to trade out BattleMech selections for equivalent-weighing Omnis. I'd therefore say using the RATs from Historical Turning Point: Luzerne would be the best ones to use.

[George_Labour]

Worth noting the Jaguars were the ones building Stone Rhinos (Behemoth) so there's a very probable Second Line big boy for the heavier units. Heck they were the ones who developed it from the failed Matar prototoype (AKA Amaris's folly)

[martian]

No, there are Omnis present in most of the second-line Jag units listed in The Dragon Roars scenarios.

In most?

Scenario 1 shows frontline unit.
Scenario 2 shows frontline unit.
Scenario 5 shows frontline unit.
Scenario 6 shows frontline unit.
Scenario 7 shows frontline unit put in second-line Galaxy (Jaguar Regulars). Eight of fifteen 'Mechs are Omnis.
Scenario 8 shows frontline unit.
Scenario 9 shows frontline unit.
Scenario 10 shows frontline unit put in second-line Galaxy (Jaguar Regulars). All Omnis.
Scenario 11 shows frontline unit put in second-line Galaxy (Jaguar Regulars). Four of five 'Mechs are Omnis. By the way, this scenario makes Victor Steiner-Davion a pilot with Gunnery "0" if you use the special rule offered.
Scenario 12 shows frontline unit put in second-line Galaxy (Jaguar Regulars). Five of ten 'Mechs are Omnis.
Battleforce scenario shows frontline unit.

In whole scenario book we don't get a glimpse how typical Provisional Garrison Cluster may look like.

OmniMechs are present in Galaxy Command Trinaries or Keshiks, but usually not among common second-line warriors filling most of PGCs.

The RAT listed in HTP: Luzerne also features OmniMechs, at least half of the selection for all weight classes. The one Front-line unit in the "book" (out of three Jag commands) has the option to trade out BattleMech selections for equivalent-weighing Omnis. I'd therefore say using the RATs from Historical Turning Point: Luzerne would be the best ones to use.

In HTP: Luzerne player may choose between one Galaxy Command Trinary (which can hardly be considered common), one frontline Cluster (which is not in scope of this thread) and one PGC (which is fluffed as as one of the best second-line forces CSJ had to offer, and which could easily pass as frontline unit). That's hardly a typical situation and hardly a typical Smoke Jaguar garrison.

Worth noting the Jaguars were the ones building Stone Rhinos (Behemoth) so there's a very probable Second Line big boy for the heavier units. Heck they were the ones who developed it from the failed Matar prototoype (AKA Amaris's folly)

And that's why I allocated two slots in my Jaguar RAT for them.

[Crimson Dynamo]

<snip>

The Jaguar Regulars, exactly my point. What's making you call Regulars Clusters "front-line units in second-line galaxies?" I'm not sure that distinction has ever been implicitly made. I can't find anything that would indicate as such in the books I have. That all the front-line Galaxy units are Omni-exclusive where as the Regulars contain BattleMechs is pretty telling as to where they sat on the front-line/second-line divide.

In HTP: Luzerne player may choose between one Galaxy Command Trinary (which can hardly be considered common), one frontline Cluster (which is not in scope of this thread) and one PGC (which is fluffed as as one of the best second-line forces CSJ had to offer, and which could easily pass as frontline unit). That's hardly a typical situation and hardly a typical Smoke Jaguar garrison.

But yet only the 6th Striker has any option to trade a BattleMech result for an OmniMech, as befitting a true front-line unit. The other two may or may not be atypical of second-line units, but the fact remains that they are considered second-line formations, making the RATs tailored to a Jaguar second-line unit. Full credit to you for making your own, but I'd favor the official ones in the HTP for anything but a Huntress unit or a PGC on the Periphery border of the OZ.

[Hellraiser]

Few things: 

1.  SJ RAT in BMR is mostly front line stuff but has a couple 2nd liners on it.

2.  1st Royal SLDF BM Regiment is all equiped from Huntress & is suggested they use Wolf 2nd Line Rat FMCC.

3.  If you are constructing a RAT for 2nd line then remember the following mechs all produced/favored by the Jags.

Second Line
Locust-IIC  (1&3)
Horned Owl  (1&2)
HunchBack-IIC
WarHammer-IIC (1&2)
StoneRhino

Front Line Flavor
MistLynx
ArcticCheetah
StormCrow
ShadowCat
Grendel
MadDog
EbonJaguar
HellBringer
Gargoyle
WarHawk
DireWolf

Any 2750 Mech

[truetanker]

Hellraiser~ see reply #4.

This goes for any clan!

TT

[Hellraiser]

Hellraiser~ see reply #4.

This goes for any clan!

TT

I saw it, I just disagree with it.
Putting Royals on a SJ RAT IMHO isn't right, none of the other RATs got Royals on them a decade ago.
Not that I don't think its possible, just that its a different mind set.
I have to ask myself....... Am I building what reality says "could" be there,  OR,  Am I building something that looks like it should fit right in with FM:CC ?
In this case,  I was working off of the matching FM:CC idea.

[truetanker]

Back then, we didn't even know about Royal variants, everything was a non, (C) variants, or clan upgrades became the norm after first being shown in The Battle for Tywcross. Ad we didn't know about OP:Klondike untill recently.

To wit, previous sources are tumped with retcon of newier variants.

TT

[pensiveswetness]

we can also assume that many of the Royal-tech SLDF machines never survived the Pentagon Civil War, which is why they never were included in later books related to Operation Revival. The babalon campaign was fought with a total of a "regiment" or little more than so it presumes that of the the tens of thousands of machines that left on exodus (a guess as good as any) only a few thousand might have survived at all. Thats also why fluff entries for the Zephyr 'Arrow' are interesting: a clan machine that see it all, from start to great refusal and beyond LOL

[SCC]

I'd say that it's more likely the remaining Royal's were put into storage

[ANS Kamas P81]

Or traded to the Spirits for anything they could get.  Remember how desperate they were for ground units; "hey I'll give you a bunch of tanks and some mechs for that enclave of yours" turns out to be a bunch of old cached SL junk quite easily.

[Sami Jumppanen]

I saw it, I just disagree with it.
Putting Royals on a SJ RAT IMHO isn't right, none of the other RATs got Royals on them a decade ago.
Not that I don't think its possible, just that its a different mind set.
I have to ask myself....... Am I building what reality says "could" be there,  OR,  Am I building something that looks like it should fit right in with FM:CC ?
In this case,  I was working off of the matching FM:CC idea.

I agree with you about those Royal variants. I don't see using them unless i decide to use one as somekind of unique mech that is a bit more "the way i would have made it" and even then it is not likely to be like the official sheet.

[Ian Sharpe]

I would think the Royals would have been the first mechs to get pulled to be remade into IICs or to bulk out second line forces.  I can't think of any reason to use the line SLDF mechs and leave the Royals for later use. 

[martian]

I would think the Royals would have been the first mechs to get pulled to be remade into IICs or to bulk out second line forces.  I can't think of any reason to use the line SLDF mechs and leave the Royals for later use.

You are right.

Some posters have forgotten that Royals were retconned into canon in two primary publications (namely TRO:3075 (2008) and Operation Klondike (2010)). So "of course" it is not possible to find them in RAT in Field Manual: Crusader Clans (1998) or Tukayyid (1994).

In 90s most we knew about Royals were things such as "Star League Marauder was better" or "Gray Noton's Rifleman had some kind of advanced technology". And things like these, not much more.

[Ian Sharpe]

Aye, I have no objections if a Clan player fields Royal SLDF designs, but Royals wouldn't be prevalent among Clan second liners from a fluff perspective.  They would have been used up in the transition to Clan tech, made into IICs, destroyed in KLONDIKE, etc. 

But since I always say play with the mechs you like, you should use them.  I see no purpose in making designs and only letting players use them for very short timeframes.  I love the Stag, so I field it.  I know its not canon, but its awesome in its role.  I won't tell anyone they can't do the same thing I do(not that anyone in the thread was doing so; I just don't feel the Royals are easy to justify fluffwise). :)

[Sami Jumppanen]

You are right.

Some posters have forgotten that Royals were retconned into canon in two primary publications (namely TRO:3075 (2008) and Operation Klondike (2010)). So "of course" it is not possible to find them in RAT in Field Manual: Crusader Clans (1998) or Tukayyid (1994).

In 90s most we knew about Royals were things such as "Star League Marauder was better" or "Gray Noton's Rifleman had some kind of advanced technology". And things like these, not much more.

During FM:CC era these Royal mechs would be propably taken as one-off designs that pilot managed to nag from someone.