How big is the IS compared to the rest of the Galaxy?

[Daemion]

I've always been curious about how big the Inner Sphere happens to be compared to the galactic plane, let alone how big it looks compared to the rest of the Milky Way.  One reason is because of the 2D rendering of the space maps.  But, are there actually two more directions one can go? 

And, also, I'm curious how it would scale to, say, the UFP of Star Trek or the Imperium from 40k.

I could easily look up the numbers:
100,000 LY across and 1000 LY thick across the disk, except for the 12,000 LY thick bulge at the center.

So, with the IS being nominally 1000 LY across, it looks like it can potentially fill the galactic disk around the Earth (Terra).  But, how does that look on a galactic map?

Kinda wish we had some visual to be able to grasp the 1% space the IS takes up.  Was that ever done?

 

[Mendrugo]

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:MilkyWay.jpg

[tassa_kay]

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:MilkyWay.jpg

Oh, the added overlay really helps here with visualizing the distances involved.

[tassa_kay]

And, also, I'm curious how it would scale to, say, the UFP of Star Trek or the Imperium from 40k.

Per the First Contact movie, the Federation spans 8,000 light-years, but is much less densely populated planet-wise than the Inner Sphere.

[I am Belch II]

This was a overlay with some of the real space objects out there.

[glitterboy2098]

i trust the official catalyst map more, since a lot of fan maps have issues with scaling and view angle. and iirc that fan map came out before this official one. which helps explain why it was made with the inner sphere upsidedown and backwards relative to the surrounding space. (or more specifically, they picked the wrong orientation for their real space map) they have Vela on the wrong side, and too far out, the california nebula is on the wrong sides of the IS, same for orion..


https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:Deep_Periphery_-_lg.png

to give some context.. this is an older galaxy map made by Witchell Winchell Chung of Atomic Rockets. the inner sphere is entirely hidden by the dot indicating the sun, and the edge of explored deep periphery is where the map has the dot "orion nebula" and "california nebula"


yes they overlap on this map. humanity has explored less than 1% of 1% of the galaxy, and settled even less.

here is an up to date milky way map btw, using the most recent astronomical knowledge about its shape and layout.

the inner sphere and deep periphery lies within the tiny zone around the sun between the Gould belt and the orion nebula markings.


if we zoom in closer, we learn some interesting stuff. like how most of the inner sphere proper lies with in the "local bubble", a supernova remnant a thousand plus light years across where the density of material in interstellar space is 1/10th the average for the rest of the  galaxy.

[Daryk]

I believe that's "Winchell Chung", but otherwise an outstanding reference! :)

[glitterboy2098]

I believe that's "Winchell Chung", but otherwise an outstanding reference! :)

thanks for the correction.. i was writing from memory and i'm bad with names. i should have double checked.

[Daryk]

No worries, and just happy to help! :)

[I am Belch II]

1% of the galaxy is not a lot compared to the whole thing. But it still takes 40+ weeks to go from one side to the other so its all relative.

[Daemion]

Well, it would actually only be .1% once you bring area into the equation.  1 percent of the width, combined with 1 percent of the breadth.

Thanks, guys!  This was really informative.

[Pat Payne]

.
 
And, also, I'm curious how it would scale to, say, the UFP of Star Trek or the Imperium from 40k.

The Federation is at least an order of magnitude larger than the Inner Sphere, going by official and semi-official maps. You could reasonably fit a number of Inner Spheres in the space the Federation takes up, going by some of the charts. Oddly, you could also fit all of Charted Space from Traveller a few times over in the space the Federation takes up as well.

But even the UFP is dinky compared to the Known Space of Warhammer 40K. Given their "bigger is better, so bigg-est must be better-est" mentality, charted space in the 40K-verse looks to take in most of the Milky Way at a minimum.

[idea weenie]

Well, it would actually only be .1% once you bring area into the equation.  1 percent of the width, combined with 1 percent of the breadth.

Thanks, guys!  This was really informative.

 

1% * 1% = .01%

(1/100 * 1/100 = 1/10 000)

[Gladius-XC]

In the online game Elite Dangerous, there is a procedurally generated galaxy with 400 billion systems. In the decade that it has existed, players have only discovered .059% of the galaxy, despite having travelled completely across the galaxy.  Suffice to say that the 1000 LY breadth of the Inner Sphere is a drop in the bucket.

[Daemion]

1% * 1% = .01%

(1/100 * 1/100 = 1/10 000)

Thanks.  I was wondering when someone would correct me on that.

[Prospernia]

Me, in my humble opinion, that between each, "Habitable", world, there should be several scores of uninhabitable-systems to have to jump through.  But that's me and my modern-studies in astronomy talkin'. 

[HABeas2]

i trust the official catalyst map more, since a lot of fan maps have issues with scaling and view angle. and iirc that fan map came out before this official one. which helps explain why it was made with the inner sphere upsidedown and backwards relative to the surrounding space. (or more specifically, they picked the wrong orientation for their real space map) they have Vela on the wrong side, and too far out, the california nebula is on the wrong sides of the IS, same for orion..

All told, it was a real-life star chart very similar to that which we used to create the "official" Deep Periphery Map. We noted several astronomical features (though, of course, hardly ALL of them) lined up well with the Inner Sphere, but only when the IS map was reversed and flipped over.

That was many a year ago, though.

- Herb

[Aotrs Commander]

It's even less than 0.01%, since the values given above are area, not volume.

It is, admittedly, astoundingly difficult to represent a 3D map, especially one at a galactic scale in a comprehensible way.

(Which is why when I did what constitutes a map for my stuff, it was very, very crude, since it would be impossible for me do to anything like a 3D map because it would be phenominally complicated (bordergore like a bad game of Crusader Kings II only in 3D).

[VhenRa]

100,000 LY across

If I recall they've since realized their numbers were off... its closer to 200kly across by current estimations.

[Cdpkrtnvr23]

If I recall they've since realized their numbers were off... its closer to 200kly across by current estimations.

Google says the latest estimates are still about 100,000 light years.

[Charistoph]

If I were to make an analogy.  Think of your average sidewalk section.  That's either the Inner Sphere or explored space, somewhere in there.

Now think of your average metropolis and that is the galaxy.

Which always reminds me of that quote at the beginning of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
“Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.”

[glitterboy2098]

Google says the latest estimates are still about 100,000 light years.

my understanding is that the larger estimates are currently stuck in a lot of academic debate, much of it revolving around the validity of the measuring methods, the processing of the data, and just exactly how one defines the "edge" of a galaxy.

so you know, the usual.

[Charistoph]

Well, it's kind of hard to tell when we're in the middle of one side and we likely won't have anything that can see it all from above the galaxy's ecliptic any time soon.

[marauder648]

The funny thing is that in theory, the jump speed of the Inner Sphere, even with a week long cooldown is probably faster than Warp Speed from ST.

The standard jump distance is 30LY max, it can be pushed but with a rapidly escalating chance of failure so lets say you do a 30LY jump.
A Star Trek ship going along at Warp 6 (because they'd probably not charge around everywhere at full speed) does 2.4LY a day, meaning that its about 12.5 days to do 30LY. In that time the Jump Ships charged and jumped ahead another 30LY.

The delay may be long but because the distance covered is pretty darn fast, the KF drive is surprisingly 'fast' in an odd way :D

[Daemion]

It's even less than 0.01%, since the values given above are area, not volume.

It is, admittedly, astoundingly difficult to represent a 3D map, especially one at a galactic scale in a comprehensible way.

(Which is why when I did what constitutes a map for my stuff, it was very, very crude, since it would be impossible for me do to anything like a 3D map because it would be phenominally complicated (bordergore like a bad game of Crusader Kings II only in 3D).

Only if you want to treat the Inner Sphere as an honest sphere.  But, I pointed out that the Galaxy is a disk, and one that's nominally considered 1000 ly thick.  And, the breadth of the IS is 1000 ly.  I'm assuming that the depth of the IS is also 1000 ly.  So, it could be looked at as the Inner Disk instead of the Inner Sphere.  So, volume can be discarded in that light when comparing the IS to the rest of the Galaxy.

But, the volume aspect does bring up the interesting question of whether systems that look 30 ly away from one another actually are once you bring in the 3rd dimension. Everything is measured from Terra, so that would skew 3d measurements compressed into 2d.

It's kinda like how the 2d maps of the Earth are skewed the more you go toward the pole, making the north and south portions look bigger than they actually are. 

[glitterboy2098]

The funny thing is that in theory, the jump speed of the Inner Sphere, even with a week long cooldown is probably faster than Warp Speed from ST.

The standard jump distance is 30LY max, it can be pushed but with a rapidly escalating chance of failure so lets say you do a 30LY jump.
A Star Trek ship going along at Warp 6 (because they'd probably not charge around everywhere at full speed) does 2.4LY a day, meaning that its about 12.5 days to do 30LY. In that time the Jump Ships charged and jumped ahead another 30LY.

The delay may be long but because the distance covered is pretty darn fast, the KF drive is surprisingly 'fast' in an odd way :D

agreed. even using the faster TNG warp scale a jump drive could easily outpace a warp 5 ship, which is the "galactic speed limit" for most vessels in the alpha quadrant. (few civilian vessels can go faster, and most of the military vessels got limited to those speeds due to the damage their drives do to space..though that bit was being fixed post-DS9 with new drive designs. but even the ships with those new drives seem to stick to it.. Voyager's stated offscreen travel times for example averages out to about warp 5 cruising, and they did more than warp 6 on screen except in emergencies)
and using the ENT/TOS/TMP warp scale, which is even slower (albeit with more gradation involved) a jump drive could easily outpace even fast ships like the constitution class.

the big limitation of jump drives is that they are discontinuous drives, going point to point without crossing the intervening space. which limits your ability to detect things in between (especially if you only have STL sensors like in BT), and the need for the lengthy recharge period, which makes you more vulnerable to attack since you can't just warp out when an enemy approaches. not to mention the jump point limitation. in a war between a warp civilization and a KF drive civilization, the warp civilization would probably win most of the defensive battles, since they could easily station ships outside a jump point boundary and ambush the jumpship or any dropships it send in system.
but offensively unless it had TNG levels of warp drive speeds, it would have strategic mobility limitations.

[Charistoph]

And yet, the Jump Drive of the Asimov's Empire of Man was far more efficient.  Energy storage wasn't the problem there.  Accuracy was.  Most pilots would take a week for calculations so they wouldn't end up in the wrong place.  But, that's with 50's calculation systems at play.

When Asimov readdressed the end point of that universe with the last 2 Foundation books, he had a ship doing multiple rapid jumps so the protag was half way across the galaxy in half an hour, and it could have gone farther if their destination had been further.

I only mention that because Battletech's Jump Drive is clearly patterned (though, not exactly, obviously) after the same concept as Asimov's Robots/Empire/Foundation Jump Drive.  BT's problem being the sensitivity of the energy storage used for the Jump Drive.  If it wasn't for that, travel across the Sphere would be much faster, and that doesn't even address how quickly one could go between the Pentagon Worlds and the Sphere if that recharge time didn't need to be so long for safety reasons.

[VhenRa]

As far as warp goes?

ENT/TOS scale a KF Drive [using max distance and fastest possible safe recharging, so somewhat unrealistically] comes out to about Warp 11.5. NCC-1701 Enterprise maxes out at Warp 8 for their max safe sprint speed. [For context: 8 is about 512c, 11.5 is about ~1500c]

Warp 11.5 TOS is about Warp 9 TNG scale.

[Given stated distances and times for Voyager, that 70 years from home... was assuming they'd be cruising at Warp 8 the whole time. Somewhat optimistic]

[Using what I'd consider somewhat more realistic assumptions for KF Drive... it's probably closer to 10.7/8.5]

[Daemion]

Regarding Voyager: That show came post TNG speed limit.  But, remember that the reason the speed limit was implemented wasn't because of the damage from a single passing. It was repeat passings across limited lanes from frequent traffic.  And, to be pedantic, it was damage to subspace, not real space.

Basically, it's similar to how highways and roads work on Earth, now.  More traffic will see the rapid onset of wear and tear compared to roads that see even a small handful of cars daily, if that, lasting years. 

Voyager would be bee-lining to the Alpha quadrant, and arguably the only ship to take that path.  So they wouldn't have to be beholden to the 'speed limit' for subspace concerns.  They would only be limited to engine fatigue issues.

[Aotrs Commander]

Star Trek has just about the slowest FTL drives I think of, with possible exception of a) Red Dwarf and b) 40K (given how fundamentally unreliable it is...)



The speed limit was also definitely case of Writers Do Not Understand Scale; the idea that even if it was credible that ships flew repeated along the exact same bit of space[1], it could't have been addressed by just Moving A Bit To The Side and scattering the transit path (how big was that anomoly, really? In actual terms of the galaxy giving a frack?) was really kind of silly. They let the message and analogy really overwrite sense. TNG wasn't immune to Stupid Plots, even if in hindsight Voyager got the worst of those... (A cursory look at Memory Alpha also suggestes the production crew wasn't even very keen on that episode, either...)



[1]With an FTL system explictly NOT limited to jump-points or hyperlanes...

[Charistoph]

That doesn't even consider some of the FTL travel that don't incorporate FTL drives.  I'm not talking Jump Gates, but like the Hyperspace in Babylon 5 or most of David Weber's books where you go there, can't travel FTL, but a mile there is like 100 miles in real space, and you can go deeper to get a deeper ratio of distances.

[VhenRa]

Star Trek has just about the slowest FTL drives I think of, with possible exception of a) Red Dwarf and b) 40K (given how fundamentally unreliable it is...)

Oh there is slower. Traveller is really slow.

[idea weenie]

Star Trek has just about the slowest FTL drives I think of, with possible exception of a) Red Dwarf and b) 40K (given how fundamentally unreliable it is...)

40k still has ships that travel from the outer rim of the galaxy and make it to Terra in time to get a psyker approved by the Emperor, and sent back out to be a battlefield aide (or astropath, or all the other psyker jobs).  So even just from the galactic core to Terra and back is ~60,000 light years, and it is within a human's lifetime (likely less than a decade).

The key problem as you said is that WH40k's warp space is not empty.

The speed limit was also definitely case of Writers Do Not Understand Scale; the idea that even if it was credible that ships flew repeated along the exact same bit of space[1], it could't have been addressed by just Moving A Bit To The Side and scattering the transit path (how big was that anomoly, really? In actual terms of the galaxy giving a frack?) was really kind of silly. They let the message and analogy really overwrite sense. TNG wasn't immune to Stupid Plots, even if in hindsight Voyager got the worst of those... (A cursory look at Memory Alpha also suggestes the production crew wasn't even very keen on that episode, either...)

[1]With an FTL system explictly NOT limited to jump-points or hyperlanes...

The story for that episode had the ships needing to travel along a thin path (space weather/'terrain'), and after the anomaly occurred then ships nearby using their engines would also cause the anomaly to increase in size.  Like a set of cars that have to drive over a bridge, and after one side of the bridge gets a hole in it the other side of the bridge will be affected too.  For the rest fo the Federation you have had transports that tend to take the more efficient routes between systems, causing more 'wear and tear' on certain parts of space.  So the damage would primarily occur near inhabited systems, preferably towards those with larger populations, you have to stay away from the locations completely, and there is no way to patch the hole in space.  This would see the Federation broken apart into multiple individual worlds with the highly industrialized/populated worlds unable to help others.  The situation was so bad that the Federation passed the data on to the Klingons and Romulans so they would not cause their own disaster (and likely as soon as the Cardassians or Federation made contact with the Dominion, the data was passed on to them too).

imagine if something happened in Battletech that was caused by BT's super-efficient fusion drives.  For the paths between the planet and the Jump Points this is not an issue, but in planet's orbit you have to shift to another engine system.  Depending on the radius of effect, you might have certain points on the planet's orbit where for 3-4 days each way no ship can arrive because space is breaking.

That doesn't even consider some of the FTL travel that don't incorporate FTL drives.  I'm not talking Jump Gates, but like the Hyperspace in Babylon 5 or most of David Weber's books where you go there, can't travel FTL, but a mile there is like 100 miles in real space, and you can go deeper to get a deeper ratio of distances.

Starfire had a setup with wormholes connecting every star system.  Some have more connections, some have fewer, but that is the only practical way to travel from system to system.  So STL in-system, and FTL only via the wormholes.  This means a defender knows where the attacker will emerge, but not when.

Oh there is slower. Traveller is really slow.

Very true.  Traveller has a speed of 6 parsecs per week top speed, and the entire time the ship is in warp space.  So you can't even set up Command Circuits.  You can jump as soon as the ship gets refueled, but anyone on board has to wait a week before arriving.  Contrast that with BT's Jumpships where a Jumpship can jump near-instantly, drop off a Dropship, the Dropship transfers to another Jumpship, the second Jumpship jumps, etc.

[Daemion]

And, that makes the command circuit the fastest approach to BT jump travel.  However, you can get something somewhere between Command Circuit and Long Haul Ride.  The JS flashes in, and the DS transfers, but has a day or two lay-over because it's ride to the next destination is almost recharged but not quite there yet.

Which is why I'm pretty fond of the notion that there are many, many more JumpShips per system than we've been given in some books dedicated to space travel.

[glitterboy2098]

40k still has ships that travel from the outer rim of the galaxy and make it to Terra in time to get a psyker approved by the Emperor, and sent back out to be a battlefield aide (or astropath, or all the other psyker jobs).  So even just from the galactic core to Terra and back is ~60,000 light years, and it is within a human's lifetime (likely less than a decade).

The key problem as you said is that WH40k's warp space is not empty.

40k's warp travel is really inconsistant.. sometimes a trip of hundreds of ly might only take a few days, sometimes it might take weeks. worse, the elapsed time on the ship does not match that outside the warp.. that same trip that took a few days (onboard) might show up months or years later measured from normal space.. or even months or years before it left. there is a canonical incident of an ork warboss that led a Waagh!, conquered some planets then on the trip to the next one his fleet passed through some warp weirdness, and came out back at their starting point the day before it left for the Waagh!.. at which point the warboss went down to the planet, and killed the earlier version of himself so he could have an extra copy of his favorite custom pistol.

[elf25s]

And yet, the Jump Drive of the Asimov's Empire of Man was far more efficient.  Energy storage wasn't the problem there.  Accuracy was.  Most pilots would take a week for calculations so they wouldn't end up in the wrong place.  But, that's with 50's calculation systems at play.

When Asimov readdressed the end point of that universe with the last 2 Foundation books, he had a ship doing multiple rapid jumps so the protag was half way across the galaxy in half an hour, and it could have gone farther if their destination had been further.

I only mention that because Battletech's Jump Drive is clearly patterned (though, not exactly, obviously) after the same concept as Asimov's Robots/Empire/Foundation Jump Drive.  BT's problem being the sensitivity of the energy storage used for the Jump Drive.  If it wasn't for that, travel across the Sphere would be much faster, and that doesn't even address how quickly one could go between the Pentagon Worlds and the Sphere if that recharge time didn't need to be so long for safety reasons.

i recall that asimovs ftl had no limit how far it could go...what stopped it was the accuracy golan travize did explain this to pelorat when they left terminus and golan was testing the ship. in shirt novel in robots the 2 engeneers that involuntarly susan calvin explained how supposed;y drive worked and why robotic calculating machines blew up or seized to function. basically matter using the asimvs ftl is disintigrated and re assembled at destination at same time which takes no time . but from bt ftl it sounds like ftl punches a hole through universe which takes days sometimes. according to some stories you can see ships image days before it arrives at its jump point in star trek warp just folds space onto itself and ship is propelled to tychon realm and moves through it like a cherry pit being squeezed between fingers. on star wars it seems that ships ftl is more of a jump to higher or lower dimension where universe still interacts with it.

[guardiandashi]

i recall that asimovs ftl had no limit how far it could go...what stopped it was the accuracy golan travize did explain this to pelorat when they left terminus and golan was testing the ship. in shirt novel in robots the 2 engeneers that involuntarly susan calvin explained how supposed;y drive worked and why robotic calculating machines blew up or seized to function. basically matter using the asimvs ftl is disintigrated and re assembled at destination at same time which takes no time . but from bt ftl it sounds like ftl punches a hole through universe which takes days sometimes. according to some stories you can see ships image days before it arrives at its jump point in star trek warp just folds space onto itself and ship is propelled to tychon realm and moves through it like a cherry pit being squeezed between fingers. on star wars it seems that ships ftl is more of a jump to higher or lower dimension where universe still interacts with it.

its not quite that simple.
not sure about asmov's foundation version because that is something I haven't read.

battletechs FTL punches a hole (kind of) through space but the time weirdness is more due to the fact that the drive initialization takes time to occur. My personal interpretation is that the drive turns on, and starts modifying space at both ends of the jump simultaneously. there is a ramp up period where space gets more and more distorted at both ends, (you start seeing preimages of the ship at the destination) then it actually transitions the so called time weirdness is actually not something that breaks causality but errors in the "interpretation of simultaneously)

in star trek warp drives the best explanation (image) is that the warp drive compresses space in front of the ship and expands it back behind the ship. the ship then "surfs" across the top of the waves so effectively travels a shorter distance.
the kirk and older ships generate a single wave.  the STNG ships with there tandem warp nacelles (all multiples of 2 or 4) generate 2 sets of waves, essentially 1 nacelle /pair pulls a wave into space, and the second pulls another wave into the already warped space.


in star wars the honor verse and similar that use "hyperdrives" the hyperdrive phases the ship into an alternate dimension that point for point matches the "normal" dimension but the hyperspace dimension (or dimensions) are functionally smaller.  so a distance that in "normal space is 10 light years is functionally 1 light year (or less) ant the ships travel through the compressed dimensions and then come back to the main dimension near or at their destination.

the honorverse (honor Harrington by david weber) has "bands" of hyperspace Alpha Beta Gama etc. each set of bands correspond to a set of dimensions with a range of alternate universal distances. IE lets say Alpha is 9 to 1 ly/10 ly then beta would be say 100 ly is 9-1 ly per 100 ly etc.

[Charistoph]

Starfire had a setup with wormholes connecting every star system.  Some have more connections, some have fewer, but that is the only practical way to travel from system to system.  So STL in-system, and FTL only via the wormholes.  This means a defender knows where the attacker will emerge, but not when.

Those are Jump Points, and still require a drive to access them.  Wing Commander operates under the same concepts.  Still, there isn't anything to make travel between them any faster.

Freespace has Jump Points, too, but they operate more like a cross between the Jump Points of Starfire/Wing Commander, in that they connect two points, but also like Babylon 5/Honorverse in that you experience and spend time traveling in the space provided, and your STL speed will affect your time in the Jump.

The interesting things here is nothing about how one accesses FTL to speeds things up, much like Battletech's or Asimov's Jump Drive.

i recall that asimovs ftl had no limit how far it could go...what stopped it was the accuracy golan travize did explain this to pelorat when they left terminus and golan was testing the ship. in shirt novel in robots the 2 engeneers that involuntarly susan calvin explained how supposed;y drive worked and why robotic calculating machines blew up or seized to function. basically matter using the asimvs ftl is disintigrated and re assembled at destination at same time which takes no time . but from bt ftl it sounds like ftl punches a hole through universe which takes days sometimes. according to some stories you can see ships image days before it arrives at its jump point in star trek warp just folds space onto itself and ship is propelled to tychon realm and moves through it like a cherry pit being squeezed between fingers. on star wars it seems that ships ftl is more of a jump to higher or lower dimension where universe still interacts with it.

I've not heard that it takes days to do the travel.  Every source says that the travel itself is instantaneous.  While the Jump Drive may take a minute or two to spool up, and present an IR signature to the arrival site prior to the Jump itself.  Part of this, I think, is to for the computer to scan it to make sure it can arrive there before causing Bad Things to happen to the ship on emergence.

What takes days is charging up the "battery" of the Jump Drive itself.  The amount of power is not as big as one thinks, but that the battery can only be safely charged at a certain rate.  A Jump Ship can technically Jump within hours of arriving at its new location, provided they are willing to burn a lot of their Drive fuel to do it, but the odds of a MisJump which can damage the Drive are really really high (like roll a 11 or 12 to avoid, I can't remember the exact number), leaving one exactly where they are with no where to go till it is repaired.

[Daemion]

Yup, the sensitivity of the recharge is why they prefer unspooling a giant solar sail in order to use the gentle caress of solar radiation, even at the height of the Star League, centuries after the whole technology was invented and presumably refined.

[guardiandashi]

babylon 5's FTL was essentially a hyperdrive model but with the quirk that ships don't necessarily have to have a hyperdrive built in or attached to the ship, so they can build "gates" that transition a ship into hyperspace then they can fly (through hyperspace) to another jump gate that transitions them into or out of hyperspace.

[Daemion]

The concept of hyperspace has me wondering what normal space ships look like to beings born and raised in those dimensions.  Since the amount of speed suggests larger increments traversed, normal space ships probably look huge.

[glitterboy2098]

The concept of hyperspace has me wondering what normal space ships look like to beings born and raised in those dimensions.  Since the amount of speed suggests larger increments traversed, normal space ships probably look huge.

the creatures native to hyperspace in B5 seem not to perceive ships as particularly large. just interesting.

hyperspace in B5 seems to be a bit like the nether in minecraft. just another realm connected to the normal universe, just one where distance correlation isn't 1 to 1.

[Charistoph]

babylon 5's FTL was essentially a hyperdrive model but with the quirk that ships don't necessarily have to have a hyperdrive built in or attached to the ship, so they can build "gates" that transition a ship into hyperspace then they can fly (through hyperspace) to another jump gate that transitions them into or out of hyperspace.

Eh, not really a hyper'drive', as it doesn't require the system to maintain its presence within this other realm like Star Wars does.

It does match the Honorverse model that something that can make the transition can drop things off which are stuck there until something can bring them out.  This actually happens in Honor Among Enemies when some ships are damaged, so they link up some Light Attack Craft to protect it to "drop down" some of the bands to hide.  However, if those Light Attack Craft aren't linked up when their mother ship transitions, they are stuck in Hyperspace.

[tassa_kay]

Eh, not really a hyper'drive', as it doesn't require the system to maintain its presence within this other realm like Star Wars does.

It's literally called a jump engine. I'd say that qualifies even if it doesn't have to run the entire time.

[Sir Chaos]

It's literally called a jump engine. I'd say that qualifies even if it doesn't have to run the entire time.

It doesn´t matter what it´s called. If Gandalf´s staff was called a jump engine, would it be a hyperdrive?

What matters is how it works. Nothing else.

[ErikModi]

Technically, all "hyperspace" models of FTL travel involve shunting the ship into another dimension where the laws of physics are different and permit, in one way or another, moving faster than the speed of light in realspace.

Most science fiction universes I'm aware of just handwave it so that "hyperspace" equals "word that means we can have FTL travel," but don't really engage with the fact the vessel is travelling through an alternate dimension or reality.  BattleTech is one of those, and Star Wars kind of is, in that it's only passingly mentioned that hyperspace calculations have to be precise in order to avoid hitting an object in realspace (or it's mass shadow) while travelling in hyperspace.

Babylon 5 really engages with the idea that hyperspace is a place, and you have to navigate it just like realspace, and that's made more difficult due to lack of "landmarks" and the presence of hyperspace currents.  40k's Warp is basically hyperspace, except hyperspace is also functionally Hell.  Event Horizon is often regarded (sometimes facetiously, sometimes not) as a Warhammer 40k film, because it also posits that poking a hole in reality leads to places you'd really rather not go.

It's why I take umbrage with SF Debris describing Discovery's spore drive as "magic."  I grant that it is not well explained until Season 2, and if you fail to properly explain the fundamental premise of your show, that's an entirely valid criticism.  Rather, Discovery's premise is "What if hyperspace is actually a fungal-based ecosystem?"  The spores allow access it because that species crosses the boundary between realspace and hyperspace, existing in both.

I do wonder what the nature of hyperspace in BattleTech is that it permits travel in the way it does.  A sort of one-dimensional space where all points overlap?  Why the 30 light year restriction, then?

[guardiandashi]

Technically, all "hyperspace" models of FTL travel involve shunting the ship into another dimension where the laws of physics are different and permit, in one way or another, moving faster than the speed of light in realspace.

Most science fiction universes I'm aware of just handwave it so that "hyperspace" equals "word that means we can have FTL travel," but don't really engage with the fact the vessel is travelling through an alternate dimension or reality.  BattleTech is one of those, and Star Wars kind of is, in that it's only passingly mentioned that hyperspace calculations have to be precise in order to avoid hitting an object in realspace (or it's mass shadow) while travelling in hyperspace.

Babylon 5 really engages with the idea that hyperspace is a place, and you have to navigate it just like realspace, and that's made more difficult due to lack of "landmarks" and the presence of hyperspace currents.  40k's Warp is basically hyperspace, except hyperspace is also functionally Hell.  Event Horizon is often regarded (sometimes facetiously, sometimes not) as a Warhammer 40k film, because it also posits that poking a hole in reality leads to places you'd really rather not go.

It's why I take umbrage with SF Debris describing Discovery's spore drive as "magic."  I grant that it is not well explained until Season 2, and if you fail to properly explain the fundamental premise of your show, that's an entirely valid criticism.  Rather, Discovery's premise is "What if hyperspace is actually a fungal-based ecosystem?"  The spores allow access it because that species crosses the boundary between realspace and hyperspace, existing in both.

I do wonder what the nature of hyperspace in BattleTech is that it permits travel in the way it does.  A sort of one-dimensional space where all points overlap?  Why the 30 light year restriction, then?

I would argue that battletechs jump drives are functionally a "fold drive" I know there are things that say thats not really how they work but for all practical purposes it is.  IE a fold drive is best modeled (for a simplistic thought exercise) by taking a sheet of paper bend it to overlap 2 points and then stick something through the paper this represents the jump process you then unfold the paper.

[Retry]

Everything I've seen on the K-F drives suggest they're more of a teleporation system that functions only at positions where gravity is low enough, and allow for instantaneous or near-instantaneous jumps between positions.  Apparently discontinuous as you don't need to draw a straight line between the two points (the first jump was between the zenith-nadir points in the solar system, where the Sun would have been in the way).  HPGs function the same way but for radio waves and don't seem to be as sensitive to gravity as they can be used planetside.

Black Boxes apparently use the same hyperspace medium yet work quite differently, as instead of the instant jump of HPGs or jumpships it emits a propagating wave from the emission point at speeds measured in LY/day.

[tassa_kay]

It doesn´t matter what it´s called.

Sure it does. Words have meaning. In this case, an engine is a machine that converts energy into mechanical work.

If Gandalf´s staff was called a jump engine, would it be a hyperdrive?

Absurd attempt to make a comparison.

What matters is how it works. Nothing else.

Using the criteria above, the B5 jump engine does exactly that: it takes energy and uses it to open a pathway to hyperspace.

It's an engine.

[Sir Chaos]

What an absurd attempt at a comparison.

My point stands. What you call something has no bearing on what it is.

Because, if that were not true, it could be that an oddly shaped stick becomes an interstellar drive system if you give it the right name.

[tassa_kay]

My point stands. What you call something has no bearing on what it is.

No, it really doesn't.

The B5 jump engine is, by the very defintion of the term, an engine. It converts energy into mechanical force (in this case, opening a pathway into hyperspace).

There is absolutely nothing that states that an engine has to maintain a constant conversion of energy to locomotive force in order to be considered an engine. If that were the case, the engine in my car would stop being an engine the moment I turn off the car.

[Sir Chaos]

No, it really doesn't.

The B5 jump engine is, by the very defintion of the term, an engine. It converts energy into mechanical force (in this case, opening a pathway into hyperspace).

There is absolutely nothing that states that an engine has to maintain a constant conversion of energy to locomotive force in order to be considered an engine. If that were the case, the engine in my car would stop being an engine the moment I turn off the car.

It´s an engine. But is it a jump engine? It opens pathways. The regular maneuver drive of the ship then moves it through the pathway.

With a BT or Traveler jump drive, a ship doesn´t need a maneuver drive, because it does not need to move in order to make a jump - and both BT jumpships and Traveler X-Boat couriers operate without maneuver drives.

B5 ships, on the other hand, are going nowhere without a maneuver drive - and unlike BT or Traveler, a maneuver drive alone is enough for interstellar travel if someone else opens the pathways for them. B5 jump engines are more like the key fob that opens your garage door in purpose than like actual engines.

[tassa_kay]

It´s an engine. But is it a jump engine? It opens pathways. The regular maneuver drive of the ship then moves it through the pathway.

Yes, it's a jump engine. It literally creates jump points. This isn't complicated.

With a BT or Traveler jump drive, a ship doesn´t need a maneuver drive, because it does not need to move in order to make a jump - and both BT jumpships and Traveler X-Boat couriers operate without maneuver drives.

B5 ships, on the other hand, are going nowhere without a maneuver drive - and unlike BT or Traveler, a maneuver drive alone is enough for interstellar travel if someone else opens the pathways for them. B5 jump engines are more like the key fob that opens your garage door in purpose than like actual engines.

You can move the goalposts all you like, but the fact that B5's method of FTL travel differs from BT and Traveller's methods of FTL travel doesn't make a lick of difference here.

[Charistoph]

It's literally called a jump engine. I'd say that qualifies even if it doesn't have to run the entire time.

But the engine is not "driving" the ship through the space itself, just into it.  Once there, standard STL drives are implemented to produce mobility.

This is why Babylon 5 Hyper Gates allow fighters to transit without another ship providing that Jump.  This is why shuttles can transfer between ships will in hyperspace in the Honorverse (so long as the units aren't in a gravity wave).

Meanwhile in Star Wars, if a ship doesn't have an operational hyperdrive, it immediately drops out.  It's like hyperspace kicks them out with the field that the hyperdrive provides.  The quality of the hyperdrive also determines the speed with which one transits hyperspace.

And as you said:

Words have meaning.

And a drive is the system by which mechanical energy is transferred in to velocity.

[Sir Chaos]

Yes, it's a jump engine. It literally creates jump points. This isn't complicated.

No, it literally does not. It opens pathways between normal space and hyperspace.

Do you know what isn´t complicated? The fact that a jump engine moves a ship from A to B directly, which the B5 "jump engine" does not.

You can move the goalposts all you like, but the fact that B5's method of FTL travel differs from BT and Traveller's methods of FTL travel doesn't make a lick of difference here.

I have moved no goalposts here. You, however, keep finding new ways to claim that two very different things are in fact the same thing - and none of them are making any sense.

[tassa_kay]

But the engine is not "driving" the ship through the space itself, just into it.  Once there, standard STL drives are implemented to produce mobility.

This is why Babylon 5 Hyper Gates allow fighters to transit without another ship providing that Jump.  This is why shuttles can transfer between ships will in hyperspace in the Honorverse (so long as the units aren't in a gravity wave).

Meanwhile in Star Wars, if a ship doesn't have an operational hyperdrive, it immediately drops out.  It's like hyperspace kicks them out with the field that the hyperdrive provides.  The quality of the hyperdrive also determines the speed with which one transits hyperspace.

Yes, and B5 isn't Star Wars. Star Wars doesn't define how hyperdrives work in other settings.

And a drive is the system by which mechanical energy is transferred in to velocity.

The jump drive provides the means to propel a ship into hyperspace. Without it (or a jumpgate obviously, but let's stick to the jump engine in this example), that act is impossible.

Seems to me that in a setting where the laws of physics as we know them today in the real world are broken through mechanical means, the definition of "drive" would have to expand to include the act of opening a jump point.

Ergo, it's a drive.

[tassa_kay]

No, it literally does not. It opens pathways between normal space and hyperspace.

... that's what I just said. "Jump points" are pathways between normal space and hyperspace.

Do you know what isn´t complicated? The fact that a jump engine moves a ship from A to B directly, which the B5 "jump engine" does not.

In other settings, yes. But in B5, that's not the case. How FTL works in Setting A does not define how it works in Setting B.

I have moved no goalposts here. You, however, keep finding new ways to claim that two very different things are in fact the same thing - and none of them are making any sense.

I've been pretty consistent, actually, but that's fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Sir Chaos]

Somebody just attached a jump drive to those goal posts. And it wasn´t me.

[Nerroth]

For comparison's sake, warp drive in the Star Fleet Universe has three tiers: "tactical", "operational", and "strategic".

"Tactical" speeds are those at which a "modern" (GURPS Prime Directive Tech Level 12) ship, such as a Constitution-class heavy cruiser, can fight - as seen in the likes of Star Fleet Battles and Federation Commander, where a single game hex is 10,000kms across. At this level, the "speed limit" is Warp 3.14, or SFB Speed 31: 30 hexes maximum from the ship's warp engines, plus an extra hex from the ship's impulse engines.

"Operational" speeds are the fastest cruising speeds a ship can travel under its own navigation. That same Constitution-class CA has a a maximum cruising speed of Warp 7, which allows it to cover just under 19 parses per day. However, if the ship had to perform an emergency saucer separation, the impulse engines in the saucer (should they remain active) still allow it to "cruise" at Warp 5.5, or just over 9 parsecs a day.

"Strategic", or "dash" warp, is as fast a ship (from GPD TL 12 onwards) can go using navigation beacons laid out (and paid for) by the operating empire beforehand. In the case of the Federation CA, it can "dash" up to Warp 9.25, or just over 436 parsecs a day! However, it must stop at a "strategic movement node" (such as a starbase or a major industrial planet) every three thousand parsecs - or every six hexes on the hex map used for the strategic-level game Federation and Empire.

The way the SFU tells it, "impulse" engines are fusion-based "Non-Tactical Warp" drives; they allow a ship to travel from one star system to the next, but must slow to sub-light speeds during combat, and cannot use "dash" warp. Tactical Warp drive involves matter-antimatter reactions, which require the use of those all-important dilithium crystals to be regulated properly.

The F&E hex map covers three of 24 sectors - from Alpha to Omega - of the SFU version of the Milky Way Galaxy. (The SFU does not use the same "sector" and "quadrant" system portrayed in the post-1979 on-screen Franchise.) The Federation covers an area of that map 9,500 parsecs in diameter, in keeping with the data from the "U.S. Air Force data tapes" originally published in the Star Fleet Technical Manual.

-----

Actually, one form of star travel which I find interesting to consider is the "skip drive" from the Old Man's War novel series.

A skip drive does not move you from one place to another in the same universe. Instead, it places you at the target location in an infinitesimally different universe. Or, at least, that is how the skip drive is assumed to work; you (as the passenger) have no way of telling one way or the other.

As in, say if you and a friend of yours board a ship leaving the Sol system. As soon as you make the first skip, you will ever see "your" version of Earth again. But then, the Colonial Union you are now signed up to bars travel back to Sol anyway, so you knew this going in. However, as soon as you and your friend transfer to different ships which skip to different star systems, you'll never see "your" version of that friend either; if the two of you meet up again, the "friend" you meet is infinitesimally removed from that original (to you) person.

And yet, most people (those not driven to madness by the multiversal implications of it all, I guess) simply act as if this person is the same one all along.

I forget what range the skip drive has, though.

There is no equivalent of BattleTech's HPG in the OMW multiverse, but there are "skip drones" which are used to pass on information from one place to the next.

[Charistoph]

Yes, and B5 isn't Star Wars. Star Wars doesn't define how hyperdrives work in other settings.

And B5 doesn't use hyperdrives while Star Wars does.  B5 uses Jump Engines, not Jump Drives, just like Battletech.

I didn't say Star Wars defines how hyperdrives work in other settings.  Please, don't try erecting a strawman argument.  I was using them as an example of concepts.

A B5 ship losing its Jump Engine in the middle of a fight in hyperspace doesn't toss them out of hyperspace, while losing the hyperdrive in Star Wars does kick you out of hyperspace.

The jump drive provides the means to propel a ship into hyperspace. Without it (or a jumpgate obviously, but let's stick to the jump engine in this example), that act is impossible.

You're using two different terms here to try and conflate them.  B5 calls them Jump Engines, not Jump Drives.  That's because their system doesn't propel them through hyperspace, it just powers an opening.

B5 Jump Engines also do not propel a ship in to space, they generate a vortex through which a ship may pass.

Honorverse Hyper generators also don't propel a ship between bands, it just transitions them.  They hyper generators handle that transition.  In fact, it's usually better on equipment and crew to not be having much relatively movement in comparison to the local primaries to not be moving at all when the hyper generators are activated.

Seems to me that in a setting where the laws of physics as we know them today in the real world are broken through mechanical means, the definition of "drive" would have to expand to include the act of opening a jump point.

Ergo, it's a drive.

Not necessarily.  A garage door opener has the engine at one place.  It is connected to a drive.  The engine activates the drive and powers the drive, but the engine doesn't travel with the door.

For cars, you have the engine in one place, and then there is the drive train which goes from a transmission to the wheels which move the car.

B5 and Honorverse are similar, that which puts them in to hyperspace is not what propels them in that space.  So they don't have hyperdrives.  They have Jump Engines and Hyper Generators, respectively.

Star Wars uses a system in which puts them in to hyperspace also propels them in that space, and thus they have hyperdrives.

[idea weenie]

Maybe we don't have enough terms for the variety of FTL types, and could go for more descriptive of their systems rather than just the in-universe name:

• FTL-hurdle (i.e. Babylon 5, Honorverse) - you have to use a special engine to get into the FTL 'realm', but after that can use regular engines to get around
• FTL-required (Star Wars, Star Trek) - your FTL engine has to be active the entire time, otherwise you drop out of FTL and back to realspace (with varying amount of damage that range from total destruction to someone hitting their head on a console

I'd tend to put Battletech's FTL system as the FTL-Required as the Jump Core has to be active the entire time, even if that time is very short

Here is the Atomic Rockets' page about different FTL types, specifically the Landis list.  (For those reading this post without being signed in, it is the "Faster than Light Starships 2" page)

[Retry]

It´s an engine. But is it a jump engine? It opens pathways. The regular maneuver drive of the ship then moves it through the pathway.

I don't think the regular maneuver drive is actually used during a jump, at least not by my reading of Strat Ops.  Think it's literally just a case of dematerialization and rematerialization a la teleporation; If it was a case of opening pathways and then using sublight maneuver drives to move into them, then the canonical incident during the 2777 Battle of Terra where the Mississippi Queen partially materialized in the Richardson wouldn't have been able to happen (The Mississippi Queen would instead rammed into the Richardson like a normal sublight crash, rather than straight up rematerializing in its place)

[elf25s]

just ask cray
he had few threads like this in almost a decade here and so far he is the only one that makes sense

but getting back to subject i recall that inner sphere and periphery is roughly 1000 to 1100 LY in breadth and lengh 
sarna agrees and so do other sites and before catalyst took over the previous bt board also agreed along with some usenet boards going back to mid 80s heck even yahoo geocities had their boards and pages in 1990s they all agree on this ...not sure about the creator of bt but i never saw him deny or agree on this fluff
now our galaxy is roughly 100k to 120k LY so what do you think the size of inner sphere is compared to the galaxy

[idea weenie]

just ask cray
he had few threads like this in almost a decade here and so far he is the only one that makes sense

but getting back to subject i recall that inner sphere and periphery is roughly 1000 to 1100 LY in breadth and lengh 
sarna agrees and so do other sites and before catalyst took over the previous bt board also agreed along with some usenet boards going back to mid 80s heck even yahoo geocities had their boards and pages in 1990s they all agree on this ...not sure about the creator of bt but i never saw him deny or agree on this fluff
now our galaxy is roughly 100k to 120k LY so what do you think the size of inner sphere is compared to the galaxy

Inner Sphere being ~1000ly wide and tall vs Milky Way galaxy at roughly 100k ly wide and tall?

Inner Sphere is 1% of the Galaxy's width and height, or a dot a hundredth of a percent the size of the Milky Way as seen from above the galactic plane.  So if you had a map of the Milky Way that was 1000 pixels wide and tall, then the Inner sphere would be a rough sphere 10 pixels wide and tall.

[ANS Kamas P81]

now our galaxy is roughly 100k to 120k LY so what do you think the size of inner sphere is compared to the galaxy

Assuming the Inner Sphere is just that, a sphere, then it'd be about as thick as the galaxy (1000 ly) while being 1/100 of the length and breadth of the galaxy.  So 1/10,000 of the galaxy as a whole.

Space is big.

[Sir Chaos]

Maybe we don't have enough terms for the variety of FTL types, and could go for more descriptive of their systems rather than just the in-universe name:

• FTL-hurdle (i.e. Babylon 5, Honorverse) - you have to use a special engine to get into the FTL 'realm', but after that can use regular engines to get around
• FTL-required (Star Wars, Star Trek) - your FTL engine has to be active the entire time, otherwise you drop out of FTL and back to realspace (with varying amount of damage that range from total destruction to someone hitting their head on a console

I'd tend to put Battletech's FTL system as the FTL-Required as the Jump Core has to be active the entire time, even if that time is very short

Here is the Atomic Rockets' page about different FTL types, specifically the Landis list.  (For those reading this post without being signed in, it is the "Faster than Light Starships 2" page)

I think you can divide both categories into two:

- Transit FTL-hurdle: A built-in device takes the ship to the FTL realm and back (Honorverse)
- Gateway FTL-hurdle: A device opens a gateway that allows any ship to enter/exit the FTL realm (Babylon 5)
- Traveling FTL-required: The device lets you traverse the distance from A to B at FTL speed (Star Trek, Star Wars)
- Jumping FTL-required: The device lets you go directly from A to B without traversing the distance between them (BT)

[ANS Kamas P81]

The Battlestar Galactica reboot series also had jump drives that functioned similar to Battletech's KF drive, with point to point teleportation and no travel in between.

[Sir Chaos]

The Battlestar Galactica reboot series also had jump drives that functioned similar to Battletech's KF drive, with point to point teleportation and no travel in between.

Yeah.

The Traveler jump drive is really an odd one in that system. It´s Jumping FTL-required, but the jump is not instananeous, and you´re in some sort of FTL realm in the meantime, and bad things happen if the jump drive fails before you arrive. But you don´t really interact with the FTL realm or navigate inside it, like you do with the FTL-hurdle drives.

In a way, it´s closer to Traveling FTL-required, except you have to travel all the way from A to B in one go, without the option to stop or change course, like with the Star Wars or Star Trek drives. Where you go is determined the moment you enter jump.

[tassa_kay]

Stars Without Number's FTL system, the spike drive, works a lot like that. The actual journey isn't instantaneous, with travel between star systems taking a number of days, but Bad Things can happen (up to and including emerging at a random star system with the drive and all systems destroyed) if you fail the drive activation. But during the actual travel time, you don't interact with the FTL realm, either, and you're locked into the course you set. It also takes quite a bit to set a course (30 minutes, unless you rush it, which increases the likelihood of a misjump).

[Prospernia]

. . .Bad Things can happen . . .

You don't have to tell that to the crew of the Event Horizon.

[Prospernia]

Also, everyone looks at FTL, from a human-perspective.  Space and time are perceptions and if you were an alien-being that could live for millions of years, or so, what's a few tens of thousands of years to slowly go to the next star-system?