"captured"pilots

[Maniac Actual]

In the aftermath of a battle, what is the chance that a pilot is captured?  For example, what happens to clan pilots captured by the inner sphere?  What is the chance / probability that an individual warrior is captured, and is automatic that they become (and except) bondsman to an inner sphere house / merc unit?  I ask because my players are currently fighting through Operation Bulldog, and I wonder what will happen to the pilots of the clan mechs that they capture.  Will they automatically join the Inner Sphere?  Will the players merc unit be allowed to keep them, or would the House unit they are contracted to claim them?

[Armitage72]

Search and Rescue, POW, and evading capture rules are in Strategic Operations, pages 45-47.

[Stormlion1]

Well we know that a lot of Clan warriors ended up in POW camps in the Combine and would revolt during the Jihad. Maybe a few were offered a place iin Inner Sphere units but the bulk most likely ended up there.

[GhostCat]

If we are talking Smoke Jaguars, they are not going to jump on any Surat bandwagon that comes along.  They are a ferocious and ruthless Crusader Clan that has no respect for the Inner Sphere warriors that oppose them.  They will not submit meekly to capture and become bondsmen to Freebirth that are obviously beneath their contempt.

As for the pilots that have already lost their mechs to freeborn trash, they can expect their giftake to be spilled on the floor and forgotten, with no lines of Remembrance for them.  Even trying to escape and evade capture with a purpose of returning to their own Clan might be out of the question, too.  Victory or Death is the only choice a Trueborn Warrior can make, and if he can't Win, then he will make sure his grave is filled with the bodies of his enemies.

The mindset of a Clan Warrior is very different the more individualistic Eyeass mech jocks.  And what a Clan Warrior thinks of anyone in an Inner Sphere Mercenary unit whose status is lower than the lowest of the "Great Houses" can not be translated into Plain Language.

The House holding the contract will do all it can to claim the salvaged mech and parts recovered but nobody is going to want the prisoner they are going to have to execute anyway.  So, the players merc unit will probably be allowed to keep any captured personnel they come across, then soon discover it's more trouble than it's worth. 

GC

[Colt Ward]

Depends on who captured the warriors and how devoted to the Crusader cause the warriors were . . . Warden Wolves got a bit of a manpower boost and seemed to end up with the prisoners in any joint action they took part in.

FedSuns?  Well we sort of know some of the Jags ended up again with the AFFS.

Trinity?  Doubtful

Lyrans?  Maybe, depends on the unit

Leaguers?  Maybe

Dracs?  Pretty likely no

ComStar?  Depends

IMO warriors from Frontline units are less likely as Lincoln was shuffling warriors around for that ardent Crusader spirit.  Bondsmen are also more likely in the first waves before what is truly happening dawns on the Jags.

[TS_Hawk]

If we are talking Smoke Jaguars, they are not going to jump on any Surat bandwagon that comes along.  They are a ferocious and ruthless Crusader Clan that has no respect for the Inner Sphere warriors that oppose them.  They will not submit meekly to capture and become bondsmen to Freebirth that are obviously beneath their contempt.

I remember in Twilight of the Clans after Victor got there on the Jags homeworld that he did have 1 or 2 Smoke Jags follow him believe 1 of them was even a female Elemental just can't remember her name.

[Archangel]

If we are talking Smoke Jaguars, they are not going to jump on any Surat bandwagon that comes along.  They are a ferocious and ruthless Crusader Clan that has no respect for the Inner Sphere warriors that oppose them.  They will not submit meekly to capture and become bondsmen to Freebirth that are obviously beneath their contempt.

True most Smoke Jaguars would rather die than be captured by Spheroid scum.  They would prefer suicide to capture and try to take some enemies with them if possible.

As for the pilots that have already lost their mechs to freeborn trash, they can expect their giftake to be spilled on the floor and forgotten, with no lines of Remembrance for them.  Even trying to escape and evade capture with a purpose of returning to their own Clan might be out of the question, too.  Victory or Death is the only choice a Trueborn Warrior can make, and if he can't Win, then he will make sure his grave is filled with the bodies of his enemies.

Not quite so cut-and-dry.  If it was then shouldn't Lincoln Osis' giftake have been destroyed?  If a warrior was captured after losing his/her 'Mech then yes their giftake is probably forfeit, but if a warrior's Mech succumbed to battle damage after a solid performance by its pilot then there should be no disgrace (the overall outcome and importance of the battle also play factors).

The House holding the contract will do all it can to claim the salvaged mech and parts recovered but nobody is going to want the prisoner they are going to have to execute anyway.  So, the players merc unit will probably be allowed to keep any captured personnel they come across, then soon discover it's more trouble than it's worth. 

The only reason they would execute them is if they were guilty of warcrimes in which case the contract holder would want claim them to see "justice" done.  Another reason that a House might want them is for interrogation purposes.  You never know if a warrior has a tidbit of information that may seem irrelevant to them but vital to the House.

[Sir Chaos]

I remember in Twilight of the Clans after Victor got there on the Jags homeworld that he did have 1 or 2 Smoke Jags follow him believe 1 of them was even a female Elemental just can't remember her name.

That was Tiaret Nevversan.

Victor didn´t defeat her in battle. She was hiding a sibko in the sewers of Luthera towards the end of the fighting on Huntress, and surrendered to him after he promised that the children wouldn´t be harmed - and after he personally went to recover a kid who had been hiding in a place too small for Tiaret to crawl into.

[GhostCat]

I remember in Twilight of the Clans after Victor got there on the Jags homeworld that he did have 1 or 2 Smoke Jags follow him believe 1 of them was even a female Elemental just can't remember her name.

I suppose that when you invoke the power of Fiat and use sufficient amounts of handwavium, anything can happen.

The only reason they would execute them is if they were guilty of warcrimes in which case the contract holder would want claim them to see "justice" done.  Another reason that a House might want them is for interrogation purposes.  You never know if a warrior has a tidbit of information that may seem irrelevant to them but vital to the House.

That's all fine, but there are not many House Lords that would inquire further after receiving a report that a prisoner was shot while attempting to escape.

@Sir Chaos:  It might be easy enough to believe that Victor would not want to harm children, but those same children are Trueborn sibkos, heavily armed and fully prepared to fight as Clan Warriors.  For the writer to make such an event believable, we'd have to ignore everything we know about the Clans, Smoke Jaguars, and Trials of Annihilation.  I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that it's not credible as anything but morale boosting propaganda.

GC

[Sir Chaos]

@Sir Chaos:  It might be easy enough to believe that Victor would not want to harm children, but those same children are Trueborn sibkos, heavily armed and fully prepared to fight as Clan Warriors.  For the writer to make such an event believable, we'd have to ignore everything we know about the Clans, Smoke Jaguars, and Trials of Annihilation.  I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that it's not credible as anything but morale boosting propaganda.

Have we been reading the same novel here?

[Stormlion1]

I don't think the sibko was old enough to be issued arms and Tiaret Nevversan I don't think was there nanny. Kids were probably still pretty young and she probably found them wandering around after hearing the "Star League" was destroying anything Smoke Jaguar Warrior related. Kids may only have been around seven or eight years old from what I understand. You know, about Victor height.

[GhostCat]

In Character.  In Universe.  Point of View.

The Truth is not always how you see it the first time you look at it.

The novels and Source Books have always been written that way from the very first days of FASA. 

The Invading Clans and Smoke Jaguars in particular were Dangerous, Violent, Evil, and Ruthless.  As seen by the defenders of the Inner Sphere.  The Inner Sphere is full of Weak, Greedy, Power Hungry Monsters that thrive on Chaos and Destruction.  And that's the Clans' Polite Answer to how they see the Inner Sphere.

The False Star League was just a ploy to facilitate the Destruction of a Crusader Clan.  Only one Warden Clan was gullible enough to join in and share in the Fun.  And when the First Lord used his position and power for personal gain, that Second Star League fell flat on its face, leaving Clan Nova Cat out on a limb with nothing to show for its good intentions. 

So Victor proved he doesn't really eat small children for breakfast and is really a kind Prince that can protect even his enemies from total destruction.  It's all about how you see want you can see.

GC

[Sami Jumppanen]

If we are talking Smoke Jaguars, they are not going to jump on any Surat bandwagon that comes along.  They are a ferocious and ruthless Crusader Clan that has no respect for the Inner Sphere warriors that oppose them.  They will not submit meekly to capture and become bondsmen to Freebirth that are obviously beneath their contempt.

As for the pilots that have already lost their mechs to freeborn trash, they can expect their giftake to be spilled on the floor and forgotten, with no lines of Remembrance for them.  Even trying to escape and evade capture with a purpose of returning to their own Clan might be out of the question, too.  Victory or Death is the only choice a Trueborn Warrior can make, and if he can't Win, then he will make sure his grave is filled with the bodies of his enemies.

The mindset of a Clan Warrior is very different the more individualistic Eyeass mech jocks.  And what a Clan Warrior thinks of anyone in an Inner Sphere Mercenary unit whose status is lower than the lowest of the "Great Houses" can not be translated into Plain Language.

The House holding the contract will do all it can to claim the salvaged mech and parts recovered but nobody is going to want the prisoner they are going to have to execute anyway.  So, the players merc unit will probably be allowed to keep any captured personnel they come across, then soon discover it's more trouble than it's worth. 

GC

Just to point out that clans have their own ways on these things and the "total war" isn't realy their thing exept during jihad and the Wars of Reaving. There is also that "waste not" -thing so AFTER claner is captured they are considered to be ex-warriors and they are expected to just "eat it". Afterall all clan warriors are made it very clear that if they fail and do not die then they are sent to civilian caste and there is no complaining about it (or was this only in sibko and the warriors who pass their trial of position are sent to solahma unit).

This is to say that captured claner might kill himself or drink himself to death but they are unlikely to rebel against their captors. If they did it would make them pretty much worst kind of dark casteman.

BTW. What was the name of Trevaline's XO? Wasn't he a claner or where Trevaline managed to capture him?

[Acolyte]

I suppose that when you invoke the power of Fiat and use sufficient amounts of handwavium, anything can happen.

Invoking Fiat loses you the argument. What we have here is the Canon source that disagrees with you. How you want the clans to act in your personal AU is up to you, but it's just not supported in canon.

   - Shane

[GhostCat]

Invoking Fiat loses you the argument. What we have here is the Canon source that disagrees with you. How you want the clans to act in your personal AU is up to you, but it's just not supported in canon.

   - Shane

I'm not sure I understand.  Is this comment an automatic reflex to a single word taken out of context? 

I do agree that "How you want the clans to act in your personal AU is up to you," but in that case you don't need a Canon source to support it. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I had the impression that the Clans bred genetically engineered biologic organisms for the specialized purpose of doing battle and waging war, and trained them by the hundreds in groups called sibkos.  Any child not so attached to a "Trueborn sibko" was generally labeled "Freebirth" and not counted as an important asset to the Clan. 

GC

[Acolyte]

OK, lets see....

I remember in Twilight of the Clans after Victor got there on the Jags homeworld that he did have 1 or 2 Smoke Jags follow him believe 1 of them was even a female Elemental just can't remember her name.

Was quoted by you and dismissed as Fiat.

In short

Correct me if I am wrong, but I had the impression that the Clans bred genetically engineered biologic organisms for the specialized purpose of doing battle and waging war, and trained them by the hundreds in groups called sibkos.  Any child not so attached to a "Trueborn sibko" was generally labeled "Freebirth" and not counted as an important asset to the Clan. 

Is absolutely correct

If we are talking Smoke Jaguars, they are not going to jump on any Surat bandwagon that comes along.  They are a ferocious and ruthless Crusader Clan that has no respect for the Inner Sphere warriors that oppose them.  They will not submit meekly to capture and become bondsmen to Freebirth that are obviously beneath their contempt.

As for the pilots that have already lost their mechs to freeborn trash, they can expect their giftake to be spilled on the floor and forgotten, with no lines of Remembrance for them.  Even trying to escape and evade capture with a purpose of returning to their own Clan might be out of the question, too.  Victory or Death is the only choice a Trueborn Warrior can make, and if he can't Win, then he will make sure his grave is filled with the bodies of his enemies.

Is not. At least not in cannon. IIRC there was even a SJ Clanner fighting on Solaris 7 for money. For a non-warrior freebirth stable owner. He did take perverse joy out of killing Kuritan pilots, though.

Clearly, they adapt a lot better than you give them credit.

And that's probably it, people - even genetically engineered ones - adapt.

   - Shane

[GhostCat]

In Canon, as told by the People of "We Say So" aka TPTB.  Which never changes and has only one objective point of view.  Quiaff?

And yet, I never said capturing a Smoke Jaguar trueborn Clan warrior was impossible.  For a few Important Storyline Personages, such a task might be ranked as simple and easy with bonuses for earlier successes.  But the average Peasant Farmer rebelling on a previously conquered world might expect an entirely different reaction.

Are the Jaguar atrocities committed on the Invasion Corridor still Canon?  As I recall, the cute and cuddly Jags were a little shocked when the otherwise passive and docile planetary populations flatly rejected their clearly dominant and superior position as Masters of those conquered worlds. 

Of course, that's just a casual observation acquired from an old Canon resource book that might be long out of print by now. 

On the other hand, Prince Victor Davion did ignore his responsibilities and duties to properly govern the Inner Sphere and did assemble a huge military force of like minded people so that they could make an unprovoked attack on the honorable Clan Warriors of Smoke Jaguars who never did anything to deserve such attention.

To count something as Canon does not always give you a single correct point of view.  Each new piece of information can put a slightly different spin on something you thought was set in stone.  Even the chaotic Powers That Be can suddenly change what is Canon simply because they say so.  Even a Player Character can adapt and adjust to rapidly changing circumstances when it needs to.

GC

[Acolyte]

What's canon simply tells you what's history. TPTB have been very good about not changing things unless absolutely necessary, which is why the those bird people from Far Country are still canon even with the no non human sentience paradim.

Now certainly people might have different perspectives - about 1 different perspective per person, actually - doesn't change the fact that we have an outside looking in view for most of it. We know that Victor didn't just turn his back on the elemental and just decide to turn around and cut him down. We know there was a threat there. Now, the leaders of the Knights of the Inner Sphere had a different perspective. We know who killed Archon Melisa Steiner. Thanks to Kathrine most people in universe didn't. They had a different perspective.

So, unless you're RPing as a Clanner right now, you should know that SJ pilots were captured quite a bit and they adapted, even to freebirths having command over them. Even to becoming mercenary. There were some who committed suicide rather than have that happen, I'll admit, but for the most part they adapted as well as any other clan.

As to Victor going off to war and leaving his responsibilities behind..... look up Richard the Lionhearted. He also had some problems on the way home. :D And you are correct, he could have left it to Kai after Bulldog and it would have gotten done (most likely).

Really the only thing I objected to originally was the sentiment that "that shouldn't have happened, wouldn't have happened, but it did so.... Author FIAT" argument.

   - Shane

[Nightlord01]

In the aftermath of a battle, what is the chance that a pilot is captured?  For example, what happens to clan pilots captured by the inner sphere?  What is the chance / probability that an individual warrior is captured, and is automatic that they become (and except) bondsman to an inner sphere house / merc unit?  I ask because my players are currently fighting through Operation Bulldog, and I wonder what will happen to the pilots of the clan mechs that they capture.  Will they automatically join the Inner Sphere?  Will the players merc unit be allowed to keep them, or would the House unit they are contracted to claim them?

It really all depends on a lot of things. You can track all of this through a game quite easily, it just gives you a bunch of other tokens.

For any mech equipped with a while head ejection system, forget it. They are designed to return to base, with or without pilot interaction. For mechs without that feature, old rules stated that a mechwarrior would eject into the hex immediately behind the mech, and could move one hex per turn, during the end phase. These units do not use initiative.

If the mechwarrior links up with a friendly unit, they are home free, if they are caught by a hostile unit, they are captured. You could complicate this with the friendly unit must withdraw off board, or to the edge of the board, to off load the mechwarrior, same for hostile units.

Clan mechwarriors are a curious thing, I'm pretty sure you have to win the battle to be able to claim isorla, including bondsmen. There are, however, canon sources that contradict this, such as CGB capturing Ragnar Magnusson, despite losing the trial.

Ultimately it's up to you, contrary to the opinion of at least some members of this board, canon states that captured clan warriors are a largely docile lot, and will simply serve with whomever captures them. Unless your mercs have specific clauses in the contract, PoWs will be at the discretion of the merc commander, as the IS does not traditionally consider PoWs as salvage.

If you want to provide further hooks for your campaign, you could have the ISF being very interested in clan PoWs, you could parley this into a link up scenario, or into a breakthrough scenario if the ISF simply tries to take the PoWs.

[Sartris]

The 1st Free Worlds Guard writeup in FM: Updates says they acquired a few clan bondsman during Operation Bulldog and had incorporated them into the unit.

[TS_Hawk]

In Character.  In Universe.  Point of View.

The Truth is not always how you see it the first time you look at it.

The novels and Source Books have always been written that way from the very first days of FASA. 

The Invading Clans and Smoke Jaguars in particular were Dangerous, Violent, Evil, and Ruthless.  As seen by the defenders of the Inner Sphere.  The Inner Sphere is full of Weak, Greedy, Power Hungry Monsters that thrive on Chaos and Destruction.  And that's the Clans' Polite Answer to how they see the Inner Sphere.

Sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black.  Because for the most part the clans are actually considered arrogant and snobbish power hungry and evil warmongers.  They are not here for peace they are here for the entire annihilation of the Inner Sphere because from how their history has been distorted from the original exodus that is all fudged up beyond all repair.  But this is getting way off topic here now too from what the OP wanted

[Sir Chaos]

The 1st Free Worlds Guard writeup in FM: Updates says they acquired a few clan bondsman during Operation Bulldog and had incorporated them into the unit.

I have no problem believing that a small percentage of even Smoke Jaguars assimilate into whatever Inner Sphere unit that takes them bondsman. The Smoke Jaguar touman was large, and even a small percentage means there´ll be quite a few in absolute numbers.

[Archangel]

For any mech equipped with a while head ejection system, forget it. They are designed to return to base, with or without pilot interaction. For mechs without that feature, old rules stated that a mechwarrior would eject into the hex immediately behind the mech, and could move one hex per turn, during the end phase. These units do not use initiative.

I don't believe that the head ejection system is as advanced as you seem to believe.  After all a home base should be a considerable distance from the front lines and it isn't likely that the system has that much fuel as it would pose a risk in itself if hit.  Do you have a canon source to support your statement?

Clan mechwarriors are a curious thing, I'm pretty sure you have to win the battle to be able to claim isorla, including bondsmen. There are, however, canon sources that contradict this, such as CGB capturing Ragnar Magnusson, despite losing the trial.

Victory in battle is the primary source but a lesser source is claiming a bondsman before the battle is over.

Ultimately it's up to you, contrary to the opinion of at least some members of this board, canon states that captured clan warriors are a largely docile lot, and will simply serve with whomever captures them. Unless your mercs have specific clauses in the contract, PoWs will be at the discretion of the merc commander, as the IS does not traditionally consider PoWs as salvage.

Once captured trueborn warriors would generally became more docile, but they would fiercely resist any attempt to capture them as they knew that any chance of passing on their genetic legacy would likely be forever lost (with only a few exceptions).

[Nightlord01]

I don't believe that the head ejection system is as advanced as you seem to believe.  After all a home base should be a considerable distance from the front lines and it isn't likely that the system has that much fuel as it would pose a risk in itself if hit.  Do you have a canon source to support your statement?

The Hatchetman's revolutionary ejection system was designed so that the ejecting pilot could save at least a portion of his 'Mech. If compelled to leave his damaged 'Mech, he tilts his 'Mechs head backward and ignites rocket motors mounted under the nead, which disconnect the entire head assembly from the damaged 'Mech. The battle computer controls the two rockets at the back of the head to direct the head's flight. The computer also relies on the communications system to locate a friendly command centre or other safe point near friendly units.

Victory in battle is the primary source but a lesser source is claiming a bondsman before the battle is over.

I don't think I will ever understand the logic behind this.

[A. Lurker]

The actual rules for the full head ejection system (found on p. 310 of Tactical Operations) are a bit more limited than just "flies off the battlefield to safety", I fear.

Basically, if you're underwater and still unbreached when ejecting, the head will just bob to the surface and stay there. If you're not, then you can pick a hex within 12 hexes of your 'Mech (in the forward arc if prone, any arc otherwise) and make a PSR at +3 to land there, with failure indicating some bit of random scatter instead. You also make a second ejection roll to avoid a point of damage from the landing itself; you automatically take a point when just using the system, so this is to see whether you suffer a second one as well.

There's a bit more detail to it than that, but it's definitely not just a matter of some MechCommander shouting "Track that pod!" and the pilot being automatically picked up after the fight. (Well, possibly barring ejecting right off the map's home edge; I'm not sure that's strictly cricket since there technically aren't any actual hexes to pick there, but then the map edge is a somewhat arbitrary and artificial boundary in the first place and so I'd probably allow it if the edge was within that 12-hex range.)

[Archangel]

@Nightlord - And I was correct the head ejection system isn't as advanced as you previously claimed.  It isn't designed to automatically return to base.  What is stated in your quote is that the battle computer locates friendly positions for the MechWarrior to head towards on foot so that he, or she, can meet up with friendly forces.  It does not state that the head ejection system automatically returns the MechWarrior to base after being ejected regardless of whether the pilot is awake, unconscious or even dead.  Its basic Escape & Evasion for troops (especially pilots) caught away from friendly forces - find your location, find the best spot to meet up with friendly forces (which may or may not be the closest one), plan your trip to avoid enemy forces (which unless the soldier is lucky isn't a straight path or the easiest path) then start marching

I don't think I will ever understand the logic behind this.

The logic is pretty simple - to gain something regardless of the eventual outcome of the battle.  In the case of a defeat - "Well we might have lost the battle but at least we didn't leave empty handed."

Khan Jorgensson was able to see Ragnar's true value towards making the Ghost Bear's long-term plans (especially with the FRR populace under the Ghost Bear control) progress far more smoothly and deemed risking years of production and resources (in the form of the prefab factory and machinery) worth the chance of getting their hands on Ragnar.  He helped the Ghost Bears bridge the gap between the Ghost Bears and the local FRR (and to a lesser extension the Combine) inhabitants and his presence among the Ghost Bear touman eventually led to the merger of the Ghost Bears and the FRR remnant.

[Nightlord01]

@Nightlord - And I was correct the head ejection system isn't as advanced as you previously claimed.  It isn't designed to automatically return to base.  What is stated in your quote is that the battle computer locates friendly positions for the MechWarrior to head towards on foot so that he, or she, can meet up with friendly forces.  It does not state that the head ejection system automatically returns the MechWarrior to base after being ejected regardless of whether the pilot is awake, unconscious or even dead.  Its basic Escape & Evasion for troops (especially pilots) caught away from friendly forces - find your location, find the best spot to meet up with friendly forces (which may or may not be the closest one), plan your trip to avoid enemy forces (which unless the soldier is lucky isn't a straight path or the easiest path) then start marching

I never said it was that advanced, my point was that if you are looking to capture a mechwarrior in a game of BT after they have ejected, you can forget it if they have a full head ejection system, since they will be well and truly off the map.

The logic is pretty simple - to gain something regardless of the eventual outcome of the battle.  In the case of a defeat - "Well we might have lost the battle but at least we didn't leave empty handed."

snip

And this is the illogical part. Why does a system that prizes winning above nearly everything else allow the loser to claim a reward? I can see the logic of doing it if you are on the losing side, I can't see the logic of allowing it as a society.

[Archangel]

I never said it was that advanced, my point was that if you are looking to capture a mechwarrior in a game of BT after they have ejected, you can forget it if they have a full head ejection system, since they will be well and truly off the map.

Actually you did.

They are designed to return to base, with or without pilot interaction.

You may have meant to say that they were designed to clear the immediate area but it comes across as they were designed to automatically return to base.

And this is the illogical part. Why does a system that prizes winning above nearly everything else allow the loser to claim a reward? I can see the logic of doing it if you are on the losing side, I can't see the logic of allowing it as a society.

Not necessarily.  One can look at it as an individual warrior claiming a personal victory over an opponent.  After the warrior's parent unit is granted hegira, he is simple leaving with his personally claimed isorla.  Consider Isabelle Pryde's disposition.  Claimed in an earlier battle during the Refusal War by Clan Wolf, her personal honor didn't allow her to return to becoming a Jade Falcon after their final victory.  Of course in a total victory, the victorious unit the captured warrior is likely going to be recovered.

[mbear]

In the aftermath of a battle, what is the chance that a pilot is captured?  For example, what happens to clan pilots captured by the inner sphere?  What is the chance / probability that an individual warrior is captured, and is automatic that they become (and except) bondsman to an inner sphere house / merc unit?  I ask because my players are currently fighting through Operation Bulldog, and I wonder what will happen to the pilots of the clan mechs that they capture.  Will they automatically join the Inner Sphere?  Will the players merc unit be allowed to keep them, or would the House unit they are contracted to claim them?

A dedicated Crusader might invoke bondsref, choosing death rather than serving with a unit of mercenaries. IMHO, the captured Clanners will see themselves as bondsmen/isorla to the forces that capture them. If your players say "Hey Clan Guy go with this officer from a regular unit" then the Clanners probably will. (As an example Phelan Kell was isorla to Vlad Ward originally, but Khan Ulric Kerensky stepped in and said "Hey, he's mine.") If they stick around, they'll do what they can to prove that they're actually worthy warriors. One of the Twilight of the Clans novels has a nice description of how a captured Clanner behaves as a part of Task Force Serpent which might be useful.

The various intelligence services of the Inner Sphere would probably be all over the prisoners trying to get all the information they can get. If your players hang onto them, great. If they assign them to go with a regular unit officer, they'll probably end up in a POW camp on Dieron and eventually be liberated in the Jihad.

[Battleclad]

There's a bit more detail to it than that, but it's definitely not just a matter of some MechCommander shouting "Track that pod!" and the pilot being automatically picked up after the fight. (Well, possibly barring ejecting right off the map's home edge; I'm not sure that's strictly cricket since there technically aren't any actual hexes to pick there, but then the map edge is a somewhat arbitrary and artificial boundary in the first place and so I'd probably allow it if the edge was within that 12-hex range.)

In theory most units would have a dedicated recovery unit that runs out to collect ejected pods before the battle even ends anyway, we just on't exactly use them on the tabletop and no author has thought of including them in any fiction. Still I'd be highly surprised if there wasn't a VTOL or Heli lurking around just to recover Pilots, at least considering real world tactics. But that's logic and that never goes well with BT.

[Archangel]

In theory most units would have a dedicated recovery unit that runs out to collect ejected pods before the battle even ends anyway, we just on't exactly use them on the tabletop and no author has thought of including them in any fiction. Still I'd be highly surprised if there wasn't a VTOL or Heli lurking around just to recover Pilots, at least considering real world tactics. But that's logic and that never goes well with BT.

The problem with SAR units is that they are highly susceptible to enemy fire and if just lurking about they can be easily mistaken for an artillery spotter.  Even in RL, SAR prefer going in quickly and getting out quickly.  They prefer to avoid "lurking around" to avoid being spotted and possibly shot at no matter how secure the airspace may be.

They would be dedicated to rescuing friendly pilots (MechWarrior and Aerospace) not equipment (if necessary that would be a separate team).    I believe Michael Stackpole used one (at least technically it was a SAR) VTOL in the early stages of the Battle of Luthien to recover Shin Yodama after he crashed his Skulker to kill the Elemental trying to get in.

[Acolyte]

Have you taken a look at the SAR rules in StratOps? Yep, I'd say that SAR for downed pilots would be pretty commonplace. My 'Merc unit has Ferrets equipped for SAR complete with a Valkyrie (the winged woman in armour, not the 'Mech) painted on the bottom for the downed troops to see.

   - Shane

[Archangel]

Have you taken a look at the SAR rules in StratOps? Yep, I'd say that SAR for downed pilots would be pretty commonplace. My 'Merc unit has Ferrets equipped for SAR complete with a Valkyrie (the winged woman in armour, not the 'Mech) painted on the bottom for the downed troops to see.

   - Shane

Who said they weren't common?  I certainly didn't.

I was simply disputing Battleclad's belief that there was a "dedicated recovery unit that runs out to collect ejected pods before the battle even ends".  SAR teams are dedicated to rescuing friendly forces in danger of being captured and do not worry about recover a head ejection system unless specifically ordered (and that order would likely revolve about denying vital information to the enemy rather than recovering the entire system).  Do you use your Ferrets to recover pilots and their ejected pods (or even just the ejection seat) or simply the pilot?

The only other team that regularly enters the battlefield before the fighting is over, the Ravens' R-Teams, are general salvage recovery teams recovering anything they can get their hands (or talons) on and don't focus on recovering pilots or their head ejection systems (don't believe the Clans field many of those in the first place).  Everybody else waits at least until the fighting has moved far enough away before moving in.

[Acolyte]

Actually, I was more agreeing with you. :) Salvage has the advantage of not requiring a "Golden Hour" like pilots often do. It'll still be there provided you win the battle so it can wait.

   - Shane

[CrossfirePilot]

I seem to remember a Battletech Magazine had a SAR vehicle in it.  I think it was "Stardate" the same one that showcased the Longbow.

[Nightlord01]

Actually you did.

You may have meant to say that they were designed to clear the immediate area but it comes across as they were designed to automatically return to base.

No, I said exactly what I meant, you simply interpreted that to mean more than it did. It was a simple statement, for a simplified method of tracking these things in game, and largely incidental to the entire suggestion I was making about how to track captured pilots.

Not necessarily.  One can look at it as an individual warrior claiming a personal victory over an opponent.  After the warrior's parent unit is granted hegira, he is simple leaving with his personally claimed isorla.  Consider Isabelle Pryde's disposition.  Claimed in an earlier battle during the Refusal War by Clan Wolf, her personal honor didn't allow her to return to becoming a Jade Falcon after their final victory.  Of course in a total victory, the victorious unit the captured warrior is likely going to be recovered.

Still completely illogical, because by that methodology, any Clan warrior who gets shot out of their mech/fighter/tank therefore becomes a bondsman of the Clan warrior that shot them down.

[Battleclad]

The problem with SAR units is that they are highly susceptible to enemy fire and if just lurking about they can be easily mistaken for an artillery spotter.  Even in RL, SAR prefer going in quickly and getting out quickly.  They prefer to avoid "lurking around" to avoid being spotted and possibly shot at no matter how secure the airspace may be.

They would be dedicated to rescuing friendly pilots (MechWarrior and Aerospace) not equipment (if necessary that would be a separate team).    I believe Michael Stackpole used one (at least technically it was a SAR) VTOL in the early stages of the Battle of Luthien to recover Shin Yodama after he crashed his Skulker to kill the Elemental trying to get in.

By recovery I didn't mean equipment, although I could see SAR units with magclamps to simply grab a pod or head. Further by lurking around I didn't mean it as you said, by lurking around I mean in standby near the battlefield. Although be to be honest I wasn't precise in my post, I simply assumed the implied information would be a natural assumption.

[mbear]

Still completely illogical, because by that methodology, any Clan warrior who gets shot out of their mech/fighter/tank therefore becomes a bondsman of the Clan warrior that shot them down.

Not if you think of it as a CYA move.

Star Commander: "Aff Star Colonel I did lose the Trial of Possession for the factory. I did capture this bondsman however, who can tell us all about the defenses."
Star Colonel: "Disappointing that you did not win the Trial, but at least we got something out of it. I will not challenge you to a Trial of Grievance for this failure."

[Karasu]

I seem to remember a Battletech Magazine had a SAR vehicle in it.  I think it was "Stardate" the same one that showcased the Longbow.

Indeed there was.  The Wombat, unarmed SAR VTOL and its armed cousing the Wombat Mk II.  Very strange looking vehicles IIRC.

[GhostCat]

Not if you think of it as a CYA move.

Star Commander: "Aff Star Colonel I did lose the Trial of Possession for the factory. I did capture this bondsman however, who can tell us all about the defenses."
Star Colonel: "Disappointing that you did not win the Trial, but at least we got something out of it. I will not challenge you to a Trial of Grievance for this failure."

Lets us hope that the Star Colonel doesn't stop to wonder why everyone else is laughing.

The word Decoy never entered my mind.  No, not at all.

GC

[Nightlord01]

Not if you think of it as a CYA move.

Star Commander: "Aff Star Colonel I did lose the Trial of Possession for the factory. I did capture this bondsman however, who can tell us all about the defenses."
Star Colonel: "Disappointing that you did not win the Trial, but at least we got something out of it. I will not challenge you to a Trial of Grievance for this failure."

Indeed, it is something that makes sense to do but not something that is logical to allow.

It turns warriors into playing cards, where they would change sides multiple times throughout the campaign as their mechs got destroyed. The Clans never seemed to be big on consolation prizes.

[Archangel]

Several things you have to remember.  First, usually captured Clan warriors spend time as bondsmen before becoming a warrior again.  They need to prove their worth and loyalty to their new Clan before having their bondcord cut. They aren't likely to be given the opportunity to do so until after the current battle is over.  Some bondsmen are never given that opportunity, such as a freeborn captured by Clan Smoke Jaguar which doesn't allow freeborns into their touman.  Second, there is a chance that in the process of being defeated that they are injured further delaying their return to combat.  Third, their standing with their new Clan helps determine which unit they are assigned to which in turn helps determine how likely they are to have a chance of entering combat and earn personal glory/honor.  A Warden warrior captured by a Crusader Clan is more likely to be assigned to a lesser unit away from combat.  Fourth, if a warrior is repeatedly captured by another Clan, then sooner rather than later people are going to question whether that warrior is (a) worth the effort and (b) worthy of becoming one of their Clan's warriors.

[Col Toda]

Clan bondsmen particularly Mech warriors do no fit in a unit that field solders and the mentality of such .  So I tend to use them to supplement my techs until which time I lose them in a trail of possession to their original clan or some other form of exchange or repatriation .  I would try to keep Clan techs ; Aerospace pilots and infantry as the warrior mentality is either compatible with their role or is muted by necessity such as infantry troops .

[Archangel]

Unfortunately Clans generally do not care about recovering Clan warriors captured by IS forces.  Either you exchange them at the end of the battle/planetary campaign or they are yours to deal with.  The only times I recall Clans exchanging prisoners with IS forces was at the end of the Battle of Tukayyid and Battle of Coventry.

[tbrminsanity]

In the aftermath of a battle, what is the chance that a pilot is captured?  For example, what happens to clan pilots captured by the inner sphere?  What is the chance / probability that an individual warrior is captured, and is automatic that they become (and except) bondsman to an inner sphere house / merc unit?  I ask because my players are currently fighting through Operation Bulldog, and I wonder what will happen to the pilots of the clan mechs that they capture.  Will they automatically join the Inner Sphere?  Will the players merc unit be allowed to keep them, or would the House unit they are contracted to claim them?

You should really check out the Battletech TV show (you can find the episodes on YouTube).  There is an episode that covers this.  Essentially, in the first stages of the war, when no one knew better, Clan Warriors would be willing to become Bondsmen to smart and superior warriors, but the Inner Sphere were wary of them.  This would lead to animosity between the Clan POW and the IS nation.  If the warrior was able to return to their Clan they would spread word of the unworthy IS surrats, and from that point on the Clan Warriors would not offer themselves as Bondsmen ever again.  In the reverse, any IS warrior that was willing to become a Bondsmen (Kell being the best example) would be allowed as this was a sign that the IS surrat had accepted that the Clans were the Star League returned and they had been rightfully converted.  Those that fought against becoming a bondsmen, remained the POW dogs they deserved to be.
As pointed above, this opinion would change from Clan to Clan, and IS Nation to IS Nation.

[Archangel]

In the BT Universe, the television series is a holo series loosely based upon Adam Steiner's exploits and it is considered of questionable value as a source.

[tbrminsanity]

In the BT Universe, the television series is a holo series loosely based upon Adam Steiner's exploits and it is considered of questionable value as a source.

I agree, the TV series is far from gospel.
It does mirror other BT resources in the initial interactions between the IS and the Clans.  It is reasonable to assume that the average Clanner would use their own mindset to see their enemy, and before meeting the dishonourable IS surrats, all other opponents did consider Clan etiquette.  Becoming bondsmen to a superior warrior (even if they are not Clanners) isn't unheard of, especially if the warrior fought with honour and used tactics that the Clans approve of.  Likewise, any opponent that accepts Clan Society once captured (as shown in the BT cartoon with the one LC captive) would be accepted as Bondsmen willingly (though the re-integration time would likely be longer than the average Freeborn Clansmen).

[Archangel]

The problem is that the only occasions where the IS had the opportunity to capture Clan warriors honorably were extraordinary occasions - Wolcott, Luthien, Twycross and Tukayyid.  In pretty much all other occasions the Clans' superior technology and warriors either overwhelmed their Inner Sphere opponents or the IS used dezgra tactics to achieve "victory".

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

The problem is that the only occasions where the IS had the opportunity to capture Clan warriors honorably were extraordinary occasions - Wolcott, Luthien, Twycross and Tukayyid.

  Every encounter was an opportunity to capture Clanners honorably and they were many. A fight in compliance with Clan standards of honorable combat risks higher losses that many forces may not want to pay. War isn't about capturing enemy pilots but defeating their units, taking ground and capturing stuff.

Picking up a handful of one-dimensional, whiny, primadonna pilots may not be much of a gain at all.

  My players found out that the best way to defeat the Clans using their rules is to never use 'Mechs with canon designs -Even a 3025-era zombiemech will take down Clan Omnis with the right design then once they got a hold of Clan tech, facing Clanners is less a challenge.