Where Are The People Movers?

[SCC]

So doing some campaign thinking and I thought that it might be easier/cheaper to get a couple of civilian DropShips, one cargo and one passenger, to move my force around. The problem with this is rather simple: There don't seem to be any large-scale passenger carrying DropShips. Sure there's the Monarch and Princess, but their neither what I would call common nor what I imagine a merc unit would use to move it's people around.

So what should I do? The easiest answer would seem to be use the Units and Personnel in Cargo Bays rules, which involves dividing total personal by 28 and then multiplying by 5 to figure out how many tons the bays would occupy and then subtracting that from cargo space, possibly making this a permanent modification.

[Daryk]

Seekers are kind of expensive, but might have the capacity you need.  Also, instead of people in cargo bays, I (and others) have figured you can install "Bay" quality quarters in conex boxes in the cargo bay (along with additional water and air recycling, also in conex boxes).  It's less uncomfortable, and burns through less in the way of consumables.

[The_Caveman]

A single converted Mule could haul 1700 people in Steerage-grade quarters. Just how many personnel do you need to move?

Assuming a tail:tooth ratio of about 10:1 you could support a reinforced 'Mech regiment with one such vessel and still have room for bulk cargo. Or have three of them hanging from a single Invader carrying 500 people each and 6000 tons of cargo.

For military purposes I figure that's what most transport ships look like: permanently or temporarily converted cargo ships.

[SCC]

Seekers are kind of expensive, but might have the capacity you need.  Also, instead of people in cargo bays, I (and others) have figured you can install "Bay" quality quarters in conex boxes in the cargo bay (along with additional water and air recycling, also in conex boxes).  It's less uncomfortable, and burns through less in the way of consumables.

The rules I mentioned above pretty much spell out that turn cargo bays into infantry bays with 0 problems, which is why I picked them.

A single converted Mule could haul 1700 people in Steerage-grade quarters. Just how many personnel do you need to move?

Assuming a tail:tooth ratio of about 10:1 you could support a reinforced 'Mech regiment with one such vessel and still have room for bulk cargo. Or have three of them hanging from a single Invader carrying 500 people each and 6000 tons of cargo.

For military purposes I figure that's what most transport ships look like: permanently or temporarily converted cargo ships.

It't not just personnel, this is going to be the sole DS for my entire force, if I score it.

[Daryk]

The section on personnel in cargo bays talks about three different levels of accommodations, and each has its own rate of consumable consumption.  Infantry bays are the middle level.

[Jellico]

It't not just personnel, this is going to be the sole DS for my entire force, if I score it.

The advantage of the military haulers is the repair bay and combat drops.

In a permissive environment it is just a matter on unloading times.

[SCC]

There are two problems with using military DS:
1) Little to no cargo space and generally no ability to carry passengers.
2) With the way CO handles force ratings unless we're prepared to accept an unusually high level of modification of DS things get interesting.

To deal with the lack of bays I was looking at purchasing several Wayland Mobile Bases, and/or designing a support vehicle to lug around some cubicles.

[The_Caveman]

Well again, how many people are we talking about moving? Without knowing the size of your force this is a "how long is a piece of string" problem.

[idea weenie]

The rules I mentioned above pretty much spell out that turn cargo bays into infantry bays with 0 problems, which is why I picked them.
It't not just personnel, this is going to be the sole DS for my entire force, if I score it.

Just remember it is a Mule, not a combat Dropship.  It will have less acceleration and armor than a Leopard Dropship, and any Mech Bays will either be dropping Mechs off only when grounded, or you have to install doors for mechs to deploy from.  ASF bays similarly will need to use cranes to deploy and recover ASF.

I recommend mainly Garrison/cadre contracts, so you don't have to worry about your only (weak/slow) ride being shot down.

If you can upgrade it over time to have better protection that is good, though a dedicated combat Dropship would be better.

[snewsom2997]

I would maybe look at a Condor (Always in Production), or its Cargo variant the Stork (Produced After the Jihad). If using a Condor strip out the Vehicle an Infantry Bays and replace with 1st and 2nd Class Passenger Berths. I would rather have 2-3 Condors transporting my tail instead of a single Mule. Unless transporting AStechs or Grunt Infantry I would stay away from steerage passenger berths. If you want to make some side money on your Contract there is also a Condor Variant called the Dove (Produced Since the SW) which is a Hospitalship. For garrison Contracts in the Outback or Periphery having a large medical staff to provide healthcare for locals builds some nice bridges. While on contract you can also lease intra system, and intra planetary transport. Loads of Livestock, water/ice, ores, timber, etc. If you have your own jumpship, you can make that interplanetary transport. 

Plus with the Condor Family of Dropships you will have interchangeable parts, and it will reduce the types of spare parts you would have to carry, easier to source parts too, Condors are common droppers. The Dropship is produced by the Combine and the FW.

[truetanker]

Ugh... so many bad choices...

WHY?

Why so many " strip this " or " strip that "?

Ugh... headaches... please shoot me now...

List of Combat dropships with Infantry carrying capacity.

Drost IIA ~ 2 bays of 5 Platoons each... ( A platoon can be 30 or down ) That's 300 people!
Czar ~ 2 bays of 18 Platoons each... ( Hope you can add... ) That's 1,080... so she's old, so what?
Vulture ~ A bay of 6 Platoons... But... but... it's a Primitive. (whiney sniffle) So, their very effective! Better cause you don't expect 3025 era weapons on an ancient unit!

TT
 :thumbsup:

[Talen5000]

So doing some campaign thinking and I thought that it might be easier/cheaper to get a couple of civilian DropShips, one cargo and one passenger, to move my force around. The problem with this is rather simple: There don't seem to be any large-scale passenger carrying DropShips. Sure there's the Monarch and Princess, but their neither what I would call common nor what I imagine a merc unit would use to move it's people around.

So what should I do? The easiest answer would seem to be use the Units and Personnel in Cargo Bays rules, which involves dividing total personal by 28 and then multiplying by 5 to figure out how many tons the bays would occupy and then subtracting that from cargo space, possibly making this a permanent modification.

Where are they? Largely non existent. Interstellar travel is expensive and dangerous and doesn't really offer a lot that you cannot find on your home world or, failing that, in system.

Having said that, if you want to move lots of people it can be done. There are colonisation ships after all and they have to move a few thousand people at a time. The Bears had the Leviathans - but I still think they had to have simply installed 250,000 cryo pods on that thing.

In the end, it comes down to how many people do you have to move? Over what distance? What length of time?To what degree of comfort? And do you have the time needed to convert whatever DropShips you have - not so much in the way of putting in walls and a bed, but installing life support and facilities to sustain the number of people you have to transport.

And no - cryo stasis isn't an option for the IS.

Your best bet is probably hiring out extra liners and dividing existing cabin space and cargo space, and install some portable life support equipment.

[Dave Talley]

i advise a union for the mechs and fighters,
and the seeker for all else, my favorite DS
use the container quarters as mentioned above,
the nice part is if its a long term contract they can haul the
containers out and reconnect them in a warehouse or hangar
for a base

[The_Caveman]

List of Combat dropships with Infantry carrying capacity.

Drost IIA ~ 2 bays of 5 Platoons each... ( A platoon can be 30 or down ) That's 300 people!
Czar ~ 2 bays of 18 Platoons each... ( Hope you can add... ) That's 1,080... so she's old, so what?
Vulture ~ A bay of 6 Platoons... But... but... it's a Primitive. (whiney sniffle) So, their very effective! Better cause you don't expect 3025 era weapons on an ancient unit!

Those are all bad choices for a mercenary unit, where "home" and "transportation" are very likely to be the same thing. Infantry bays are bare-minimum life support and living space. You get a sleeping rack and a footlocker and air that won't kill you but smells like 300 other dudes. No recreation or training facilities, no dining facilities, no office space for logistics personnel, and even shower and toilet facilities are going to be the bare minimum to prevent disease and no more. JumpShip crews aren't going to be happy with you either when 300 mercs start demanding time on their grav deck.

If you expect people to live aboard-ship for months at a time (which is very likely the case when your merc outfit is getting shipped halfway across the IS for a contract) without a mutiny brewing, you need to provide at least steerage quarters.

This thread pops up every few months. The consensus is that infantry bays are the minimum requirement to keep people aboard long-term without killing them, they're not a solution to base housing.

You can fit steerage quarters for two people in a 10-ton shipping container. That's likely the most common solution, and it's still rather spartan. You're talking about two people sharing a 320 sq ft studio apartment. Infantry bays would put 56 people in that same space.

[SCC]

This thread pops up every few months. The consensus is that infantry bays are the minimum requirement to keep people aboard long-term without killing them, they're not a solution to base housing.

I think this happens not only because there aren't any cannon people movers, but also because DS designs tend to be on the small end of the scale (A Leopard can move all of 900 people with it's bays converted to quarters). The fact that SL tech doesn't increase the number of people you can cram into a given space likely doesn't help, and is also somewhat weird then you think about it.

[The_Caveman]

Given that some of that tonnage is going to be furniture, water for bathing, breathable air and spare gas for pressurization, and other stuff that doesn't really benefit from advancing technology, I doubt that SL tech makes any real improvements on the density of people you can pack into the ship. More likely it improves their quality of life. SL-era steerage quarters are probably more like 3025 second-class (in amenities, not space) and so on.

[Colt Ward]

The other thing to think of . . . is this is a wargame.  I do not remember seeing the troop transport conversion of the QE or other liners listed in Jane's Fighting Ships.  So just like we were originally told 'there are other cargo DS out there' and 'other variants of the Union exist carrying all sorts of X, Y & Z' we should also have additional civilian shipping present (remember, the biggest bottleneck was always JS collars since late Succession Wars).  We get some of the first answer (other cargo DS) with the fluff on the DroST talking about how it was cloned across the Inner Sphere and Periphery by other producers . . . so you may have a 'Dragonfly' class Dropship built out in the Concordat by VMI's plant on Illiushin, but its a clone/license of the DroST and they can interchange parts.  We did get the Jumbo along with other designs, and I would take the Jumbo every time over the Mule for three simple reasons- 1) thicker armor, 2) small craft bays, 3) more cargo space.

[Daryk]

*snip*
You can fit steerage quarters for two people in a 10-ton shipping container. That's likely the most common solution, and it's still rather spartan. You're talking about two people sharing a 320 sq ft studio apartment. Infantry bays would put 56 people in that same space.
*snip*

60, actually.  The maximum size of a platoon is 30, so two platoons of Foot Infantry is 60.  Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying it's comfortable.

[Colt Ward]

60, actually.  The maximum size of a platoon is 30, so two platoons of Foot Infantry is 60.  Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying it's comfortable.

It could be plenty comfortable . . . b/c personal space would be measured by volume, which we do not use for AT2.

[Hellraiser]

So doing some campaign thinking and I thought that it might be easier/cheaper to get a couple of civilian DropShips, one cargo and one passenger, to move my force around. The problem with this is rather simple: There don't seem to be any large-scale passenger carrying DropShips. Sure there's the Monarch and Princess, but their neither what I would call common nor what I imagine a merc unit would use to move it's people around.

So what should I do? The easiest answer would seem to be use the Units and Personnel in Cargo Bays rules, which involves dividing total personal by 28 and then multiplying by 5 to figure out how many tons the bays would occupy and then subtracting that from cargo space, possibly making this a permanent modification.

1.  How large is the unit.

2.  This is just for World to World transport right?   Your not living out of it right?    (That was mentioned above as possible but I think its a bad idea so clarifying.)

[Daryk]

It could be plenty comfortable . . . b/c personal space would be measured by volume, which we do not use for AT2.

True, but having done deck plans based on the canon dimensions of DropShips, I'm inclined toward about 8 per TEU (double stacked racks) to be even close to "comfortable".  You could make that 12 (triple stacked racks), but I don't know how "comfortable" that would be.  Submarine crews have long chosen sleeping in the torpedo room (a space with an active watch stander) to hot racking (time sharing bunks).  The most cramped I've personally experienced was racks stacked four high on a WWII era minesweeper, and the communal head still had a trough urinal.  My teenage self didn't think it was too bad, but that was a pretty low bar.

[Robroy]

True, but having done deck plans based on the canon dimensions of DropShips, I'm inclined toward about 8 per TEU (double stacked racks) to be even close to "comfortable".  You could make that 12 (triple stacked racks), but I don't know how "comfortable" that would be.  Submarine crews have long chosen sleeping in the torpedo room (a space with an active watch stander) to hot racking (time sharing bunks).  The most cramped I've personally experienced was racks stacked four high on a WWII era minesweeper, and the communal head still had a trough urinal.  My teenage self didn't think it was too bad, but that was a pretty low bar.

I did a six month cruise in a 120 man bearth with triple stacked bunks. I did not think it to bad, but I also had 12-16 hour work days to. I guess it is also depends on other things to do. Things to keep everyone occupied.

[Daryk]

The Air Department on all the carriers I served aboard seemed very keen to work all their Sailors as hard as possible.  The theory seemed to be if they allowed any spare energy to their crew, there would be trouble... This included arranging chow to be served where the flight deck folks could get to it without going down to the mess decks...

[The_Caveman]

The Air Department on all the carriers I served aboard seemed very keen to work all their Sailors as hard as possible.  The theory seemed to be if they allowed any spare energy to their crew, there would be trouble... This included arranging chow to be served where the flight deck folks could get to it without going down to the mess decks...

And this on a vessel where it's at least technically possible to go outside and get some fresh air once or twice a day. Submariners do without it, of course, but their crews are smaller than surface ships of the same size and I have to imagine more or less hand-picked for their ability to operate in those conditions.

What do you do with 300 mercs who are stuck with a refrigerator's worth of personal space for 90 days at a time? Even with the sim pods running 24/7 and everyone doing shifts in the 'Mech bay, that's a lot of thumb-twiddling or monotonous busywork. Which, to be fair, is what I'm told military life is mainly about, but BTU mercs are also generally the kind of people who weren't cut out for the regular army. I foresee a morale crisis.

[Daryk]

Yes, submarine crews are hand picked, and small enough that you're either on watch, doing maintenance, eating or sleeping for the vast majority of your time.

[Colt Ward]

What do you do with 300 mercs who are stuck with a refrigerator's worth of personal space for 90 days at a time? Even with the sim pods running 24/7 and everyone doing shifts in the 'Mech bay, that's a lot of thumb-twiddling or monotonous busywork. Which, to be fair, is what I'm told military life is mainly about, but BTU mercs are also generally the kind of people who weren't cut out for the regular army. I foresee a morale crisis.

Which is where you get some hilarious random events in HBS- like bowling down the hallways, tinkering with a weapon, or one last night was creating a catapult out of pasta.

[Sartris]

people in the BTU turn into meat logs onboard spaceships. You just dump them into a mule like minnows in a tank. The strat ops rules just force you to feed them now  :D

[The_Caveman]

people in the BTU turn into meat logs onboard spaceships. You just dump them into a mule like minnows in a tank. The strat ops rules just force you to feed them now  :D

You know.... with the Clanners' taboo about aging, you'd think they'd looooove them some cryo-pods. Any time you're on a long space voyage you popsicle up and keep those dreaded solahma years a little further away.

Which is where you get some hilarious random events in HBS- like bowling down the hallways, tinkering with a weapon, or one last night was creating a catapult out of pasta.

Of course the Argo is a luxury liner compared to 300 dudes stuffed into the belly of a DroST. Given the size of the ship relative to the size of the crew, the cabins must seem palatial to anyone who's lived aboard a Leopard for a few years.

[Colt Ward]

Pretty sure Cray trotted out all the numbers and the DS all have LOTS of volume . . . in some cases too much really.  As for the Argo?  Well you have those hab pods, but I usually do not get the 3rd one refurb'd nor do I get the 3rd set of 6 mech cubicles done.  Which I grant is b/c I am cheap and exploiting some things in the game I would not in regular BTU- I can only drop 4 mechs, maybe have 4 in a row twice for a total of 8, so why do I need 18 mechs on standby?  Heck, first time through the campaign I only kept 10 up in the cubicles.

But for RP in the wider BTU?  I go back to modern personnel management and one of the things I read in old WEG's Star Wars Pirate & Privateers.  The main privateer in that discusses crew management with a simple agreement that he heats his ship at a higher temperature than the military standard of the Alliance or Empire, and yes he fed his crew better with more fresh food than was typical in military or commercial ships.  Unlike the military, his crew were volunteers who signed up and after a cruise if they did not like the conditions they could have gone elsewhere.  Better living conditions and food, while having upfront costs paid off in the long run by keeping the crew happy & eager which meant they did not have turnover so he was able to keep his crew as they gained experience.  Aside from the hot/cold being reversed- I think William Keith/Ian Douglas Warstrider's normal space heat build up is more accurate for operating ships- it all to me makes sense.  Even in the military you can see better commanders make efforts to get their troops better food- either hotter, fresher, or supplemented- when its possible.  Making sure the mess section has hot fresh coffee and cold beverages for midnight watches is a good sign compared to walking in the CQ to find old/cold stale coffee in a pot left over from the working day.  For field exercises, getting ice when possible out to as many vehicles & crews.  Heck, I heard about one battery on base that had something happen to their mess section so the CO & 1SG ordered pizza to be delivered . . . they drove up to the delivery car which had driven out to a empty field to meet the hummer.

So for me, part of my RP'ing as the commander of a merc unit is to provide better living conditions than they might get as part of the regular forces.  For example, squad sized rooms rather than platoon bays in long term garrison.  Shipping a container that is for R&R- work out equipment (some of which will can be used in micro-g), projector (which can be used in the mech bay on a hatch) which is also useful for briefings, some sports equipment, climbing gear, and others.

Then again, they have two dropships- a Fortress and a Mule convert.  The Mule is for support & follow-on (more infantry & armor) forces so it has more quality of life facilities than the Fortress which is a attack ship.

I honestly think when they wrote some of the troop transport fluff, they were watching some of the WWII Pacific movies where the troops were stacked with barely any space . . . and no one thought out the calculations Cray trotted out to project their density for volume.

[idea weenie]

I think this happens not only because there aren't any cannon people movers, but also because DS designs tend to be on the small end of the scale (A Leopard can move all of 900 people with it's bays converted to quarters). The fact that SL tech doesn't increase the number of people you can cram into a given space likely doesn't help, and is also somewhat weird then you think about it.

How does that work?   A Leopard is 1900 tons, and the smallest Quarters is 5 tons.  Stripping out all 4 Mech bays and both ASF Bays means you have 900 tons available, meaning you can carry 180 people.  But even then I don't see any mention of cargo space, and you would use .9 tons of Supply every day to keep people alive.


For using bays:
5 tons for an Infantry Bay, providing transport capacity of 30 people, or 6 people per ton.  I recommend 40 days of Food/oxygen per person, so that is ~2 tons per person.  Add another quarter ton for their luggage.  So that is ~2.42 tons per person, rounding up to 2.5 to make the math easy and even allow for dedicated crew members (i.e. stewards).  I wonder if there is a bilge/recycling setup on that Dropship with a few Spare Steerage Quarters whose only job is to recycle the wastes slowly but steadily.  The Dropship's own internal supplies would get replenished this way, and any downtime while in port will have the Dropship processing wastes this way to clean out its tanks, and offloading to the local sewage system if practical.

(Leopard would be able to carry 360 people like this)

You might even have variants of Bays similar to modern air liners or cruise ships.  The basic people get 1/6 of a ton, business might get 1/3 of a ton, and the nobility might get a full ton (and charged appropriately).  These reflect greater comfort/amenities/extra crew assigned to these people.


For using Quarters:
Off-hand, you budget 5.5 tons per person you want to transport, using RAW.  The 5 tons is for the Steerage Quarters, and the quarter ton is for the 50 days of food/oxygen to keep them alive.  The remaining .25 tons is for their cargo (luggage, and other stuff they need shipped).  If the passengers need less cargo for their luggage, you can use the freed up cargo space for other paying freight.

(Leopard would be able to carry 163 people like this)

(At 108 days, the bays mass 1/6 of a ton and need 5.4 tons of Food/Oxygen.  Quarters mass 5 tons and need .54 tons of Food/Oxygen.  This is where Quarters finally are better than Bays.)

[SCC]

Pretty sure Cray trotted out all the numbers and the DS all have LOTS of volume . . . in some cases too much really.  As for the Argo?  Well you have those hab pods, but I usually do not get the 3rd one refurb'd nor do I get the 3rd set of 6 mech cubicles done.  Which I grant is b/c I am cheap and exploiting some things in the game I would not in regular BTU- I can only drop 4 mechs, maybe have 4 in a row twice for a total of 8, so why do I need 18 mechs on standby?  Heck, first time through the campaign I only kept 10 up in the cubicles.

This is where my comment about how SL tech should decrease the amount tonnage each person consumes, because where else is all that weight going but life support?

How does that work?   A Leopard is 1900 tons, and the smallest Quarters is 5 tons.  Stripping out all 4 Mech bays and both ASF Bays means you have 900 tons available, meaning you can carry 180 people.  But even then I don't see any mention of cargo space, and you would use .9 tons of Supply every day to keep people alive.

I mucked up my math.

[The_Caveman]

This is where my comment about how SL tech should decrease the amount tonnage each person consumes, because where else is all that weight going but life support?

Fancy zero-g toilets. Furniture. Greywater stores. Lighting. A single person's share of the weight of recreational facilities, dining facilities, office space, computer equipment. Storage for the passenger's baggage. All the stuff that isn't bare flight hardware. The more weight per person you spend on quarters, the more of all that stuff an individual has access to. Maybe the Star League had endo-steel beds and extra-light ovens, but the single heaviest chunk of all that stuff is going to be the water, and without it you are taking sponge baths and wiping your hands with sanitizer gel after using the head.

I honestly think when they wrote some of the troop transport fluff, they were watching some of the WWII Pacific movies where the troops were stacked with barely any space . . . and no one thought out the calculations Cray trotted out to project their density for volume.

DropShips are big, but they are also packed full of stuff that takes up space. Engines, fuel tanks, weapons, structure. They're not big empty balloons. Speaking of big, empty balloons, look at pictures of the crew facilities onboard military airships pre-WW2. There was technically a huge amount of volume available but very little of it was allocated to the crew.

And just because there is volume doesn't mean you can put people in it--we build rectangular houses instead of circular ones for a reason.

[Daryk]

The actual problem here is that life support only costs C-Bills, not tons.  I'm not sure of the logic behind that game design decision, but there it is.

[Colt Ward]

DropShips are big, but they are also packed full of stuff that takes up space. Engines, fuel tanks, weapons, structure. They're not big empty balloons. Speaking of big, empty balloons, look at pictures of the crew facilities onboard military airships pre-WW2. There was technically a huge amount of volume available but very little of it was allocated to the crew.

And just because there is volume doesn't mean you can put people in it--we build rectangular houses instead of circular ones for a reason.

You are comparing the volume of a gas to the volume of a solid, the two are not comparable in such a manner.  In addition, the gas provided lift while we get super efficient fusion rockets that are going to weigh more but take up less volume to provide the 'work.'

[SCC]

Fancy zero-g toilets. Furniture. Greywater stores. Lighting. A single person's share of the weight of recreational facilities, dining facilities, office space, computer equipment. Storage for the passenger's baggage. All the stuff that isn't bare flight hardware. The more weight per person you spend on quarters, the more of all that stuff an individual has access to. Maybe the Star League had endo-steel beds and extra-light ovens, but the single heaviest chunk of all that stuff is going to be the water, and without it you are taking sponge baths and wiping your hands with sanitizer gel after using the head.

Zero-g toilets aren't fancy, they're a pump with at most two hoses, probably weigh no more then a vacuum cleaner in BT. Furniture isn't going to be much either, a fold down bed, a table and maybe two chairs. Greywater stores are going to be negligible, because recycling. Lighting is again negligible. Recreational facilities aren't going to be much in steerage quarters (Bring plenty of books on your noteputer!). Any smart commander would dine is crew in shifts or the dining hall is the recreational space. Baggage probably goes in quarters and likely isn't that much to begin with.

[truetanker]

I see a carry-on Milspec duffel bag, probably carrying two or three sets of multi universal ex-military clothes from past units, bits and pieces of personal equipment, also from their ex-units as keepsakes. Some very common ' downtime ' clothing, a messkit, their current uniform and combat equipment, personal toiletries and a few trinkets...

Standard bunk, which might contain a slim storage locker in one corner, a tri-vid TV built in, speaker comm and an overhead lightbar. The head might be a shower stall with built in toilet seat in a corner, built in mirror opposite wall and contains suction hoses and hand / foot ledges for zero-g washings.

Most likely have a dedicated washing room for clothes, and a zero-g rated gym, flex-straps, a " rodent " wheel with built in centerline handlebar for hand over hand exercises. Note your strapped down and work your upper body by pulling yourself using your hands, or your arms are holding you down while you jog in place... currently NASA is looking into these as a means to work both upper and lower bodies in space.

Of course if you got gravity, works the same...

TT

[SCC]

For a budget passenger liner or a military I'd expect that the exercise equipment would be in a communal area and it's two or four people to a single room and wash room for military transports

[The_Caveman]

You are comparing the volume of a gas to the volume of a solid, the two are not comparable in such a manner.  In addition, the gas provided lift while we get super efficient fusion rockets that are going to weigh more but take up less volume to provide the 'work.'

You're missing my point. I'm not saying that DropShips are subject to the same design constraints as 20th century airships. I'm saying that just because there is volume, that doesn't automatically mean you can use it for crew space because there are other design constraints to deal with. It's not Santa's sack, you can't just throw stuff in there and expect it all to fit as an amorphous blob. There is going to be wasted space, probably a whole lot of it.

[Colt Ward]

Sure, which is why I mentioned the density calculations that cray did years ago which did indicate between a couple of classes of DS that they had a lot of empty space inside.  I have been in several different classes of warships, I know in places you have open space for service but I know you also have some compartments that are against the hull & shaped b/c of it.

[Talen5000]

I think this happens not only because there aren't any cannon people movers, but also because DS designs tend to be on the small end of the scale (A Leopard can move all of 900 people with it's bays converted to quarters). The fact that SL tech doesn't increase the number of people you can cram into a given space likely doesn't help, and is also somewhat weird then you think about it.

Again....the issue is not that people movers cannot exist.

Its that, given the universe, they don't need to. Indeed, it would be somewhat surprising if they did.

But the answer to your question still depends on i formation you haven't privided.

How large is your merc group  that it requires a people hauler?
When does your campaign take place? The comment about Waylands makes me suspect Reunification War, but mercs weren't especially common then. Or perhaps the SL era?
What do you expect this DropShip to do? Is it to serve as a mobile base? A home? Is it to be merely a transport? Or a permanent residence? Are you moving techs, or dependents?

Because I can't think of why you may be having trouble unless you are moving a lot of dependents as technicians  and support staff get counted as part of the bay infrastructure. It might not be comfortable, but that 1 bay provides cover for 5 or 6 people.

And if you are moving dependents with your unit, they should be your DropShip crew and your support and technical staff.

So....exactly how large is your unit, how far do you expect them to travel and in what degree of comfort? Because if it is just a trip between contracts then a small life pod, a prefab with built in life support, should cover any shortfall, albeit at the expense of cargo

[Colt Ward]

 . . . huh?  Its canon that we have multiple armor regiments for each mech regiment, and multiple infantry regiments for each armor regiment- both in the regulars and mercs.  Battlemechs are great for taking ground, but they are not going to hold it- you need the infantry for that sort of thing.  If armor regiments have their vehicles (as in the movement of a RCT) loaded as cargo, then those crews are going to have to be kept somewhere while they are in transit and that is not just for garrison movements since armor regiments tagged as follow on forces for a RCT assault would ship as cargo with vehicle combat transports being a finite supply.

We also have offensives that have movement of large conventional forces and are not told that the attacker had problems moving large amounts of infantry- Reunification War, Kerensky's campaign against Aramis (transit from TC to RWR would be how long?), the Bears used Leviathans to support their JS fleet to bring their lower castes to the IS (6 months+), 2SL's TF Serpent trip to Huntress, and a few others.

We should have a DS fitted as a infantry battalion transport, hauling 300 troopers in steerage . . . so 1500t which is a drop in the bucket for many economical DS (IE, cargo to drop collar ratio).  So . . . battalion of infantry, two small craft cubicles (able to land them all in 1 wave), and cargo . . . could easily be done in a Union.  The DroST, except for using bays instead of quarters, is really set up as a ideal motorized/mechanized infantry battalion (3 infantry companies w/HQ platoon) w/2200t for loading the APCs and supplies. For dropcollar & naval crew efficiency a infantry regiment carrier would be better.

[SCC]

Colt, BT uses the regimental system, so you'd be wanting to move troops around in regimental sized units, or about a thousand men.

[Colt Ward]

How many mech regimental carriers are common?  how many armor regimental carriers?  I acknowledged the infantry regiment transport would be superior from a efficiency standpoint but like using even battalion mech carriers (see Overlord) its a lot of assets in a egg that can get popped.

[Hellraiser]

We should have a DS fitted as a infantry battalion transport,

Looks over at the Condor.....   

You really don't need them set up in Steerage.  No one is traveling that far with those #'s of troops.

They move to a staging world on the border if its not already their own world.  And then they move across the border a jump or 2.

No one is sending an Infantry Regiment from New Avalon to Tharkad on the regular.


That said, I'd have liked to see the Aurora get actual INFANTRY pods instead of those crap versions that we got where its 2 vehicles w/ a few platoons of infantry.

Moving a Regiment by itself with just cargo space for the extra food required for all those troops for few jumps would have been nice.


I imagine there is something like a Monarch out there that uses more Steerage & less 1st/2nd class quarters for mass transport, but really, most of the IS population never leaves the world they are born on so its not something that is in HUGE demand I would think.

[Kidd]

Take cargo ship, allocate 5 tons per trooper, done.

IIRC that figure fits into NASA's estimates, add the advanced tech of BTverse into the picture, it's good enough for pretty much unlimited duration with recycling and all that.

How many mech regimental carriers are common?  how many armor regimental carriers?  I acknowledged the infantry regiment transport would be superior from a efficiency standpoint but like using even battalion mech carriers (see Overlord) its a lot of assets in a egg that can get popped.

Eh well. They're just infantry ;D

WW2 troopships carried several thousands of infantry each. Dropships shouldn't be an issue.

Besides, Jumpships are rare enough that the Light Combat Team made conservation of dropcollars a design goal.

If you put a full RCT's combat units into battalion-sized transports, that's ~30 dropships; if company-sized transports, there'll be over 100. That's a lot of Jumpships. Factor in another 30 or so Mules to haul supplies. And then there's follow-on and occupation troops to consider... altogether a significant logistics effort.

Personally I think only maybe a third or even a quarter of any unit's troops are in smaller-sized transports, these would be the first wave of the assault. The rest would be in battalion-sized dropships at least. And in the first place units would try their best not to conduct Overlord-style planetary assaults in the teeth of enemy defences.

[Wrangler]

You know, i would imagine some of the Jumbo-Class Dropships (as their sort of patch together ships to begin with) must have passage/colony variant which has to carry passengers.  Those people had been shipped from Terra (Earth) somehow.  I think were just looking at aspect of Battletech that really doesn't focus on small stuff in background.

I think were fortunate enough to have Monarch and Princess Class Passenger/Luxury DropShips that dedicated to people moving.

In the Dark Age novels, number of the DropShips used for military use, such as the Leopard, Union, even Overlord and at least ONE Excalibur-Classes of DropShip were noted as be Civilian Converted DropShips.  They did carry passengers, but those never got stats. 

[Colt Ward]

In the Dark Age novels, number of the DropShips used for military use, such as the Leopard, Union, even Overlord and at least ONE Excalibur-Classes of DropShip were noted as be Civilian Converted DropShips.  They did carry passengers, but those never got stats.

Yup, and many were converted back when the guns came out.  But under Stone they had many of their weapons removed and the mech or vehicle cubicles pulled out.  Even a Okinawa that ended up with the Steel Wolves and was used as a Trojan horse to hit Archenar.

[Hellraiser]

Personally I think only maybe a third or even a quarter of any unit's troops are in smaller-sized transports, these would be the first wave of the assault. The rest would be in battalion-sized dropships at least. And in the first place units would try their best not to conduct Overlord-style planetary assaults in the teeth of enemy defences.

I'd go so far as to say a good chunk is in cargo ships.


Take a typical mech regiment for example.

You don't need all 108-132 mechs in combat ships.

3 Leopards
3 Unions
1 Overlord

This gives you more than enough to drop from orbit.

The Leo's/Unions split up & hit strategic sites quickly while the Overlord/Unions drop into a future LZ to secure it.

Then once the ground is a secure-ish LZ the OL/Unions land & call down a wave of cargo ships with the rest of the regiment & support to off load.


Expand that up to an RCT & you get the same mech carriers but toss in an Excalibur and some Seeker/Triumph/Condors/Gazelles for full security at the LZ.
You also toss in a Fury or 2 out with the Leo's/Unions to add infantry to take those strategic locations.

When the Mules descend they unload the rest of the mechs but also regiments of Infantry/Vehicles from their cargo bays.
Each Mule can handle a Regiment of Grunts & Battalion of Tanks fairly easily and still have some cargo space.

3 Infantry Regiments as Cargo & 2 attached to the above combat ships up above gets you your RCT on the ground in good order.

7 Mech Carriers,  another 10 Conventional Carriers,  5 Mules,  and a Vengeance & 2 Avengers gets your DS count down from 30-50 DS for the RCT down to 25.

And honestly you could shave off 7 of those if you had too to squeeze just the first wave ships onto a Monolith & 3 Invaders & send the Invaders back for a 2nd round of ships.

4 JS  (3 of the most common) to move an RCT invasion force in 1.5 waves isn't nearly the logistics tail that we've seen in some of the Novels/Sourcebooks where a dozen+ warp into a system.


I think the biggest issue is people trying to cram the entire combat force into combat carriers all in 1 wave w/ JS attached.

It would be far more likely to see 1/4-1/3 of the Mechs being cargo shipped & possibly over 1/2 of the Infantry & Tanks.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter.

[Talen5000]

I'd go so far as to say a good chunk is in cargo ships.

It would be far more likely to see 1/4-1/3 of the Mechs being cargo shipped & possibly over 1/2 of the Infantry & Tanks.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter.

It depends.

Cargo ships would certainly be more efficient on a DropCollar basis...

But front line units are going to be expecting to land while under hostile fire at least some of the time. Those units are going to want combat DropShips.

Combat DropShips and transport bays also offer maintainance and repair capability, and the ability to offload troops fairly quickly.

Any unit important enough to warrant dedicated DropShips are likely to get combat ships.


It'll be the garrison units and mercs who get to hire cargo ships.

[The_Caveman]

JumpShip collars (and large combat DropShips) are too valuable for any unit over battalion size to be deploying entirely in combat vessels. Combat ships are the sharp end, you use them to make holes that everything else can fit through.

Deploying your entire army in a frontal assault is a stupendous gamble, anyway. Every ship that gets taken out in the landing action takes a chunk of your ground forces with it. Better to leave most of them in orbit until there is a place where they can land without coming under fire.

[RifleMech]

When you say that you're moving your entire force is that combat personnel, support personnel, and dependents? Or just combat personnel and some techs?

If you're moving everyone, I'd put the dependents in a civilian ship and the military in a combat ship.
The military might even be separated by combat and support dropship.

Combat personnel stay in the bays so they can deploy quickly.  Support personnel stay in cargo bays using the rules mentioned for infantry in cargo bays. They don't need to deploy quickly. Of course those of higher rank could have better quarters if the trip is a long one. I'd go as far as the CO having Luxury or UltraLuxury Quarters, then fluff it as meeting rooms and maps, space for aids and such.

Depending on how wealthy the unit is I'd try to have all the dependents in the equivalent of steerage quarters but if 28 troopers can live in a 5 ton bay a family shouldn't have any problem. And of course higher ups could be in better quarters. Of course they'd also have to be taking care of civilian problems too.

The exceptions would be if the personel, military or civilian, paid to upgrade their quarters. Then they could travel in nicer quarters. Presuming availability.

[Hellraiser]

But front line units are going to be expecting to land while under hostile fire at least some of the time. Those units are going to want combat DropShips.

......

Any unit important enough to warrant dedicated DropShips are likely to get combat ships.

They have combat ships.

My post laid out a bunch of them actually.

But assuming that the entire RCT deploys at the same time immediately is expecting a bit much.

"Maybe" the mechs deploy but as I stated, I see no issue with having 2+ battalions drop from high altitude & having the last 2-3 companies land once the LZ is secure.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, most the RCT's armor & infantry assets are to help hold the territory the mech takes so there is no reason half up to three-quarters do not arrive by cargo dropship.

[Col Toda]

Conquistador DS . Has everything modify for your needs .It carries a combined arms unit from the get go.  Short and turn to quarters from whatever asset class indicated by your order of battle . As is comes with 20 battle armor troops so depending on the numbers you want to move Empty bays may be just used for people  . An empty heavy combat bay comes with transport space for like a crew of 6 ? . If your unit is small enough the an unmodified  ship can carry a lot of people in the existing  unutilized  space .

[Nebfer]

On a per mass basis Infantry Bays are more mass efficient than Crew Quarters when the trip is under 107 days duration.

You get a 5 ton bay holding 30 guys, the life support tonnage is 20 man days per ton, the Quarters is 5 tons per guy and 200 man days per ton.

So 30 guys x 5 tons = 150 tons in quarters vs 5 tons in bays, 16 tons of life support nets you 106.67 days for quarters (total 166 tons). For the Infantry Bay 161 tons nets you 107.34 days life support. Add any more life support the quarters start having a net positive in terms of man days vs tonnage over Bays (I.e. 110 man days in Quarters is 166.5 tons vs 170 tons in Bays).

One thing to note is while the fluff seems to indicate dropships are some what cramped, in reality they should not be, I mean a cargo bay that can have a mech walk around inside it can easily have 4 or more decks if converted to passengers, Mech carriers have massive open areas for the mechs to move around in.


Of that Life support cost I suspect much of the difference is that the Bays have much of the life support gear already counted for and perhaps a good chunk of the habitability stuff (messing, restrooms, rec rooms and the like) as well. Where as the infantry bays require a lot of that to be containerized.

A Typical Quarter set up might have a four or perhaps six or so double occupancy rooms (perhaps duel bunk beds, but over all not much more than 100 square feet (9.3 square meters)) that exit to a open lounge area where they can relax a bit perhaps have some mild entertainment (games, reading and the like), on one end you have your showers and restroom facility's Significant recreation facility's (like a theater or a gym) as well as messing spaces are built in but likely in a different deck. In a Bay set up you like in a communal space for 30ish guys in cot like multiple bunks, the squad leaders and commander likely have their own tiny cramped quarters, the Messing space is a communal one that is palatalized shared by most of the rest of the "bay passengers" is most notably defined by long cafeteria lines... Rec Space is also cramped and shared by 30, 60 or more guys, to say little of the restrooms.

Life support gear is also perhaps a bit inadequate and containerized (and likely to change on what was available when you loaded up... one trip might be a bit chilly as you got a lot of AC units but had a slight lack of water purifiers...)