BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat

BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Articles => Topic started by: Scotty on 15 August 2013, 23:03:46

Title: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 15 August 2013, 23:03:46
(http://sarna.s3.amazonaws.com/media/images/games/mechcommander/loki_small.gif)

Hellbringer.  The oft-maligned lower-end Heavy OmniMech of the Clans.  Despite the reputation among its users and opponents for a variety of reasons, this fighting machine has persisted in the Inner Sphere from the start of Operation: REVIVAL clear through Grey Monday and into the continuing Dark Age.

The origins of the Hellbringer start with Clan Hell's Horses.  First developed in 2926 after the successful Trial for Tokasha Mechworks by Clan Ghost Bear, the Hellbringer was one of several stop gap Omni concepts to fill the flagging touman with cheap, effective, and powerful forces.  The Hellbringer was the most effective of these efforts, and the only successful one of the lot.  That should probably tell you something about how effective the others were.  Regardless of the short term effectiveness of this production, the Hell's Horses soon lost even this meager advantage, as the Hellbringer spread quickly through other Clans' toumans as well, sped largely by the loss of the production facility to other rival Clans and the distribution of the design as a ploy to curry favor to rescue the Hell's Horse's flagging position.

Encountered in at least token use by every Clan during the Invasion, the Hellbringer is found most commonly with Clan Jade Falcon, praised by Falcon warriors for its unbridled offensive potential.  As such, nearly all states that have engaged the Clans have seen the Hellbringer, though its official Inner Sphere codename “Loki” was given to it by one Federated Commonwealth officer that dubbed it “utterly mad” in all configurations.

Sharing similar visual qualities with both the Warhammer and Thunderbolt BattleMechs of the Inner Sphere, it's not difficult to see the inspirations for the Hellbringer's appearance.  A 325 rated Extra Light Fusion Engine propels the 65 ton Hellbringer to running speeds of up to 86 km/hr, which is about as fast as can be efficiently done even with XL engines.  Cast using many of the same molds as the Summoner, with whom it shares a lack of Endo-Steel components, the Hellbringer has a hunched appearance, with short arms hanging to the 'Mech's sides and thick, blocky angles throughout.  It looks like a trooper, despite performance to the contrary.

That performance to the contrary is courtesy of the Hellbringer's armor.  A mere eight tons of Forging Omni H-24 standard armor make for pitiful protection, covering barely more than 60% of the design's maximum capacity.  Though, at the very least what's there is arranged as intelligently as it can be, given the shortcomings.  The Head is armored to standard, capable of stopping any number of the most common mid-range weapons, such as AC-10s of various flavors, Inner Sphere PPCs, and Clan ER and Pulse Large Lasers from simply removing the head, though damage inflicted by one of those weapons will still threaten the pilot, especially if a hit has already landed.  Interestingly, the Rear Torsos of the Hellbringer are armored almost as heavily as the head, with the Center able to handle an Inner Sphere Large Laser or Light Gauss with impunity, while the sides can take one direct hit from a Clan spec Medium Laser.  That sort of armor is valuable on a machine where armor is otherwise lacking.  Each Leg is armored to take one Gauss Rifle slug or Clan ER PPC strike, but will be left completely without armor afterward.  Much like the Inner Sphere laughingstock the JagerMech, the Hellbringer actually in some cases has thicker internal structure than it does armor.  The legs are very close to achieving this dubious distinction, capable of taking exactly one more similar hit before being destroyed.    The Hellbringer's arms are even less acceptably armored, barely capable of stopping the ER and Pulse lasers mentioned above without breaching, though there technically is still some tattered remnants of armor on the limbs if they take a hit like that.  Gauss and PPC fire, however, will shred it and then some, bleeding damage into the structure on the first hit.  Finally, the side and Center Torsos aren't much better.  The legs are actually armored somewhat better than the side torsos, and a Gauss slug will punch right through and start dealing damage immediately.  The Center Torso, on the other hand, can at least eat an additional SRM before breaching.  Spectacular.

The saving grace of the Hellbringer is the relatively massive warload it brings to the table.  For the time, its 28.5 tons of podspace were absolutely unheard of for anything smaller than 80 tons, including the vaunted Timber Wolf.  Three fixed heatsinks hidden in the engine accompany the base ten, for a base chassis dissipation of thirteen double heatsinks.  Aside from the bulky XL Engine, the entire 'Mech is bare of critical components, leaving more room to work with than any other Clan Frontline Omni of the original Invasion.  That's right, not a single Clan Omni from 3050 has more space to put all the juicy weapons and equipment a pilot could want.  Many of the standard configurations squander this bountiful space, but used correctly the 'Mech is still capable of putting out tremendous punishment.

The Primary configuration of the Hellbringer takes a little bit of everything to the field.  Twin ER PPCs, one in each arm, provide long range hitting power and fire support, if necessary, all the way out to 690 meters.  Three ER Medium Lasers in the Left Torso complement a Streak SRM-6 system in the Right Torso, both of which addsadditional punch to 450 and 360 meters respectively and an opportunity to exploit holes previously punched by the PPCs.  Finally, two Machine Guns in the Right Torso provide anti-infantry protection at short range, only to about 90 meters or so.  A Targeting Computer nestled in the Left Torso alongside the lasers provides pinpoint accuracy.  The other equipment in the Prime is what makes it so odd, though.  An Active Probe and a decidedly un-Clanlike ECM Suite are also included in the spacious Left Torso, while an AMS system inhabits the head, with the singular ton of ammunition in the Center Torso.  Not the best place for ammo, but with this little armor, it's not going to be much of a problem in most cases.  The rest of the ammo for the Streaks and MGs are shoved into the Right Torso, for a total of two and a half tons of ammunition on this configuration.  That's not even the last of it!  No, the configuration is rounded out by a quartet of A-Pods in the legs, two each.  With the Machine Guns already on the machine, and the general lack of usefulness for A-Pods in general, this design choice puts serious question on who was driving the think tank on this one, especially since the Hellbringer Prime overheats heavily on a running alpha, literally double the heat dissipation capacity of the 'Mech, though there's something to be said about the nicely arranged brackets.  At least, nicely arranged by ranges.  Firing both primary weapons on a run will still put the Prime into an overheat that slows it perceptibly.

Configuration A is slightly more sensible.  Instead of the baffling array of secondary equipment that doesn't contribute much in duels or against other 'Mech opponents, this version of the Hellbringer mounts paired ER Large lasers in the Left Arm, accurate out to 750 meters, and an Ultra AC/5 with two tons of ammunition in the Right that can begin to support the lasers as early as 630 meters out.  Following up on the long range hole punching is an LRM-20 system with a criminally low sixty seconds worth of ammunition in the Right Torso.  An ER Medium Laser in the Head can add to the fire as soon as it comes in range.  An odd choice, a Narc Launcher occupies a place in the Left Torso, adjacent to an Active Probe held over from the Prime.  The Narc Launcher is of... questionable utility within the confines of Zellbrigen, but if a pilot is desperate to get utility out of it, he or she can use it to make their own LRM fire more accurate, though with a range of 360 meters, closing to that range before opening up with one of the most powerful parts of the 'Mech is a decided risk.  Annoyingly, the Narc and the LRM have the same amount of ammunition from an endurance point of view.  The Machine Guns in the Right Torso from the Prime have also made an encore appearance, and have been “upgraded” to a full ton of ammunition, nestled in the Center Torso, taking the place of the now absent AMS ammo.  One step forward, two steps back.  The heat load on this configuration is slightly more taxing at range with a salvo of the long range weapons at a run generating enough heat to affect targeting performance, but also more lenient on an alpha, which “only” generates enough heat to flirt with ammunition detonation.

The third of the Hellbringer's common configurations, configuration B is the first that doesn't suffer from crippling heat issues.  However, it suffers from crippling ammo issues, appropriately enough.  A Gauss Rifle in the Right Arm reaches out and touches people out to 660 hexes with a slight difficulty with short range opponents.  In the opposite arm, an LB-5X exploits holes punched by the gauss weapon, and also offers superb anti-aircraft capability.  The crippling ammunition issues rear their ugly heads with only a single ton for each weapon, in the same location.  For the autocannon, twenty shots is enough to get through a fight, though having only one choice between cluster or slug limits its overall utility.  For the gauss rifle, one ton is criminally under supplied, lasting less than a minute and a half of constant fire.  Two SRM-6s with Artemis IV FCS in the Right Torso provide superb close-in firepower capable of damaging exposed components.  Artemis only saves a half ton versus upgrading to Streak systems, and loses fully 25% range, only reaching out to 270 meters.  Two tons of ammunition supply the launchers, both placed in the same torso.  Given the ammunition efficiency and improved range of Streak systems, it's a mystery to me why the designer didn't simply consolidate and drop to one ton of ammunition.  A similar 'quick fix' for the configuration is to drop one ton of SRM ammunition for an additional ton of gauss, since the gauss will be in range significantly more often than the relatively short-legged missiles.  Finally, an ER Small Laser in the Left Torso provides last ditch defensive potential out to 180 meters.  Total heat buildup for this configuration is barely 50% of the overall heat dissipation of the 'Mech, meaning that the Hellbringer B can literally bathe in inferno gel or plasma fire and only make the pilot sweat.

Next on the list, the Hellbringer C initially debuted in 3054, several years after the Invasion, and trades a punishing long range focus for equally painful short range power.  The centerpiece of the 'Mech is a massive LB-20X Autocannon in the Right Torso, fed by three tons of ammunition distributed where space allows between the side torsos.  Two ER Medium Lasers in the Left Torso exploit holes punched by the main gun.  On the Left Arm, an ER Large Laser provides a hefty and accurate long range punch while two underslung ER Smalls add damage at close range.  In the Right Arm, all around versatility is brought around by an ATM-6 launcher, with three tons of ammo in the same arm.  This config is well versed at all ranges, with the ER Large and ATM providing an accurate if not especially powerful reach, adding the ER Mediums and the ATM's standard munitions when the ranges close and more damage is required.  Finally, at close range, the LBX opens up and the ATM switches to HE missiles, which provide unparalleled damage at knife-fight ranges.  The Small Lasers aren't often going to be in range even so, but offer a low-heat solid punch when targets are within 180 meters.  Total heat capacity isn't up to a running alpha, but with a variety of weapons to provide good flexibility and damage at all ranges with a focus on short range pain, the base heat sinks are fairly good.  At long range, a running alpha doesn't even raise a blip on the display, and the mid-range battery doesn't do much more than make the pilot sweat.  Close range, managing the offensive potential of the C is a bit more complex, but firing the LBX, ATM, and ER Mediums offers a net cool down after a few salvos including the Large.  If the pilot is desperate, a running alpha at close range will flirt with ammunition explosion but not quite reach it with a small buffer between the 'Mech and disaster.

Configuration D is probably the most hilarious of the standard configurations.  The primary weapons on the 'Mech are a quartet of Plasma Cannons split two in each arm, which are the source of the hilarity.  Clan plasma weapons don't actually do damage to enemy 'Mechs, instead dealing a good amount of heat to units that track it.  Against non-'Mech units, Plasma Cannons are murderous things, dealing damage that's on average similar to an ER Large, though across a greater swath of the target's surface, and at a cost of only three tons per system.  Additionally, Plasma Cannons do not suffer when targeting close enemies, and reach out to 540 meters without difficulty, though as their downside must be supplied with ammunition.  On this configuration, one ton of ammo per cannon is divided up the same way as the cannons themselves.  Backing up the cannons are an array of four Medium Pulse Lasers, arranged two per side torso that can very accurately strike targets to 360 meters.  A Micro Pulse Laser in the Head offers token damage to the pile at 90 meters and less.  Finally, four B-Pods, two to each leg, work to fight off enemy battlesuits that may get too close for comfort.  Combined with the devastating anti-battlearmor power of the plasma cannons and the superb accuracy of the medium pulse lasers, the B-Pods are perhaps a little superfluous, and the four tons tied up in their use could have been much better spent on heatsinks.  Firing all four plasma weapons at a run will have the 'Mech build just enough heat to avoid penalties.  Against 'Mechs, and when trying to maximize accuracy, the pulse lasers can be swapped out two-for-one without crippling heat issues, though be aware that it might be necessary to cool off every few turns.  To avoid being forced to cool off, three pulse lasers and two cannons can be fired indefinitely while stationary, and at a run a pulse laser need be dropped for only a short period every thirty seconds or so.  If absolutely necessary, a running alpha strike will slow the 'Mech by nearly 40% and make acquiring targets more difficult, but not impossibly so.  (Editor's Note: There is a duel between the Hellbringer D and another Clan 'Mech, which I believe to be a Mad Dog, in which the Hellbringer pilot forced the Mad Dog to the point of shut down with repeated salvos of the main cannons.  For the life of me, I am unable to find any evidence of that showdown ever happening or having a place in the fluff, but I'm certain it exists.)

The next configuration is the only common Hellbringer configuration to mount jump jets.  The E is also one of only two Hellbringers to not waste unfortunate amounts of tonnage on superfluous A- and B-Pods, sharing that distinction with the F.  Apparently, it took until 3069 to achieve that feat.  The five tons taken up by jump jets leaves 23.5 tons of equipment to play with, and the designers of the E decided on long range fire-support, though being Clan, short range power is still present due to the general lack of minimum range on Clan weapons.  The centerpiece of this version is a HAG-20, mounted in the Left Arm and provided with two tons of ammunition.  That amount of ammo is perhaps a bit low on the modern battlefield, but for a duel it handles things nicely with two full minutes of fire available at the pilot's fingertips.  Occupying the Right Arm are a pair of ER Large Lasers.  The HAG has a 30 meter shorter range than the lasers, but all three will be able to engage targets to an impressive distance, and with equally impressive power.  At 630 meters, an LRM-10 with a single ton of ammunition in the Right Torso can enter the fray and provide additional hits.  No other weapons or equipment grace the design.  Total damage output for the E is lower than most other Hellbringers, but the concentration on long range firepower and maneuverability to the exclusion of all else means that this particular Hellbringer will probably survive longer than most.  The heat load of the E is fairly simple to juggle.  Firing both ER Larges and the HAG at a run will not quite generate enough heat to make movement difficult.  Firing one ER Large, the HAG, and the LRM the next turn, also at a run, will drop the heat back down to neutral.  A running alpha will leave both the speed and targeting degraded, while a jumping alpha will degrade the ground based movement further.

The only other Hellbringer not to waste tonnage on other equipment, the Hellbringer F was introduced at the same time as the C.  Sporting a pair of LB-10X Autocannons, one to an arm, the F certainly gets off to a good start for all around versatility.  Only two tons of ammo makes it a little short for a full engagement, but once again, duels are golden.  Four ER Medium Lasers, one in each arm and side torso, deliver solid mid-range punch.  The last bit of armament is a standard SRM-6 in the Right Torso fed by one ton of ammunition.  Aside from the lack of a dedicated long range punch, this is probably the most balanced of the common Hellbringer configurations.  It is also one of the coolest running, with a running alpha not even slowing it down.  (Editor's Note: This config comes courtesy of a canonization of the MechWarrior 4 appearance of the Hellbringer.)

One more common Hellbringer configuration exists, the H, featuring the obligatory Heavy Laser boat.  Unveiled in 3059, this version dishes out the most raw damage, but also overheats more than any other Hellbringer, a feat in and of itself.  An ER PPC in the Right Arm provides the main long range punch, with an Ultra AC/5 in the Right Torso and an LRM-15 in the Left Torso.  Each of the ammunition using weapons comes with two tons in the same location.  Fortunately, all of those weapons can be fired at a run with no heat buildup.  Unfortunately, the designers were being a bit more ambitious with this one.  A Heavy Large Laser sits in the Left Arm, and four Heavy Small Lasers pad the Left Torso.  Because Heavy Lasers have the same ranges as their Inner Sphere, non-heavy counterparts and suffer an intrinsic inaccuracy, their utility is somewhat limited.  However, if the pilot ever finds him or herself less than 90 meters from a target, the barrage of coherent light stands a fair chance of melting the opponent.  Unfortunately, firing all of those lasers, alone, at a standstill, will almost put the Hellbringer into heat-inflicted deficiency.  Put together, a Hellbringer H is fully capable of forcing itself into an unavoidable shutdown with a running alpha strike.

Notable Hellbringer pilots are few and far between, with only three apparent.  The first (and least known) of the three is one Star Captain Phadorah of Clan Hell's Horses, who gained minor fame after defeating two opponents simultaneously, including a Horse-turned-Wolf Star Colonel, who was 'reclaimed' for the Horses.

The next notable Hellbringer pilot is notable for being a notable pilot of the Omni without direct affiliation with a Clan.  Brian Cameron of the Wolf's Dragoons piloted a Hellbringer for much of his career as Jaime Wolf's communications officer and aide-de-camp, at one point even taking command of the surviving portion of the unit on Outreach after the legendary mercenary's death.

The last and most famous of the notable Hellbringer pilots, Star Captain Joanna, is the MechWarrior that killed Natasha Kerensky in single combat.  Though she did not pilot a Hellbringer for the duel, much of her career was spent in the Omni, including the battle of Tukayyid.  Joanna is also notable for being the only well-known Hellbringer pilot to be of Clan Jade Falcon, who are known to be prolific users of the design.

Using a Hellbringer is the same for most configurations, excepting possibly the E and F.  Get in close, use cover and your speed to keep the hit numbers as high as it's possible to keep them at that range, and unload buckets of pain into your opponents' faces.  Don't expect Hellbringers to live very long, regardless of what else you bring, so get your use out of them as quickly as possible.  Just about the only thing that will keep a Hellbringer alive is a slower, more dangerous unit on your side that can soak the punishment, and those are few and far between when considering just how much damage a Hellbringer is capable of putting out, and how high the risk-reward is for taking one out early.  For the E and F, stay at medium or long range, and use the superior ranged firepower to whittle down enemies while your ammo lasts.  For something like the D, plasma cannons play merry hell with everything, but most particularly conventional assets like infantry and vehicles, where they inflict good damage for low tonnage to damn near everything.  3D6 damage split into 5 point clusters averages two full clusters and a point left over, with potential spikes all the way up to three full clusters and one three point hit, so they're perfect for roasting battle armor and infantry that get in your way.

Fighting a Hellbringer is almost painfully simple.  Point and click.  The armor is really pathetic, no matter how you slice it, so any concentrated fire will bring one down fast.  Unfortunately, it's Clan, so anything taking it down will suffer for it.  Most configurations are high on power at all ranges, but overheat easily, so bringing along heat generating weapons can help, and a few big hole punchers will start taking out important things.  Keep in mind, though, that with the glut of weapons on a normal Hellbringer, taking out the big guns just gives your opponent more options to use other big guns without worrying about heat anymore.  Mixed blessing.  Hit it hard and put it down fast to avoid taking more damage than most Assaults can put out on short notice.

Availability and other information can be found on the Master Unit List (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1929/loki-hellbringer-prime), and additional pictures can be found on CamoSpecs (http://www.camospecs.com/MiniList.asp?Action=Detail&ID=801).
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Col.Hengist on 16 August 2013, 00:07:18
 fun mech. I like using them in trials or as a command mech for a recon force.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: E. Icaza on 16 August 2013, 01:00:11
One of my favorite 'Mechs and it rarely fails to take down 2 or 3 times its weight, despite the complaints about how fragile it is.  The Prime and the Alpha configuration are probably my favorites, although I agree that the Narc is probably space that could better be set aside for an AMS and/or more LRM ammo.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SCC on 16 August 2013, 02:52:07
Does it ever actually use all the free crit space?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: marauder648 on 16 August 2013, 05:30:26
Always liked fighting these things when me and my friends played our clan invasion battles.  It was distressingly easy to disable.  Fighting on a forest map I took one down much to my supprise in a pointblank brawl with a FLS-8K Flashman, sure the Flasher was battered but still came out on top. To be headcapped by a Gargoyle A the next turn..

Great review though!
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 16 August 2013, 13:37:33
I'm with E. in preferring the Primary and Alpha configs. We know the Loki lacks armor, so if we want to get any use out of it, we gotta minimize that weakness by making it as hard to hit as possible. 5/8 speed does give us a good movement modifier, and the Prime's ECM will certainly see a lot of Ghost Targets use now that the rules got streamlined, but for any Loki, it's real defense is the same one relied upon by every air-to-ground unit in existence - range. You stay at long range, and use that modifier to bring moderate to-hit numbers up to the realm of crazy-difficult, and possibly impossible. You shoot at that range, and accept that your numbers won't be much better. If you've got 10s to-hit and the other guy has 11s or 12s and neither of you connects that round, you've done your job right.

A duel with a Loki should take a LONG time, slowly wearing down the enemy in such a way that it will take him even longer to wear you down. The Prime is probably best for this, since the TarComp goes a long way towards making your numbers better than his. A well-piloted Loki Prime should be a terror to face, elusive and near-impossible to hit, and occasionally rebutting with those hammers the Clans call PPCs. The A works in a similar fashion, but sacrifices the accuracy of the Prime for a larger number of to-hit rolls, meaning more chances to get lucky.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: chanman on 16 August 2013, 20:22:01
Does it ever actually use all the free crit space?

I maintain that from a player standpoint, the Hellbringer's only asset over other fast Clan heavies is its uniquely large amount of available critical spaces. Therefore, the truly creative Hellbringer user will design configurations that emphasize bulky, lightweight weapons that would not fit on a Timber Wolf, Mad Dog or one of the newer Clan heavies. (The Summoner has noticeably less podspace available, so it's not counted here).

Artillery is one choice, but I'd like to mention that mass banks of light machine guns and/or LB-20x autocannon work surprisingly effectively*.

As for why the Clans prefer it, my guess is that Hellbringer duels tend to end faster with (relatively) less overall material destruction - no exotic chassis or armour materials, and with the thin armour, XL engines, and ammunition, more easily repaired engine knock-outs and/or CASE-protected side chassis destruction tend to dominate trial damage for Hellbringers, as opposed to more zombie-like mechs that require a pilot kill or the utter reduction of the machine to sparkly dust to end a trial.

*5 Jump Jets, 28 LMGs with 2.5 tons ammo, 1 ERML, 1 LB-20x with 2 tons ammo. Use in star-strength without Zell
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Wolverine on 01 September 2013, 23:46:19
I just ran the B version in a recent battle with 3052 IS forces, 1st turn took a GR to the torso, plus a few LRM's and a ammo critted, it was a lame target for 2 more turns before it got put out of its misery, what a waste of clan technology.
The Madcat I also ran lasted til the end of the battle, as did the Vulture.
Loki = mad indeed

J
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Diablo48 on 02 September 2013, 00:43:30
There is a reason I relegate all my Hellbringers to artillery duty.  They are just too fragile to stand up to the kind of punishment they attract so I give mine an Arrow IV tube and a full set of Jump Jets whenever possible so they can fight from far enough away to make their pitiful armor a non-issue, especially if I use the jets to get creative with positioning.

Beyond that, I really wish this thing had had used advanced construction to mount decent armor and used MASC to differentiate it from the other heavy omnis without crippling it in the process, but at least it is not popular among the Bears so I do not have to use this mess very often.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Nightsong on 02 September 2013, 15:18:21
Endo-Steel to free up 3 extra tons of armor would have made this just about perfect, honestly, and it wouldn't take up all that much space. But your best bets as said repeatedly above are ER PPCs and ER Larges. Or maybe the HAGs now, you could get away with a 40, a nice chunk of ammo and backed up with one or two of the big ER beams. Could get 12 shots with 2 ER Larges, or 18 shots with an ER PPC. Guess it depends on whether you want to give up the ammo for better backup punch.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 02 September 2013, 16:21:10
Endo-Steel to free up 3 extra tons of armor would have made this just about perfect, honestly, and it wouldn't take up all that much space.

Anyone can redesign the Hellbringer's base chassis.  Real men work only with the pod loadout.  ;)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 02 September 2013, 16:50:38
I've said it before, I'll say it again.  The Hellbringer is not a durable 'Mech.  It's not meant to be, either.  It's designed to pick fights and finish them in the same minute, and if it happens to win to pick another one and finish it even quicker.  This 'Mech is Clan dueling ideology distilled into something breathtakingly simple (both from a metagame and in-universe perspective) whose sole purpose is the focused application of molten pain on a single target.  Survival not required or necessarily desired.

There's a reason this is a Falcon favorite, and it's because it epitomizes the Clan pursuit of maximum pain in the minimum amount of time.  28.5 tons outstrips the Timber Wolf for sheer payload, and when it comes right down to it, what you can do with that payload is nothing short of a warcrime on a frame this size.  It's successor, the Hellbringer II, takes it even further by slowing it down and piling on more podspace, but the basic idea is the same: Kill things dead fast.

At the end of it all, the Hellbringer can mount literally any weapon in the Clan arsenal, in any location, and have the space and tonnage left over for more.  HAG-40?  No problem.  Four ER PPCs?  Have fun with the heat, but it's still possible.  Want to out-Nova the Nova?  Twenty ER Medium Lasers and more heatsinks.

The Hellbringer, more than any other Omni in the entire Clan combined toumans, with the possible exception of the Dire Wolf during the invasion, and some of the larger assault omnis in the modern game, offers carte blanche to ****** shit up with anything and everything you want to.  Go nuts.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: cold1 on 03 September 2013, 09:56:36
"What Scotty said..."

Pretty much sums it up for me.  It's designed to overwhelm a single opponent immediately.  If it fails at that then it probably dies.  It's why it was such a great Jaguar mech, fit their style to the T.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: BATTLEMASTER on 04 September 2013, 22:04:30
I love this 'mech (so much that I even designed a Lego model for it, see my avatar? :D).  Yeah, I have designed Hellbringer chassis that make use of Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fibrous to make it more durable, but there's something I like about a Clan glass cannon.

I love the way the 'mech looks, and I love the way it screams "KILL IT FAST!!!" because its armor won't last long at all.

I do enjoy creating custom configurations with the 'mech, and I've made a lot of them.

However, I feel that the Mad Dog, sharing the same movement profile as the Hellbringer, and having 28 tons of pod space for more armor and one less double heatsink, is a more efficient design, despite not having as many free critical slots due to the Ferro-Fibrous.  It's also 5 tons lighter.

I love both 'mechs though, their pod space, and, of course, their looks, and I frequently use them together in my stars.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: master arminas on 04 September 2013, 23:51:10
Nice article, reminds me of my own on the Hellbringer (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,19608.0.html).

 O0

MA
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: nerd on 05 September 2013, 21:56:25
It was either Victor Steiner-Davion or Galen Cox who gave the Loki reporting name on Trellwan in 3050.

And yes, from the "Live fast, die young, leave a great legacy" POV, the design makes a bit more sense.

Still, I'd rather have a trusty old Thunderbolt.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Wolverine on 05 September 2013, 22:27:04
so I read the excellent article by  master arminas
and that plus the live fast die young clan philosophy sort of helps the Loki make sense, even so the canon versions are pretty laughable and I won't use one or inflict one in any BT games I run unless a player doesn't have much to complain about.
J
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Alex Keller on 11 September 2013, 13:43:50
The Hellbringer is so useful in Alpha Strike rules. Makes me appreciate why the Falcons used it so frequently.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: BATTLEMASTER on 12 September 2013, 10:51:43
The Hellbringer is so useful in Alpha Strike rules. Makes me appreciate why the Falcons used it so frequently.

Please elaborate.  I'm not too familiar with the new rules set.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 12 September 2013, 10:54:58
Please elaborate.  I'm not too familiar with the new rules set.

Good speed, several congfigs with massive long-range damage...it's still fragile, but a well-driven Loki will pound you to pieces before you can close to medium range.

Of course, if you do survive to get that close, you'll be the one doing the pounding...live fast, die funny. 8)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: BATTLEMASTER on 12 September 2013, 12:11:20
I try to do that on tabletop anyway, but for some reason I somewhat enjoy close-range configurations that are designed to hit so hard that your armor will actually hold up, 'cause there won't be much of the other guy left :)  But that's with custom pod configurations anyway.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 12 September 2013, 14:31:10
I try to do that on tabletop anyway, but for some reason I somewhat enjoy close-range configurations that are designed to hit so hard that your armor will actually hold up, 'cause there won't be much of the other guy left :)  But that's with custom pod configurations anyway.

This is pretty much how I look at the Hellbringer.  The armor is so low because if you need it you're doing things wrong.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 13 September 2013, 03:23:56
So the correct podloadout should always include a supercharger?
I mean, how high is the chance you burn the engine before the armour gives?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 13 September 2013, 05:33:38
That's certainly a valid way to look at it.  I don't usually add them to my own configurations simply because I stick to Tournament Legal a good 60% of the time, and forget those exist the rest.

Generally speaking, a Hellbringer load designed to maximize the design's potential needs to be carrying at least one, preferably two, large energy weapons like PPCs or ER Large Lasers, a large ballistic weapon such as Gauss or some brand of AC-20 (Ultra works perfect), and then a battery of smaller energy weapons for the last 4-8 tons.  If you're adding more heatsinks, be very careful about it.  Never, ever be afraid to overheat if it means your enemy gets crippled.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: iampoch on 13 September 2013, 05:41:14
That's certainly a valid way to look at it.  I don't usually add them to my own configurations simply because I stick to Tournament Legacy a good 60% of the time, and forget those exist the rest.

Generally speaking, a Hellbringer load designed to maximize the design's potential needs to be carrying at least one, preferably two, large energy weapons like PPCs or ER Large Lasers, a large ballistic weapon such as Gauss or some brand of AC-20 (Ultra works perfect), and then a battery of smaller energy weapons for the last 4-8 tons.  If you're adding more heatsinks, be very careful about it.  Never, ever be afraid to overheat if it means your enemy gets crippled.

The Hellbringer C! My favorite configuration of the mech! :-)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Trajan Helmer on 13 September 2013, 12:28:52
Most of the time I use my Hellbringers to snipe at long range, keeping my opponent honest. Hellbringers have enough speed to close distance fast to bring that universe of hurt. In a large scale battle, they excel at worrying your enemy. Often enough, they're ignored while more dangerous 'Mechs get the attention they deserve. While your opponent pounds on the better designs, rushing the Hellbringer forward to finish them off is a terrifying tactic to some. The armor is rarely needed at that point. It's secured plenty of victories, too.

Occasionally, they're used as bodyguard units. That much podspace and speed can cut short many a raider's career.

The Hellbringer C! My favorite configuration of the mech! :-)
O0
I've grown very fond of the E Configuration myself. That thing can be murder in a long-to-midrange game.

Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 13 September 2013, 12:43:23
Heavy Lasers coupled with HAGs on the same config are absolutely murderous.  You've got a decent long range punch with that HAG (not great, but decent, and keeps VTOLs honest), and the HLLs (or iHLLs for a bonus) bring the pain up close.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Trajan Helmer on 13 September 2013, 17:35:48
Actually, the E has two ER Large Lasers coupled with a HAG 20 and an LRM10.  What surprised me about the config (I first played it blind at GenCon last year) was its jumping capability. I was halfway through the Masters & Minions Tourney before I saw I had jjs.

I agree with you, though. A config matching iHLLs and a HAG 20 would be sweet. Throw on a ERLL for extra range. And some heat sinks.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 13 September 2013, 17:40:17
You can fit a HAG-30 (3 tons ammo), ER PPC, iHLL, two ER ML, and a Flamer on a Hellbringer with no additional heatsinks at all and have a nearly perfect bracket fighter.  A little hot short, a little cool long, but deadly at all ranges.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Trajan Helmer on 13 September 2013, 18:55:03
That's not even fair for the enemy. I'm in. Excellent article, by the way.  I can't get enough of the Hellbringer nowadays.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Hellraiser on 21 September 2013, 00:08:03
Never a huge fan, I make use of it when its all I have.

Prime = Command Mech
E = Favorite new config.
Custom = 2x Arrow + 20 rounds + Flamer
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: iamfanboy on 01 October 2013, 14:24:02
I hate to crap all over the Hellbringer love parade, but c'mon folks, it's one of the worst designs to come out of TRO 3050 - not just the Clan section, but the whole thing.

A year ago, I made this post:

Quote from: iamfanboy
Comparing the Mad Dog to the Hellbringer is like comparing apples to broccoli: sure, people TELL you that one is good for you, but one of them is good for you AND tastes good!

The Mad Dog has 35 more points of armor, loses out on 6 crit spaces for podding, has one less heat sink, and carries exactly one-HALF ton less of pod space. For my money, that beats the Hellbringer any day.

Of course, none of this beats the real bear in the room, the Stormcrow. 60 more armor points than the Hellbringer, faster, excellent canon loadouts, etc, etc. Or the Timber Wolf.

I mean, the Hellbringer is just bad when compared to so many other 'Mechs in the Clan lineup, even the initial invasion. I had a friend that used to call them "Poppers" because they were so easy to kill, and if we as GMs were setting up Clanner opposition for a GM group, we'd usually include a Hellbringer in the Star just to give them a near-free kill.

Sadly, Battleforce has done nothing to dispel my theory that the Stormcrow is a much better 'Mech than the Hellbringer. The Stormcrow-Prime costs 21 points, Damage 5/5/2, A/S of 6/3, and a Mv of 6 versus the Hellbringer-Prime's stats of 27,  D 4/4/2 w/ OV 3, A/S 4/4, and Mv 5. The higher armor means more hits before getting to the creamy center of the Stormcrow, the faster speed means being able to dictate range better, and those six points can pay for an Elemental point to hitch on the Stormcrow.

Even comparing best/best variants, the Stormcrow-E versus Hellbringer-A, the Hellbringer comes up remarkably short. Mv6, A/S 6/3, Damage 7/6/2 (!!) w/ OV 2, PRB and RCN, and a cost of only 21 points makes the E-variant a clear winner over the pathetic Hellbringer at MV5, A/S 4/4, Damage 4/4/3 w/ OV 1, and its one miserable advantage of 19 points.

(frankly, doing this comparison does more to cement my theory that BF/Alpha Strike point cost should be calculated based on the aggregate of the unit's stats, but that's another discussion.)

When someone quoted my post in-character and called me "A cowardly Inner Sphere surat," my in-character response was:

Quote from: Fanboy Tseng
Spoken like a Warrior without a Bloodname over 30 - seeking to go out in a blaze of glory, hoping to get into the Remembrance because he managed to do the impossible: last longer than twenty seconds in a Hellbringer.

However, those of us WITH Bloodnames, who have an entire Cluster or Galaxy to worry about, need to look at the bigger picture, and an OmniMech that becomes mission crippled within the first half-minute of combat is a OmniMech that is not suitable to anything but suicide missions for dezgra warriors.

Yet any attempts to use this machine and its podspace for something it CAN do well with minimal risk to its thin skin (such as fire support with Arrow IV or a substantial numbers of LRMs) meets opposition from warriors who seek the aforementioned blaze of glory.

So therefore we agree that you would make an excellent pilot for any of the standard Hellbringer configurations. However, I do not like wasting materiel simply to satisfy the glory-needs of a desperate warrior, so I would immediately trade any Hellbringers in my Cluster to a less far-seeing Star Colonel.

I compare that to the Mad Dog, which at least compensates for its slightly lower armor than other line units by having longer-range configurations well suited for fencing at range until closing to finish off opponents with its lasers.

Frankly, if I have underbid on Elementals, I would prefer not to rely upon an uncertain, single-use weapon such as B-Pods to combat my opponent's deployment of opposing battle armor. Fortunately my warriors are well-experienced in the use of pulse lasers, and I have authorised the addition of hand actuators to at least two Omnimechs in each Star in case Inner Sphere surats ambush an ill-equipped unit with their battle armor.

-Star Colonel Fanboy Tseng, Ghost Bears Beta Galaxy, 12th Bear Chevaliers (CO).
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Wildonion on 01 October 2013, 20:02:36
I always like the Hellbringer because the first book that featured the 'Mech (The first that I read, mind you.) had it in a support role. I am going off of an older memory here, but I believe it was used to manage the comm channels for a regiment of Wolf's Dragoons, which seemed to make a lot of sense. Great electronics, ER PPCs to threaten enemies from afar, and enough armor to survive a spattering of return fire while you do your job. That most of the variants carry a healthy amount of weapons for long range fighting only helps to further overcome the weakness of lackluster armor. Had the design devoted a few more tons to ammo, rather than the damnable NARC launcher, the A variant would have been wonderful for mitigating the armor risk with a bevy of long distance weapons.

Similar to many of the other designs which existed in this era of the game, both Clan and Inner Sphere, the Hellbringer doesn't make the best use of tonnage. It really is just an overgrown medium. It looks like a Warhammer and fights like a Rifleman, using that tonnage for barely enough heat sinks to use the main laser array and eschewing armor, so play it ferocious and ride the heat wave. Seems to work for Star Captain Mara, if nothing else.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 01 October 2013, 20:07:23
I hate to crap all over the Hellbringer love parade, but c'mon folks, it's one of the worst designs to come out of TRO 3050 - not just the Clan section, but the whole thing.

I don't think I understand.  The Hellbringer is by far a suboptimal chassis (worse than the lemons on the IS half of 3050, though?  Not a chance).  That's also the draw of it.  At least, that's what keeps me coming back time and again, and the same with its descendant.  Of course there are ways to do it better.  That's entirely not the point.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: iamfanboy on 02 October 2013, 02:17:42
I don't think I understand.  The Hellbringer is by far a suboptimal chassis (worse than the lemons on the IS half of 3050, though?  Not a chance).  That's also the draw of it.  At least, that's what keeps me coming back time and again, and the same with its descendant.  Of course there are ways to do it better.  That's entirely not the point.
I stand by what I said. It's by far the worst Omni of the original 16, and the only other heavy in the book which stacks higher on the jank factor IMHO are the Quickdraw and Jagermech - not exactly hallowed company to stand in.

In fact, I just realized something... The Hellbringer is the Clan Jagermech. Both have average speed for their weight class in their respective technology base, but put far too much of their tonnage into their weaponry at the expense of survivability. Like the Jagermech, (which has the Blackjack!) a lighter 'Mech can match the Hellbringer in all important respects and is even its superior in several ways: the Stormcrow.

The Jagermech, though, belongs to a military that can use its specialization and believes in supporting fire (something it's good at!), and I personally have accepted the JM6-A into my Davion forces wholeheartedly.

The Hellbringer, though...

The Clans emphasize the individual MechWarrior, trying to get the best out of each Warrior by pitting them not only against the enemy but their comrades. In one aspect, the idea of an all-out attack to preserve limited resources, the Hellbringer makes sense. But it also emphasizes the madness of the Warrior culture as well, a mania on proving yourself now now now at the expense of tomorrow - or even ten seconds from now.

Not to mention the idea that YOU, the Warrior, are so much more important than everyone else in the touman that dying in an effort to prove yourself the first day of battle takes precedence over being there for your comrades for the rest of your career.

...Man, I really am a Ghost Bear on this subject, aren't I? Is the Hellbringer even on the Ghost Bear RATs?


EDIT: The only reason to like it is for reasons of flavor, rather than effectiveness or practicality. On a longer-lasting tabletop game, it's practically free ClanTech salvage - and worth it even if the Hellbie kills the first or second 'Mech to go after it, because it's chock-full of Clanny goodness.

Hellbringer: The ClanTech Pinata! Smash it and all sorts of goodies come tumbling out!
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SCC on 02 October 2013, 02:31:18
I think Fanboy has a point, this thing is designed like the Clans design tanks, it's not designed to last
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: iampoch on 02 October 2013, 04:27:40
Hahaha I lol'd hard at the ClanTech Piñata :-)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SCC on 02 October 2013, 05:31:08
On the Clan Tech pinata front, that's what massed AC/2's loaded with armor piercing ammo are for, hopefully you'll get some crits, enough to take it out
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: wantec on 02 October 2013, 07:54:40
If the Hellbringer (a first-gen, rushed production omni) is the worst of the original 16, it's got a close competitor, the Fire Moth. One of the main complaints about the Hellby is the armor, it's only got 61% coverage, well the Fire Moth only has 55%. A medium pulse laser (Clan or IS) goes internal anywhere and a large (Clan or IS) will destroy any section except the CT in a single shot.

At least most Hellby variants can fight from long range to reduce the incoming damage. It's really too bad that MASC isn't pod-mountable, I would have like to seen a Hellby with MASC & a Supercharger, just for the craziness of it all.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Diablo48 on 02 October 2013, 09:07:41
If the Hellbringer (a first-gen, rushed production omni) is the worst of the original 16, it's got a close competitor, the Fire Moth. One of the main complaints about the Hellby is the armor, it's only got 61% coverage, well the Fire Moth only has 55%. A medium pulse laser (Clan or IS) goes internal anywhere and a large (Clan or IS) will destroy any section except the CT in a single shot.

At 20 tons the Fire Moth is too small to get decent armor coverage, and at 10/15(20) it is fast enough to avoid fire so sacrificing some of its meager capacity for more firepower is not a terrible idea.  I would honestly rate it as the best of the light omnis because it actually has the speed to take advantage of its small frame which the others lack which makes the Fire Moth a more useful platform that is not overshadowed by larger designs like the Stormcrow.

Also, half the point of the Fire Moth is playing Elemental taxi which gives it some extra protection on the way in.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: iamfanboy on 02 October 2013, 13:59:08
Yes, even in Battleforce the Fire Moth's a threat - at MV 13 it can consistently generate a +4 TMM, even if one hit puts it out of commission with A/S of only 1/1...

But they have completely different mission profiles. Nominally, the Hellbringer is a trooper/heavy cav 'Mech, with a LOT of competition even from the basic 16: Adder, Nova, Stormcrow, Vulture, Summoner, Timber Wolf, and the Gargoyle. Of those, none have the armor problems that the Hellbringer does; only the Adder has less, and it's 35 freaking tons.

As a fast BA taxi/recon 'Mech, the Fire Moth's competition is valid but still leaves room for it: Mist Lynx, Viper, and Ice Ferret. Flat-out, especially with MASC, it leaves them in the dust and generates an unbelievable TMM.

Hell, in my vague plans for the full Cluster of minis I want, I've got a slot for five Fire Moths in a single Nova that will be the stuff of nightmares for anyone coming up against it.

When you compare the Hellbringer to any Omni in the same mission profile, it simply can't do anything better than a single one of them. There simply isn't anything which can make use of the crit spaces left aside from things like Arrow IV, and if you want to hear something sad... the Naga is a better Arrow IV platform.


However, I do take back what I said earlier: The Kit Fox is the WORST OMNIMECH in TRO 3050. To perdition's flames with that hunk of trash. The Hellbringer is a close second.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: jymset on 02 October 2013, 14:07:32
When you compare the Hellbringer to any Omni in the same mission profile, it simply can't do anything better than a single one of them.

In RS 3145 it will do something only it can do out of the first 16.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 02 October 2013, 14:42:27
But they have completely different mission profiles. Nominally, the Hellbringer is a trooper/heavy cav 'Mech, with a LOT of competition even from the basic 16: Adder, Nova, Stormcrow, Vulture, Summoner, Timber Wolf, and the Gargoyle. Of those, none have the armor problems that the Hellbringer does; only the Adder has less, and it's 35 freaking tons.

I think I have identified the problem.

The Hellbringer is not a trooper 'Mech.  It's barely a cavalry 'Mech, by dint of its speed.

No, the Hellbringer is something much more focused than either of those incredibly broad definitions.  The Hellbringer is a headhunter, a duelist.  A platform that is designed to pick one target, and either completely destroy them, or inflict massive damage before in turn being destroyed - usually at much smaller cost to the Hellbringer in material than to its opponent.

It does not soak damage well.  Everyone knows that.  It does not sustain engagements well.  Everyone knows that too.

But what the Hellbringer can do better than any 'Mech in the original 16 is force an opponent to respond.  Even a Dire Wolf can be strategically outpaced, and rather easily to avoid forcing a showdown.  Gargoyles suffer from anemic weaponry.  Timber Wolves and Summoners come close, because they share a speed, but neither of them can lay down the pain quite as consistently as a Hellbringer - especially at cost.  The Stormcrow may be a "better" chassis regarding optimization, but it's a whole six tons short on podspace.  That's an entire ER PPC.

I've said it before, and will continue to say it.  A Hellbringer's job is not to snipe.  It is not to try and outlast its opponent.  The Hellbringer's job is to close, maul, mangle, and destroy anything that gets in its way, and hope that it survives long enough to do meaningful damage.  Which, unless the pilot gets rather unlucky, or is particularly stupid, is almost impossible to fail.

It's less analogous to the Jagermech as it is to the Rifleman.  Use and abuse that heat scale, kill shit, and then survey the wreckage, whether it be yours or theirs.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: iamfanboy on 02 October 2013, 15:27:34
Scotty, that's not an unreasonable point to make: it's designed for duels, and a one-shot takedown.

My problem is that, because of how the Battletech rules resolve all fire simultaneously, it usually doesn't survive past the first duel, and never the second one.

If BT rules were different and it could hit and kill before its opponent could fire back (taking the chance that its opponent would fire first and kill IT as part of the Clans' strategy) then it'd be a valid unit in my eyes.

But that ain't the way the rules work. So if you're using it as a headhunter/duelist, it's a one-shot weapon, a cruise missile on legs. It will kill what you aim it at, but it's going to be expended afterwards. From one point of view, that's very Clanlike, but it's not the GOOD part of the Clans, and just seems wasteful of materiel to me... which is very anti-Clan.

And that isn't even mentioning the fact that the Hellbringer, with its heavy firepower/low armor rating, is a high priority target which is easy to kill: not a good combination. Most commanders with a grain of sense are going to target it first chance they get, and they won't need a second chance, or even a lot of firepower to kill it.

EDIT: Sorry about being insistent here, but I only have a few things that trigger my annoyance nerve when it comes to Battletech. 1) That the Grigori is better as a 4/6 Deva impersonator than a 5/8 heavy cav (What a design flop!); 2) that the Hellbringer is a good 'Mech; 3) That it's NEVER OKAY to modify a design in any way and the ONLY HOLY WAY to play Battletech is using canon designs (It's not! modifying and redesigning are part of the bloody rules!); and 4) that the AC/5 is anything less than the worst 3025 weapon (The PPC and Large Laser are both better!). So this debate does touch on one of my nerves, but I shall remain civilised.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: iampoch on 02 October 2013, 17:40:57
The AC5 is best used using special ammo. Even halving the amount per ton, you still get a respectable amount. Slap in two tonnes there, each having a different ammo :-)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 02 October 2013, 17:44:49
One of your peeves demonstrates exactly why I love the Hellbringer: custom configs.

The Hellbringer D is probably the least idiotic of the canon configs.  Now, imagine what you could do if instead the tonnage wasted on anything and everything not pain were repurposed?  Twenty eight and a half tons is a lot to be going that fast.  It gets even better if you supercharge it.

Take, for example, a Hellbringer config that mounts the quad PCs of the D.  That's already damn near certainly max overflow heat on an enemy target, and up to quite a bit on two.  Or it's between 12 and 72 damage with an average of 46 (which is a lot) to anything that doesn't track heat.  Six tons of ammo just in case, though on a Hellbringer, four tons of ammo is actually pretty alright.  Now add a ten-count of AP Gauss, with three more tons of ammo.  There's still an extra ton in there, so slap on an ER Medium.  If you're feeling cheeky and want to really embrace the "Burn bright, burn fast" mentality, drop the PC ammo to four tons, and then add two more ER MLs.

What do you get?  A 5/8(10) monstrosity that can deal up to 48 heat or 72 damage at IS PPC ranges, and then switch seamlessly to 45 damage at closer range against anything more heavily armored than a person.  Against those, it murders unholy amounts.  Best part?  +4 running PC volley, or +1 running close-range murder fest volley.  Swap PCs in or out as needed at close range to keep the murder party rolling.

Use the strengths of the chassis, shut down your opponent, force a response, and then choose between devouring whatever ends up being the response, or burn your original target into a smoking glass crater in the ground.  The Hellbringer does that better than anything.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Diablo48 on 02 October 2013, 19:22:02
Custom configurations really screw the Hellbringer because anything it can do, the Timber Wolf can do better.  Its 16 continuous crits are enough for the Timber Wolf to mount a Long Tom Artillery Cannon so that argument holds no water, and the DHS in the engine give it more effective pod space than the Hellbringer.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 02 October 2013, 20:42:43
The hellbringer can mount over thirty one-shot launchers and the coolant pods to fire them in two rounds!
Actually, it's a bit short on pod space, so you have to add heavier stuff.
Yes, yes, more armour always goes a long way, but you can't possibly argue with lunacy.  :))
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: iampoch on 02 October 2013, 23:50:26
Shouldn't the Loki be compared and used as an oversized medium instead of a heavy? If thought up that way how would it compare?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 02 October 2013, 23:56:10
Kinda like how many Marik assaults are best used as overweight heavies? An interesting idea. You wind up with similar roles, with the Loki either providing direct(and sometimes indirect) fire support for faster mediums, or using its sheer firepower to act as a bully and use heavy firepower to quickly subdue the mediums it can catch.

Basically, if you can use an Albatross, you can use a Loki. 8)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Trajan Helmer on 03 October 2013, 00:12:36
Custom configurations really screw the Hellbringer because anything it can do, the Timber Wolf can do better. 

Yeah, but the Hellbringer does it with ten less tons. In a tight bid, you're more likely to win it with a 'bringer than a Timby. As someone else mentioned in the past, "The Hellbringer is bad but it's bad with balls."  Considering the Falcons made it to the top of the Clan-pile using it widely, it says a lot about their combat skills. For the Homeworlders, I became a partial fan of the Coyotes when they decided to "redeem" the design. 

In comparison, anybody can win with a Timber Wolf. The true terrors are those who can win convincingly with Hellbringers on a regular basis.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: iamfanboy on 03 October 2013, 00:48:49
Shouldn't the Loki be compared and used as an oversized medium instead of a heavy? If thought up that way how would it compare?
That's what the Thor is for. :D

I've personally always thought that the light/medium/heavy/assault paradigm is misleading as far as categorizing 'Mechs; instead, they should be categorized on ground speed and weaponry ranges. E.G. the difference between a light fire and a fire support 'Mech is that light fire 'Mechs are weighted towards mobility whereas fire support units only care about long-range firepower; scout hunters/harassers need at least 6 MP with long and short range weaponry; heavy cav are 5 MP with ability to move fast and exploit a breakthrough; line 'Mechs/troopers have mixed weaponry ranges with 4 MP; juggernauts are the classic assaults that care more about weapons and armor than speed and slowly tromp up the middle of the battlefield, forcing a response, etcetera.

Viewed by that paradigm, the vast majority of Clan 'line' units are Heavy Cavalry; their assaults move like heavies while still hitting like assaults, their heavies move like mediums, their mediums move like lights, and their lights... are lightning. It's more than just 'Oh, they're faster'; they have an entirely different style of warfare where they dictate range as though they're one category lighter while still hitting and taking hits like their own category.

And then there's the Hellbringer.

I'd be gracious and say it hits like an assault while taking hits like a light, but that's too gracious - the Timber Wolf and Mad Dog have only slightly less podspace tonnage and hit just as hard, without sacrificing their armor to the extent it does.

Its sole, unique claim is that it has a ton of podspace, but there aren't a lot of weapons out there which take up more crits than tonnage so invariably most of that crit space ends up wasted. *grabs TRO 3050 and takes a look* Its primary config uses 26 spaces of 43. That's 17 wasted spaces! And that's the most crowded configuration.

You're saying 7 of those crits, a whole seven, couldn't've gone towards Endo-Steel for 3 more tons of armor?

It's a flawed design. It's BAAAD. I'm no heartless minmaxer (my favorites of the original 16 are the Fire Moth, the Gargoyle, the Summoner, and the Stormcrow, only one of which is a minmax ride), but I don't let sentimentality cloud my judgment.

I do wonder about podding in 8 IJJ's, a TC, and as many ERLLs as the heatsinks will handle to try and snipe from extreme range, but the whole 'Mech is a mess and a few outlier home-brewed configs aren't enough to save it IMHO.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Diablo48 on 03 October 2013, 01:06:47
Kinda like how many Marik assaults are best used as overweight heavies? An interesting idea. You wind up with similar roles, with the Loki either providing direct(and sometimes indirect) fire support for faster mediums, or using its sheer firepower to act as a bully and use heavy firepower to quickly subdue the mediums it can catch.

Basically, if you can use an Albatross, you can use a Loki. 8)

Not really.  The Albatross has the mobility of an IS heavy which is what lets it be used like a heavy instead of an assault.  The Hellbringer has the mobility of a heavy so it has to be stacked up against other 5/8/X designs which leaves the unfavorable comparison to the Timber Wolf.  While you could use it to bully slower IS mediums, the Timber Wolf is still the better 'Mech for the job because it has the same mobility and firepower but carries a lot more armor.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: wantec on 03 October 2013, 06:52:19
In RS 3145 it will do something only it can do out of the first 16.

Is the answer mount a Sniper Arty piece (not the cannon, but the full-size bugger)



I do wonder about podding in 8 IJJ's, a TC, and as many ERLLs as the heatsinks will handle to try and snipe from extreme range, but the whole 'Mech is a mess and a few outlier home-brewed configs aren't enough to save it IMHO.
The problem with ERLLs, TC, and IJJ is that you end up with only 2 ERLL and the heatsinks to use them with 4.5 tons left (adding a 3rd ERLL pushes the TC up another ton). On the other hand you can go with ERMLs or ERSLs (you get get somewhere around 17 ERSLs, a TC, and heatsinks to use most of them)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 03 October 2013, 12:23:43
I don't believe I've said anywhere in this entire article that the Hellbringer is better than a Timber Wolf, or Mad Dog, or Summoner, or Stormcrow.  It's not, flat out.

Once again, that's also not the point.

Then again, if the sticking point in this discussion is that "Hellbringer bad" and I can't make clear how to use a bad 'Mech in a very fun and painful way, I don't think it's going to get much further.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Wildonion on 03 October 2013, 12:52:01
Not really.  The Albatross has the mobility of an IS heavy which is what lets it be used like a heavy instead of an assault.  The Hellbringer has the mobility of a heavy so it has to be stacked up against other 5/8/X designs which leaves the unfavorable comparison to the Timber Wolf.  While you could use it to bully slower IS mediums, the Timber Wolf is still the better 'Mech for the job because it has the same mobility and firepower but carries a lot more armor.

Then how about we just retire everything that isn't the Timber Wolf? Because that seems to be the only response when talking about Clan heavy BattleMechs during the early Invasion era. Use the Timber Wolf or use the Stormcrow.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jim1701 on 03 October 2013, 13:09:13
The Prime would be pretty sweet IMO if they would loose some of the secondary crap and add 3 more heat sinks.  Given the lack of armor for its size and its decent speed for its size I'd prefer long range sparring as the optimal solution.  Of the canon configs I'd probably go with the E. 
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: wantec on 03 October 2013, 15:24:22
The Prime would be pretty sweet IMO if they would loose some of the secondary crap and add 3 more heat sinks.  Given the lack of armor for its size and its decent speed for its size I'd prefer long range sparring as the optimal solution.  Of the canon configs I'd probably go with the E.
You mean you want a Karhu D?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jim1701 on 03 October 2013, 16:51:33
You mean you want a Karhu D?

Other than having both ERPPC's in the same arm, yeah that pretty much works for me.  Of course the Karhu appears to have the armor for a decent fight so long range weaponry is more of a choice that a survival trait. 
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Diablo48 on 03 October 2013, 19:01:24
Then how about we just retire everything that isn't the Timber Wolf? Because that seems to be the only response when talking about Clan heavy BattleMechs during the early Invasion era. Use the Timber Wolf or use the Stormcrow.

You know, there is a good reason I have heard the 3050 heavy omnis described as the Timber Wolf and those other designs that are like the Timber Wolf but worse.  Logically, there is really no reason to use any of the others when you have the gold standard on hand, although the Summoner is not too far behind.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Wildonion on 03 October 2013, 19:30:25
You know, there is a good reason I have heard the 3050 heavy omnis described as the Timber Wolf and those other designs that are like the Timber Wolf but worse.  Logically, there is really no reason to use any of the others when you have the gold standard on hand, although the Summoner is not too far behind.

Completely agree, it just sucks to see it stated over and over again. The Timber Wolf is really the pinnacle in so many ways and it kind of looms over ant discussion of other Clan heavies. Especially when it is the poor Hellbringer. It is almost like we need a caveat for these kinds of topics. "Barring the Timber Wolf, X is actually pretty good!"  :(
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 03 October 2013, 19:44:53
That's generally why bringing up the Timber Wolf in any XotW thread annoys me.  Of course we know the Timber Wolf is good.  Nor, for this article, do we care.  It's an examination of the capabilities, uses, and downsides to a particular 'Mech, Vehicle, Battle Armor, or what have you.  Coming in with "But the Timber Wolf is better" is threadjacking at best, and deliberate trolling at worst.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: cold1 on 03 October 2013, 19:48:49
The Hellbringer, like many others, has been surpassed.  In 3050 it killed EVERYTHING the IS had and was a murder machine.  Stuff just caught up with it.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Diablo48 on 03 October 2013, 20:10:46
Completely agree, it just sucks to see it stated over and over again. The Timber Wolf is really the pinnacle in so many ways and it kind of looms over ant discussion of other Clan heavies. Especially when it is the poor Hellbringer. It is almost like we need a caveat for these kinds of topics. "Barring the Timber Wolf, X is actually pretty good!"  :(

That's generally why bringing up the Timber Wolf in any XotW thread annoys me.  Of course we know the Timber Wolf is good.  Nor, for this article, do we care.  It's an examination of the capabilities, uses, and downsides to a particular 'Mech, Vehicle, Battle Armor, or what have you.  Coming in with "But the Timber Wolf is better" is threadjacking at best, and deliberate trolling at worst.

I have to disagree with this point of view.  You cannot examine a unit without considering its competition and opposition, and the Timber Wolf is very much both because as heavy cav omnis they fill the same roll with the same tech base.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 03 October 2013, 20:24:31
While that's generally true, it's also the kind of thing that is assumed by the very existence of the article and 'Mech.

Essentially, we know already.  It doesn't need to be beaten into the ground.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Wildonion on 03 October 2013, 21:09:01
I have to disagree with this point of view.  You cannot examine a unit without considering its competition and opposition, and the Timber Wolf is very much both because as heavy cav omnis they fill the same roll with the same tech base.

I agree that you do need to consider the competition, but in an environment where one design really does rule over all others there really isn't any reason to bother bringing that one design up at every opportunity. I think it is assumed that most of us know that nothing trumps the Timber Wolf in the heavy cav department. Arguably, nothing trumps the damn thing in the heavy department!

I would rather that we focus on what the machine in question can do, as this is not a general comparison thread. This is a 'Mech of the Week article. We should be keeping our eye on the star and talking about what we can do to maximize its potential.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Diablo48 on 03 October 2013, 21:40:48
I agree that you do need to consider the competition, but in an environment where one design really does rule over all others there really isn't any reason to bother bringing that one design up at every opportunity. I think it is assumed that most of us know that nothing trumps the Timber Wolf in the heavy cav department. Arguably, nothing trumps the damn thing in the heavy department!

I would rather that we focus on what the machine in question can do, as this is not a general comparison thread. This is a 'Mech of the Week article. We should be keeping our eye on the star and talking about what we can do to maximize its potential.

Honestly, there are a number of designs that are at least close to the Timber Wolf so it is not an unreasonable comparison point.  They do all follow the same construction rules after all.

This really feels like an attempt to make the Hellbringer look better by ignoring the competition than anything else because it really does not stand up to anything but other lemons or lower tech designs.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Hellraiser on 03 October 2013, 21:59:50
The Hellbringer is IMHO the #1 clan mech from 3050............. in the "Room to Improve" category.

Honestly, there isn't much you can do w/ something like the TimberWolf-Prime or A to get better, they are fairly optimized.

But NONE of the HellBringer configurations make much sense.  They ALL have huge problems.

Custom Pod Loads will work wonders for this mech turning it into nearly 30 tons of clan weapon death.

Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: iampoch on 03 October 2013, 22:33:43
The Hellbringer is IMHO the #1 clan mech from 3050............. in the "Room to Improve" category.

Honestly, there isn't much you can do w/ something like the TimberWolf-Prime or A to get better, they are fairly optimized.

But NONE of the HellBringer configurations make much sense.  They ALL have huge problems.

Custom Pod Loads will work wonders for this mech turning it into nearly 30 tons of clan weapon death.

True. The Foxes tried to improve the design, and though they succeeded in some aspects,  I feel that the Savage Wolf is a different machine to be used at a much different role than the Timber Wolf. Same is true with the relationship between the Loki and the Loki II.

To be on topic, though, it would seem that currently, you can use the Loki in a headhunter unit, complementing BAs and Protomechs, at least that's how I use Lokis nowadays. They're no longer front line fighters, IMHO.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SCC on 03 October 2013, 22:50:07
While it's an little off topic, the reason that the Timber Wolf is so good is that BT is a game of MANEUVER so anything moving 5/8 or better hits at sweet spot (6/9 would be a slight improvement, as it allows you to turn, but still) where you get more defense out of moving then you lose to inaccuracy caused by moving for you're base movement.

The Timber Wolf does this, and does it in a package that is both well armored AND carrying decent/proper weapons load out, it simply IS BT, in fact with the way the game plays at the higher levels it pretty much is all you NEED in a 'Mech
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Wildonion on 03 October 2013, 22:59:22
Honestly, there are a number of designs that are at least close to the Timber Wolf so it is not an unreasonable comparison point.  They do all follow the same construction rules after all.

This really feels like an attempt to make the Hellbringer look better by ignoring the competition than anything else because it really does not stand up to anything but other lemons or lower tech designs.

Really? Because I think we all know that the Hellbringer is a lackluster chassis. Heck, the opening lines of the article make it quite clear that this is not a machine that is thought well of. The goal isn't to trick people into believing that it is somehow a strong design by omitting mention of better ones. It is to talk about the design and how best to use it--and defeat it, of course.

Also, wouldn't it make sense to compare the design to its contemporaries? Most of the 'Mechs that existed during the time when the Hellbringer was first written were lower tech. Only other Clan opponents really showed how poor the chassis was, at least until the new IS stuff started rolling out in 3055. The new variants for the Hellbringer are merely attempts to keep pace with the better machines that are coming out, after all. The whole Clan idea of keeping waste to a minimum. It is not at all surprising that the design has aged like milk. (Which makes me so grateful for the Hel/Loki II.)

I fully admit to having a soft spot for the Hellbringer, but my reason for all of this comes from the fact that by saying "The Timber Wolf does this better.", we just stifle any discussion we could be creating. It discourages any sort of exploration into what could be done to make the most of a bad design in the face of simply picking the more optimized approach.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Nahuris on 04 October 2013, 01:38:58
At the time that TRO 3050 was first released --- the retcon of 3039 hadn't been written yet. So, a good 90% plus of the opponent mechs that the Hellbringer would have had to face would have been 3025 machines... fielding single heatsinks, and based on a tech level that made the AC/5 a relevant weapon.

At that level, you can catch mediums and most lights... or at least stay in range long enough to do something.... as well as deal with infantry, or swarms of scorpion light tanks. You have enough firepower to seriously threaten the poster child of the day, the Warhammer, and as long as the shots didn't group tight, you even had a chance against mechs like the Awesome. Against the standards of the day, the Centurion, the Enforcer, the Wolverine (standard is an AC/5 version), or the Shadowhawk... this is a deadly machine. It was designed exclusively to fight these IS designs. Comparing it to a mech that has not only 10 tons on it, but also occupies one of the sweet tonnage spots is sort of like point out that a min/maxed character can do more than a standardly rolled character in other games.... as in, it's kind of a given. It doesn't require a whole lot of brain power to keep coming back with how a different design is better.... we know that.

What the Hellbringer was designed to bring to the table is the same as the Warhammer... a mobile weapons platform capable of destroying, or severely damaging an opponent of it's weight class, or lower. It can headcap. If both PPC's hit the CT on just about ANY inner sphere design of the time, it will go internal..... and it can likely go internal on a LOT of them in other locations in a single hit. Against the standard mediums of the day, it's a limb chopper.....and against it's own weight, it performs well. It devastates the Jagermech, it can control range and damage to wear down a T-bolt, and it can concentrate damage better than a Crusader, or Catapult......

So, against machines, designed to fight the clans, it fairs poorly. I expect that...... is it any real surprise that a clan design, facing an inner sphere design that was specifically built to counter clan machines, would do less well against that specialized opponent? The argument here seems to be that plate mail was useless in the middle ages, because modern guns defeat it..... at the time it was designed, the guns didn't exist. It's also like claiming that the heavy cavalry charge was worthless in the crusades, because later generations developed the machine gun..... I'm pretty sure a whole lot of forces on the receiving end of those charges would disagree.

The Hellbringer is a good machine to bring when you have little idea of what the other side has, and when used in the era that it was designed for. It was designed for the initial invasion, when the majority of what it faced were succession war forces. It has long range weapons, it has short range weapons, and it has anti-infantry ability. And considering how poor IS warriors, as well as their targeting systems (as emphasized via range) are, the light armor fits.....

Nahuris
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: wantec on 04 October 2013, 08:17:45
While not a great in-universe explanation, you have to remember, almost all units are designed with game balance in mind. When the 3050 Omnis came out, they had to design them in such a way that there was some kind of fighting chance, even at 2-1 odds. Yes there are some that have few flaws (Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf, Warhawk, Stormcrow come to mind), but most of the early Clan units have some kind of flaw that can be exploited. Things like the arm mounted weapons of the Gargoyle, the side torso armor on the Executioner, the undersinked Nova, the light armor on the Firemoth or Hellbringer, etc. Each one provides a weakness that could be exploited if an IS force got lucky.

But the part I've enjoyed the most about these discussion and MotW articles has always been finding out different ways to effectively use units that aren't the standouts everyone knows that work in every situation.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Headshot on 05 October 2013, 02:58:02
In comparison, anybody can win with a Timber Wolf. The true terrors are those who can win convincingly with Hellbringers on a regular basis.

Nope.
When you put the guy who can win convincingly with Hellbringers on a regular basis into a Timber Wolf, thats the true terror...


I don't think I understand.  The Hellbringer is by far a suboptimal chassis (worse than the lemons on the IS half of 3050, though?  Not a chance).

The only reason he's not worse than those IS lemons is that his weapons are Clantech.
If that isn't saying something...
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SCC on 05 October 2013, 03:20:11
No, you see the lemons in the IS part of the Original 3050 are presumably out of production and most have been converted over to something else, the same can't be said for the Hellbringer
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: blackwizards on 10 October 2013, 15:35:09
I love my Hellbringers. I have a prime and an A variant. I actually much prefer the prime variant, that targeting computer with those ER PPCs is brutal. Because its got such a bad reputation its also ignored, so I'll often park it in some forests and snipe all game- by the time people realize they need to deal with it those medium lasers and SRMs are usually enough to finish off whatever walks its way.

The A variant I've only fielded once, but ERLL are more or less my favorite weapon in the game, so I'm generally a fan.

Completely agree, it just sucks to see it stated over and over again. The Timber Wolf is really the pinnacle in so many ways and it kind of looms over ant discussion of other Clan heavies. Especially when it is the poor Hellbringer. It is almost like we need a caveat for these kinds of topics. "Barring the Timber Wolf, X is actually pretty good!"  :(

For the record I will take Summoners over Timber Wolfs any day of the week. But I got into Battletech as a Falcon, so bias.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jellico on 10 October 2013, 17:04:49
No, you see the lemons in the IS part of the Original 3050 are presumably out of production and most have been converted over to something else, the same can't be said for the Hellbringer
Which is an interesting flaw in OmniTech we should discuss one day.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: jymset on 11 October 2013, 21:33:27
So now that RS 3145 NTNU is out, how do you feel the Loki G measures up?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Savage Coyote on 11 October 2013, 21:55:05
When I get a chance to see it i'll have an opinion :)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 11 October 2013, 22:11:52
So now that RS 3145 NTNU is out, how do you feel the Loki G measures up?
Loki G?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Alexander Knight on 11 October 2013, 22:36:28
Loki G?

Stolen iHGR, iHLL, triple ERSL.  It's...unpleasant inside 15 hexes.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 11 October 2013, 22:49:49
Well, that sounds delightful.  22 point hit, 16 point hit, and a few tiny pinpricks at short range.  Not, perhaps, what I'd have done with it, but if you want concentrated pain, the only way to beat that is Ultra-20s, and that doesn't take such good advantage of the Hellbringer's base heatsinks.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Diplominator on 11 October 2013, 23:48:53
Stolen iHGR, iHLL, triple ERSL.  It's...unpleasant inside 15 hexes.

With the number of Lokis the IS must have, those iHGRs aren't necessarily stolen. Sounds like a nasty variant.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Trajan Helmer on 12 October 2013, 01:42:21
Nope.
When you put the guy who can win convincingly with Hellbringers on a regular basis into a Timber Wolf, that's the true terror.

What a way to ignore my point.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Alexander Knight on 12 October 2013, 02:05:46
Nope.
When you put the guy who can win convincingly with Hellbringers on a regular basis into a Timber Wolf, thats the true terror...

I gotta be honest.  The Timber Wolf just doesn't scare me as an IS opponent.  Part of that is I know what to expect in general from a Timby.  Hellbringers?  I got no clue what's coming my way.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SCC on 12 October 2013, 02:40:42
With the number of Lokis the IS must have, those iHGRs aren't necessarily stolen. Sounds like a nasty variant.
And the (i)HLL it also mounts?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: iampoch on 12 October 2013, 04:11:28
With the number of Lokis the IS must have, those iHGRs aren't necessarily stolen. Sounds like a nasty variant.

I can see CWX using this :-) did the Wolves and Falcons get any world with factories that manufacture the iHGR?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Headshot on 12 October 2013, 06:13:19
Because its got such a bad reputation its also ignored,

Then you're fighting idiots.
The Hellbringer is your typical glasscannon, a hammer in an eggshell.
Ignoring it because of its "bad reputation" is the worst thing you could possibly do.


What a way to ignore my point.
I gotta be honest.  The Timber Wolf just doesn't scare me as an IS opponent.  Part of that is I know what to expect in general from a Timby.  Hellbringers?  I got no clue what's coming my way.

Cute. Whats stopping you from using the Timby like the Hellbie?
Same speed, same warload. All you have to suffer is twice the armor.


I think the problem is a difference in philosophy.
In my opinion, reasonable survivability beats damage dealing ability in priority. Reasonable meaning not at the cost of nearly everything else, see Great Turtle.
Thats my credo in just about every game i ever played.
When i'm designing a Mech, i start with maximum efficient armor.
When i'm building a base, i pull up enough defenses first to stop the early raids to protect the infrastructure.
When i'm leveling a char in a MMO, i concentrate on the defensive skills first. Whats the point of being able of dealing massive damage when i'm dead?
As an example, i was playing Everquest for more than ten years as a Monk. And i prided myself in my ability to survive pretty much everything. Even on a wipe, chances were i was the sole survivor, dragging the guilds corpses to a safe spot. Sure, the Rogue and the Berzerker had higher dps, but whats the point when they're dead half into the fight? Me, i could even survive the attention of the boss for short periods if the tank went down, long enough for the second tank to take over. And in the end, i dealt more damage than the Rogues and Zerkers, cause i was still alive!

The Hellbringer flies straight into the face of that philosophy.
Sure, there's that clannish Blaze of Glory thing, but wouldn't you rather have enough armor left after two downed Mechs to take on even a third?


Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Alexander Knight on 12 October 2013, 12:11:00
Cute. Whats stopping you from using the Timby like the Hellbie?

Canon Configurations.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Diplominator on 12 October 2013, 12:12:56
And the (i)HLL it also mounts?

Sea Foxes.

Aside from the fact that Sea Foxes are always the answer, some of the Mad Cat and Mad Dog IVs use iHLLs and they sell them to everyone.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Nikas_Zekeval on 12 October 2013, 14:44:13
Three pages and no one remembers the 'Star Slayer' Thunderbolt?

Short form, it was a game set early in the Clan Invasion, a company was trying to get to a dropship for evac after their parent unit got smashed.  The Clan pursuit force included five Hellbringers.  IIRC they were racing through a canon system.

Deciding that he wasn't going to make it, a mechwarrior turned his TDR-5S around, and challenged the pursuing mechs.  In honor of his bravery the Clan commander granted individual combat.

The Thunderbolt eventually died, but the final kill count I believe was four Hellbringers outright destroyed and the fifth crippled.  Between the damage and delay the rest of his company managed to escape.

Now the situation and terrain were such to force the Clan to accept the engagement and close to finish it quick enough to capture the rest of the company, but also shows there is a limit to the 'do unto others' school of design.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 02 April 2018, 01:39:05
I have a theory about the hellbie.

My theory is that FASA did optimize the early omnis quite well. Then somebody did some playtesting and realized it wasn't an equal fight 2-3 on one like the fluff said, but more like a lance on one to break even for 3025 tech.

The dire wolf's heat sinks went from the legs and CT to their current locations, the Koshi lost it's 7th jump jet, the Adder's LPL became ER-PPC. The poor Loki dropped its endo-ferro, and about half of its protection at the same time.

---

As for the canon hellbie, I look at it as similar to the Hunchback IIC - stupid until you realize that it's pilots are desperate to make some kills, and don't rate getting their hands on something that includes strategic resources.

Or maybe the designers just had a shortage of endo & ferro at one point - I can see somebody doing a number of challenges for all those factories the green chickens or scary ponies had at one point in a bid to deny them the ability to build some designs. Having an excess of hellbie factories means that that particular dirty trick wouldn't work all that well.

Of course, then you run into the fact you're building hellbringers.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 02 April 2018, 21:04:32
I've used the B variant entirely too many times.  Mostly in Catalyst-run grinders, since it seems to be the only mech I can ever get in that point category.

That thing is just painfully underpowered for how much pod space it carries.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: grimlock1 on 02 April 2018, 23:42:06
I have a theory about the hellbie.

My theory is that FASA did optimize the early omnis quite well. Then somebody did some playtesting and realized it wasn't an equal fight 2-3 on one like the fluff said, but more like a lance on one to break even for 3025 tech.

The dire wolf's heat sinks went from the legs and CT to their current locations, the Koshi lost it's 7th jump jet, the Adder's LPL became ER-PPC. The poor Loki dropped its endo-ferro, and about half of its protection at the same time.

---

As for the canon hellbie, I look at it as similar to the Hunchback IIC - stupid until you realize that it's pilots are desperate to make some kills, and don't rate getting their hands on something that includes strategic resources.

Or maybe the designers just had a shortage of endo & ferro at one point - I can see somebody doing a number of challenges for all those factories the green chickens or scary ponies had at one point in a bid to deny them the ability to build some designs. Having an excess of hellbie factories means that that particular dirty trick wouldn't work all that well.

Of course, then you run into the fact you're building hellbringers.

There are the apocryphal "MK I Omnis" that you  occasionally find some dark corner of the web.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 02 April 2018, 23:51:28
The Mk I urban legend pops up every once in a while, though from what I understand, it has been disproven.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 April 2018, 00:47:52
At the very least, nobody who worked for FASA has ever said that they'd seen them.

And it's not like there aren't plenty of other mechs whose appearances don't match their stats.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Ghost_msl on 03 April 2018, 21:52:50
The Mk I urban legend pops up every once in a while, though from what I understand, it has been disproven.

Well, tbh the Mk 1s do resemble the art work alot more than the ones that were printed in the original - the LRMs on the MadCat for example, match a LRM 15wA5 alot more LRM20.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 03 April 2018, 22:02:17
Well, tbh the Mk 1s do resemble the art work alot more than the ones that were printed in the original - the LRMs on the MadCat for example, match a LRM 15wA5 alot more LRM20.
I once figured that using LRM-15s, one could add that extra pulse laser as described in first book of Blood of Kerensky trilogy and match the original artwork with just 15 LRM tubes per "ear". While the modern explanation is undoubtedly that Vlad used a customized configuration, i keep wondering.
Then there's that Stackpole used wrong names for a "Nova" (description matches Stormcrow) and an "Executioner" (evidently a Dire Wolf).
So, i'm thinking yes, the Omnis could have had different loadouts for their Prime (and thus sources of art) configs (assuming art followed configs rather than the other way around), and perhaps even some names got moved around, before getting finalized.
But unless someone comes up with proof, this is just speculation. It was so long ago.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 April 2018, 22:03:36
Stackpole had a tendency to play fast and loose with mechs' weapon loadouts regardless of whether they were omnis or not.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 03 April 2018, 22:31:47
Stackpole had a tendency to play fast and loose with mechs' weapon loadouts regardless of whether they were omnis or not.
Never noticed such in his books. More like he was careful about being accurate to stats. I have heard he actually simulated combat with TT rules and then used results in his books, with plot appropriate fudging. But perhaps I'm forgetting some examples or mixing up authors.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 April 2018, 23:08:58
In his later books he had a tendency to just write mechs as having pulse lasers and gauss rifles.  There were a few fights I can recall where he apparently forgot which mechs had anti-missile systems and had them appearing on mechs that did not possess them while not having them on mechs that should have.  But all that's really off topic for the Loki so if we want to discuss it further we should probably start a new thread.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jellico on 04 April 2018, 11:57:44
It is not like the early 1990s didn't have its fair share of glass cannons on both sides of the tech divide. All of the 3050 Clantech reeks of the L1 design ethic floating around at the time rather than designing to match the capabilities of the tech.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SteelRaven on 23 May 2019, 14:22:13
Hate to be the one to necro post but people can't stop talking about the Hellbringer in other MotW post.

As I may have posted in the past, I have killed Assault mechs with the Hellbringer Prime so it has earned a place in my heart. No, it's not a Timber Wolf A (which is damn near perfect IMO) you need to be a sneaking bastard in a Hellbringer to save what little armor you have but it's electronic warfare package helps you allot in that aspect allot if you know how to use it.

That said, the lack of armor doesn't give you allot of room for mistakes. Why most configuration give you at the very least one keep-the-hell-away-from-me range weapon with the exception of the D "Die Battle Armor, die die die!!!" configuration. Have good aim and keep your enemy at range (or get another mech)
 
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 24 May 2019, 12:40:54
Does the Hellbringer Prime using Ghost Targets help it survive?  Otherwise, its too bad its the only one with a ECM unit . . . can the Watchdog system do Ghost Targets?  I could not find anything saying either way.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 24 May 2019, 13:32:42
Yes and yes.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 24 May 2019, 15:33:06
Ghost Targets would certainly help the mech live up to its name, in either system.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jellico on 26 May 2019, 09:43:08
I sometimes get the feeling FASA had very different ideas for electronics compared to how they ended up. That whole TRO3050 period is full of oddly suboptimal uses of electronics.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SteelRaven on 26 May 2019, 11:48:42
Fasa loved suboptimal designs as a whole. Considering the communities love of the Urbie and Charger, I'm sure they felt justified.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 26 May 2019, 12:29:12
There's a decent chance that FASA's designers literally just weren't very good at it, too.  We've had 35 years (and at least a couple new rulebooks) to figure out every way it could have been done better, and in the Clans' heydey of the late 80s/early 90s I don't think anyone was sitting down to figure out how the specific efficiency of engine size versus 'Mech tonnage worked.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 26 May 2019, 15:11:15
And they were doing it by hand.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 26 May 2019, 18:42:39
I don't think anyone was sitting down to figure out how the specific efficiency of engine size versus 'Mech tonnage worked.

I guarantee at least the fans were. [raises hand]

I'd be surprised if the designers weren't.

They just did theme units anyway.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jellico on 26 May 2019, 21:48:23
A look at the magazines shows people knew what was what.

Looking at some of the base assumptions of TRO3050 I half believe someone thought the Solaris rulesets would become mainstream. 
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: jymset on 27 May 2019, 05:27:57
Looking at some of the base assumptions of TRO3050 I half believe someone thought the Solaris rulesets would become mainstream.

In the case of the Gargoyle Prime, most certainly.

[/threadjack]
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jellico on 27 May 2019, 06:38:35
I don't know about threadjack. But it might help to rewire the Hellbringer with some of those nice rulesets in mind.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 27 May 2019, 07:23:06
Looks like Solaris rules were published in 91, year after TRO 3050. Was the thing in planning stages during TRO 3050 development? If not, dueling performance would be accidental most likely.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 07 August 2019, 09:27:50
I think they knew where they were going with the Solaris rules.  Things probably weren't finalized yet, but I'd bet they had a rough idea how it was going to work.  I also remember reading something by one of the early Battletech guys, I don't remember if it was an interview in a game magazine or what, but he said that of course FASA made a lot of the canon designs inefficient.  That's why they included the mech construction rules, which was everybody's favorite part. 

And I also believe that FASA would have purposefully toned down some of the Clan designs.  A Loki with Endo-Steel and more armor, and no A-Pods and more heat sinks, would be a terror.  Especially against 3025 designs.  So they gave it a handicap, like they did a lot of the non-MadCat/Ryoken/Daishi omnis.  There's probably also some thinking that "they're the Clans!  They do crazy things!  Let's just throw some random weapons and equipment in there and not worry about it!"

I either use the Loki like I would use a Rifleman (park his butt in heavy woods at medium-long range and light people up), or without terrain I have him run on a diagonal to keep long range and I snipe.  If he's in woods, I am not afraid to go up the heat scale.  Lokis are designed to cook.  If I'm staying mobile, I'll only shoot 2 PPCs when I know my next move is going to break LOS or that I'm not going to be able to get the full TMM anyway (or if they just give me really easy shots, because screw it, I'm Clan).

It's pretty obvious that there are better designs out there.  But it's a lot of fun to take a mech without much armor and just chainsaw your way through a bunch of opponents.  With a little bit of luck and the right movement and terrain, a Loki Prime can blow through an entire 3025 lance.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: grimlock1 on 07 August 2019, 11:10:06
A look at the magazines shows people knew what was what.

Looking at some of the base assumptions of TRO3050 I half believe someone thought the Solaris rulesets would become mainstream.
Are the solaris rules available anywhere?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 07 August 2019, 11:11:30
Are the solaris rules available anywhere?

They're from the Solaris box set, which has been out of print for 25 years.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 07 August 2019, 14:53:36
According to Battletech logic, that means it should be around for at least another century.
Even without knowing them (or knowing very little of them, rather), I think I can imagine this pile of lunacy would do better there.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: GreekFire on 07 August 2019, 19:40:41
According to Battletech logic, that means it should be around for at least another century.
Even without knowing them (or knowing very little of them, rather), I think I can imagine this pile of lunacy would do better there.

You know, a modernized version of the Solaris rules could be fun...perhaps as part of the new RPG system that's being developed?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 07 August 2019, 19:41:58
You know, a modernized version of the Solaris rules could be fun...perhaps as part of the new RPG system that's being developed?

The Cue system is as far from the Solaris rules as it's possible to go, so the odds of that are very unlikely.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SteelRaven on 07 August 2019, 20:12:03
Don't think the Solaris rules had any real popularity with the player base, thus why they never got a reprint. Any interest is out of curiosity more than anything else.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 07 August 2019, 21:45:46
Unsurprising.  They double down on everything that already makes BattleTech time consuming and bookkeeping intensive compared to its peers.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 08 August 2019, 03:55:47
Which is also something I keep coming back to:
The Hellstar, and similarly offensive machines, are supremely fitting for a video game. Or another "real time" environment, that takes care of the complexity while allowing someone to "shoot first" and thus prevent taking damage in the first place.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 08 August 2019, 04:13:44
I assume you mean the Hellbringer, not the Hellstar, since this thread is about the Hellbringer...
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Wrangler on 08 August 2019, 07:17:11
The Cue system is as far from the Solaris rules as it's possible to go, so the odds of that are very unlikely.
The Cue system is as far from the Solaris rules as it's possible to go, so the odds of that are very unlikely.
Your better off using old Field Manuel Mercenaries Revised rules (or one those Merc later books) has options for pilots gives them advantages in their piloting and handling in combat.  If you turn them on MegaMek, you can see them.  I personally know they are there, i'm using one MechWarrior 2 RPG campaign giving my guy better piloting.

Nothing going help the Hellbringer's paper thin armor other than hoping your character lives long enough to see Loki II (Hel) upgrade Omni.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 08 August 2019, 07:50:34
If custom configs are allowed in a game, one can up-armor the Hellbringer with modular armor.

7 modular armor (ie equivalent to 3.5 tons of regular armor), AMS, ECM, a Streak-6, two LPLs and three ERMLs would be about 2350 base BV. Yes, you lose mobility, but all in all, it doesn't look too bad.
Obviously one could leave out, say, leg modular armor and try to stay in partial cover.

Unfortunately there's no official configuration with modular armor.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Wrangler on 08 August 2019, 08:27:10
If custom configs are allowed in a game, one can up-armor the Hellbringer with modular armor.

7 modular armor (ie equivalent to 3.5 tons of regular armor), AMS, ECM, a Streak-6, two LPLs and three ERMLs would be about 2350 base BV. Yes, you lose mobility, but all in all, it doesn't look too bad.
Obviously one could leave out, say, leg modular armor and try to stay in partial cover.

Unfortunately there's no official configuration with modular armor.
That would help this elderly OmniMech.  Though it would be mix tech thing, since Modular Armor is inner Sphere tech.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: grimlock1 on 08 August 2019, 09:00:55
Don't think the Solaris rules had any real popularity with the player base, thus why they never got a reprint. Any interest is out of curiosity more than anything else.
Just curious.  People speak of them here on the forums. 


If custom configs are allowed in a game, one can up-armor the Hellbringer with modular armor.

7 modular armor (ie equivalent to 3.5 tons of regular armor), AMS, ECM, a Streak-6, two LPLs and three ERMLs would be about 2350 base BV. Yes, you lose mobility, but all in all, it doesn't look too bad.
Obviously one could leave out, say, leg modular armor and try to stay in partial cover.

Unfortunately there's no official configuration with modular armor.
Stripping the anti-personnel weapons from the Prime gives you enough weight to uparmor the three torso sections. The other variants are a bit harder to toughen up with making some harder choices.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 08 August 2019, 09:08:38
That would help this elderly OmniMech.  Though it would be mix tech thing, since Modular Armor is inner Sphere tech.
Also available to the Clans, Clan Wolf-in-exile developed Clan version in '74.

Most non-weapon technologies are available on both tech bases.

EDIT Not that mix-tech matters anything during the Dark Age, it is both relatively common in-universe and tournament legal.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 09 August 2019, 11:16:48
Are the solaris rules available anywhere?

The gist of the Solaris rules are that each turn is just 2.5 seconds long.  The heat scale is quadrupled (goes up to 120 heat), and the heat each weapon does is also quadrupled.  Your heat sinks remain the same.  So a regular IS PPC generates 40 heat.  On turn one, a mech with 10 heat sinks fires its PPC.  It gains 40 heat, minus 10, and is at 30 heat after the first turn.  That's about 7 heat in normal Battletech, so you're at -1 movement point.  Turn 2, if you don't do anything you'll go down to 20 heat, still a 5 on the CBT heat scale, so you're still at -1 movement.  End of Turn 3, you'll go down to 10 heat, which is no penalty.  Turn 4, you're back to zero, and now it would be the end of one normal Battletech turn.  So a lot of designs can be oversinked and make sense, because you get heat spikes that wouldn't make any difference in normal Battletech play, but do make a difference in the hyper-accounting world of Solaris.

Weapons also have a reload time, the number of Solaris turns that must pass before you can shoot it again without risk of damage.  Machine guns have a reload time of zero.  You can fire them every single Solaris turn with no problem.  PPCs, LRMs, and Gauss Rifles have longer reload times (2 or even 3), meaning if you fire it on Turn 1, you'll have to wait until Turn 4 or even Turn 5 (what would be a new CBT turn) before they can be fired again.  As I recall, AC-2s and AC-5s have a very short reload time, maybe 0 or 1.  So you could basically double, triple, or quadruple tap those things and shoot way faster than normal.  Clan weapons also have shorter reload times.

The Man-O-War Prime, with its twin SRM-6s and twin LB-5s, I believe can fire them all every Solaris turn.  So it can actually overheat in its primary configuration, despite having 16 DHS.  Take a look at the original Werewolf mech from Solaris (though Sarna has the stats wrong).  It has 2 small pulse lasers, an SRM-6, a medium pulse laser, and 2 machine guns.  It carries 16 DHS for that, and it needs them all.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Firesprocket on 09 August 2019, 15:02:34
Range scale is also different.  Solaris hex size is 7.5m.  that means another intervening mech between shooter and target can be blocked as well.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 09 August 2019, 15:59:46
Yeah, you still move the same number of hexes, but since the time is quartered, so is the hex size.  So weapon range is quadrupled (a machine gun has a 12 hex range).
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Fat Guy on 09 August 2019, 22:40:42
Kickstarter backers today got developmental art of ten of the upcoming 'Mechs, and the Loki was one of them.

Damned if it doesn't look sweet!
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: wesharrisb on 10 August 2019, 04:36:57
Would not modular armor and a flashbulb armament work as a possible variant that helps to fix the armor issue?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 10 August 2019, 10:32:34
Would not modular armor and a flashbulb armament work as a possible variant that helps to fix the armor issue?

It's easier to just supplement a canon Hellbringer with a combination of tactics and maniacal laughter.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 10 August 2019, 10:38:07
It's easier to just supplement a canon Hellbringer with a combination of tactics and maniacal laughter.
External speakers, then.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jellico on 10 August 2019, 14:28:29
Would not modular armor and a flashbulb armament work as a possible variant that helps to fix the armor issue?

What you gain with armour you lose with MP. The maximum you can gain is 70 points for 7 tons reducing you to 4/6 with 198 points of armour, 20 tons of pod space and easy to knock over.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 August 2019, 00:11:54
You're better off with a Loki II instead.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 11 August 2019, 04:28:48
You're better off with a Loki II instead.
Not an option until 3121, and even then factions are somewhat different.

(Obviously this only matters if one more or less adheres to those limits.)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jellico on 11 August 2019, 08:02:17
Warrior up. Take a Crossbow.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 11 August 2019, 09:23:11
Warrior up. Take a Crossbow.
(http://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/thumb/2/26/Liaouniform3025deathcommando.png/244px-2lfygcn21gcxdtcyj86sx4a5t97qzzx.png?timestamp=20101025204526)
?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 August 2019, 11:38:39
Not an option until 3121, and even then factions are somewhat different.

(Obviously this only matters if one more or less adheres to those limits.)

Modular armor isn't available until 3070, and it's experimental tech then.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 11 August 2019, 12:18:40
Yeah but 3070s to 3121 is quite long stretch, especially since a lot of experimental tech becomes generally available after the Jihad.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 11 August 2019, 14:42:50
What are people's favorite Hellbringer configurations by the way?

I like the A because it is cheap yet reasonable. The active probe and Narc aren't that great perhaps but they do reduce the 'Mech's BV cost. Otherwise the armament has nicely long range yet it doesn't overheat the 'Mech crazily (seriously, though i'm fine with overheating, the Prime does perhaps heat up a bit too much).

The F is fine as well. Flexible and cheap. Low ammo is irrelevant, it is Hellbringer so it probably dies before it runs out of ammo.

Otherwise the configs seem to vary from stupid to meh to "too many new toys". Many are usable to be sure, just not something i'm inclined to pick in most cases.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 11 August 2019, 14:59:36
I favor the Prime for the ability to be going top speed from the start of the game until the moment you drop dead.  Shooting the arm off a Prime doesn't slow it down it just makes it angry! :D

The other one I like a lot is the G for the "It has WHAT?! :o" factor that never gets old.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 11 August 2019, 15:06:08
I feel like the Prime's too expensive for what it does, especially its armor.
For comparison, the Timber Wolf D costs pretty much equal BV yet offers far more armor.
True, it doesn't offer as much firepower, but given that it can consistently keep up its ROF and take hits, i'm inclined to bet on it winning.

I want to like it but...

I'll admit the G is pretty hilarious. Just always forget it exists.


Also realized i can cram in the Summoner Prime into a Hellbringer with two tons of ammo for the LB-X. Can we have official RS for that? Budget Summoner.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 August 2019, 15:28:51
I dislike the A variant because it's too reasonable. If you're not going balls to the wall crazy in a Loki, you're doing it wrong.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 11 August 2019, 15:38:49
There are no crazy configs for the Hellbringer, the Prime aside. The B is just a plain failure (more or less every original Omni has one failure config, like the Timber Wolf B), others just run mixes of weapons that range from meh to rather specialized (eg the D), but nothing i'd characterize as crazy.

...
Whoah, you can fit 20 ER small lasers, a TarComp, jump jets, and extra cooling to the Hellbringer.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Hellraiser on 11 August 2019, 16:13:42
I feel like the Prime's too expensive for what it does, especially its armor.
For comparison, the Timber Wolf D costs pretty much equal BV yet offers far more armor.

Because BV2 doesn't handle overheating mechs well.

Its one of my only real complaints about it.

Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 11 August 2019, 19:20:28
Because BV2 doesn't handle overheating mechs well.

Its one of my only real complaints about it.

It can, if the brackets are arranged well.

*Looks at the Loki*

Yah, not so much. It's paying full price for the second PPC it has to use sparingly.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 11 August 2019, 22:22:52
The Loki is a balls-to-the-wall asskicker on offense.  Defensively?  Umm... hey, look it's the Goodyear blimp! (sneaks away)

My own head-canon is that some of the crazy configurations we see on Clan mechs are because of 1) what they expected to face when they arrived in the Inner Sphere, 2) cramming needed equipment into any available chassis, and 3) not having an endless supply of equipment.  These come together to result in certain sub-optimal configurations.

The Loki Prime makes sense if your goal is to slaughter an Inner Sphere heavy lance.  You've got more than enough firepower to kill a mech in two to three turns, faster if those PPCs double up on a location (legging an opponent is almost as good as killing them -- you can move to your next target).  The A-pods don't really make sense on the tabletop, but they make perfect sense if the Clans believe that the Inner Sphere makes heavy use of anti-mech infantry.  After all, it's not like the Loki needs more firepower.  So basically they give protection against what they think is going to be a common IS tactic.  An Active Probe and an ECM suite means that the Prime is probably providing all the electronics support for its Star.  The Falcons don't use a lot of great scout mechs, so the Loki kind of gets to do that job too.

So you give it enough firepower to kill anything you encounter, and you've still got pod space left over.  You could make it more heat efficient, but it really doesn't have the armor to last in a lengthy battle anyway.  It's designed to kill things really really fast.  So give it some defense against sneaky IS infantry attacks, and load it down with electronics.  I think that makes sense, given how the Falcons plan to use it.

The B configuration looks to be anti-vehicle.  Since the Falcons were fighting the FedCom and their RCTs, that makes sense.  You've got 8 Gauss slugs, but I think that's really more a last-ditch weapon.  I think this configuration is intended to bat cleanup.  It carries SRM-6s with Artemis because the Streaks are going to get put on somebody who is off fighting other mechs.  This is basically the budget configuration when you're vehicle hunting.  One of these could pretty easily destroy a lance of IS heavy tanks, probably a company under the old BMR vehicle rules.  The chassis isn't optimized for it, but it doesn't have to be.

Edit:  While the Falcons have access to each of the original 16 omnis (at least in the novels they seem to have all of them), the mechs they're truly known for during the first few waves of the invasion are the Uller, Loki, and Thor.  If we assume that those mechs make up the majority of the Falcon chassis (or let's say 50%), then they're going to get pressed into roles that they may not be perfectly suited for.  While the Smoke Jaguars may send a Koshi to scout out a neighborhood in a city, or the Ghost Bears may use a Dasher or Dragonfly, the Falcons choose to have another Loki.  This would have trade-offs, of course.  You aren't a perfect scout, but holy crap do you have firepower in case you find something.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 11 August 2019, 22:49:40
After all, it's not like the Loki needs more firepower. 

I must disagree. It desperately needs more USABLE firepower. Sacrifice some A-Pads for a single additional sink and it becomes a more lethal mech. Add two and it becomes a contender in it's BPV class.

Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 11 August 2019, 23:05:58
I must disagree. It desperately needs more USABLE firepower. Sacrifice some A-Pads for a single additional sink and it becomes a more lethal mech. Add two and it becomes a contender in it's BPV class.

Generally if I want to keep moving, I will have the Loki fire an ER PPC, 2 ER Medium Lasers, and the Streak SRM-6.  If you walk, that's 4 heat assuming the Streak hits.  Normally I will run, and I'm willing to take the movement penalty next turn for the extra 12 damage that the missiles give.  If the Streak doesn't fire, running will only bring you up to 1 heat.  You can do that for a long time, and dish out 20+ rolls to your opponents turn after turn.

Now, you can say the Loki needs more heat sinks, and that's fair... except against the opponents it was expected to face (IS mechs), it's doing huge amounts of damage even while remaining mostly heat neutral.  How much more do you really need?  As I said, it seems to me the Falcons believed the IS was going to try a lot of infantry anti-mech attacks.  Those aren't really common on the tabletop with people I've played with, but who knows what it's like in-universe.  That extra heat sink might not be worth it if you've got an infantry platoon crawling all over you.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 11 August 2019, 23:37:16
I feel like if the difference between "horrible" and "solid contender" is one or two heat sinks then you're probably just not using it correctly.  2-4 heat should not be such a sharp cutoff.  Taking a movement penalty or even a brief targeting penalty is perfectly acceptable if you're both 1) timing your moves and usage to mitigate that risk and 2) still willing to accept risk in order to win.  If the range bands are favorable (i.e. 11-14 hexes) then I'll happily be firing two PPCs and angle to make it to some cover next turn, whereupon I'll fire only one PPC.  This is not the mark of a 'Mech incapable of handling its own heat load, this is the mark of a 'Mech making effective use of the heat scale to cram extra offense into it where none would be able to exist on a lesser platform.

It's a Hellbringer.  Pieces can start falling off and your offensive output will not appreciably change.  This is terrifying to some players.  Use that.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 12 August 2019, 00:30:28
We criticize a lot of mechs based on their performance in the board game.  And while that's fair to a degree, in the fiction these mechs are supposed to be weapons of war.  There are considerations beyond who shoots best.

I think it makes sense for a mech to make sacrifices in raw beat-down in order to bring specialized equipment to the battlefield.  It particularly makes sense for an Omnimech.  Now when that special equipment doesn't get used, we say "oh what a waste", and then we compare it to a mech that's all guns, armor, and heat sinks.  I'm not sure that's the right way to look at it.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Sartris on 12 August 2019, 00:44:08
I favor the Prime for the ability to be going top speed from the start of the game until the moment you drop dead.  Shooting the arm off a Prime doesn't slow it down it just makes it angry! :D

The other one I like a lot is the G for the "It has WHAT?! :o" factor that never gets old.

the G is in my top 10 favorite clan mechs just because people fall out of their chairs the first time you use it

Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 August 2019, 00:53:06
Just make sure you have a decent pilot in it.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Sartris on 12 August 2019, 01:01:04
i will not. easy shots just don't generate the pure drama before the dice hit the table
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 August 2019, 01:26:49
I'm not talking about the shots, I'm talking about the PSRs to remain upright after firing.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 12 August 2019, 01:55:00
I'm not talking about the shots, I'm talking about the PSRs to remain upright after firing.
Ja. Anything with a heavy gauss gets somebody good at staying on their feet.



I wouldn't call the Loki horrible. An exercise in risk and resource management, yes. Something a Marauder -3R pilot would feel right at home in, yes. A mech that prioritized general warfighting over straight fights, yes. One of the last things I'd give a new player, yes. Hard to justify at 2650 BPV when there are other options available, yes. Really easy to improve signifigantly the dueling capability of, yes.

But not outright horrible.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 12 August 2019, 02:51:17
quoted instead of modified. disregard and delete
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: wantec on 12 August 2019, 06:45:24
...
Whoah, you can fit 20 ER small lasers, a TarComp, jump jets, and extra cooling to the Hellbringer.
If you're not using improved jump jets to get that 7-8 hex jump then you're doing it wrong
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Ursus Maior on 12 August 2019, 07:52:26
I'll admit the G is pretty hilarious. Just always forget it exists.
I just discovered there is something like the Improved Heavy Gauss. That is a seriously incredible weapon. I need to toy with it a bit. *runsofftoMekLab*
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 12 August 2019, 08:08:27
If you're not using improved jump jets to get that 7-8 hex jump then you're doing it wrong
I detest IJJs on conceptual level and don't voluntarily use them (have one or two design exceptions).
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: RogueK on 12 August 2019, 11:48:15
Possibly beyond scope of this, but I love the huge bays of the Loki for a specific role:

Artillerymech! :P It can fit easilly a wide range of artillery weapons, Arrow IV, Sniper for when you want to keep it in a different post code, and for close range assault gun work a Long Tom Cannon (For when you want to make a decent go at instagibbing an elemental star in one go) .

Yeah not really done that for one off fights, more campaign/scenario/narrative thing.

Of course the Jade Falcons would *NOT* be the people to do this. But then the Wolves who *DO* Use artillery (See plentitude of Naga) are noted as preferring the Loki over the Cauldron-born that replaces it for several clans. They'd probably be willing to use it like that :P
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 12 August 2019, 12:07:28
Of course the Jade Falcons would *NOT* be the people to do this. But then the Wolves who *DO* Use artillery (See plentitude of Naga) are noted as preferring the Loki over the Cauldron-born that replaces it for several clans. They'd probably be willing to use it like that :P

The only use the Wolves have for Hellbringers is moving spare parts for Linebackers and isorla Arcas . . . maybe Cauldron Born.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: RogueK on 12 August 2019, 12:17:58
The only use the Wolves have for Hellbringers is moving spare parts for Linebackers and isorla Arcas . . . maybe Cauldron Born.

From TRO 3058 Upgrade. Deployment section on Cauldron-born:

Once fielded in great numbers by the Smoke Jaguars, the Cauldron-Born has profilerated to many of Kerensky's clans, though some like the Wolves, Jade Falcons and Coyotes, continue to field Lokis instead.


Apparently for whatever reason the wolves outright prefer the Loki over Cauldron-born. And the Linebacker isn't all that popular either. Y'know only kept in service due to dire lack of equipment according to it's entry.

IMPLICATION is that the wolves like the Loki more than either for some crazy reason.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 August 2019, 12:21:55
Because Vlad's Wolves are all nuts.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 12 August 2019, 13:17:28
Yeah, I was not talking about the Crusaders . . .
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 12 August 2019, 14:15:11
Hellbringers reallly DO make for very useful Arrow platforms. It's easy to fit a launcher and a boatload of ammo with that cavernous pod space, it's fast enough to easily move back to a field base for reloads (or a respec for the pods if needed), and has enough space for good backup weapons as well. Very handy role for them, assuming honor isn't high on your priority list. (And of course, the Clans regularly practice hypocrisy, so why not? See: Falcons on Apollo early in the invasion.)

Another excellent role for the Hellbringer is as an AA unit. This allows you to stay off the front lines (always a good thing, keeps the armor a little less vulnerable), and with that beforementioned gigantic wad of pod space you can pack all kinds of goodies. Twin LB-10X is a great start, or LB-5X if you need the range more. Ammo for days, of course! A few lasers, maybe an LRM rack? Go nuts. (NOTE: LB-20X is never a good idea on here and whomever brewed up the 'C' config is responsible for a whole lot of Hellbringer pilots meeting an unnecessary doom.)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 12 August 2019, 14:29:36
Possibly beyond scope of this, but I love the huge bays of the Loki for a specific role:

Artillerymech! :P It can fit easilly a wide range of artillery weapons, Arrow IV, Sniper for when you want to keep it in a different post code, and for close range assault gun work a Long Tom Cannon (For when you want to make a decent go at instagibbing an elemental star in one go) .

Yeah not really done that for one off fights, more campaign/scenario/narrative thing.

Of course the Jade Falcons would *NOT* be the people to do this. But then the Wolves who *DO* Use artillery (See plentitude of Naga) are noted as preferring the Loki over the Cauldron-born that replaces it for several clans. They'd probably be willing to use it like that :P

I think the Falcons would use Arrow IV just fine.  While they love their honor duels, my impression of Clan honor is that if it's not mech vs mech, nobody pays too close attention.  Your average Clan warrior seeking a Bloodname isn't going to get a grand reputation by gunning down infantry or destroying a lance of heavy tanks.  Those are the parts of the video you fast-forward over.  And then you've got the occasional opponent who just wants to hide in the woods or otherwise piss people off.  If the enemy refuses to engage, or when obvious trap is obvious, might as well just bombard them with artillery.

Clan honor is a mixture of ruthless aggression, risk assessment, and spin doctoring.  Suppose an enemy mech company is somewhere in that abandoned factory.  They won't respond to your radio challenges, and they're just dug in.  Intelligence reports that there are two full companies of SRM Carriers hiding in that area as well.  The Star Colonel has to decide what to do with his Cluster.  There are probably a couple of young Star Commanders who want to charge in blindly and laser the shit out of everything.  But anyone with half a brain can see that if you do that, you're gonna get SRMed to death with the Hidden Unit rules.  So all the Trinary Captains look at each other, say "this is a trap, right?"  Everybody nods their heads, and nobody wants to get humiliated by letting some hot-head underling lose a bunch of their mechs.  So you load up your Lokis with Arrow IVs and just bomb the place to rubble.  "We cleverly saw through their ambush, and honorably bombed them to pieces" everyone says.  Nobody earns a lot of glory, but it's not a career killer either.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 August 2019, 14:32:36
Another excellent role for the Hellbringer is as an AA unit. This allows you to stay off the front lines (always a good thing, keeps the armor a little less vulnerable), and with that beforementioned gigantic wad of pod space you can pack all kinds of goodies. Twin LB-10X is a great start, or LB-5X if you need the range more.

So the F variant?
Quote
Ammo for days, of course! A few lasers, maybe an LRM rack? Go nuts. (NOTE: LB-20X is never a good idea on here and whomever brewed up the 'C' config is responsible for a whole lot of Hellbringer pilots meeting an unnecessary doom.)

Not the F variant, though start with that and dump secondary weapons for additional ammo.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: wantec on 12 August 2019, 14:53:27
I detest IJJs on conceptual level and don't voluntarily use them (have one or two design exceptions).
That may be, but when it gives you a +4 defensive modifier for jumping 7-8 hexes that helps with many of the Hellbringer's defensive woes.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 12 August 2019, 15:00:37
And it makes too much sense for the Hellbringer lol
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 12 August 2019, 15:06:05
And it makes too much sense for the Hellbringer lol

Well, yeah, there's THAT little problem.

Seriously, that first four configs are just batty. The D is really the first one that makes sense, and even then it's very over-engineered to do one job at the cost of all else. This is a tough Mech to love anyway, but configs like the Prime or B make you want to scream.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 12 August 2019, 15:10:26
As i said earlier, the B is part of the failure config series the original OmniMechs have. Some more so than others, like the Nova...
The Prime is workable, just too expensive.

Pity there's no missile-heavy Hellbringer. You can cram in quad LRM-20s with two tons of ammo per launcher and a backup laser. Long range, good heat sink use...
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 12 August 2019, 15:20:09
As i said earlier, the B is part of the failure config series the original OmniMechs have. Some more so than others, like the Nova...
The Prime is workable, just too expensive.

Pity there's no missile-heavy Hellbringer. You can cram in quad LRM-20s with two tons of ammo per launcher and a backup laser. Long range, good heat sink use...

I've always enjoyed making a Mad Cat clone out of them, with a pair of ER large, a pair of LRM-20s, a couple of AMS to make that armor stretch further... you can make a surprisingly good long-range support unit out of it.

The problem remains though that if you're that focused on that role, you're probably better off just using a Mad Cat or a Vulture to begin with.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 12 August 2019, 15:23:41
Well, yeah, there's THAT little problem.

Seriously, that first four configs are just batty. The D is really the first one that makes sense, and even then it's very over-engineered to do one job at the cost of all else. This is a tough Mech to love anyway, but configs like the Prime or B make you want to scream.

If you're counting the C, than I disagree. That thing is brutality in close, and not bad at either long or medium range.

Its survival is an issue, but that is true of any Loki.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 August 2019, 16:20:20
It survives by firing more.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jellico on 13 August 2019, 02:16:39
What are people's favorite Hellbringer configurations by the way?


I like the Prime because it is nearly the only way to bring electronics in an Omni Star well into the 3060s.

That is really disappointing when you main opposition is the Draconis Combine and Word of Blake.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 13 August 2019, 07:43:39
I'll go with the D, because Hellbringers don't do well at fighting Mechs generally, but it turns out that they shine at making battle armor go away. Know your role and serve it, freebirth.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 13 August 2019, 08:36:14
D for fighting conventional stuff, Prime for anything else. Any other config and you just have to get too danged close. (Okay, the A is mildly serviceable IF you've got a good gunner.)

The obvious rule for dealing with a Hellbringer's inability to take many hits is to not take hits. Since zell is sometimes a thing and the Hellbringer lacks any really good IDF configs, that means staying at range, keeping your speed up, and use the Prime's ECM for Ghost Targets. The tarcomp is there because if your return numbers don't suck, you're doing it wrong.

You see a warrior in your Clan that can win duels in a Loki, start grooming them for command. Either they're smart enough to play the long game and fight where they need 11s and the enemy needs 12s(and thus the kind of folks you actually want leading large formations), or they're brash and lucky enough to finish fights quickly and Clan society is going to see them advance anyway, so you might as well get some training into them before they muck up a perfectly good Trinary.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 13 August 2019, 10:50:58
The Hellbringer is the mech you assign to a ristar for the Napoleon test- 'I know he is a good warrior, but is he lucky?'

If they can win a duel, then they meet the luck quota for Clan warriors.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 13 August 2019, 11:12:25
I love the Primary.  Against machines that haven't maxed out armor (which is most of them until late in the timeline), they can put out enough firepower to rip things apart very quickly.  I'm sure it falls to pieces against 4/6 Clan Heavies, but that's really not what it was meant to fight.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Sartris on 13 August 2019, 11:22:46
the G just because it's so outrageous. i've enjoyed the A whenever i use it.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Ruger on 13 August 2019, 12:36:22
What the Hellbringer really should have is a Rifleman-like config.

Ruger
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Caedis Animus on 13 August 2019, 12:37:39
What the Hellbringer really should have is a Rifleman-like config.

Ruger
Well, if I ever get a Hellbringer mini, I know how I'm going to kitbash it now.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 13 August 2019, 12:38:54
What the Hellbringer really should have is a Rifleman-like config.

Ruger

So . . . cERLLs over LB-5Xs?  or -2Xs?  I think you could call that the AT&T version . . .
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Ruger on 13 August 2019, 12:51:08
So . . . cERLLs over LB-5Xs?  or -2Xs?  I think you could call that the AT&T version . . .

The latter is so Gyrfalcon. Also, this isn’t really the forum for much more down this line of travel.

Ruger
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 13 August 2019, 12:53:07
I'd say the A is the Rifleman, it just swaps one of the 5-cannons for a 20-pack.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 13 August 2019, 14:07:57
The C.

It can kite until things are softened up with ER ATM and the large laser, then move in for the kill. When it gets in close, can do enough damage fast enough that it still might survive.

Thing that makes me like it most is that it has nice bracketing from medium range in. It can use its firepower and speed at the same time, which is the biggest fail of the prime configuration.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Ruger on 13 August 2019, 15:33:30
I'd say the A is the Rifleman, it just swaps one of the 5-cannons for a 20-pack.

Close maybe, but not really. Especially not what I have running in my mind.

Ruger
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Sartris on 13 August 2019, 15:59:19
the F resembles the RFL-3C - twin LB-10x and quad ERML
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Ruger on 13 August 2019, 18:04:53
the F resembles the RFL-3C - twin LB-10x and quad ERML

Had considered that. Not enough range for what I’d want.

Ruger
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SteelRaven on 15 August 2019, 15:43:58
Had considered that. Not enough range for what I’d want.

Ruger
The Prime, A and B Configurations have plenty of range.

Edit:
I mean, you have the pod space to mimic the RFL-3N if you wanted to but ...why?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: worktroll on 15 August 2019, 15:51:33
To misquote: "The Hellbringer. This is the weapon of a Ristar. Not as clumsy or random as a Warhawk. An elegant weapon... for a more civilized age."
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Ruger on 15 August 2019, 15:52:30
The Prime, A and B Configurations have plenty of range.

Edit:
I mean, you have the pod space to mimic the RFL-3N if you wanted to but ...why?

Why not?

Or there’s WT’s response.

Ruger
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 August 2019, 15:54:23
To misquote: "The Hellbringer. This is the weapon of a Ristar. Not as clumsy or random as a Warhawk. An elegant weapon... for a more civilized age."

I feel amused by a mech characterized by the use of targeting computers being referred to as clumsy and random.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: worktroll on 15 August 2019, 16:17:14
The 'Mech itself. Have you tried playing Urbie soccer with a Warhawk? Sure, it will get the distance, but the accuracy is for surats.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 August 2019, 17:05:44
The Prime, A and B Configurations have plenty of range.

Edit:
I mean, you have the pod space to mimic the RFL-3N if you wanted to but ...why?

Because 2 cERLL and 2 LB-5X is a decent long ranged punch along with slapping down ASF?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Ruger on 15 August 2019, 17:32:38
Because 2 cERLL and 2 LB-5X is a decent long ranged punch along with slapping down ASF?

This one gets it.

 ;D

Ruger
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 15 August 2019, 18:44:44
It's also categorically inferior to 2x ER LL and a HAG-20, or a pair of LB-2Xs if you absolutely must have multiple chances to hit and weight saved.

You can fit a RFL-3N config on the Loki, but it's definitely fueled primarily by nostalgia.  Even during the initial Invasion there are better ways to serve the same purpose.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 August 2019, 22:02:54
It's also categorically inferior to 2x ER LL and a HAG-20, or a pair of LB-2Xs if you absolutely must have multiple chances to hit and weight saved.

You can fit a RFL-3N config on the Loki, but it's definitely fueled primarily by nostalgia.  Even during the initial Invasion there are better ways to serve the same purpose.

How is that, the single HAG will get 4 hits while the pair of LB-2X instead of -5X is a max of 4?  A pair of LB-5X gets you 10 chances to hit at 24 hexes.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 15 August 2019, 22:17:12
A pair of LB-5X gets you two* chances to hit at 24 hexes, and aerospace fighters only suffer a control for taking damage at all, not each cluster or weapon.

A single HAG-20 is lighter, has the same range, the same flak bonus, and actually has a chance of thresholding lighter aerospace fighters.  Number of cluster is completely, utterly, totally irrelevant to ASF hunting.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 August 2019, 22:37:11
Okay, you put a asterisk on it without explaining . . . and if the fighter, or SC is down making at attack on the ground map, I thought ground weapons rules applied- IE I know in AT battles its . . . 3 dmg for -5X, 6 for -10X and 12 for -20X.  Against vehicles/VTOLs its going to get a better chance to cripple too.

But yeah, PSR for being hit in atmo period . . . still, its 2 to the 1 HAG hit.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 15 August 2019, 22:44:20
Okay, you put a asterisk on it without explaining . . . and if the fighter, or SC is down making at attack on the ground map, I thought ground weapons rules applied- IE I know in AT battles its . . . 3 dmg for -5X, 6 for -10X and 12 for -20X.  Against vehicles/VTOLs its going to get a better chance to cripple too.

But yeah, PSR for being hit in atmo period . . . still, its 2 to the 1 HAG hit.

I tried to replace asterisks denoting emphasis with bold denoting emphasis, and missed the second asterisk.  Whoops.

...even with ground weapon rules applied, the LBX hits in 1 point clusters, and is literally incapable of thresholding any aerospace craft, ever.  The HAG hits in 5 point clusters, and will comfortably threshold any aerospace unit that has 40 points or fewer of starting armor on the location that was struck.

Immobilizing vehicles is great; destroying them is better.  A HAG is significantly more likely to do the latter, while still being acceptably good at the former.  There is not a VTOL in Total Warfare that is going to survive looking down a HAG's barrel for any reasonable length of time.  I'd be happy to run the numbers between the average of 6 damage in six locations for the twin LB-5Xs and the average of 9/2, 12/3, and 16/4 damage/locations for a HAG at short, medium, and long range respectively.

This is not to say that LB-5Xs don't serve a purpose, or that multiple LB-5Xs on one unit is a terrible idea.

It's just that a single HAG-20 is a better idea, and the the primary objection to using a HAG instead of two LB-5Xs for a "Rifleman" config is nostalgia, not effectiveness.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 15 August 2019, 23:19:52
Nostalgia and era
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Ruger on 16 August 2019, 05:14:09
This is not to say that LB-5Xs don't serve a purpose, or that multiple LB-5Xs on one unit is a terrible idea.

It's just that a single HAG-20 is a better idea, and the the primary objection to using a HAG instead of two LB-5Xs for a "Rifleman" config is nostalgia, not effectiveness.

The HAG is not a better idea if you’re playing in a period before it’s invention.

Ruger
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 16 August 2019, 07:24:50
The HAG is not a better idea if you’re playing in a period before it’s invention.

Ruger

"...should have brought some tanks."

+Last words (?) of General Custer+
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 16 August 2019, 08:09:58
"Where the hells is my air support?!"

-Publius Quinctilius Varus
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 August 2019, 09:09:50
Da Vinci was slacking with the gliders
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 20 August 2019, 04:43:14
Speaking of which, pop-mounted wings when?
Just stick some lasers out the shoulders and flatten them with a very large hammer.  8)
On a more serious note, isn't a plasma cannon also a decent anti-air weapon, provided they get close enough? Most hostile ASF that get that close tend to shoot things, after all.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 20 August 2019, 05:04:31
It would raise its heat, wouldn't it? Not that there's anything bad about that, but it wouldn't do damage.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 20 August 2019, 09:15:47
If you can hit, heat is a very good idea. The ASF heat curve is extremely unforgiving, being potentially lethal at 5 heat.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 August 2019, 09:40:20
It would raise its heat, wouldn't it? Not that there's anything bad about that, but it wouldn't do damage.

Control rolls can wreck the whole aerocraft . . . either with a splat or off the map.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 25 August 2019, 00:39:11
This mech suddenly makes a lot more sense now.

So earlier this evening, I spent a good hour or two reading through an old thread from like 7 years ago.  It was titled "Clan Cluster vs Inner Sphere RCT" or something like that, and it went on for 10 pages.  There was a lot of argument as to which side would triumph in the early stages of the Invasion.  Eventually most posters reached a consensus that if the Clan mechs could engage the RCT piecemeal, taking on smaller groups at a time with their greater strategic mobility, then they would win.  If the RCT got to bring its weight of numbers to bear all at once, than it would win.

Anyway, somewhere in that mess of a thread, someone mentioned a Clan trinary engaging an Inner Sphere company.  A few Clan mechs would sit out the battle, but 12 of them would engage the 12 Inner Sphere mechs in duels, smash through them, and then the trinary would move on to the next target.  We've all heard that Clan star is roughly equal to a 3025 company, but this was the first time I'd thought about an entire trinary just ripping apart a company.  So just for a laugh, I decided to load up Megamek and give it a shot.  15 Clan mechs vs 12 IS mechs.  It was about 40,000 BV vs 10,000, not balanced at all.

I saw right away that this is the kind of engagement where the Loki excels.  You see, Clan honor is a competitive sport.  You aren't concerned about whether you can win, that's almost a foregone conclusion.  You're trying to see how fast you can win.  As soon as the battle began, I saw that there are going to be unhappy warriors.  Not everybody is going to get a kill.  When I thought of it from the perspective of the individual warriors, there was only one thing to do.  Everybody would immediately charge straight ahead as fast as possible, guns blazing.  You want to kill your target as fast as possible, and hopefully you can go after another one before one of your jerk star-mates gets to him.  It changes the entire nature of the fight.

It's a race.  If you're looking to churn out as much damage as possible, in as short a time as possible, then suddenly the Loki makes perfect sense.  Yeah you've got a few nods to utility in a war scenario, like active probes and ECM, and protection from cheap shots with A-Pods.  But primarily this mech is hyper-aggressive and is built on the idea that every combat is a speed run.  Suddenly I wasn't trying to make my mech last, it was all about killing the target right now.  The most aggressive warrior gets the kills.  My whole perspective changed on it.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: worktroll on 25 August 2019, 02:25:12
You see with falcon sight now!  :thumbsup:

Basically, this. It's a duellist, not a trooper, and the idea is to bring the other guy down fast.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 25 August 2019, 08:10:12
The problem with that "race to win" idea is that most other Clan heavy 'Mechs have similar damage output. The Timber Wolf loses a ton of podspace but has so much better cooling it is more likely to keep hitting target for a longer time. The Mad Dog has only half a ton less podspace, yet its better armor allows the pilot to take risks better. The Ebon Jaguar is overall better (no comment on specific loadouts), while the slower Night Gyr and Nova Cat bring far more firepower on table.

Now, things get more interesting when we go back in time and look at the Clan heavies when the Hellbringer was developed:
-The Lupus, which is tougher and equally fast but has only 23 tons of podspace.
-The Woodsman, which does posses 27.5 tons of podspace but it is slower with MASC only somewhat alleviating this.
-The Summoner, a solid machine but it devotes a lot of tonnage for fixed jump jets and has only 22.5 tons of podspace.
-The Crossbow, again equally fast but having very limited 16 tons of podspace.
In this company, and the earlier Clan standard BattleMechs (which usually have slower movement), the Hellbringer seems to make far more sense. It is borderline revolutionary, combining large podspace with fast base speed. Its lack of endo-steel and ferro-fibrous hurt it certainly, but those make sense given that the Hell's Horses were in dire straits after the loss of Tokasha.

EDIT IIRC, the Hellbringer is widely spread machine, though by the Clan Invasion, it is evidently dated machine. I've vague recollection of most Clans replacing Hellbringers with Ebon Jaguars eventually, but no doubt the Hellbringer's long service means there's a lot of machines to replace, guaranteeing it keeps seeing service despite its shortcomings.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 25 August 2019, 10:21:20
I love the idea that the Hellbringer is as much about proving your superiority to your allies as much as your superiority to your enemies.

I also love the idea that these mechs represent different stages of OmniMech evolution. It's a marked difference from the salvage-desperate armies of the Inner Sphere where a mech can potentially stay in service for centuries even in the front lines.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 25 August 2019, 10:58:11
The problem with that "race to win" idea is that most other Clan heavy 'Mechs have similar damage output. The Timber Wolf loses a ton of podspace but has so much better cooling it is more likely to keep hitting target for a longer time. The Mad Dog has only half a ton less podspace, yet its better armor allows the pilot to take risks better. The Ebon Jaguar is overall better (no comment on specific loadouts), while the slower Night Gyr and Nova Cat bring far more firepower on table.

The Timber Wolf is obviously better than a Hellbringer, and as a Clan Warrior clearly you're less of a mega-cool hotshot if you accomplish the same thing in a Timber Wolf when you could have had a Hellbringer.

The Mad Dog doesn't have any batshit insane end-the-fight-now, I can sink heat when I'm dead configs like some of the more amusing Hellbringer configs.  I'll take most Hellbringers in a DPS race against most Mad Dogs.

The Ebon Jag, see: Timber Wolf (also, not available in enough numbers in the early invasion; remember there's a 1 year lead time to take the Exodus Road)

Night Gyr and Nova Cat are both too slow to speedrun an IS battalion.

The Hellbringer is going for the Any% Glitchless speedrun and it's glorious.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 25 August 2019, 12:05:11
The Timber Wolf is obviously better than a Hellbringer, and as a Clan Warrior clearly you're less of a mega-cool hotshot if you accomplish the same thing in a Timber Wolf when you could have had a Hellbringer.
/quote]
Disagree, the Timber Wolf is for pilots who are accomplished, ristars, or just good. The Hellbringer, probably assigned to lesser pilots, IMO it is borderline solahma duty.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 25 August 2019, 12:15:41
The Hellbringer is canonically and inarguably a Front Line OmniMech and is treated as such through the Invasion and beyond.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 25 August 2019, 12:20:40
Yet even among frontline Omnis, there are more valued and less valued ones. Frontline units can have Nagas. Frontline units can have secondline 'Mechs, like the Falcon Guards had when they lost against Kai Allard-Liao.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 25 August 2019, 12:35:02
You're not wrong about that part, but "borderline Solahma" is factually incorrect.  If you have a position in a Front Line Galaxy, particularly during the Invasion, you are not Solahma, or even anywhere close.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 25 August 2019, 12:37:49
And besides, the Loki is canonical a very popular front line Jade Falcon mech during the invasion and beyond.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 25 August 2019, 12:39:37
You're not wrong about that part, but "borderline Solahma" is factually incorrect.  If you have a position in a Front Line Galaxy, particularly during the Invasion, you are not Solahma, or even anywhere close.
Well, it should be that certainly... I mean, it is not much better than the Hunchback IIC.
And besides, the Loki is canonical a very popular front line Jade Falcon mech during the invasion and beyond.
No one has ever praised the Jade Turkeys for being smart.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 25 August 2019, 12:53:16
The Hellbringer is going for the Any% Glitchless speedrun and it's glorious.

Sounds like the entire Warrior Caste in a nutshell. No wonder it's remained so popular. ;)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 25 August 2019, 16:44:49
A lot of the rules of Clan honor make a lot more sense when they're not significantly outnumbered.

I played through a couple of games that were heavily mismatched BV-wise, but the number of mechs on each side was similar.  Trinary vs Company, Binary vs Company, Star vs Lance, etc.  Instead of worrying about making your vulnerable Omnimech last for as long as possible against 2, 3, or 4 Inner Sphere opponents, you're trying to kill your chosen opponent as fast as you can.  Then maybe you can move on to the one or two guys who are left.

I lost a Black Hawk on a head hit, and a Dasher when my target had a chain-reaction engine explosion and took off most of my armor, and then an Archer hit me with an LRM-20 needing 11s. Otherwise, almost all of my mechs were fairly undamaged in these battles.  The Loki's "drawback" of light armor wasn't really a drawback, because the IS mechs didn't live long enough to do much to it.

But the Clan prohibitions against combining fire and breaking line of sight in a duel make a lot of sense now.  I understand why the Clans called the Inner Sphere warriors honorless dezgra, and all that.  Because what happens is one of the Clan mechs is gonna PPC somebody's face off in round 1, and then they're just waiting for a legal target to appear.  Now let's say you're in a Ryoken Prime or something, and you're engaged in an honorable duel against a Marauder.  You've been doing good damage to him at around range 15, and now that scumbag breaks LOS and hides behind a hill.  Not only that, but he takes a pot-shot at Mr. "I killed my target 4 turns ago and am going to explode if I can't shoot somebody else right now" Black Hawk Prime.  He's gonna scream over the comm system that he's been attacked and it's his target now, and that jerk is gonna steal your kill.

The Loki Prime is a fantastic configuration, because it lets you pump out overwhelming firepower in the blink of an eye, which is really useful when you need to finish somebody off this turn.  Kill that guy before somebody else comes in and does it for you.  It's not the kind of need that I would have anticipated, but it is very real.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 August 2019, 09:31:36
And besides, the Loki is canonical a very popular front line Jade Falcon mech during the invasion and beyond.

No one has ever praised the Jade Turkeys for being smart.

Both of these are true . . . consider, the other heavy the Falcons field in numbers?  Summoner . . . look at its ammo problems-
Prime- 8 rounds of LRM fire
A- 8 rounds of Gauss IIRC, but 2 of SRM
B- think it has enough ammo
C- 5 rounds of UAC/20

So yeah, for 8 rounds of fire the Summoner can basically match the direct fire of the Hellbringer . . . but after that, the Summoner has to head for the techs & laborers to reload.  As someone will point out, that does not matter as much in Clan Trials, since you are a lot less likely to need reloads . . . but during the Invasion, especially after they get the first few encounters where they have to spend time hunting down IS survivors . . . the Hellbringer is going to look more attractive to  Falcon warriors.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 26 August 2019, 10:22:12
What about a team?  Send in the Summoners first as shock units to smash a couple mechs each and throw the formation into disarray, then when they run dry the Hellbringers finish everyone else off.

Relies on more teamwork than you usually expect of Clanners, but contradictions are what they do.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 26 August 2019, 10:37:42
Both of these are true . . . consider, the other heavy the Falcons field in numbers?  Summoner . . . look at its ammo problems-
Prime- 8 rounds of LRM fire

Actually, the Thor Prime has two tons of LRM ammo for 16 rounds of fire.  It's the autocannon that's limited to one ton.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 26 August 2019, 10:43:09
Right way to Summoner is to use the C config. Boing boing boing ultra-double tap.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 26 August 2019, 10:44:27
8-10 turns is frequently enough in a duel.  Against IS opponents, merely an ER PPC or ER Large and some missiles is often more than enough to overpower a 'Mech of similar tonnage and inferior skill.

Nothing days "I'm better than you" than having run out of ammo a few duels back but winning anyway.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 August 2019, 10:57:34
Actually, the Thor Prime has two tons of LRM ammo for 16 rounds of fire.  It's the autocannon that's limited to one ton.

Okay, I was using Sarna as my reference while away from books.  Point still stands about a weapon like that only having 1 ton of ammo.

Yeah, sort of what I was thinking Weirdo- but if it IS a DPS race, then I think it would make sense for the average warrior to seek the Hellbringer among the Falcons.  Get that DPS assured without having to run out of ammo.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 26 August 2019, 11:01:31
The biggest problem I ran into when I was doing Clan binary/trinary vs Inner Sphere companies was that people would run and hide.  It was the bot, but it knew what Clan ranges were and so the IS mechs would do everything they could to break LOS.  Sometimes this resulted in the game dragging out, especially if they could get in a place where you needed jump jets to reach them.

The Lokis made quick work of anybody who dared to stick their head out, but then you'd need Thors to go dig out the survivors from their hiding places.  That actually kinda makes the Thor-A configuration make sense.  You've got a Gauss Rifle for long range combat, but mostly you're going after jerks who are hiding in the woods or behind hills.  Some of them are damaged from that one round the Loki has LOS to him, and so now it's the Thor's job to go get him and finish him off.

Edit:  I really doubt it was intentional, but this might actually fit with the Clan names for these mechs.  Historically, a summoner was a person who delivered a summons or a warrant to someone charged in a court (i.e., they go and seek out a target), hence the Summoner mech's name.  The Hellbringer, obviously, is all about unleashing fire and brimstone.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Sharpnel on 26 August 2019, 12:46:51
Both of these are true . . . consider, the other heavy the Falcons field in numbers?  Summoner . . . look at its ammo problems-
Prime- 8 rounds of LRM fire
A- 8 rounds of Gauss IIRC, but 2 of SRM
B- think it has enough ammo
C- 5 rounds of UAC/20

So yeah, for 8 rounds of fire the Summoner can basically match the direct fire of the Hellbringer . . . but after that, the Summoner has to head for the techs & laborers to reload.  As someone will point out, that does not matter as much in Clan Trials, since you are a lot less likely to need reloads . . . but during the Invasion, especially after they get the first few encounters where they have to spend time hunting down IS survivors . . . the Hellbringer is going to look more attractive to  Falcon warriors.
One must remember that prior to Operation Revival the Clan tactical doctrine was more related to individual  ritualized duelling than the campaign warfare that was endemic to the Inner Sphere and the old SLDF. Thus we have low ammo loadouts on most Clan OmniMechs. It's just the way did things and part of the reason that they lost at Tukayyid.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 August 2019, 14:02:20
One must remember that prior to Operation Revival the Clan tactical doctrine was more related to individual  ritualized duelling than the campaign warfare that was endemic to the Inner Sphere and the old SLDF. Thus we have low ammo loadouts on most Clan OmniMechs. It's just the way did things and part of the reason that they lost at Tukayyid.

Sure, which is why I said as the invasion wore on the Hellbringer might be more attractive to Falcon warriors b/c of the ability to keep pumping out the damage since it has less in the way of ammo restrictions.  But a pair of ERPPCs or a pair of ERLL on the Hellbringer is going to keep pounding out damage rather than the Summoner Prime which already burned through its 10 shots of LBX Cluster, either at mechs or tanks when the Falcons started to run into RCTs.  The Falcon commander is going to face a pretty sucky strategic choice- rearm the Summoners which slows down your Ops tempo and allows the FedCom troops to reset their lines, consolidate commands, and do their own reload.  OR maintain contact pushing aside rear-guards and keep the pressure on . . . but do it with Summoners that are only half armed after a initial battle.

I was doing Wolf binaries vs FedCom battalions w/armor support test battles, and a lot of the Summoners are going to have significant combat power drop in that sort of engagement compared to Hellbringers.

Then again, with Omnis, I wish we just got 'X Ammo Bins, must have at least 1 ton for each weapon' since the Summoners scream IMO for switches.  While I love Inferno SRMs for a 2nd ton of SRM ammo, I would much rather have a 2nd ton of Gauss rounds than Inferno SRMs.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 26 August 2019, 14:14:28
I have to wonder if pilots of such machines bid away their main gun in many duels(especially against the IS), reserving it for worthy foes?

After all, which is more likely to gain more attention from Bloodname sponsors: Taking down a mech or two your own size and then withdrawing for more ammo, or taking down a handful of slightly lighter machines with one gun tied behind your back and THEN taking down someone your size with your full arsenal?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 26 August 2019, 14:30:37
My guess would be they reloaded pretty frequently.  One of the things that stood out to Inner Sphere commanders was how versatile Omnimechs were.  That means that individual commanders encountered the same mech multiple times.  Everybody has variants, so one general mech design with different layouts wouldn't have been a surprise.  It appears that many units had a series of battles with Clan mechs where they knew it was the same exact mech, only it had different weapons this time.  Like you could see the burn mark on its left leg where you hit it with a large laser this morning, and the burn is still there but now he's carrying an AC-20 instead of LRMs.  Might as well use that opportunity to reload.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 August 2019, 14:53:06
Sure, I was waiting for someone to suggest a half & half approach . . . in a week long battle, if the Clan troops are just skirmishing then the IS forces would not know if/when a serious push was coming.  So, least damaged & with the most ammo nips at the heels of the IS forces, not letting them get set . . . while the other half or third of the Clan force swaps/reloads/re-armors.  Ignore some of the internal structure damage (if it happens) until after the Clan force is victorious.

For Tukayyid, we know some of the Clans pulled back more frequently- we get a really good look at the Falcons & Wolves for this action.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: wantec on 27 August 2019, 10:39:21
Somewhere, I can't remember where & I'm not sure if it's just a legend, I read that for the TRO 3050 omnis, the order of the variants was based on how frequently they were seen in the Invasion/Tukayyid. So a Prime was seen most, D much less so.

In that frame of mind, it might explain why some Prime variants seem so ill-suited for duels, but work better against IS combined arms forces.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 27 August 2019, 12:21:30
I think the original TRO 3050 said that.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: The_Livewire on 28 August 2019, 10:42:19
I have to wonder if pilots of such machines bid away their main gun in many duels(especially against the IS), reserving it for worthy foes?

After all, which is more likely to gain more attention from Bloodname sponsors: Taking down a mech or two your own size and then withdrawing for more ammo, or taking down a handful of slightly lighter machines with one gun tied behind your back and THEN taking down someone your size with your full arsenal?

There is one story in the fiction where a Jade Falcon bids away one of his PPCs against a Zeus in a Trial of possession on Blackjack, appears to be a Nova A.  Double Down, in Onslaught.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Neo-Tanuki on 30 September 2019, 14:05:52
Apologies for joining in a bit late, but I wanted to share my recent Hellbringer experience on MegaMek after reading the article (which was excellent!) and the discussion (also excellent and interesting!). I've never really played the Hellbringer except for the Prime, and it usually died very quickly due to the light armor. But I became very curious after reading this article and realizing there were a LOT of new configurations I'd never tried, I became curious. I set up a few games where I could test C and E in both duels and lance/Star-sized confrontations, expecting to die quickly.

WOW, was I wrong!

I had an amazing game with me playing an E, an Ebon Jaguar and a Linebacker vs. a Gargoyle, Stormcrow, Mist Lynx and Cougar on 4 maps with a lot of hills and woods. By turn 3, my EJ and Linbacker were dead due to lucky head and engine crits. It was me in a Hellbringer vs. 4 reasonably intact enemy 'Mechs. I figured I was dead but decided to play it out.

I was astounded. For around 10 turns, those 4 'Mechs chased me around the play area. I used my jump jets to leap for cover whenever they got initiative, and popped out of cover to take potshots whenever they had to move first. Thanks to the hilly terrain, there was plenty of cover to jump behind and block line of site to frustrate their shots. The jump jets were a huge help...they just couldn't land hits!

Unfortunately, while I was able to damage all of them, and caused the Cougar to wreck due to damage from a bad fall, I just couldn't get killing blows on the remaining 3 'Mechs, and eventually they cornered me in the open and cored me. But it was still an epic battle!

The C, on the other hand...I followed the suggestions posted by the Hellbringer fans in this thread (pick a target, kill it as fast as you can, then find another one) and they really worked with the C! If I was in a bad position, I ran full out for cover. Otherwise, I would try to pick a single enemy unit out and concentrate on killing it, and that LBX+Large Laser+ATM combo was just lethal! Out of 4 games with the C (2 duels, 2 lance/star skirmishes), I died in one...and won the other 3 matches with moderate damage.

I totally agree with those who contend the Hellbringer is poorly designed compared to other Clan heavies. But after this weekend, I have to say my experiences with the C have moved the Hellbringer from the bottom of my list of Clan 'Mechs to the top of my favorites! It's crazy, and kind of suicidal to pilot, but the matches were tremendously enjoyable and epically dramatic. :)

Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 30 September 2019, 21:46:25
Victory by psychotic aggression? I like it!
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 01 October 2019, 00:07:52
Victory by psychotic aggression being a typical Jade Falcon? I like it!

Let's be real here.  8)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 01 October 2019, 10:15:41
It certainly suits the Falcon ethos of Screee and Leap.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 01 October 2019, 10:29:46
One of the bits about the Hellbringer always got me . . .

Marco Hall, a Ghost Bear abathka fought through the Invasion with Natasha in the 13th Wolf Guards- I cannot remember if he piloted a Hellbringer at that time, but I think so . . . and then fought as her commander for the 13th Wolf Guards through the Refusal War in a Hellbringer.  He then led survivor's of Natasha's task force and others to join Phelan on Arc Royal.  Elected saKhan, he carried out a distraction campaign against the Jade Falcons that gets 1 or 2 lines of text while Operation Bulldog was carried out . . . in a Hellbringer.

Not sure if he survived the Jihad, just b/c I missed some of those books and TPTB killed off a lot of characters at the time but if he did . . . he might be the GOAT, surviving the Invasion, Refusal War, FCCW/JF Incursion and Jihad while piloting a Hellbringer.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 01 October 2019, 10:46:54
One of the bits about the Hellbringer always got me . . .

Marco Hall, a Ghost Bear abathka fought through the Invasion with Natasha in the 13th Wolf Guards- I cannot remember if he piloted a Hellbringer at that time, but I think so . . . and then fought as her commander for the 13th Wolf Guards through the Refusal War in a Hellbringer.  He then led survivor's of Natasha's task force and others to join Phelan on Arc Royal.  Elected saKhan, he carried out a distraction campaign against the Jade Falcons that gets 1 or 2 lines of text while Operation Bulldog was carried out . . . in a Hellbringer.

Not sure if he survived the Jihad, just b/c I missed some of those books and TPTB killed off a lot of characters at the time but if he did . . . he might be the GOAT, surviving the Invasion, Refusal War, FCCW/JF Incursion and Jihad while piloting a Hellbringer.

Again, the Hellbringer isn't bad.  It's lightly armored, sure, but it's reasonably quick and most of the configurations can fight at long range.  It just doesn't follow the later mech design code of "step #1, max out the armor".  With a really good pilot, a Hellbringer should be a terror to face.  As long as he's not going up against Daishis and Masakaris he should be okay.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Neo-Tanuki on 01 October 2019, 11:42:54
Again, the Hellbringer isn't bad.  It's lightly armored, sure, but it's reasonably quick and most of the configurations can fight at long range.  It just doesn't follow the later mech design code of "step #1, max out the armor".  With a really good pilot, a Hellbringer should be a terror to face.  As long as he's not going up against Daishis and Masakaris he should be okay.

My takeaway this weekend was that-just like for Light 'Mechs-speed and movement are essential to survive in a Hellbringer. As long as I was able to keep moving and force high To-Hit modifiers for opponents, I was golden. I had to just keep evading patiently and occasionally sniping at long range until they lost initiative and got stuck in a bad position. Then I rushed in and try to disable or kill them in one burst of firing my big guns, ran out and started the whole process again.

When it works, it's an absolute blast--maybe the most fun I've had playing Battletech. But gyro criticals and failed PSRs to avoid falling were pretty much certain death. Or leg and hip criticals. Any one of those happened and I was toast.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 01 October 2019, 12:06:14
 . . . speed is life . . ?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SteelRaven on 01 October 2019, 12:47:32
More like 'witness me!'
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Nightsong on 01 October 2019, 13:16:44
More like 'witness me!'

And now we're in dire need of a Hellbringer with a sloppily chromed cockpit.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 01 October 2019, 13:33:07
More like 'witness me!'

Did we just come full circle? I swear this thread came to the conclusion that the above was a good summary of the Clans as a whole, a few pages back.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 01 October 2019, 14:02:06
It's a repetitive theme with the Clans.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: mmmpi on 01 October 2019, 19:55:26
More like 'witness me!'

Nothing but Jade and Chrome...
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jellico on 01 October 2019, 22:54:43

Not sure if he survived the Jihad, just b/c I missed some of those books and TPTB killed off a lot of characters at the time but if he did . . . he might be the GOAT, surviving the Invasion, Refusal War, FCCW/JF Incursion and Jihad while piloting a Hellbringer.

Aletha Kabrinski survived from the Revival Trials through the Second Ghost Bear Combine War (3090s) in a Firemoth. Yeah a little bit faster, but a quarter of the armor (5 on the head) and a lot fewer long range options.

Marco is good but not Aletha good and she is never nominated for GOAT.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Firesprocket on 01 October 2019, 23:22:10
Did we just come full circle?
That's more or less the most Clan thing ever.

Not sure if he survived the Jihad, just b/c I missed some of those books and TPTB killed off a lot of characters at the time but if he did . . . he might be the GOAT, surviving the Invasion, Refusal War, FCCW/JF Incursion and Jihad while piloting a Hellbringer.
Marco Hall died during the Donnor Bombing on Arc-Royal.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 01 October 2019, 23:25:41
GOAT?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Firesprocket on 01 October 2019, 23:40:47
(https://anfieldindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Chris-Jericho-2.jpg)

Greatest Of All Time.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: grimlock1 on 02 October 2019, 08:42:50
Again, the Hellbringer isn't bad.  It's lightly armored, sure, but it's reasonably quick and most of the configurations can fight at long range.  It just doesn't follow the later mech design code of "step #1, max out the armor".  With a really good pilot, a Hellbringer should be a terror to face.  As long as he's not going up against Daishis and Masakaris he should be okay.
You're right that maxing armor is a more modern trend in cannon, but ever since I first read the construction rules, I always maxed the armor, then whittled away as weapons and heat sinks were added.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 02 October 2019, 09:13:36
Aletha Kabrinski survived from the Revival Trials through the Second Ghost Bear Combine War (3090s) in a Firemoth. Yeah a little bit faster, but a quarter of the armor (5 on the head) and a lot fewer long range options.

Marco is good but not Aletha good and she is never nominated for GOAT.

Yeah, but she is fast . . . keeps from being targeted as much.  I mean in a binary or so that has a Hellbringer, Timber Wolf, two Gargoyles, Linebacker, two Adders, Ice Ferret, Pouncer and Phantom- the Hellbringer is going to become a bullet magnet.  Aletha has Mad Dog, Executioners, Vipers and other heavier easy to hit targets to distract.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: wantec on 02 October 2019, 10:05:15
Aletha Kabrinski survived from the Revival Trials through the Second Ghost Bear Combine War (3090s) in a Firemoth. Yeah a little bit faster, but a quarter of the armor (5 on the head) and a lot fewer long range options.

Marco is good but not Aletha good and she is never nominated for GOAT.
Sure the standards didn't have many long range options, but her custom from Jihad Turning Points Dieron has an ECM, 3x ERSL, and an ERLL. I bet she smacked people all day long at long range till they lost their cool and started making mistakes.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 02 October 2019, 10:10:42
Well, she was also known to pilot the D- a bank of ERML at that speed is going to wreck folks.

Was not there a female Falcon that piloted a black Hellbringer during the Invasion that racked up a impressive kill record?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 02 October 2019, 13:22:29
At least in the board game, the Dasher can be surprisingly survivable.  I fooled around with it in Megamek for a while, and found that if you pick your targets carefully, it's really hard for your opponent to get you in an effective firing arc.  I could see a Clan warrior having a very successful career by blindsiding opponents and then ducking behind terrain.  Against Inner Sphere opponents, how many Wasps, Stingers, and other light mechs could a Dasher pilot kill without ever receiving return fire?  Surviving might actually be fairly easy.

As far as the Hellbringer goes, Total Warfare rules really nerfed the Targeting Computer (you have to roll to confirm the targeted location now, previously it was automatic).  The Loki is significantly more dangerous if a really good pilot can dump 2 ER PPCs and 3 ER Mediums into a leg at will.  Yeah you're gonna overhead a lot, but you could cripple a slow heavy in one round of fire.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 02 October 2019, 20:11:35
Forget the legs, how many Inner Sphere heavy mechs could take 2 ER PPCs ad 3 ER Medium Lasers aimed at the center torso in 3050?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Caedis Animus on 03 October 2019, 00:34:59
Forget the legs, how many Inner Sphere heavy mechs could take 2 ER PPCs ad 3 ER Medium Lasers aimed at the center torso in 3050?
I know it's 3060, but the Centurion CN10-B was the lightest IS mech I could find on Mechfactory at a glance that could tank 45 to the CT at once-leaving it with 1 point internal. I don't know if the site's inaccurate or not, but there seems to be a theme of 3050 IS 55 tonners only having 26 front armor, no higher (And thus dying by 2 points of internal structure). Even the Hoplite, Scorpion, Wolverine, and Bushwhacker.

I forgot that these are Clanspec ER Mediums, not IS Spec. Rest in Peace, 55 tons of 3050/60.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jellico on 03 October 2019, 08:25:55
Yeah, but she is fast . . . keeps from being targeted as much.  I mean in a binary or so that has a Hellbringer, Timber Wolf, two Gargoyles, Linebacker, two Adders, Ice Ferret, Pouncer and Phantom- the Hellbringer is going to become a bullet magnet.  Aletha has Mad Dog, Executioners, Vipers and other heavier easy to hit targets to distract.

Sure the standards didn't have many long range options, but her custom from Jihad Turning Points Dieron has an ECM, 3x ERSL, and an ERLL. I bet she smacked people all day long at long range till they lost their cool and started making mistakes.


Don't want to descend into this in a Hellbringer thread but...

A Firemoth has literally 1/4 of the armor of a Hellbringer. It is vulnerable to insta-kill on 8 points or higher in a world of 10 point weapons and 1/36 chances of a head hit. (I firmly believe the Clans breed for luck rather than skill. Why they all don't eventually die from head hits in a world of ERPPCs is beyond me.)

The important number is +4. That is the defensive mod a Firemoth generates. +5 with advanced rules and risking MASC. A Hellbringer can and should be generating +3 every turn. That makes a Firemoth approximately 10% harder to hit but 300% easier to kill.

Sure it gets some cover from being a low threat and superior positioning ability. But Hellbringer driven properly should be using the Starmates as bait just as much. If you are drawing fire with a Hellbringer you are in a light Star or you just darn goofed. Been there. Done that. Have the T-shirt.

Finally I strongly suspect the Aletha Firemoth came from an attempt to explain her longevity. I accept it for a Firefalcon. They have a rep for it and actual  armor. The difference with a Firemoth is that there is no room for error. I have tried it. And tried it. Make any sort of compromise for terrain or accuracy and a ERPPC rips half your torso off as an afterthought.

Circling back to the Hellbringer it does highlight the challenges of lightly armoured Mechs. In many ways you have to treat it like a light Mech and make sure your more heavily armoured units are drawing fire before committing your Hellbringer.

You know thinking of that +3 defensive mod it makes me think of the Hellbringer in terms of a light Mech. Plenty of them have similar armour and mobility. Maybe it is the Ghost Bear in me. We have plenty of oversized mediums and regularly have to resort to using armoured bricks like Stormcrows (yes seriously. When two heavies in a Star are likely to be Mad Dogs Stormcrows become your damage sinks) to draw fire from under armoured heavies.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 October 2019, 09:11:07
You know, I do wonder if Aletha in a Fire Moth D could wipe out a 3025 recon company . . .

Anyway, yeah I think it would be solid advise to treat a Hellbringer like you would a 5/8 or 6/9 light in a general fight.  Its honestly part of my disappointment with the Hellbringer of all Clan heavy/assaults getting a LB-20X on the C- we have so few in those weight classes (Hellbringer is the only Omni heavy I can think of) that the BFG really had to end up on one with the weakest armor?

And, like a light you want to survive, you are going to move it later in the initiative order.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Neo-Tanuki on 04 October 2019, 23:19:52
Holy Moley. I wanted to share one more Hellbringer game I just played on MegaMek.

I wanted to try out the Stars from the Kickstarter, so I set up the following match on a 2x2 field, 2x boxed set maps, 2 random maps (sorry I do not remember them. One had hills and woods, one had pavement and roads).

Me: Heavy Strike Star (Gargoyle A, Vulture Prime, Hellbringer Prime, Ice Ferret Prime, Viper B)
Opponent: Core Star, all Prime-Executioner, Timber Wolf, Nova, Grendel, Adder (EDIT: Sorry, I realized after looking at MegaMek the Adder was a different configuration, I think a B. The enemy star had about 1,000 more BV than my force.)

Played around 28 rounds. At the last round, every 'Mech was destroyed except the Timber Wolf and my Hellbringer Prime, which was down with a leg blown off.

The Timber Wolf was standing at one hex away. I thought "Oh, what the heck" and fired every remaining weapon I could, assuming I was dead anyway.

The Timber Wolf is ripped apart by an engine explosion. I win sitting in a crippled (but alive!) Hellbringer and two ejected pilots still on the board.

It was a very, very, very Clan victory. Seyla. :P

I didn't realize until MegaMek displayed the results that the Hellbringer was credited with taking out 3 other enemy 'Mechs. It turned out the Hellbringer Prime was a great closing hitter-the Vulture and Ice Ferret put up amazing fights and poured damage on everything before they went down, and the enemy kept concentrating on them and ignoring the Hellbringer. After they both went down, the survivors tried to go after the Hellbringer, but enough of my weapons were intact that I was just able to hit harder and more accurately thanks to my targeting computer.

I think the Hellbringer has become my favorite Clan OmniMech. Thank you Scotty and the other Hellbringer fans on this thread for convincing me to take this utterly mad 'Mech out for a test drive this week. It is not sane or prudent, but it is incredibly fun. :D

Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 05 October 2019, 00:10:23
"Normal" is just a word boring people invented to make themselves feel better... my uncle used to say that when I was a kid.

He'd have liked the Hellbringer.  ;D
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Jellico on 05 October 2019, 14:38:27
"Fun" is something that doesn't get enough appreciation in Mech reviews.

"Good" Mechs are percentage players. They can be played with minimal risks to get a certain result.

High risk Mechs need to be played more aggressively. Bigger endorphin rush. More fun. Good  Mechs can be played that way but don't need to be. It is worth noting that high risk Mechs are usually dueling Mechs rather than line Mechs.

It is interesting how many TRO3050 upgrades went for more speed and risk rather than turtling up. We then got the pushback through the rest of the 3050 TROs.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: E. Icaza on 05 October 2019, 17:43:13
Great to see another convert to the Hellbringer. 

I love it for two main reasons...

1. I Am Jade Falcon

2. It rarely fails to kill at least twice its weight whenever I field it.  It may not walk off the battlefield, but you WILL know that it was there.  ;)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 14 February 2021, 13:51:34
Played with the Hellbringer Prime today. And... well, i knew it would suck as far as the Hellbringer was concerned, though because of circumstances, it ended up being far worse than i expected.
I won't delve into specifics of the game beyond that it was all Clan tech, BV-balanced (almost exactly), mixed Star vs mixed Star (3 'Mechs and two Elementals each), no zellbrigen, Pozoristu Mountains, against my brother and this was like third game of BattleTech for him (previous two were introtech, he was perfectly fine jumping to ClanTech). Not my finest game, no, not at all.

Anyway, this made me wonder, where exactly is the Prime good or useful?
'Cause, in no zell ClanTech environment, where others can gang up on it, it really doesn't do that well.
What about in dueling? The Prime does have impressive firepower but with its poor cooling and wasting tonnage on stuff that's really dubious while dueling, i'm skeptical it is good in that. Haven't actually done that ever, gotta add that to my to-do list.
Against Spheroids circa 3050, i can see it doing well simply because its massive firepower and generally having mobility advantage. Not to mention its ancillary stuff might be actually useful against Spheroids. But later on...
And as a supporting design, it feels somewhat dubious. Though the TarComp and ERPPCs give it good range and accuracy to function as direct-fire support, and its electronics do provide useful capabilities for a Lance or Star, it is way too expensive in Battle Value for that task.

On paper, i'm convinced the Prime is the worst Hellbringer configuration. It is too expensive and too confused. And while many of its configurations have dubious choices, they're at least far, far cheaper.
And just to be clear, i don't dislike the Hellbringer, not at all. Just the Prime.

Also, interestingly the Hellbringer lacks a good missile configuration, would be well suited to the task really.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 14 February 2021, 13:59:28
I think the Prime is mainly trying to be a Clantech Warhammer.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Sharkapult on 14 February 2021, 14:13:06
Played with the Hellbringer Prime today. And... well, i knew it would suck as far as the Hellbringer was concerned, though because of circumstances, it ended up being far worse than i expected.
I won't delve into specifics of the game beyond that it was all Clan tech, BV-balanced (almost exactly), mixed Star vs mixed Star (3 'Mechs and two Elementals each), no zellbrigen, Pozoristu Mountains, against my brother and this was like third game of BattleTech for him (previous two were introtech, he was perfectly fine jumping to ClanTech). Not my finest game, no, not at all.

Anyway, this made me wonder, where exactly is the Prime good or useful?
'Cause, in no zell ClanTech environment, where others can gang up on it, it really doesn't do that well.
What about in dueling? The Prime does have impressive firepower but with its poor cooling and wasting tonnage on stuff that's really dubious while dueling, i'm skeptical it is good in that. Haven't actually done that ever, gotta add that to my to-do list.
Against Spheroids circa 3050, i can see it doing well simply because its massive firepower and generally having mobility advantage. Not to mention its ancillary stuff might be actually useful against Spheroids. But later on...
And as a supporting design, it feels somewhat dubious. Though the TarComp and ERPPCs give it good range and accuracy to function as direct-fire support, and its electronics do provide useful capabilities for a Lance or Star, it is way too expensive in Battle Value for that task.

On paper, i'm convinced the Prime is the worst Hellbringer configuration. It is too expensive and too confused. And while many of its configurations have dubious choices, they're at least far, far cheaper.
And just to be clear, i don't dislike the Hellbringer, not at all. Just the Prime.

Also, interestingly the Hellbringer lacks a good missile configuration, would be well suited to the task really.
It is best as an open field dueling mech. Kite at longest of ranges until multiple locations are opened by ERPPC fire, then dive in and pound them with the closer ranged secondary weapons.
In a Star on Star brawl, it should kite at range again, and always have something scarier upfront, either built like a brick of armor or with way more close in firepower. Hellbringer should never have the lowest to-hits on the board. Try to not overheat too much because you need movement to live.
Anything with 2 headcapping ERPPCs and a TC is going to have a big bullseye on it. It is expensive in BV though, and frankly I'd rather have an assault or big heavy with less weapons and lower BV most of the time.
In a duel I like my chances. In a brawl it is certainly a "glass cannon" with a big bullet magnet attached.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 14 February 2021, 14:45:05
Amusing. I trimmed the Prime a bit to make it better duelist. That means ditching A-pods, Active Probe, MGs, kept the ECM because the Hellbringer's gonna like all the additional defensive edge it may have. Added heat sinks. The amusing part is that the end result is even more expensive! 150BV extra.
Thinking that there probably should be armor thresholds in BV system, where one gets rebate if they're below certain levels.

I think the Prime is mainly trying to be a Clantech Warhammer.
Certainly but that does make me think someone at FASA hated the Warhammer. 'Cause the Hellbringer Prime feels insultingly bad at being a Clan Warhammer.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 14 February 2021, 16:21:08
It, like a lot of 3025 and 3050 designs, suffers badly from FASA's obsession with handicapping designs.  I agree that it really should have gotten a configuration that focused on LRMs.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Wrangler on 14 February 2021, 16:26:14
I remember fighting this thing in BattleTech center since they only had Clan Mechs.  I picked Timber Wolf, those gaggle of Hellbringers kept getting destroyed due to the thin armor.  Even though looks like cool Warhammer, it was certainly handicaped bit too much. Tin-Foil Armor is turn off.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 14 February 2021, 17:03:58
From another thread on the loki prime/T
I'm a firm believer in winning with what you're given instead of what you want, but if I did have to tweak the Loki Prime, I would swap either the Probe or the A-Pods(not both) for an extra heat sink so you don't have to de-tune the PPCs quite as far to get a high RoF out of them.

where are the rules for de-tuning? I just looked through tacops and couldn't find anything on the topic. I do remember something from Tactial Handbook (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech_Tactical_Handbook) maybe? or MaxTech?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 14 February 2021, 17:11:51
From another thread on the loki prime/T
where are the rules for de-tuning? I just looked through tacops and couldn't find anything on the topic. I do remember something from Tactial Handbook[url] maybe? or MaxTech?
 (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech_Tactical_Handbook)

Should be in tac ops, reduce damage by x and it reduces the heat by x.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Scotty on 14 February 2021, 19:10:29
The Prime is very expensive because its main armament, two Clan ER PPCs plus Targeting Computer, is ****** expensive and nothing you do while keeping those things the same will change that.  You can see exactly how this cripples the Prime by comparing it to the T, which is superior in almost every single aspect except it doesn't have a Targeting Computer, and as a result drops the BV by almost 200 points.

The Prime is a 'Mech for an old warrior to push their luck, in the sense that getting an army shot off by "lucky" hit locations that don't include your torsos at any point means you're still at almost full strength.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 14 February 2021, 20:18:13
From another thread on the loki prime/T
where are the rules for de-tuning? I just looked through tacops and couldn't find anything on the topic. I do remember something from Tactial Handbook[url] maybe? or MaxTech?
 (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech_Tactical_Handbook)

TacOps Advanced Rules, p 100. Kerfuffin has the gist of it.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 15 February 2021, 00:10:22
TacOps Advanced Rules, p 100. Kerfuffin has the gist of it.

Mine is p. 102, but yeah, TacOps, Advanced Combat, Other Combat Weapons and Equipment, Energy Weapons.

Anyway, this made me wonder, where exactly is the Prime good or useful?

This doesn’t completely solve the Hellbringer Prime’s issues, but there are a few other TacOps rules that can help.

One is ECM Ghost Targets on TacOps p. 101.  You use the PrimeKs ECM and your piloting skill to force piloting skill rolls on enemy units firing thru your ECM bubble before they can make weapons attack rolls.  If they fail their rolls, their to-hit rolls suffer a modifier sized according to the margin of failure.  Whether you’re running and gunning or standing over watch, forcing missed shots on opponents obviously helps make up for the Hellbringer’s thin armor.

Another is the Active Probes Targeting rule on TacOps p. 99.  The Prime’s Active Probe adds a -1 to your to-hit rolls when firing through woods/jungle hexes.  This means you don’t have to sit at the edge of a cluster of woods/jungle hexes.  You can embed yourself a hex or two deeper (depending on light versus heavy woods/jungle hexes), enjoy the benefits of those intervening woods/jungle hexes on the to-hit rolls of your opponents, and ignore the effects of those woods/jungle hexes on your to-hit rolls thanks to the Prime’s active probe and targeting computer.  Again, forcing missed shots on opponents helps make up for the Hellbringer’s thin armor.

These active probe/ECM rules can really stack the to-hit modifiers against opponents.  Your Hellbringer can sit in a light woods hex behind two more light woods hexes for a total +3 to-hit modifier on your opponent’s to-hit rolls.  But thanks to the active probe and targeting computer, you have a net zero modifier to your ER PPC or ER medium laser shots through those same two intervening light woods hexes.  And if you’re adding ECM Ghost Targets on top of that, your opponent could be looking at a +4 to-hit modifier or higher against your Hellbringer before adding their movement.  And your Hellbringer might have stood still that turn...

There are also rules that make the Prime’s AMS more effective (TacOps, p. 99), which can also extend the Hellbringer’s thin armor.

To make the most of the Prime’s ER PPCs and TC before it dies, I’d also look into the Called Shots rule (TacOps, p. 78) and PPC Overcharging rule (TacOps, p. 103).

In general, the Hellbringer Prime is a jack-of-all-trades, force-multiplier escort that needs to work as part of a team.  It’s not a zellbrigen or circle of equals dueling design.  It most especially needs friendlies screening for it during the early half of an engagement so it can survive until the latter half.  Even if sitting in a nice patch of woods/jungle and using the active probe/ECM rules above, the Hellbringer Prime needs a Summoner Prime, A, or C or two (or something like that) in front of it to keep the enemy at arm’s length and out of those woods.  Once the enemy is crippled, the Prime’s loadout can dispatch those units while the rest of the force moves on.

The Hellbringer Prime is still an expensive and thinly armed mech.  I wouldn’t recommend it.  But hopefully this provides some help in how to use its loadout more effectively when stuck with one.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 February 2021, 02:06:36
Remember that Ghost Targeting got limited to something you can only do against one target per round.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 15 February 2021, 02:22:20
Remember that Ghost Targeting got limited to something you can only do against one target per round.

Not unless it changed from old combined Tac Ops to now. The attacker only rolls one Piloting roll to counter it regardless of how many guns he shoots at the target covered by the ghost targets zone
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 February 2021, 04:22:16
But it only protects you from one attacker.  Good in a duel, less useful the more other things there are that are shooting at you.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 15 February 2021, 09:09:36
If your best way to use your primary weapons is to partially power them down to avoid heat problems, you need to rethink your primary weapon selection.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: massey on 15 February 2021, 10:45:14
Power... down???  Blasphemy.  The best way to use your primary weapons is to shoot somebody's head off with them, with 3 extra points of damage for good measure.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 15 February 2021, 10:54:56
Yeaah, not a fan of weapon tuning. The only exception would be some TSM 'Mechs, but even then i'd rather just have more weapons to provide options. Plus without weapon tuning rules, the Bombast Laser actually gets some use as a tunable energy weapon, suits TSM 'Mechs.

I'm inclined to use the Active Probe optional rules to add utility to them, but that wasn't in the game i played. (And off-hand, it would not have done anything during the game.)

Ghost Targets, though useful, is something i prefer to omit for sake of simplicity and speed. Plus without it, i probably don't need TacOps open at all as i can find most stuff i need in BattleMech Manual. (This reminds me, i need to print out rules for certain items not included in BMM.)

Think i'm just gonna stick with other Hellbringer configurations rather than the Prime. A pity the new plastic miniature is the Prime rather than something else. But fortunately my favorite config, the F, is visually similar.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 15 February 2021, 13:42:22
Think i'm just gonna stick with other Hellbringer configurations rather than the Prime. A pity the new plastic miniature is the Prime rather than something else. But fortunately my favorite config, the F, is visually similar.

The F takes care of the Prime’s heat management issue.  But the thin armor problem remains.  The Hellbringer really needs canon configs with modular armor and 7-hex jumps (iJJs).
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 15 February 2021, 15:40:32
But it only protects you from one attacker.  Good in a duel, less useful the more other things there are that are shooting at you.

It doesn’t say that at all, it says if a weapon attack passes through a hex affected by ghost targets you make the piloting skill roll to counter it.

Edit: I see errata has changed it from my printing. It still can choose itself and it works for every attack targeting it.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 15 February 2021, 15:48:15
The F takes care of the Prime’s heat management issue.  But the thin armor problem remains.  The Hellbringer really needs canon configs with modular armor and 7-hex jumps (iJJs).
Addendum: the F gets tasked with vehicle hunting or perhaps it should wait in reserve until enemy armor is thinned. More equal playground for it :P

As for modular armor and IJJs... separately or at the same time? Asking because modular armor reduces jump distance by 1.

The problem with both solutions is that they limit mass dedicated to weapons, in case of IJJs massively.
One of my issues with IJJs has always been their mass, i just don't see them a good investment above 55 tons while impacting hit chances significantly. We're talking about 12.5 to 14.5 tons of pod space left for 7 and 8 jump, respectively.
As for modular armor, that solution ends up with being only moderately mobile, while possessing armor and pod space comparable to the Summoner. Functional, to be sure.
Combining both results in a hilarious 5.5 tons of pod space. This because 8 IJJs are needed to retain 7 jump range while carrying modular armor in all allowed locations.

Despite my misgivings about both things, i have to admit i would like to see them used on the Hellbringer. Given its roomy chassis, it is especially good place to use IJJs. And the Hellbringer could use more options than most OmniMechs because of its pitiful armor. It is not a good mainline combatant but for weird stuff... sure.
Other configs for the Hellbringer i'd like see are an official Arrow IV configuration, and configurations that really make use of the room it has. Large banks of lasers and/or machine guns, similar to the Nova and Stormcrow Primes. Also, for extra hilarity multiple low-caliber ACs and ATMs with ER munitions for maximal range.

(As an example of configuration that requires room: previously the G configuration with its Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle was only possible on the Hellbringer in Clan Heavy OmniMechs, though once the Grand Summoner and Vulture Mk III came out, those both can replicate the configuration with improvements.)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 15 February 2021, 17:16:45
Mine is p. 102, but yeah, TacOps, Advanced Combat, Other Combat Weapons and Equipment, Energy Weapons.

This doesn’t completely solve the Hellbringer Prime’s issues, but there are a few other TacOps rules that can help.

One is ECM Ghost Targets on TacOps p. 101.  You use the PrimeKs ECM and your piloting skill to force piloting skill rolls on enemy units firing thru your ECM bubble before they can make weapons attack rolls.  If they fail their rolls, their to-hit rolls suffer a modifier sized according to the margin of failure.  Whether you’re running and gunning or standing over watch, forcing missed shots on opponents obviously helps make up for the Hellbringer’s thin armor.

Another is the Active Probes Targeting rule on TacOps p. 99.  The Prime’s Active Probe adds a -1 to your to-hit rolls when firing through woods/jungle hexes.  This means you don’t have to sit at the edge of a cluster of woods/jungle hexes.  You can embed yourself a hex or two deeper (depending on light versus heavy woods/jungle hexes), enjoy the benefits of those intervening woods/jungle hexes on the to-hit rolls of your opponents, and ignore the effects of those woods/jungle hexes on your to-hit rolls thanks to the Prime’s active probe and targeting computer.  Again, forcing missed shots on opponents helps make up for the Hellbringer’s thin armor.

The attacker gets no piloting skill rolls. There's only your roll, and if you make it, the modified is there. It was simplified a while back.

Also, I believe the probe only helps if the target is in range of it.

Ghost Targets is almost mandatory for a Loki Prime. If you're close enough for the Probe to help, you deserve the impending death.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 15 February 2021, 18:06:52
Addendum: the F gets tasked with vehicle hunting or perhaps it should wait in reserve until enemy armor is thinned. More equal playground for it :P

Mos def.  The F is good for cleanup and anti-conventional work.

Quote
As for modular armor and IJJs... separately or at the same time?

Sorry, I meant separately.

Here’s my WSIWYG Prime with modular armor.  Used PPC Capacitors to get around the heat limits while still making the dual ER PPCs useful:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/recognition-guide-challenge/msg1624186/#msg1624186 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/recognition-guide-challenge/msg1624186/#msg1624186)

For a jumpy Hellbringer, seven iJJs do reduce the pod space by almost half.  But with 14.5 tons left, there’s enough to mount some serious medium laser and/or SRM spam threat along the lines of the Nova or Arctic Wolf.  I’d go with dual large pulses myself.  Obviously munchy but maybe justified here since the since the jumping Hellbringer needs to constantly jump in combat to offset its thin armor and will have difficulty hitting much while keeping the range open without pulse large laser modifiers otherwise.  Regardless, a jumpy Hellbringer is probably a more useful and survivable configuration than a Prime using TacOps rules to shoot from deep in woods while trying to create ghost targets.

Quote
Other configs for the Hellbringer i'd like see are an official Arrow IV configuration

Yeah, indirect fire is another way to protect a Hellbringer while making it useful:  Arrow IV, aforementioned LRM fire support, or maybe even mech mortars.

Quote
Also, for extra hilarity multiple low-caliber ACs and ATMs with ER munitions for maximal range.

Massed SLRM-5s or ATM-3s could let the Hellbringer keep its distance while bringing enough efficient direct firepower to take down some opponents quickly.

Also, I believe the probe only helps if the target is in range of it.

Unfortunately, that’s right.  If the Hellbringer sat in heavy woods and shot through light woods, it could fire out while the enemy could not fire in.  But within only six hexes, it’s still an iffy proposition against any reasonably mobile opponent.  Any Clan heavy cav design could close that range and terrain.

Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 February 2021, 18:17:29
Unfortunately, that’s right.  If the Hellbringer sat in heavy woods and shot through light woods, it could fire out while the enemy could not fire in.  But within only six hexes, it’s still an iffy proposition against any reasonably mobile opponent.  Any Clan heavy cav design could close that range and terrain.

No, the hex that the mech is in doesn't count toward blocking line of sight.  It only applies to calculating the gunnery check needed to hit them.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 February 2021, 20:16:45
Hellbringer drove me nuts for a long time- it was the only Clan heavy, Omni or Std, that had a LB-20X . . . and the least likely to survive using it.

With that said, I really think the only longer term viable Hellbringer is the A w/ double ERLLs . . . yeah you lose the headcap but you can keep your distance.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 February 2021, 21:34:05
Running a Loki C in a city as a hidden unit can be hilarious.  Not likely to survive, but it has a great chance to hurt someone.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 16 February 2021, 06:50:06
Unfortunately, that’s right.  If the Hellbringer sat in heavy woods and shot through light woods, it could fire out while the enemy could not fire in.  But within only six hexes, it’s still an iffy proposition against any reasonably mobile opponent.  Any Clan heavy cav design could close that range and terrain.
I'm pretty sure the AP optional rule merely reduces the to-hit penalty from woods or smoke by 1, but does not affect determining LOS.
At least that's how i've always interpreted the rule.

EDIT This because the rule is, paraphrased: "if LOS exists to the target, then..."
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 16 February 2021, 10:54:41
Running a Loki C in a city as a hidden unit can be hilarious.  Not likely to survive, but it has a great chance to hurt someone.

From personal experience, I can confirm the same is true of the D as well. It died rapidly, but the Masakari Prime it leaped out at was in line to get into hell, too...
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 16 February 2021, 10:58:48
And at the end of the day, it's not always about whether you survived, but how much pain you inflicted before going down.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 16 February 2021, 12:20:46
And at the end of the day, it's not always about whether you survived, but how much pain you inflicted before going down.

Which perfectly captures the Hellbringer, really. Remember, this isn't the Inner Sphere, the warrior isn't looking to fight for king and country so he can go home to his family. He's fighting to show he's a raging badass, that he's the best of the best, an unstoppable force... or at least that he can go out in a blaze of glory. What better way to show that than a Mech with gobs of weapons and beer-can armor? Yeah, I died, it sucks, whatever- I took a whole lot of the enemy with me, so it's still a win!

From that standpoint, you WANT to get issued a Hellbringer by your Clan. What use is a Turkina or Stormcrow? Everyone knows those are great Mechs, you SHOULD win a battle in those. All you accomplish by winning is not failing. But winning- or even dying in a wild fracas in a Hellbringer? THAT'S how to get remembered.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 16 February 2021, 13:56:49
"He died as he lived: mashing the fire button like he was playing Diablo."
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Wrangler on 16 February 2021, 14:11:23
"He died as he lived: mashing the fire button like he was playing Diablo."
:lol: :toofunny:
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 February 2021, 19:41:40
Which perfectly captures the Hellbringer, really. Remember, this isn't the Inner Sphere, the warrior isn't looking to fight for king and country so he can go home to his family. He's fighting to show he's a raging badass, that he's the best of the best, an unstoppable force... or at least that he can go out in a blaze of glory. What better way to show that than a Mech with gobs of weapons and beer-can armor? Yeah, I died, it sucks, whatever- I took a whole lot of the enemy with me, so it's still a win!

From that standpoint, you WANT to get issued a Hellbringer by your Clan. What use is a Turkina or Stormcrow? Everyone knows those are great Mechs, you SHOULD win a battle in those. All you accomplish by winning is not failing. But winning- or even dying in a wild fracas in a Hellbringer? THAT'S how to get remembered.

Yeah, but it is easier to get remembered if you kill two mechs, and one of them is not your own.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Starfury on 17 February 2021, 02:19:14
I'm become pretty attached to the M configuration of the Loki from the Battle of Tukkayid book.  Making a minor character's design from the Falcon Guards book canon was a nice touch. 

Summary
2 ER Large Lasers LA
Gauss Rifle RA with two tons of ammo in the RA
Streak SRM 6 RT with one ton of ammo
SRM-6 CT with one ton of ammo in the left.
BV 2,200

You get a decent long range platform that's relatively low heat, has a nice amount of SRMs for crit seeking, and it doesn't suffer from the typical low ammo count of FASA 3050 era designs.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 17 February 2021, 02:22:53
TBH, low ammo count is not an issue for the Hellbringer. Its armor won't last long enough anyway, and less ammo may be even better because it reduces chances of ammo explosion or severity of any that happen.
In this regard, the Hellbringer is rather like many introductory level designs.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Wrangler on 17 February 2021, 07:02:08
While i understand the Dark Age was not spectacular time to optain new mechs.  Why put the Hellbringer back into production without some updates physically to it?  We have the Mk2 version the, Hel, but not everyone was making it.   Frankly Hellbringer more death trap or support mech be in back ground like those new configurations they added on.  I still think its unwise to keep building dated machine like that if has tissue paper for armor if someone get's past your front lines, if the pilot gun-ho idiot.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SteelRaven on 17 February 2021, 11:15:03
I still think its unwise to keep building dated machine like that if has tissue paper for armor if someone get's past your front lines, if the pilot gun-ho idiot.

Because Battletech is dumb like that, just look how long the Rifleman RFL-3N lasted and that was with better variants existing.   
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 17 February 2021, 11:18:26
While i understand the Dark Age was not spectacular time to optain new mechs.  Why put the Hellbringer back into production without some updates physically to it?  We have the Mk2 version the, Hel, but not everyone was making it.   

Because then it wouldn't be a Hellbringer, defeating the purpose of bringing it back into production. The Hel *is*the updated model you want, and mechs not being universally available is nothing new.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SteelRaven on 17 February 2021, 11:49:29
The Hel *is*the updated model you want, and mechs not being universally available is nothing new.
The Bounty Hunter has/had a Hel, availability is simply a suggestion in the BTU.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 17 February 2021, 14:54:53
The Bounty Hunter has/had a Hel, availability is simply a suggestion in the BTU.

Gary Stu the Bounty Hunter can have anything ever made . . . I expect him in a Skinwalker after 3150.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: SteelRaven on 17 February 2021, 15:47:42
It was WK selling a new Clix mini, I know but the point stands considering how many Clans fielded the Clan Wolf Timber Wolf. Rule of Cool bypasses any no existing logistics unless plot demands it.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Ruger on 17 February 2021, 16:47:15
Because then it wouldn't be a Hellbringer, defeating the purpose of bringing it back into production. The Hel *is*the updated model you want, and mechs not being universally available is nothing new.

Doesn't have same speed though.

Personally, I still favor one simple change I’ve mentioned before and will not mention again here to the original design. Don’t even really need to change all that much on almost all official configurations to make it work.

Ruger
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Weirdo on 17 February 2021, 16:50:29
No update would ever be identical to the original, otherwise it wouldn't be an update. You want a modern Omni with the speed of a Hellbringer, use the Thortoo. You want the sheer number of guns, use the Lokeetoo. Nature of construction compromises means you don't get both.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 17 February 2021, 16:58:54
Cavalry speeds and Hel warload? So interesting challenge! EDIT Task done. See customs forums.

Anyway, on earlier question why the Hellbringer is still in production, logistics is actually a probable answer in-universe.
The Thunderbolt IIC fluff indicates it owes its existence to the fact Inner Sphere factories were efficient, and bunch of spares were used in building the Thud IIC. Spares for the Hellbringer among others.

The fact is the Hellbringer is simple to build as OmniMechs go. I doubt the Hellbringer is among primary Omnis to produce, but if you got the resources, why not? It can be used on second line forces or as a trainer, or as filler elsewhere, plus it can be traded to the SharkFoxes for better stuff (because the Sharks can sell Hellbringers at profit to clueless Spheroids).
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Ruger on 17 February 2021, 18:29:09
No update would ever be identical to the original, otherwise it wouldn't be an update. You want a modern Omni with the speed of a Hellbringer, use the Thortoo. You want the sheer number of guns, use the Lokeetoo. Nature of construction compromises means you don't get both.

An update with 8 tons of clan Ferro armor (and judicious placement of crits) goes a long way to addressing one of the biggest complaints of the design (poor armor coverage), still make it the least heavily armored of the original heavy Omnis, and only require minor movement of an item or two on a couple configs.

Ruger
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 17 February 2021, 20:12:44
No update would ever be identical to the original, otherwise it wouldn't be an update. You want a modern Omni with the speed of a Hellbringer, use the Thortoo. You want the sheer number of guns, use the Lokeetoo. Nature of construction compromises means you don't get both.

Well, if you want more (almost enough) armor, more pod space and the same speed, that's the Ebon Jaguar. Shame about the crap configs.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 17 February 2021, 21:27:37
Which is why the best Clan 65t mech still is the Arcas.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 17 February 2021, 21:52:08
Which is why the best Clan 65t mech still is the Arcas.

We're getting a new Ebon soon; who knows? (besides the devs and writers, that is)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Starfury on 19 February 2021, 02:48:10
The Hellbringer is in production by CJF in the Dark Age for both cost effectiveness and nostalgia.  Whether another force moves in to take over Olivetti Weaponry on Sudeten is another matter, since CJF shot its bolt and lost on Terra. I'm curious if the Diamond Fox Sea Sharks will take it over, like they did with Twycross.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 February 2021, 12:50:34
We're getting a new Ebon soon; who knows? (besides the devs and writers, that is)

IIRC, the Arcas still has a better armor set up and crit placement.

As for Hellbringer being back in production . . . I would imagine b/c it has a lower lead time to get back in production during the re-arming phase of the Dark Ages.  The things that folks complain about ironically make it easier to get into production if you already have a source for engines, gyros (Hel 3121), and Clan spec weapons- which they did.  No need to add expensive & difficult production of Endo-steel to your current capacity- which basically means building a new zero-g station to make ES.  Or even expanding a current ground facility to build more FF armor.  Basically in 3133 you can expand the current ES & FF to deal with increased operational tempo of your current designs that use those materials AND build the Hellbringer which does not require the special materials.

Additionally in the early 3130s the Falcons would be facing what folks scrambled to find anyway to re-arm themselves.  A Hellbringer is going to rip through armed Agro & ForestryMechs or even the SecurityMechs that their enemies could be grabbing . . . or the vehicles that would be rushed into production.  So putting the Hellbringer back in production, it has a window where it will be superior to bring to the battlefield than what opponents can field . . . until the Lyrans get their production ramped back up to a war footing.

So the question is simple-  Do you want 100 Hellbringers a year or 25 Hel w/limited supplies of replacement FF & ES?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Empyrus on 19 February 2021, 13:01:08
I don't think it is simple this much of this or this much of that question.
Available pilots and budgets determine a lot.
More likely we're looking at 50 Hellbringers and 10 Hels or something like that. A mix of better and less valuable units.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 February 2021, 13:10:00
Well, they were already producing Hels but the point was do you spend your limited resources increasing production of a high cost (talking resources, not BV) unit or spend those resources producing something you can get more of that does not have the high costs?  Further, if you DID need to expand your standard armor production then it would be easier than expanding FF armor production . . . though later such plants could be converted to FF armor as the expansion programs gained steam.  Quantity has a quality all it's own, and early in the Dark Age the Clans were trying to bulk back up to pre-Jihad levels which is why the Falcons in particular finally embraced vehicles for their touman.

Also keep in mind that the Hellbringer has a easier logistical burden than some of the other Heavy mechs the Falcons field because it can use armor & internals salvaged from IS mechs or even captured stockpiles to maintain the design.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: grimlock1 on 19 February 2021, 20:50:10
And at the end of the day, it's not always about whether you survived, but how much pain you inflicted before going down.
That and making sure the pilot has an awesome story to tell when they get to Valhalla!:-)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Hellraiser on 17 March 2021, 12:04:20
I'm become pretty attached to the M configuration of the Loki from the Battle of Tukkayid book.  Making a minor character's design from the Falcon Guards book canon was a nice touch. 

Summary
2 ER Large Lasers LA
Gauss Rifle RA with two tons of ammo in the RA
Streak SRM 6 RT with one ton of ammo
SRM-6 CT with one ton of ammo in the left.
BV 2,200

You get a decent long range platform that's relatively low heat, has a nice amount of SRMs for crit seeking, and it doesn't suffer from the typical low ammo count of FASA 3050 era designs.

Whose mech was this?   Jonna or something?

First I've heard of it but this might be the best thing I've seen since the Horse's Jumping HAG model.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 17 March 2021, 12:17:13
I can't remember her name. She died in an honor duel, giving Aidan a chance to bring in Joanna and diana
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Colt Ward on 17 March 2021, 12:21:31
Whose mech was this?   Jonna or something?

First I've heard of it but this might be the best thing I've seen since the Horse's Jumping HAG model.

It has a RS in Battle of Tukayyid . . . afaik it sounded rather widespread.  It might be one of the few Hellbringers I would run w/o being pushed into a BV crunch- just to use the new KS mini!
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Starfury on 20 March 2021, 08:00:46
The M is based on the config of Star Comander Summer Mandaka from the last book in the Jade Phoenix series.  Summer defeats a Mad Cat Prime/Timber Wolf pilot who she had challenged in a Frial of Grievance using a non standard configuration. It eventually becomes a standard config for the Hellbringer (Loki) afterwards.  It's a mod that takes the parts of the B and the A to make a great direct fire mech.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 20 March 2021, 17:20:00
It’s probably my favorite of all Hellbringer configs, tied with the E. The chassis doesn’t have the armor to deal with return fire.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Hellbringer (Loki) OmniMech
Post by: Greatclub on 20 March 2021, 17:57:17
It doesn't quite displace the C for my personal best, but that's just the chaos the C can bring I love.