Author Topic: 3025 Space Marines  (Read 5882 times)

Lagrange

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3025 Space Marines
« on: 02 January 2023, 22:38:15 »
What are the best space marines before battle armor is a thing?  I'm going to write this out explicitly as it seems to require many source books (Shrapnel 9, TechManual, Tactical Ops, A Time of War, AToW Companion, and errata) to get right.   Does anyone see a flaw here or a way to make more capable non-battle armor space marines?

The ideal weapon seems to be the DWS L5L Laser Sniper Rifle which has a TW range of 15 and does .6 damage with the heavy burst special at a cost of 2500.  It is heavy though, with a base weight of 7.5kg + a battery pack which is at least 3kg for 10 shots.  The use of a laser as the primary weapon in space makes sense as it has zero recoil.  The use of a sniper rifle makes sense if you end up fighting TW units (including battle armor) since it has excellent penetration and range.

The ideal armor seems to be the Marine Combat Suit aToW page 295 which costs 15K and weight 20kg.  This provides +2 to zero-g ops, is sealable, has 18 hours of life support, and provides AV 10 vs. flash.  In TW it is nonencumbering armor with a damage divisor of 2.

Together, these imply that the minimum aToW strength of a marine is 6 so they can carry 39kg without being encumbered.  This is above average but below the maximum baseline strength of 8.

The cost per trooper is 2000*sqrt(2500)*3 = 300K.  For unclear reasons, the cost of armor isn't incorporated.  If you do incorporate it, the cost is 315K.

In a squad, it's desirable to take advantage of a support weapon as well.  A good choice seems to be an automatic grenade launcher which is also nonencumbering and delivers 1.49 damage while weighing 12kg with a cost of 975.  The range is low (so just 1 is preferred), but this seems good in a role-playing sense as you can poke around a corner and crank off a bunch of grenades to wipe out opposition.   The cost per support trooper is 2000*sqrt(975)*3 = 187350 or 202350 if you throw in the cost of the suit.  The minimum strength remains the same.

The ideal squad is as small as possible given that the support weapon does more damage.  Per TM errata, there are a maximum of 5 squads per platoon, so 5 squads of 2 do (0.6+1.49)*5=10.45 rounding to 10 TW damage with the heavy burst modifier and a damage divisor of 2.  The average damage/trooper is 1.  The cost is (300+187.35)*5 = 2436.75K or 2586.75K with the cost of suits thrown in.  The transport tonnage of a compartment is .085*10 ~= 0.85 tons.  This rounds to a nice and simple 1 ton.

The marine points for a boarding action are (1(marine)+0.5(armor with damage divisor 2))*10=15 per platoon.

One caveat: it appears that the damage of the auto grenade launcher may be wrong per discussion below.  If so, the damage is (0.6+0.99)*5=7.95 rounding to 8 TW damage or .8/trooper.

Edits: updated to 5 squads of 6 instead of 4 of 7, updated again to 5 squads of 2.

Daryk

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #1 on: 03 January 2023, 04:15:24 »
Nice work!   :thumbsup:

The only way to do better is to have the Belter Augmentations (Vacuum Resistance and Infantry Package, of course)...  ^-^

Lagrange

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #2 on: 03 January 2023, 07:41:01 »
The only way to do better is to have the Belter Augmentations (Vacuum Resistance and Infantry Package, of course)...  ^-^
Ah, yes. 

I'm trying to stick with something more broadly available in this case.

Daryk

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #3 on: 03 January 2023, 17:38:17 »
Hmmm... I just checked the math, and I think Taurian platoons (3 x Squads of 10) work out slightly better (20.67 per platoon vice 20.36).  Squads come out to 6.89 each vice the 5.09 for the other way.  Honestly, that makes perfect sense...  ^-^

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #4 on: 03 January 2023, 21:28:31 »
The math that way rounds nicely, with 7 points per squad and 21 points for the platoon.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Lagrange

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #5 on: 03 January 2023, 21:44:27 »
The Taurian platoons seem plausibly useful.  You get a slight decline in damage/trooper from .71 to .7 but an increase in marine points/ton.

There's something I don't know how to interpret.  The errata for TM says:
Code: [Select]
Affiliation and Infantry Deployment (p. 146)
At the end of the second paragraph insert the following
Note that, regardless of affiliation, a maximum of 5 squads is allowed per platoon or sub-platoon.
The preceding paragraph talks about choosing your affiliation to specify your platoon organization.  Does this imply that you are allowed to create a new platoon organization with 5 squads of 6?  ("short comstar"?)

Another thing: the automatic grenade launcher appears to be confused between TM, aToW, and the conversion rules in aToW companion.   In TM, it does 1.49 damage.  In aToW it does class-B ordnance for which HE (the best case) seems to do 5X/8A.  Using the conversion rules, this seems to gives 5/4 * 8*(3.5+1(burst)+1(splash))/50=1.1.   To get 1.49, you need something like 6X/9A ammo.  This doesn't match Class C HE which is 6X/10A.  What is the miscalculation?

Daryk

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #6 on: 04 January 2023, 04:27:54 »
Ordnance using weapons have to average the available HE/Anti-Vehicle/Frag damage.  That's in the text of the conversion rules in the Companion.

As for squad sizes, I do it all the time.  5 x 6 works out pretty well in my book, though I usually only do that for mercs.

Lagrange

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #7 on: 04 January 2023, 11:00:21 »
Ordnance using weapons have to average the available HE/Anti-Vehicle/Frag damage.  That's in the text of the conversion rules in the Companion.
There is no Anti-vehicle class B ordnance, so it's just an average of HE and Frag (=anti-personnel).   Average AP=(5+3)/2=4  Average BD =(8+10)/2=9.   Using these values, the formula is:
Penetration = 4/4=1
Damage = 9*(3.5+1(burst)+1(splash))=49.5
Reload factor = 1
TW damage = 1*49.5/50*1=0.99 

That's way below 1.49.  What am I doing wrong?
As for squad sizes, I do it all the time.  5 x 6 works out pretty well in my book, though I usually only do that for mercs.
That seems like a winner.  Damage for a squad is 4.49 so the total damage of the platoon would be 22.45 ~= 22.

monbvol

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #8 on: 04 January 2023, 13:23:58 »
Yeah I seem to be missing something as well as I'm getting the same 0.99.

If I try it with an AP of 6 it does work out to 1.485(which would round to 1.49) so I do wonder if someone applied the +2 AP for Infernos somewhere.

Daryk

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #9 on: 04 January 2023, 18:16:28 »
Huh.  My current spreadsheet agrees with both of you with 0.99 being correct, and now I'm wondering why I never caught that before.  I note that an AP two higher (6) with 9 BD gets you 1.49.  Perhaps a stat changed in a reprint somewhere that I missed? ???

Lagrange

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #10 on: 04 January 2023, 19:17:03 »
Perhaps this should be reported somewhere?

Daryk

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #11 on: 04 January 2023, 19:41:21 »
I've poked TPTB a little much lately... perhaps one of you gentlemen could be prevailed upon to do so? ???

Lagrange

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #12 on: 04 January 2023, 19:50:28 »
I've poked TPTB a little much lately... perhaps one of you gentlemen could be prevailed upon to do so? ???
Happy to, but which forum exactly?

Daryk

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #13 on: 04 January 2023, 19:54:17 »
I would recommend the Tech Manual Rules Question forum, or the Tech Manual Errata Thread.  Thanks!  :thumbsup:

Lagrange

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #14 on: 04 January 2023, 20:38:42 »
I would recommend the Tech Manual Rules Question forum, or the Tech Manual Errata Thread.  Thanks!  :thumbsup:
Done.

Daryk

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #15 on: 04 January 2023, 21:00:08 »
Awesome, thanks!  :thumbsup:

Lagrange

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #16 on: 09 January 2023, 16:55:29 »
There's another tweak here which seems potentially powerful.  Instead of having a platoon with 30 marines consisting of 5 squads of 6 marines, it seems you could have 3 platoons with 5 squads of 2 marines.  This has several effects:
  • The average damage per platoon declines to (.6+1.49)*5 ~=10 instead of 22 (or (.6+0.99)*5 ~=8 instead of 20 with a rules update).
  • The average damage per trooper grows to 1 (over .733) or .8 (over .667) if the rules are fixed.
  • The average cost per trooper declines as autogrenade launchers are cheaper than laser sniper rifles.
  • The natural transport size declines to 1 ton.
For TW play, you trade poor stacking for higher damage per trooper.  In a boarding action, it doesn't matter.  In AToW scale play, perhaps it's a bit more manageable with smaller units.

Am I missing anything?  I'm actually inclined to go for it, as I'm imagining marines as (a) having a small TW battlefield role (b) the range of the sniper rifle helps alleviate issues with stacking (c) the average damage/trooper increase is attractive.

Daryk

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #17 on: 09 January 2023, 19:36:05 »
If you want to simplify your logistics and maximize your cheese, just use two Mausers per "Squad" (of two, of course: 1 Secondary for damage, 1 Primary for Heavy Burst)...  :D

Lagrange

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #18 on: 09 January 2023, 20:31:14 »
If you want to simplify your logistics and maximize your cheese, just use two Mausers per "Squad" (of two, of course: 1 Secondary for damage, 1 Primary for Heavy Burst)...  :D
I'm liking the laser sniper rifle + grenade launch combo.  The grenade launcher guy can function as a spotter if the sniper is doing long range shots and in close quarters combat the grenade launcher guy can focus on room clearance while the sniper focuses on shooting through bulkheads to take out the high value targets.  It's something like the Mauser960 except half the price, twice the range, and new tactics available.

I updated to the small platoons.

Daryk

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Re: 3025 Space Marines
« Reply #19 on: 09 January 2023, 20:39:17 »
I've always figured it was the sniper providing exact range and windage to the Grenade Launcher to make them reach...  ^-^