MotW: Blackjack

[Arkansas Warrior]

When the BJ-2 came out, those SSRM-2s could have carried infernoes as well, right?  That added some additional capability vs vehicles and infantry that isn’t apparent under the current ruleset.

[Greatclub]

Yep, until the BMR edition.

Problem is, it only has the one ton of ammo, so you had to chose between the ammo types. This is made more painful due to quirks in the old infernos.

[Ursus Maior]

And then, there is the glorious BJ-3. What a monster!

[Marveryn]

blackjack has always been a favorite mine.  I have a lot of weird fav and not cause of there perf in the actually game.  There is always something that make me lean toward it.  The BJ 1 is really a close range mech.  That where the most of its fire power can be found.  The ac are there just to annoy the enemy.  Sort of like your kid brother poking say "I am touching you, I am touching you".  BJ 3 was my personal favorite among the variant cause it retain the meds while adding even more firepower using the double heat for what it design. 

So When I start to play MWO it was the very first mech I try to skill out.  Those early game was a mix of frustration and determination as I started to learn now to play the game right.  It was an interesting experience that didn't ruin love for the mech. 

[Crimson Dawn]

I have always liked mechs that have a bad reputation that I feel is undeserved and the blackjack is a good example (same with something like the dervish).

[JadeHellbringer]

I have always liked mechs that have a bad reputation that I feel is undeserved and the blackjack is a good example (same with something like the dervish).

I hereby summon the Whitworth Mafia.

[Daryk]

The Whitworth isn't a bad 'mech either, but this is the Blackjack thread...  ::)

[Weirdo]

Whitworths have a bad reputation? In what crack house?

[Colt Ward]

In Universe things may have a bad rap . . . but since when has the Dervish been considered bad?

[mbear]

Whitworths have a bad reputation? In what crack house?

In a few places it's been referred to as the Whitworthless.

In Universe things may have a bad rap . . . but since when has the Dervish been considered bad?

I think there were comparisons to primitive or succession wars era Dervishes to later fire-support 'Mechs. *shrug*

[Crimson Dawn]

In Universe things may have a bad rap . . . but since when has the Dervish been considered bad?

In universe they are often referred to as a "poor man's archer" and it seems despite what they do people do not seem to be buying them from what I am seeing on Sarna.  Perhaps it is just me but that makes me feel like people tend to dismiss the design while other designs get looked on more favorably and with more fervor.

[Daryk]

In a few places it's been referred to as the Whitworthless.
*snip*

I had GM in the late '80s/early '90s who used "Whitless".  I never quite saw the reason for his disdain, though...

[Firesprocket]

Whitworths have a bad reputation? In what crack house?

In a few places it's been referred to as the Whitworthless.

I had GM in the late '80s/early '90s who used "Whitless".  I never quite saw the reason for his disdain, though...

It isn't incredibly flashy and certainly isn't going to roll massive damage on anything which is why it tends to be underappreciated.  The Centurion and even the Blackjack in most of its Succession Wars guises are roughly around the same BV.  Jump Jets aside, I think most people prefer the larger punch of an AC-10 or pair of Large Lasers over a pair of LRM-10s.

[JadeHellbringer]

Honestly, in '25 play in particular, they make for good lancemates with Blackjacks. Similar movement profiles, similar methods of primary attack (reach out at a distance and harass targets), with a potent secondary battery to fall back on to cover each other. If you're making a low-speed medium fire support lance, they make for a solid foundation of the force- a Blackjack, two Whitworths, and something with some more close-range muscle, like a Hunchback.

[Greatclub]

It isn't incredibly flashy and certainly isn't going to roll massive damage on anything which is why it tends to be underappreciated.  The Centurion and even the Blackjack in most of its Succession Wars guises are roughly around the same BV.  Jump Jets aside, I think most people prefer the larger punch of an AC-10 or pair of Large Lasers over a pair of LRM-10s.

Shouldn't that be ac/2?

Whitworth might have an edge at range, especially when you consider the possibility of indirect fire, but the blackjack has more armor, heat-sinks, and lasers. I suppose that a whitworth could peel enough armor at range to make up the difference, but even then I'd bet on the BJ.

Actually pretty similar designs.

[Ursus Maior]

Honestly, in '25 play in particular, they make for good lancemates with Blackjacks. Similar movement profiles, similar methods of primary attack (reach out at a distance and harass targets), with a potent secondary battery to fall back on to cover each other. If you're making a low-speed medium fire support lance, they make for a solid foundation of the force- a Blackjack, two Whitworths, and something with some more close-range muscle, like a Hunchback.

Yes, indeed. Also works well with a Hatchetman and an Enforcer added to a Whitworth and a Blackjack. There is a lot of damage in such a lance spread out over all range bands. And almost no issue with minimum range, because the Whitworth and the Blackjack have so many medium lasers and the Hatchetman can shield the lance from one angle.

Not much mobility in that lance, though. So, you need to either go up against a smiliarly immobile adversary or really trust your comrades on your flanks. I would field a lance of 6/9/6 light and medium mechs (Stingers, Wasps, Phoenix Hawks, Javelins etc.), deployed as a pair on each flank. Whatever is in your third lance, this makes for a nice core of a medium-sized cavalry company.

[Daryk]

The third lance I'd add to that would be 5/8/5 (Wolverines, Griffins, etc.).

[Ursus Maior]

That would be my go-to as well. The classic 5/8/x 'Mechs are great, versatile units. Personally, I would go for Griffin, Shadow Hawk, Wolverine and Dervish, but there are other possibilities, too: Quickdraw (for a commander), Starslayer, Lynx, Gladiator or Valkyrie (as a very light option) or Trebuchet 5J would make good additions up to the Clan Invasion era.

[Firesprocket]

Shouldn't that be ac/2?

I was thinking about the large laser version of the Blackjack specifically.  It is roughly 50 more points in cost over the Whitworth. That imo is a negligible drop in the bucket.

[RifleMech]

How does the retcon for the Blackjack 3 and the introduction of the 3X change things? As far as I can tell even with three DHS-P the Blackjack-3X pilot is going to be creme brulee from all the excess heat. It sure wouldn't help the Cappies much. Kind of fits in that way though. It's lackluster performance should keep it on the sidelines. Apparently someone liked it enough to stick production quality DHS on the thing 13 years later to give us the The Blackjack-3. The BJ-3 being introduced later means its available for use against the clans where it should perform pretty well and inspire someone to put in an XL engine, more DHS and swap the standard PPCs for ER PPCs. As far as I know that hasn't happened though.

[Colt Ward]

To be fair, the Blackjack battlemech got mostly sidelined by the Blackjack Omni.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, with the Blackjack Omnimech around, there wasn't much call to perform expensive upgrades on the standard Blackjack, so it mostly just got different weapon options.

[RifleMech]

Okay. I can see that. New Mech means no upgrades for the old. But why would the BJ-3 get made when the BJ-3X would have given such a poor performance?

[Daryk]

Because DHS cover a multitude of sins?  :D

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

When you're making mechs, sometimes you go with the chassis you have rather than the one you want.

Also, sometimes when you get new technology you dust off old ideas and see if you can try them again but make them actually work.  The Succession Wars era had a lot of stupidly hot designs that immediately became more viable once double heatsink were available.

[Greatclub]

When you're making mechs, sometimes you go with the chassis you have rather than the one you want.

Also, sometimes when you get new technology you dust off old ideas and see if you can try them again but make them actually work.  The Succession Wars era had a lot of stupidly hot designs that immediately became more viable once double heatsink were available.

That were viable even after ERing the big guns - looking at most marauders.

[RifleMech]

Okay. I can see that. Thanks :)

[glitterboy2098]

not to mention a lot of designs that were viable even though they ran hot. look at the Marauder (again) and it's 16 SHS dual PPC set up. works just fine in a 2-1-2-1 pattern.

would those with access to the stats care to share them so we can gauge how effective it is from a position of facts? because right now aside from the fact it uses ProtoDHS, i don;t know enough of the details to judge. is it 3 protoDHS plus ten singles, or did it replace three of the 'free' singles with the proto DHS? if the former it would run pretty much as a marauder's fire pattern. if the latter you'd need more of a 2-1-1-2-1-1 pattern and would need to accept a mobility hit every third round. but would still be pretty effective as a fire support unit.

[Greatclub]

assuming the freezers are the same as Sword and Dragon, it looks like it's just the three (of 10) that aren't in the engine. Which would give it 13 heat dissipation; just not enough for 2 PPCs. 

[RifleMech]

The Blackjack 3X has 3 DHS-P, which are the Freezers from Sword & Dragon. It has a total of 13 heat dissipation (7 SHS+3 DHS-Ps). That isn't enough for two PPCs.