What mechs are a great idea but really poor implimentation/comparison?

[phoenixalpha]

So I was looking at the Daikyu and thought.. it's almost a better Marauder 3R.... but fails pretty much on every level. Its faster, but with the fragility of an XL. It has better damage rating than the Marauder, but only if every weapon hits and hits with a full spread. It has better heat dispersal, but only just, it has better armour, but then again only just. So its a better armoured, faster, heavier hitting Marauder 3R

But you can get nearly 2.5 Marauders for the price of a Daikyu and BV wise...  its 250 points cheaper than a Daikyu.

So on paper the Daikyu is a better mech, but is it worth it....

What other mechs are better on paper than actual in the field.

[Paul]

Nice topic.

I'd say the Thunderhawk. 3 GRs and all that armor seems awesome, but the combo of a nearly guaranteed GR explosion with an XL engine generally means they're surprisingly easy to remove. And it's that arm GR that's often the first to go, quickly followed by the adjacent torso.
TRO3058 is a bit of a 'boring 100 tonner' book anyway, but the T-Hawk tends to die a lot faster than Devastators and Pillagers. Let's lump the Nightstar in there as well. It's like FASA did an office contest about 2GR(+) top-range assaults and then printed all entries it got.

Excalibur from the same book. Swift heavy with excellent long range weaponry in an SLDF sized army seems plausible, but the 7 tons of armor, along with the XL engine and GR/ammo makes it a very desirable target to take out by the enemy. You might have a company of Flashman screening your company of Excaliburs, but your opponent's companies of Warhammers and Archers can reach out and wreck an Excalibur rapidly.

[monbvol]

All the Victors that have no CASE and can't fight past nine hexes(twelve with extreme range rules).

At that mass you need some firepower to reach out past 9 hexes.

I've lost entirely too many, even in city fights to find them to be all that they are cracked up to be.

[BrianDavion]

I'm going to note mech cost isn't terriably relevant in a world where the bottleneck is transport capacity not money

[Hellraiser]

All the Victors that have no CASE and can't fight past nine hexes(twelve with extreme range rules).

At that mass you need some firepower to reach out past 9 hexes.

I've lost entirely too many, even in city fights to find them to be all that they are cracked up to be.

See I'm the opposite, the OG 9B has always done great by me.
The 9A/9A1 is different, the added armor loss is too much but the basic model works well.
Now, I'm also not running it out in the mid field across the way from a bunch of LRM Carriers either, I screen it w/ other units & keep it concealed as it advances.
I've taken real pleasure using it to rip open Zombie-Awesomes by not letting them see me clearly till I'm right on top of them.

[BrianDavion]

I've taken real pleasure using it to rip open Zombie-Awesomes by not letting them see me clearly till I'm right on top of them.

... Ardan, is that you? :)

[Hellraiser]

Hehe, 
I didn't say I didn't get the idea from Ardan/Patrick & some books in 1988 :)
Just that I liked repeating it over the years. 

[Lance Leader]

  The Fireball.  The concept of an extremely fast anti-elemental mech that run from formation to formation clearing away battle armor is great one, the problem is that a single machine gun and a streak SRM 2 do practically nothing to battle armor.

[Hellraiser]

  The Fireball.

Agreed, for the same 4 tons you could have 3 Medium Lasers & a Small Pulse Laser for AI work.

[Prospernia]

The Urbie:  it's not very good in a city.

The Vulcan:  great against infantry, but 90% of the time, it's facing other mechs.

The Catapult, the Arrow, any mech designed as support.   It does the same job a simple tank can do, but at five times the cost.

[Starfury]

The Quickdraw. A fast moving 60 tonner with rear firing guns. If you're going to skirmish, make sure you point all of your guns in one direction. You'll live longer.

The Hatchetman (at least until the 3060s)
Don't mount guns on your melee weapon arm. Make sure you have more then one ton of ammo for your main gun. Put double heat sinks in your mech if you're going to use energy weapons as your backup.

The Jackal. A fast moving energy sniper is great, but make sure you give your mech double heat sinks so you can fire the main gun every turn. I understand you're Marik, but don't take 11 years to realize you made a mistake.

The Falcon. A 30 ton medium, heavily armored scout hunter is nice, but don't put rear firing MGs on a mech with less firepower then what it hunts.

The Assassin.  Please don't keep making fast mechs with no guns. It hurts.

The Cyclops-Here's a hint. If you're going to build a command mech, armor it up.

The Shadow Hawk-A jack of all trades needs to be able to actually be one. Don't make variants that are worse then the main model, and please stop using SRM-2s. They do nothing to help your damage output. The 5M is a nice start, but add more LRM ammo I'd you're going to give it a bigger launcher. 

The Bombardier: Why?

[Natasha Kerensky]

Original AS7-D Atlas.  With only an LRM-20 to hit anything beyond 270 meters, the Atlas fails the “as powerful as possible” criterion that Alex Kerensky laid down for it, especially in combination with a 54kph top speed, which ensures that better-armed medium troopers can stay outside its bubble of death until crippled.  Only works situationally in LOS-restrictive terrain or artificially small map boards.

[garhkal]

All the Victors that have no CASE and can't fight past nine hexes(twelve with extreme range rules).

At that mass you need some firepower to reach out past 9 hexes.

Are there any other mechs that suffer the same issue??

Agreed, for the same 4 tons you could have 3 Medium Lasers & a Small Pulse Laser for AI work.

OR a LOT of small pulses, to tear into ba..

The Hatchetman (at least until the 3060s)
Don't mount guns on your melee weapon arm. Make sure you have more then one ton of ammo for your main gun. Put double heat sinks in your mech if you're going to use energy weapons as your backup.

I have NEVER EVER understood the concept they had with the Hatchetman, putting ML's into the same arm as its MAIN WEAPON, its hatchet..

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's fine if you put one weapon in the same arm as a melee weapon, preferably a long-range weapon that you wouldn't want to use at hatchet-range in the first place.  Helps keep you from having a blind spot in your side arc.  The real issue is when the arm gets packed with guns that greatly outperform the hatchet, like the AX-1N's three medium lasers.

[SteelRaven]

Meh, might as well make all the Golden BB fans upset at once a say anything with a AC/2. Investing way too much tonnage for 2 points of damage regardless of range.

Mauler, 24 tons for maybe 8 damage. JagerMech 12 tons + ammo that could have been devoted to armor and heat sinks. ect.

I get it, It has some crazy reach ... but 2 damage? Less than a small laser? Not for more tonnage than a LRM 10 or a Large Laser.   

[Charistoph]

The Quickdraw. A fast moving 60 tonner with rear firing guns. If you're going to skirmish, make sure you point all of your guns in one direction. You'll live longer.

I was going to say the Quickdraw, but mainly because its fluffed as a replacement for the Rifleman.

A Skirmisher being used to replace Snipers/AA units...  There's too much whiskey to tango that foxtrot.

  The Fireball.  The concept of an extremely fast anti-elemental mech that run from formation to formation clearing away battle armor is great one, the problem is that a single machine gun and a streak SRM 2 do practically nothing to battle armor.

Pretty much.  It's a speedy scout, and makes for a great racing chassis, but the Komodo and Vulcan 5T is far better suited for taking out BA.

[Psycho]

Meh, might as well make all the Golden BB fans upset at once a say anything with a AC/2. Investing way too much tonnage for 2 points of damage regardless of range.   

My thought was the Ryoken II. Definitely part of the AC/2 brigade, with 4 LBXs. It does claim to be used as anti-air and anti-vehicle, which has some merit. 75 tons of Clan tech (including an XL) to do that though? Seems like a waste of resources to me. Then they made sure to give it hands, because native Rasalhague pilots like to engage in physical attacks... in a 'Mech exclusively armed with LRMs and LB2Xs. Something's not right there.

[Kithran]

[snip]
The Catapult, the Arrow, any mech designed as support.   It does the same job a simple tank can do, but at five times the cost.

Except keep close enough to mechs to provide support over rough terrain. Especially when you look at the speed of the support vehicles

[monbvol]

Are there any other mechs that suffer the same issue??

Id honestly say anything that can't move at least 5/8 or 6/9 should be able to fire past 9/12 hexes.  Even jungle/city fighters.  Because all too often I don't see the bubble of doom working out the way it really should.

I have NEVER EVER understood the concept they had with the Hatchetman, putting ML's into the same arm as its MAIN WEAPON, its hatchet..

Yeah I could forgive this on the Hatchetman if it were bigger and one Medium laser thus less of a big deal.

[ColBosch]

I have NEVER EVER understood the concept they had with the Hatchetman, putting ML's into the same arm as its MAIN WEAPON, its hatchet..

The hatchet used to be purely a fluff thing with no game effect, not even as a club. I do agree that once it got rules, they should've moved the ML out of that arm.

[abou]

  The Fireball.  The concept of an extremely fast anti-elemental mech that run from formation to formation clearing away battle armor is great one, the problem is that a single machine gun and a streak SRM 2 do practically nothing to battle armor.

To be fair, when the Fireball was first created the rules were different: the Streak SRM-2 used to be able to equip infernos.

[SteelRaven]

My thought was the Ryoken II. Definitely part of the AC/2 brigade, with 4 LBXs. It does claim to be used as anti-air and anti-vehicle, which has some merit. 75 tons of Clan tech (including an XL) to do that though? Seems like a waste of resources to me. Then they made sure to give it hands, because native Rasalhague pilots like to engage in physical attacks... in a 'Mech exclusively armed with LRMs and LB2Xs. Something's not right there.

Yeah, the Ryoken II is the first and most obvious example of WK's weird obsession with AC/2 in a game that they also wanted to center around melee. The later Storm Raider being the absolute worst in almost every aspect.

[Charistoph]

To be fair, when the Fireball was first created the rules were different: the Streak SRM-2 used to be able to equip infernos.

Even the fluff says that the Fireball was woefully ill-equipped for the job.  Even though Streak-2s could carry Infernos, only an idiot would allow their Infantry to be destroyed by them.  Infernos had no direct affect on Infantry (Conventional or BA), and would only set the hex on fire.  From there, the fire the Infernos created (the only way for Infernos to hurt BA in 1992) required that the unit end their Movement Phase in a hex that was on fire.  Technically speaking, if the the hex is put on fire AFTER the Movement Phase, it wouldn't directly affect them, so they can get out.  This didn't change till the Master Rules where fires lit in the Attack Phase could destroy Infantry on an 8+.

And that's even assuming that both optional rules for Infernos AND Fire were agreed to be played in the first place.

Even if Streak-2s were allowed Infernos today, it takes 3 Infernos hitting to do ANYTHING to the average Battle Armor, and 6 if they're carrying Fire-Resistant Armor.  The standard warheads are just better in this case, and they're not that good.

[JadeHellbringer]

I'm invoking my admin-powers to slightly alter the subject (I can do that, it's awesome to be mad with power!), and I'm going to throw in a vehicle. I know, I know, madness.

We know the story to the Magi, we know it's the product of bad defense-contractor shenanigans and SLDF spending-on-nothing gone awry, but at the end of the day... ever REALLY look at one? Like, what it is, what it does, what it DOESN'T do from a battlefield perspective? Never mind that it never should have been purchased, what it really brings? Because while a tough little IFV/crowd control unit sounds like a handy thing to have around...

+Three medium lasers, all in different arcs, with no ability to ever bring more than one to bear on a target.

+Total lack of a turret- hope those rioters are nice enough to stay in front of the vehicle where the MGs are.

+Expensive fusion engine for a unit designed for defensive roles (and thus not likely straying far from supply/fuel lines)

+SEVENTY ****** TONS. It weighs as much as an Archer for a fraction of the usefulness. And can't use small vehicle bays.

+No built-in infantry compartment. Figure an IFV could use some extra oomph? Tough shit.

+Seriously, an engine that weighs around what a Phoenix Hawk does, to cart around a mishmash of lasers to no real purpose.

Want to have some fun? Try building this 30 tons smaller. Don't change a thing other than the tonnage, and as a result the engine size. It's kinda hilarious actually.

[Kit deSummersville]

I'd say the Thunderhawk.

I have a rough draft of that book and originally it had DHS. I have no idea why they removed them.

[ColBosch]

We know the story to the Magi, we know it's the product of bad defense-contractor shenanigans and SLDF spending-on-nothing gone awry, but at the end of the day... ever REALLY look at one? Like, what it is, what it does, what it DOESN'T do from a battlefield perspective? Never mind that it never should have been purchased, what it really brings? Because while a tough little IFV/crowd control unit sounds like a handy thing to have around...

It feels a lot like Pentagon Wars, but the debacle that was the Bradley wasn't well-known at that point. But yowza, the Magi is a waste of...well, everything.

[Fat Guy]

How about the Bombardier? Over twice the cost of an Archer 2R with only half the endurance.

[SteelRaven]

It feels a lot like Pentagon Wars, but the debacle that was the Bradley wasn't well-known at that point. But yowza, the Magi is a waste of...well, everything.

Think it's more someone was bad at designing game units rather than some in universe meta commentary. Kind of like the Charger, it feels like someone just decided to build a unit around a large engine and laughed.

[ColBosch]

Think it's more someone was bad at designing game units rather than some in universe meta commentary. Kind of like the Charger, it feels like someone just decided to build a unit around a large engine and laughed.

I don't disagree.

[garhkal]

It's fine if you put one weapon in the same arm as a melee weapon, preferably a long-range weapon that you wouldn't want to use at hatchet-range in the first place.  Helps keep you from having a blind spot in your side arc.  The real issue is when the arm gets packed with guns that greatly outperform the hatchet, like the AX-1N's three medium lasers.

Hence why i called out MLS..  Two of my own designs, have 45 tonners, with a reg ppc, or LRM5 in the same arm as the hatchet, so it can contribute firing as it closes into melee.

How about the Bombardier? Over twice the cost of an Archer 2R with only half the endurance.

Agreed.  IMO ANY mech with LRMs (or acs), which has only ONE ton of ammo, giving it less than 10 shots per launcher/AC, is very stupidly designed.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, the Ryoken II is the first and most obvious example of WK's weird obsession with AC/2 in a game that they also wanted to center around melee. The later Storm Raider being the absolute worst in almost every aspect.

From what I heard, it was due to them starting with the mech's artwork and clicky stats, then having to backfill in Battletech stats based on them, so they had a lot of mechs (and vehicles) with a bunch of guns and the Ballistic damage type.  That meant they were stuck figuring out what they could fit two of in a single side torso for a mech that had that speed and mass.

[BATTLEMASTER]

How about the Bombardier? Over twice the cost of an Archer 2R with only half the endurance.

I can't agree with this on the basis that cbill costs are nonsense.

In a BV point of view I think it's a toss-up - maneuverability vs endurance.

[Retry]

Meh, might as well make all the Golden BB fans upset at once a say anything with a AC/2. Investing way too much tonnage for 2 points of damage regardless of range.

Mauler, 24 tons for maybe 8 damage. JagerMech 12 tons + ammo that could have been devoted to armor and heat sinks. ect.

I get it, It has some crazy reach ... but 2 damage? Less than a small laser? Not for more tonnage than a LRM 10 or a Large Laser.   

Counterpoint: Despite its heavier-than-necessary weight, the AC/2 does hold a valid niche: knocking down aircraft and VTOLs, both of which being able to make a hit is more important than the raw power of that hit.

The AC/5 however is a lemon.  If you have a unit with 1 AC/5, you'd have gotten better performance with a bracket-fire mix of short-ranged medium lasers and long-ranged LRMs.  If you have 2 AC/5s for some reason, you're always better off with a PPC + heat sinks.  The AC/2 has that one trump card, sheer range, that makes them useful for specific functions other than the basic "Kill 'Mech" role.  The AC/5 however is invariably outmoded by other weapons or combinations of weapons in any role.

Or to put it another way, I've seen field refits of AC/5s with PPCs, and sometimes even AC/5s replaced with AC/2s (In fact, one of these was a JM6-S, which significantly improved its AA capabilities and durability), and have them used for good effect.  On the other hand, I've not seen anyone voluntarily replace their existing equipment or combination of equipment to refit an AC/5.

[garhkal]

THe only way i'd do that, is for a RAC5.

[Kojak]

The 'Mech that immediately came to mind was the Helios. An escort 'Mech for your big slow gaussboats is a good idea, but the Helios just gets folded under any real fire.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Put the Helios's pilot in a red shirt and it makes more sense.

[JadeHellbringer]

From what I heard, it was due to them starting with the mech's artwork and clicky stats, then having to backfill in Battletech stats based on them, so they had a lot of mechs (and vehicles) with a bunch of guns and the Ballistic damage type.  That meant they were stuck figuring out what they could fit two of in a single side torso for a mech that had that speed and mass.

So... that's partly true, but it's a little more complicated than that.

Unique Mechs in the early few sets of MW:DA (everything up to and including the Falcon's Prey release)  had a little manila folder included that told you about the Mech and the pilot, sort of a miniature TRO/bio to flesh out what you had in your sweaty little palms. While those didn't include record sheets, of course, since this wasn't intended to be part of newly-rechristened Classic Battletech, it did give info on the Mech outside of that- name, ground speed, jumping, weaponry, manufacturer, that kind of thing.

In the case of the Ryoken II, which was actually from the very first MW:DA release, the dossier did indeed give stats for four LB-2X and two LRM-15. So in a case like that, there's clear stats to work from outside of the basic look of the Mech- and to their credit, the people who made Record Sheets: Dark Age did a pretty good job of taking those stats and making passable units out of them for Mechs like the Ryoken II, Arbalest, Atlas, etc.- and presumably later dossiers helped to flesh out units ranging from the Tian-Zong to the Gyrfalcon as sets continued to release.

Exceptions abound, naturally, since none of this was ever intended to convert to Battletech stats. The Shadow Cat II's dossier, if you build the Mech exactly as the dossier suggests, ends up with 1.5 tons of armor total as I recall. And of course, the Sun Cobra had the odd situation in which one dossier gave it twin Gauss rifles and a Clan background, another had twin PPCs and was Davion-made (and kudos to the authors for finding a way to make that work!). But at least in the case of the early releases, the dossiers were kept as close as possible for conversion in RS:MWDA to give us the Mechs in that book, rather than just saying 'those look like medium lasers, cool'. (Anything post-Falcon's Prey didn't have these handy dossiers, and definitely had to be reverse-engineered by looks alone)

[Minemech]

 The Firecracker, better known as the Commando (Or Firework...). As someone who likes featherweights, I admire how it was designed with such a flaw to give it character but wow. That theoretical firepower is genuinely a thing of beauty on paper. Its speed is barely adequate for recon. When you ambush people with it in double blind, make sure to wear your most seraphical smile.

[abou]

Infernos had no direct affect on Infantry (Conventional or BA), and would only set the hex on fire.

What, that can't be right...

*looks in BMR*

Hunh... well what about...

*looks in BTC:RoW*

Well that's just dumb. The Fireball is terrible.

I suppose its one benefit was that it was cheap enough in BV that you could harass 'mechs with it. With infernos it could limit some designs with heat or use its speed to always move to the rear of an opponent. However, that is using it in a way it was not canonically designed for.

[Retry]

Come to think of it, I suppose I should actually put in my take for this topic.

On the Inner Sphere side, the Helepolis.  High-mobility long-ranged tube artillery that can keep up and provide fire support for Battlemech formations is a good idea.  The Helepolis variants, though, mount backup weapons as though they're expecting to duke it out at point blank with other Battlemechs, and it really impedes what should be its core competency of mobile long-ranged indirect fire.  Really, it doesn't need more than a couple medium laser variants for backup, and should've just invested the rest of the weight for jump jets or a bigger engine.

On the Clan side, the Naga.  It's quite fast and very heavily armed as an artillery 'Mech, but why is this thing an omni?  There are five alternative configurations and none of them are meaningfully different due to the huge Arrows taking up what could have been pod space.  If I need Clan Artillery I'd rather just have a Bowman.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm surprised that the Gladiator omnimech hasn't been mentioned yet.  A fast, maneuverable assault mech?  Not a bad idea.  Sticking too-thin side torso armor on it along with a stupidly high amount of fixed heatsinks?  Bad.  I can excuse the fixed jump jets and MASC since they were still working out the rules for omnimechs at the time, but there's no excuse for the fixed heatsink that's outside the engine.

[Lone-Wolf]

I go with the head hunter mechs, like the Exterminator and the Spector.
Yes, they have stealth capabilities but then they lack the one-shot-kill capability if their target is in a mech.

[ColBosch]

I suppose its one benefit was that it was cheap enough in BV that you could harass 'mechs with it.

BV didn't exist yet, either.

[abou]

BV didn't exist yet, either.

BMR and MaxTech?

[ColBosch]

BMR and MaxTech?

TR3055 predates both of those.

[Charistoph]

BMR and MaxTech?

1998 and 1997 respectively.

TRO: 3055 was in 1992, between the two Compendiums.

At least if Sarna's correct.  I remember getting them both, but I wasn't buying anything after June 1997, due to a job change at that time.

[abou]

TR3055 predates both of those.

I am aware, but the rules change didn't happen until after Total Warfare. So referring to BV isn't exactly an anachronism.

[Charistoph]

I am aware, but the rules change didn't happen until after Total Warfare. So referring to BV isn't exactly an anachronism.

BV didn't come in to play till BMR.  It's predecessor was CV which arrived in the Tactical Handbook in 1994.

So, really, before then it was either mirror matches, tonnage, or "what felt right".  And that's where the Fireball was introduced.

[abou]

BV didn't come in to play till BMR.  It's predecessor was CV which arrived in the Tactical Handbook in 1994.

So, really, before then it was either mirror matches, tonnage, or "what felt right".  And that's where the Fireball was introduced.

My guy, not to go on for a tit-for-tat here, but I've been playing the game since 1995. I am well-aware of the history of CV, BV, BV2. My point isn't that the BV was released before the Fireball. My point was that the Fireball HAD some more utility when the streak-SRM 2 could use infernos and that its low BV played into that calculus. That becomes meta rather than in-universe reasoning, which I admitted in my post in addition to being mistaken about infantry. Simply because the Fireball debuted before the use of BV doesn't mean that it suddenly becomes unusable with the new system, which leaves 8 years of using BV and inferno-loaded Streak SRM-2s together.

[SCC]

What, that can't be right...

*looks in BMR*

Hunh... well what about...

*looks in BTC:RoW*

Well that's just dumb. The Fireball is terrible.

I suppose its one benefit was that it was cheap enough in BV that you could harass 'mechs with it. With infernos it could limit some designs with heat or use its speed to always move to the rear of an opponent. However, that is using it in a way it was not canonically designed for.

It gets worse, for a period of time after their introduction Elementals where actually IMMUNE to fir damage/Infernos.

[Giovanni Blasini]

It feels a lot like Pentagon Wars, but the debacle that was the Bradley wasn't well-known at that point. But yowza, the Magi is a waste of...well, everything.

I do kind of feel obligated to point out that the movie does kind of inflate the importance of Refomers like Burton, and deflate the competence of the Ballistic Research Laboratory.  I'm not saying the Bradley didn't have some developmental issues, but it's also true that Burton and the Reformers had some really wacky ideas...

I go with the head hunter mechs, like the Exterminator and the Spector.
Yes, they have stealth capabilities but then they lack the one-shot-kill capability if their target is in a mech.

Thank you.  I was surprised nobody mentioned the Exterminator sooner.  Really, any of the overengined designs probably qualify, like the Cicada.

[Hellraiser]

OR a LOT of small pulses, to tear into ba..

I'd rather not get into 3 hex range against BA. 
Less Range & Firepower means you'll be lucky put out 11 damage to kill 1 per turn (assuming you also got lucky enough to stack on the same trooper)
Ideally the Fireball would have been created a couple years later & used quad ERMLs.

[Hellraiser]

We know the story to the Magi,
................
Want to have some fun? Try building this 30 tons smaller. Don't change a thing other than the tonnage, and as a result the engine size. It's kinda hilarious actually.

The Magi, possibly the only design worse than the Charger & Dasher-II in terms of Over-Engine Syndrome.

[Starfury]

Oh if we're going  vehicles?

The Puma.  Lots of guns, heavy armor, ok movement.

The issue? You have a pair of LRM-20s mounted on the SIDES of your tank.  This means you're existing your weaker armor in order to fire one of them at a target, and you only have six rounds for each. Put them where they belong, in the turret.

[SCC]

The Magi, possibly the only design worse than the Charger & Dasher-II in terms of Over-Engine Syndrome.

No, the Magi at least has the sense to mount Medium Lasers

[Cannonshop]

No, the Magi at least has the sense to mount Medium Lasers

On a VEHICLE.

The Magi comes with LOTS of problems, chief among them being it's not useful for anything, including the alleged purpose for which it was designed.

It wasn't even usefulf or that purpose when TRO 2750 came out, either.

There are certain designs that are just...well...bad.

With Vehicles, you have the usual suspects.

With 'mechs, there are a number of designs that just don't make sense (too fragile for the tonnage while being slow, and having no range or light firepower) or whose initial look is "Wowza" until you use them and find out that eclectic weapons fit means it's a poor performer at EVERY range.

The game is served by having these 'dud designs'.

[BATTLEMASTER]

The Magi comes with LOTS of problems, chief among them being it's not useful for anything, including the alleged purpose for which it was designed.

I think we have a winner here!   

*Looks at thread title*

 

Jokes aside, I think the Magi for vehicles and the Fireball for 'mechs are about the worst for their intended role for anything.  Though I think the Magi would've been a good vehicle for the Age of War setting, though it uses all-modern components 

[Cannonshop]

I think we have a winner here!   

*Looks at thread title*

 

Jokes aside, I think the Magi for vehicles and the Fireball for 'mechs are about the worst for their intended role for anything.  Though I think the Magi would've been a good vehicle for the Age of War setting, though it uses all-modern components 

I'm not sure you could BUILD a Magi using primitive components.  maybe something to ask the lads in the design forums...

[Prospernia]

I know I said the, "Vulcan", but I take it back. the Vulcan is really good at terrorizing and oppressing civilians yearning to be free. With a good pilot that can stomp on people is icing on the cake.  Also, the Vulcan should have gunners as crew.

[Col Toda]

The Thanatos was a heavy calvary 5/8/5 with an ECM suite ment to survive disconnecting a C3 network.  So under armed it fails to justify ether BV or C bill cost . Always disappointing.

[SCC]

On a VEHICLE.

The Magi comes with LOTS of problems, chief among them being it's not useful for anything, including the alleged purpose for which it was designed.

It wasn't even usefulf or that purpose when TRO 2750 came out, either.

There are certain designs that are just...well...bad.

With Vehicles, you have the usual suspects.

With 'mechs, there are a number of designs that just don't make sense (too fragile for the tonnage while being slow, and having no range or light firepower) or whose initial look is "Wowza" until you use them and find out that eclectic weapons fit means it's a poor performer at EVERY range.

The game is served by having these 'dud designs'.

My point was that the other designs? They mount small lasers, so compared to them the Magi is, shall we say, less dumb.

[Minemech]

 Some items are added to the game for external flavor. The Magi is one of them and is quite exquisite at it (Rules and the need to stay on topic prevent further discussion on this one in particular). The Quickdraw is another, though it is very playable despite its flaws.

[monbvol]

With the Quickdraw though is the way it was designed makes it very poor at it's stated combat role.  This does not make it a bad/unusable mech.  It's just if you try and use it as a support/AA mech you'll have a bad time.

If you use it as a cavalry skirmisher? It works a lot better.

[Minemech]

With the Quickdraw though is the way it was designed makes it very poor at it's stated combat role.  This does not make it a bad/unusable mech.  It's just if you try and use it as a support/AA mech you'll have a bad time.

If you use it as a cavalry skirmisher? It works a lot better.

When I say flavor mech, I mean that it was meant to be a Quickdraw, could fire in any direction, and jump like a cowboy in the Wild West. It uses pistols (Medium Lasers) as its main guns over and against rifle users. Think of it in terms of western movies.

[glitterboy2098]

With the Quickdraw though is the way it was designed makes it very poor at it's stated combat role.  This does not make it a bad/unusable mech.  It's just if you try and use it as a support/AA mech you'll have a bad time.

If you use it as a cavalry skirmisher? It works a lot better.

who says it was ever created as a AA mech? it just says it was designed to replace the rifleman. which did both AA and direct frontline battle. the latter role being one the rifleman was very poor at, but had been forced into frequently. given that riflemen were in shorter supply at the time (per the fluff for the jagermech, which was designed around the same time) it makes sense that they'd develop a mainline combatant to replace riflemen on the frontlines and allow them to be moved rearwards into the AA duty they were meant for. the Davions, faced with a similar issue, chose to build the Jagermech to supplement and replace the Rifleman in the AA role instead.

[Prospernia]

The Rifleman, being an AA-mech, is a hold over from Macross.  In the sprite of Battletech, each mech is simply designed to fight other mechs.

[monbvol]

who says it was ever created as a AA mech? it just says it was designed to replace the rifleman. which did both AA and direct frontline battle. the latter role being one the rifleman was very poor at, but had been forced into frequently. given that riflemen were in shorter supply at the time (per the fluff for the jagermech, which was designed around the same time) it makes sense that they'd develop a mainline combatant to replace riflemen on the frontlines and allow them to be moved rearwards into the AA duty they were meant for. the Davions, faced with a similar issue, chose to build the Jagermech to supplement and replace the Rifleman in the AA role instead.

AA is still a role the Rifleman was meant to undertake but I did say support/AA.  If that is not clear enough to indicate that any AA role was supposed to be of a secondary concern at best for the Quickdraw, then I'll attempt to make that even clearer in the future.

Either way one LRM-10 is far inferior in terms of any kind of support to two AC-5s and two Large Lasers.

So no matter how you slice it the Quickdraw is a poor replacement for the Rifleman in any role the Rifleman performs.

But as I granted if you use it in different roles it's actually not a terrible mech.  Not great either.

[Charistoph]

who says it was ever created as a AA mech? it just says it was designed to replace the rifleman. which did both AA and direct frontline battle. the latter role being one the rifleman was very poor at, but had been forced into frequently. given that riflemen were in shorter supply at the time (per the fluff for the jagermech, which was designed around the same time) it makes sense that they'd develop a mainline combatant to replace riflemen on the frontlines and allow them to be moved rearwards into the AA duty they were meant for. the Davions, faced with a similar issue, chose to build the Jagermech to supplement and replace the Rifleman in the AA role instead.

That doesn't fly with the dates involved.  Nor was the Rifleman designed to be a frontline fighter.  Sure, there's the 3C, but even with that it still doesn't approach the role the Quickdraw plays at whatsoever.  Designed to cover and bodyguard the Rifleman, maybe, but not replace it.

If it was replacing the Grasshopper, Guillotine, or Exterminator, I could see it, but the Rifleman is just such a different duck of a Mech completely that the replacement theory just doesn't fly.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

My favorite example of "thoroughly bungled idea" is a WarShip: the Sovetskii Soyuz. The Soyuz was the product of a cruiser arms race touched off by the Lyrans introducing the Tharkad-class. The Star League spent 50 years looking at the Tharkad and asking themselves "how do we beat this?"

The answer was to design a Heavy Cruiser that was slower, more poorly armored, more lightly armed, had no point defenses, carried half the fighter compliment and had two fewer drop collars.

[monbvol]

My favorite example of "thoroughly bungled idea" is a WarShip: the Sovetskii Soyuz. The Soyuz was the product of a cruiser arms race touched off by the Lyrans introducing the Tharkad-class. The Star League spent 50 years looking at the Tharkad and asking themselves "how do we beat this?"

The answer was to design a Heavy Cruiser that was slower, more poorly armored, more lightly armed, had no point defenses, carried half the fighter compliment and had two fewer drop collars.

Some of that is due to rules changes without the designs themselves being properly re-done.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Some of that is due to rules changes without the designs themselves being properly re-done.

Yeah, that's more the result of rules and lore drift over the past 30+ years.  Though I'd also argue the Black Lion IIwas the counter to the Tharkad, coming out just a year later.  The Soyuz feels like a rush-built product, debuting in 2742, with 400 mass-produced before the end of the Star League.

[idea weenie]

How about the Hussar?

A 30-ton 10/15 Mech that carries an IS ERLL.

One and a half tons of armor.

At least it is cheap (less than 3 million C-Bills)

[ColBosch]

I will not tolerate any Hussar slander.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's not slander if it's true.

[Paul]

A 30-ton 10/15 Mech that carries an IS ERLL.

One and a half tons of armor.

Doesn't matter how much armor it has if it's never in range of anything to get shot at. I'm sure Hussar pilot training is about 44 hours/week learning what LRM launchers look like from 2km away. Need to know what model of Hunchback is over there? Hussar pilots can tell you, because the ones that can't are ded. DED.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That's great if they're only ever deployed on salt pans.

[ColBosch]

That's great if they're only ever deployed on salt pans.

This is the SLDF. They specialized. They had a 'Mech that was precision-engineered and thoroughly field-tested to die in cities. They had an IFV with a laser in every firing arc but no infantry bay. If there was a 2km stretch of open ground, then by Cameron they had a battalion of Hussars assigned to it.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

They're the same people who bought a stupidly expensive assault class scout mech, then realized it was a big, steaming pile of dog poo.  Not all their decisions were well-considered.

[Paul]

That's great if they're only ever deployed on salt pans.

They buy Mechs in bulk lots. Some modern countries buy less rifles for their infantry than they buy a single 'Mech model. So, yes, they would only deploy Hussars in terrain they're suited for 99% of the time, because they can.

But to your point: that's also why 'Mechs like the Wasp and Stinger are much more common.

[Kit deSummersville]

That's great if they're only ever deployed on salt pans.

There are plenty of places where visibility for a 12 meter tall robot of war is a kilometer or more. Especially from another 12 meter tall robot of war.

[ColBosch]

There are plenty of places where visibility for a 12 meter tall robot of war is a kilometer or more. Especially from another 12 meter tall robot of war.

*nods* The Hussar is meant to snipe by the company at enemies, then scatter at incredible speeds only to reform and snipe again. Not much can withstand hits from a dozen ERLLs at a time. It's not perfect, but I think it's a reasonable compromise.

And it's nowhere as ugly as the Yeoman.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Is there anything as ugly as a Yeoman?

[Hellraiser]

How about the Hussar?

A 30-ton 10/15 Mech that carries an IS ERLL.

One and a half tons of armor.

At least it is cheap (less than 3 million C-Bills)

1.  It's a 9/14 mech but who's counting right?
2.  How dare you sir!


3A:  Could the Hussar use Endo to double the armor, yes, sure.
3B:  Could the Hussar use an XL to triple the Armor & add Electronics  (Yes, its called the Royal Hussar)
3C:  As stated above, the ERLL allows it to dispatch Wasp/Stingers freely & moving 10+ Hexes means LRM mechs aren't hitting it in that 2 hex band where they can out-range it.

I will not tolerate any Hussar slander.

Well Said!

[JadeHellbringer]

Is there anything as ugly as a Yeoman?

A Penthiselea. Though both are surprisingly handy in a fight, actually.

[Ruger]

A Penthiselea. Though both are surprisingly handy in a fight, actually.

Part of me wants to make a really bad joke about hands and the Yeoman not exactly going together.

But let’s not and say we did.

Ruger

[Garagegamer]

Firestarter and Panthers. Initially they look good and are tough but there are mechs in their classes that can do better.