Author Topic: Where Are The People Movers?  (Read 12729 times)

SCC

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #30 on: 26 June 2019, 15:58:24 »
Pretty sure Cray trotted out all the numbers and the DS all have LOTS of volume . . . in some cases too much really.  As for the Argo?  Well you have those hab pods, but I usually do not get the 3rd one refurb'd nor do I get the 3rd set of 6 mech cubicles done.  Which I grant is b/c I am cheap and exploiting some things in the game I would not in regular BTU- I can only drop 4 mechs, maybe have 4 in a row twice for a total of 8, so why do I need 18 mechs on standby?  Heck, first time through the campaign I only kept 10 up in the cubicles.
This is where my comment about how SL tech should decrease the amount tonnage each person consumes, because where else is all that weight going but life support?

How does that work?   A Leopard is 1900 tons, and the smallest Quarters is 5 tons.  Stripping out all 4 Mech bays and both ASF Bays means you have 900 tons available, meaning you can carry 180 people.  But even then I don't see any mention of cargo space, and you would use .9 tons of Supply every day to keep people alive.
I mucked up my math.

The_Caveman

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #31 on: 26 June 2019, 16:51:50 »
This is where my comment about how SL tech should decrease the amount tonnage each person consumes, because where else is all that weight going but life support?

Fancy zero-g toilets. Furniture. Greywater stores. Lighting. A single person's share of the weight of recreational facilities, dining facilities, office space, computer equipment. Storage for the passenger's baggage. All the stuff that isn't bare flight hardware. The more weight per person you spend on quarters, the more of all that stuff an individual has access to. Maybe the Star League had endo-steel beds and extra-light ovens, but the single heaviest chunk of all that stuff is going to be the water, and without it you are taking sponge baths and wiping your hands with sanitizer gel after using the head.

I honestly think when they wrote some of the troop transport fluff, they were watching some of the WWII Pacific movies where the troops were stacked with barely any space . . . and no one thought out the calculations Cray trotted out to project their density for volume.

DropShips are big, but they are also packed full of stuff that takes up space. Engines, fuel tanks, weapons, structure. They're not big empty balloons. Speaking of big, empty balloons, look at pictures of the crew facilities onboard military airships pre-WW2. There was technically a huge amount of volume available but very little of it was allocated to the crew.

And just because there is volume doesn't mean you can put people in it--we build rectangular houses instead of circular ones for a reason.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

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Daryk

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #32 on: 26 June 2019, 17:37:34 »
The actual problem here is that life support only costs C-Bills, not tons.  I'm not sure of the logic behind that game design decision, but there it is.

Colt Ward

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #33 on: 26 June 2019, 18:27:32 »
DropShips are big, but they are also packed full of stuff that takes up space. Engines, fuel tanks, weapons, structure. They're not big empty balloons. Speaking of big, empty balloons, look at pictures of the crew facilities onboard military airships pre-WW2. There was technically a huge amount of volume available but very little of it was allocated to the crew.

And just because there is volume doesn't mean you can put people in it--we build rectangular houses instead of circular ones for a reason.

You are comparing the volume of a gas to the volume of a solid, the two are not comparable in such a manner.  In addition, the gas provided lift while we get super efficient fusion rockets that are going to weigh more but take up less volume to provide the 'work.'
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SCC

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #34 on: 26 June 2019, 22:39:05 »
Fancy zero-g toilets. Furniture. Greywater stores. Lighting. A single person's share of the weight of recreational facilities, dining facilities, office space, computer equipment. Storage for the passenger's baggage. All the stuff that isn't bare flight hardware. The more weight per person you spend on quarters, the more of all that stuff an individual has access to. Maybe the Star League had endo-steel beds and extra-light ovens, but the single heaviest chunk of all that stuff is going to be the water, and without it you are taking sponge baths and wiping your hands with sanitizer gel after using the head.
Zero-g toilets aren't fancy, they're a pump with at most two hoses, probably weigh no more then a vacuum cleaner in BT. Furniture isn't going to be much either, a fold down bed, a table and maybe two chairs. Greywater stores are going to be negligible, because recycling. Lighting is again negligible. Recreational facilities aren't going to be much in steerage quarters (Bring plenty of books on your noteputer!). Any smart commander would dine is crew in shifts or the dining hall is the recreational space. Baggage probably goes in quarters and likely isn't that much to begin with.

truetanker

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #35 on: 26 June 2019, 23:30:16 »
I see a carry-on Milspec duffel bag, probably carrying two or three sets of multi universal ex-military clothes from past units, bits and pieces of personal equipment, also from their ex-units as keepsakes. Some very common ' downtime ' clothing, a messkit, their current uniform and combat equipment, personal toiletries and a few trinkets...

Standard bunk, which might contain a slim storage locker in one corner, a tri-vid TV built in, speaker comm and an overhead lightbar. The head might be a shower stall with built in toilet seat in a corner, built in mirror opposite wall and contains suction hoses and hand / foot ledges for zero-g washings.

Most likely have a dedicated washing room for clothes, and a zero-g rated gym, flex-straps, a " rodent " wheel with built in centerline handlebar for hand over hand exercises. Note your strapped down and work your upper body by pulling yourself using your hands, or your arms are holding you down while you jog in place... currently NASA is looking into these as a means to work both upper and lower bodies in space.

Of course if you got gravity, works the same...

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SCC

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #36 on: 27 June 2019, 04:03:02 »
For a budget passenger liner or a military I'd expect that the exercise equipment would be in a communal area and it's two or four people to a single room and wash room for military transports

The_Caveman

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #37 on: 27 June 2019, 07:54:17 »
You are comparing the volume of a gas to the volume of a solid, the two are not comparable in such a manner.  In addition, the gas provided lift while we get super efficient fusion rockets that are going to weigh more but take up less volume to provide the 'work.'

You're missing my point. I'm not saying that DropShips are subject to the same design constraints as 20th century airships. I'm saying that just because there is volume, that doesn't automatically mean you can use it for crew space because there are other design constraints to deal with. It's not Santa's sack, you can't just throw stuff in there and expect it all to fit as an amorphous blob. There is going to be wasted space, probably a whole lot of it.

Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

Colt Ward

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #38 on: 27 June 2019, 09:47:07 »
Sure, which is why I mentioned the density calculations that cray did years ago which did indicate between a couple of classes of DS that they had a lot of empty space inside.  I have been in several different classes of warships, I know in places you have open space for service but I know you also have some compartments that are against the hull & shaped b/c of it.
Colt Ward
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Talen5000

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #39 on: 27 June 2019, 10:37:17 »
I think this happens not only because there aren't any cannon people movers, but also because DS designs tend to be on the small end of the scale (A Leopard can move all of 900 people with it's bays converted to quarters). The fact that SL tech doesn't increase the number of people you can cram into a given space likely doesn't help, and is also somewhat weird then you think about it.

Again....the issue is not that people movers cannot exist.

Its that, given the universe, they don't need to. Indeed, it would be somewhat surprising if they did.

But the answer to your question still depends on i formation you haven't privided.

How large is your merc group  that it requires a people hauler?
When does your campaign take place? The comment about Waylands makes me suspect Reunification War, but mercs weren't especially common then. Or perhaps the SL era?
What do you expect this DropShip to do? Is it to serve as a mobile base? A home? Is it to be merely a transport? Or a permanent residence? Are you moving techs, or dependents?

Because I can't think of why you may be having trouble unless you are moving a lot of dependents as technicians  and support staff get counted as part of the bay infrastructure. It might not be comfortable, but that 1 bay provides cover for 5 or 6 people.

And if you are moving dependents with your unit, they should be your DropShip crew and your support and technical staff.

So....exactly how large is your unit, how far do you expect them to travel and in what degree of comfort? Because if it is just a trip between contracts then a small life pod, a prefab with built in life support, should cover any shortfall, albeit at the expense of cargo

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Colt Ward

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #40 on: 27 June 2019, 11:22:33 »
 . . . huh?  Its canon that we have multiple armor regiments for each mech regiment, and multiple infantry regiments for each armor regiment- both in the regulars and mercs.  Battlemechs are great for taking ground, but they are not going to hold it- you need the infantry for that sort of thing.  If armor regiments have their vehicles (as in the movement of a RCT) loaded as cargo, then those crews are going to have to be kept somewhere while they are in transit and that is not just for garrison movements since armor regiments tagged as follow on forces for a RCT assault would ship as cargo with vehicle combat transports being a finite supply.

We also have offensives that have movement of large conventional forces and are not told that the attacker had problems moving large amounts of infantry- Reunification War, Kerensky's campaign against Aramis (transit from TC to RWR would be how long?), the Bears used Leviathans to support their JS fleet to bring their lower castes to the IS (6 months+), 2SL's TF Serpent trip to Huntress, and a few others.

We should have a DS fitted as a infantry battalion transport, hauling 300 troopers in steerage . . . so 1500t which is a drop in the bucket for many economical DS (IE, cargo to drop collar ratio).  So . . . battalion of infantry, two small craft cubicles (able to land them all in 1 wave), and cargo . . . could easily be done in a Union.  The DroST, except for using bays instead of quarters, is really set up as a ideal motorized/mechanized infantry battalion (3 infantry companies w/HQ platoon) w/2200t for loading the APCs and supplies. For dropcollar & naval crew efficiency a infantry regiment carrier would be better.
Colt Ward
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SCC

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #41 on: 27 June 2019, 16:50:13 »
Colt, BT uses the regimental system, so you'd be wanting to move troops around in regimental sized units, or about a thousand men.

Colt Ward

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #42 on: 27 June 2019, 21:59:50 »
How many mech regimental carriers are common?  how many armor regimental carriers?  I acknowledged the infantry regiment transport would be superior from a efficiency standpoint but like using even battalion mech carriers (see Overlord) its a lot of assets in a egg that can get popped.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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Hellraiser

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #43 on: 28 June 2019, 22:21:32 »
We should have a DS fitted as a infantry battalion transport,

Looks over at the Condor.....   

You really don't need them set up in Steerage.  No one is traveling that far with those #'s of troops.

They move to a staging world on the border if its not already their own world.  And then they move across the border a jump or 2.

No one is sending an Infantry Regiment from New Avalon to Tharkad on the regular.


That said, I'd have liked to see the Aurora get actual INFANTRY pods instead of those crap versions that we got where its 2 vehicles w/ a few platoons of infantry.

Moving a Regiment by itself with just cargo space for the extra food required for all those troops for few jumps would have been nice.


I imagine there is something like a Monarch out there that uses more Steerage & less 1st/2nd class quarters for mass transport, but really, most of the IS population never leaves the world they are born on so its not something that is in HUGE demand I would think.

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Kidd

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #44 on: 28 June 2019, 22:48:31 »
Take cargo ship, allocate 5 tons per trooper, done.

IIRC that figure fits into NASA's estimates, add the advanced tech of BTverse into the picture, it's good enough for pretty much unlimited duration with recycling and all that.

How many mech regimental carriers are common?  how many armor regimental carriers?  I acknowledged the infantry regiment transport would be superior from a efficiency standpoint but like using even battalion mech carriers (see Overlord) its a lot of assets in a egg that can get popped.
Eh well. They're just infantry ;D

WW2 troopships carried several thousands of infantry each. Dropships shouldn't be an issue.

Besides, Jumpships are rare enough that the Light Combat Team made conservation of dropcollars a design goal.

If you put a full RCT's combat units into battalion-sized transports, that's ~30 dropships; if company-sized transports, there'll be over 100. That's a lot of Jumpships. Factor in another 30 or so Mules to haul supplies. And then there's follow-on and occupation troops to consider... altogether a significant logistics effort.

Personally I think only maybe a third or even a quarter of any unit's troops are in smaller-sized transports, these would be the first wave of the assault. The rest would be in battalion-sized dropships at least. And in the first place units would try their best not to conduct Overlord-style planetary assaults in the teeth of enemy defences.

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #45 on: 29 June 2019, 09:01:39 »
You know, i would imagine some of the Jumbo-Class Dropships (as their sort of patch together ships to begin with) must have passage/colony variant which has to carry passengers.  Those people had been shipped from Terra (Earth) somehow.  I think were just looking at aspect of Battletech that really doesn't focus on small stuff in background.

I think were fortunate enough to have Monarch and Princess Class Passenger/Luxury DropShips that dedicated to people moving.

In the Dark Age novels, number of the DropShips used for military use, such as the Leopard, Union, even Overlord and at least ONE Excalibur-Classes of DropShip were noted as be Civilian Converted DropShips.  They did carry passengers, but those never got stats. 
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Colt Ward

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #46 on: 29 June 2019, 10:48:44 »
In the Dark Age novels, number of the DropShips used for military use, such as the Leopard, Union, even Overlord and at least ONE Excalibur-Classes of DropShip were noted as be Civilian Converted DropShips.  They did carry passengers, but those never got stats.

Yup, and many were converted back when the guns came out.  But under Stone they had many of their weapons removed and the mech or vehicle cubicles pulled out.  Even a Okinawa that ended up with the Steel Wolves and was used as a Trojan horse to hit Archenar.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #47 on: 29 June 2019, 17:19:24 »
Personally I think only maybe a third or even a quarter of any unit's troops are in smaller-sized transports, these would be the first wave of the assault. The rest would be in battalion-sized dropships at least. And in the first place units would try their best not to conduct Overlord-style planetary assaults in the teeth of enemy defences.

I'd go so far as to say a good chunk is in cargo ships.


Take a typical mech regiment for example.

You don't need all 108-132 mechs in combat ships.

3 Leopards
3 Unions
1 Overlord

This gives you more than enough to drop from orbit.

The Leo's/Unions split up & hit strategic sites quickly while the Overlord/Unions drop into a future LZ to secure it.

Then once the ground is a secure-ish LZ the OL/Unions land & call down a wave of cargo ships with the rest of the regiment & support to off load.


Expand that up to an RCT & you get the same mech carriers but toss in an Excalibur and some Seeker/Triumph/Condors/Gazelles for full security at the LZ.
You also toss in a Fury or 2 out with the Leo's/Unions to add infantry to take those strategic locations.

When the Mules descend they unload the rest of the mechs but also regiments of Infantry/Vehicles from their cargo bays.
Each Mule can handle a Regiment of Grunts & Battalion of Tanks fairly easily and still have some cargo space.

3 Infantry Regiments as Cargo & 2 attached to the above combat ships up above gets you your RCT on the ground in good order.

7 Mech Carriers,  another 10 Conventional Carriers,  5 Mules,  and a Vengeance & 2 Avengers gets your DS count down from 30-50 DS for the RCT down to 25.

And honestly you could shave off 7 of those if you had too to squeeze just the first wave ships onto a Monolith & 3 Invaders & send the Invaders back for a 2nd round of ships.

4 JS  (3 of the most common) to move an RCT invasion force in 1.5 waves isn't nearly the logistics tail that we've seen in some of the Novels/Sourcebooks where a dozen+ warp into a system.


I think the biggest issue is people trying to cram the entire combat force into combat carriers all in 1 wave w/ JS attached.

It would be far more likely to see 1/4-1/3 of the Mechs being cargo shipped & possibly over 1/2 of the Infantry & Tanks.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter.
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Talen5000

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #48 on: 30 June 2019, 06:33:27 »
I'd go so far as to say a good chunk is in cargo ships.

It would be far more likely to see 1/4-1/3 of the Mechs being cargo shipped & possibly over 1/2 of the Infantry & Tanks.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter.

It depends.

Cargo ships would certainly be more efficient on a DropCollar basis...

But front line units are going to be expecting to land while under hostile fire at least some of the time. Those units are going to want combat DropShips.

Combat DropShips and transport bays also offer maintainance and repair capability, and the ability to offload troops fairly quickly.

Any unit important enough to warrant dedicated DropShips are likely to get combat ships.


It'll be the garrison units and mercs who get to hire cargo ships.
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The_Caveman

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #49 on: 30 June 2019, 10:18:56 »
JumpShip collars (and large combat DropShips) are too valuable for any unit over battalion size to be deploying entirely in combat vessels. Combat ships are the sharp end, you use them to make holes that everything else can fit through.

Deploying your entire army in a frontal assault is a stupendous gamble, anyway. Every ship that gets taken out in the landing action takes a chunk of your ground forces with it. Better to leave most of them in orbit until there is a place where they can land without coming under fire.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

RifleMech

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #50 on: 30 June 2019, 21:56:47 »
When you say that you're moving your entire force is that combat personnel, support personnel, and dependents? Or just combat personnel and some techs?

If you're moving everyone, I'd put the dependents in a civilian ship and the military in a combat ship.
The military might even be separated by combat and support dropship.

Combat personnel stay in the bays so they can deploy quickly.  Support personnel stay in cargo bays using the rules mentioned for infantry in cargo bays. They don't need to deploy quickly. Of course those of higher rank could have better quarters if the trip is a long one. I'd go as far as the CO having Luxury or UltraLuxury Quarters, then fluff it as meeting rooms and maps, space for aids and such.

Depending on how wealthy the unit is I'd try to have all the dependents in the equivalent of steerage quarters but if 28 troopers can live in a 5 ton bay a family shouldn't have any problem. And of course higher ups could be in better quarters. Of course they'd also have to be taking care of civilian problems too.

The exceptions would be if the personel, military or civilian, paid to upgrade their quarters. Then they could travel in nicer quarters. Presuming availability.

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #51 on: 02 July 2019, 00:27:17 »
But front line units are going to be expecting to land while under hostile fire at least some of the time. Those units are going to want combat DropShips.

......

Any unit important enough to warrant dedicated DropShips are likely to get combat ships.


They have combat ships.

My post laid out a bunch of them actually.

But assuming that the entire RCT deploys at the same time immediately is expecting a bit much.

"Maybe" the mechs deploy but as I stated, I see no issue with having 2+ battalions drop from high altitude & having the last 2-3 companies land once the LZ is secure.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #52 on: 02 July 2019, 00:32:10 »
Yeah, most the RCT's armor & infantry assets are to help hold the territory the mech takes so there is no reason half up to three-quarters do not arrive by cargo dropship.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Col Toda

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #53 on: 02 September 2019, 18:59:42 »
Conquistador DS . Has everything modify for your needs .It carries a combined arms unit from the get go.  Short and turn to quarters from whatever asset class indicated by your order of battle . As is comes with 20 battle armor troops so depending on the numbers you want to move Empty bays may be just used for people  . An empty heavy combat bay comes with transport space for like a crew of 6 ? . If your unit is small enough the an unmodified  ship can carry a lot of people in the existing  unutilized  space .
« Last Edit: 02 September 2019, 19:12:45 by Col Toda »

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Re: Where Are The People Movers?
« Reply #54 on: 27 October 2019, 22:57:17 »
On a per mass basis Infantry Bays are more mass efficient than Crew Quarters when the trip is under 107 days duration.

You get a 5 ton bay holding 30 guys, the life support tonnage is 20 man days per ton, the Quarters is 5 tons per guy and 200 man days per ton.

So 30 guys x 5 tons = 150 tons in quarters vs 5 tons in bays, 16 tons of life support nets you 106.67 days for quarters (total 166 tons). For the Infantry Bay 161 tons nets you 107.34 days life support. Add any more life support the quarters start having a net positive in terms of man days vs tonnage over Bays (I.e. 110 man days in Quarters is 166.5 tons vs 170 tons in Bays).

One thing to note is while the fluff seems to indicate dropships are some what cramped, in reality they should not be, I mean a cargo bay that can have a mech walk around inside it can easily have 4 or more decks if converted to passengers, Mech carriers have massive open areas for the mechs to move around in.


Of that Life support cost I suspect much of the difference is that the Bays have much of the life support gear already counted for and perhaps a good chunk of the habitability stuff (messing, restrooms, rec rooms and the like) as well. Where as the infantry bays require a lot of that to be containerized.

A Typical Quarter set up might have a four or perhaps six or so double occupancy rooms (perhaps duel bunk beds, but over all not much more than 100 square feet (9.3 square meters)) that exit to a open lounge area where they can relax a bit perhaps have some mild entertainment (games, reading and the like), on one end you have your showers and restroom facility's Significant recreation facility's (like a theater or a gym) as well as messing spaces are built in but likely in a different deck. In a Bay set up you like in a communal space for 30ish guys in cot like multiple bunks, the squad leaders and commander likely have their own tiny cramped quarters, the Messing space is a communal one that is palatalized shared by most of the rest of the "bay passengers" is most notably defined by long cafeteria lines... Rec Space is also cramped and shared by 30, 60 or more guys, to say little of the restrooms.

Life support gear is also perhaps a bit inadequate and containerized (and likely to change on what was available when you loaded up... one trip might be a bit chilly as you got a lot of AC units but had a slight lack of water purifiers...)