BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Articles => Topic started by: Kit deSummersville on 17 May 2013, 19:49:42
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Zeus, King of the Gods, ruling from afar on Mount Olympus, throwing lightning bolts at his foes (or just anything that might be interesting to throw a lightning bolt at). A glorious name for an assault ‘Mech from a nation with deep ties to ancient Greece. Yet many would miss that it is the Lyran Commonwealth, scion of Germanic influences, which is the state in question.
Appearing at the beginning of the First Succession War, as House Kurita was assailing the relatively recently absorbed Hesperus II facility, the Lyran forces unleashed their new BattleMech, driving off the invaders. Despite a low-tech structure (outside of CASE), the Zeus was outfitted with advanced weapons, an extended range laser, advanced guided missiles and either an extended range particle cannon or a ultra autocannon rounded out the core (and long range) firepower, with a pair of medium lasers covering front and back and double heat sinks to keep the ‘Mech cool. The PPC version had issues with heat build up that saw it meet any early end in production, which probably wasn’t unexpected from a ‘Mech that was designed and built in an amazingly short amount of time.
As well as this Zeus fared, the Succession Wars took away the suppliers of the advanced weapons and heat sinks, resulting in the ‘classic’ version, the 6S was probably the best 80 ton ‘generalist’ BattleMech in TRO 3025. Still equipped with fifteen long-range missiles, a large laser, class five autocannon and the dual medium lasers it wasn’t concerned with heat build-up unless the rear laser was brought into play. Though the bite it has was less than we are used to these days, for the Third Succession War it was adequate. What often wasn’t were the missile reloads, with a mere ton of ammunition being a mixed blessing. Just eight salvos left many MechWarriors wanting more from the seven tons of launcher but more than a few sighed a breath of relief when enemy fire ruptured the ammo bin only to find it empty.
With the Fourth Succession war on the horizon, the Lyran engineers solved the problem with the particle cannon (perhaps not using a Star League ER PPC was all they needed to do). Two more heat sinks helped the dissipation, but removed the Zeus from the ‘alpha baby’ group. The ammo bin didn’t grow any deeper, but in a fire-support role it could bombard the enemy with the PPC and LRMs for eighty seconds straight, adding in the large laser every other salvo. Despite the heat issues, the greater damage and less ammo dependence of the 6T made it the mainstay of low-end Lyran assault ‘Mechs.
With the return of the Clans a high tech Zeus was reborn. Similar to the 5S, it lacked the targeting for the missile system but had dual medium pulse lasers for infighting. This lackluster design was seen as an improvement but hardly the pinnacle of what the machine could become, especially with the revelation of the capabilities of the 5S.
Where the 5S stopped, the 9T took over. Using the innovative light engine, it became a devastating fire-support ‘Mech. The engine allowed more armor and heat dissipation plus a short-range fusillade of dual medium pulse lasers and an extended range medium. Capable of sustained fire of its long-range weaponry, not only through better heat dissipation than the 9S but also doubling the traditional missile supply to sixteen salvos. The 9T is most likely the pinnacle of the entire Zeus line.
With the Word of Blake finally doing what was thought impossible and capturing Hesperus II, they created their own version of the Zeus. Mounting more firepower than ever, the dual heavy particle cannons and quad extended-range medium lasers were backed up by an extended range large laser, capable of destroying over three tons of armor in one salvo at over 350 meters. Sadly it only had the heat sinks to compensate for the medium lasers and running. Even underwater this heat-hog would avoid an autoshutdown by one heat point while walking and unleashing an alpha-strike.
While the number of production variants stops at seven, four more experimental versions exist. A brief trial was tried on the 6S during the Succession Wars, called the 6Y. Downgrading the missile rack allowed the large laser to be increased to a blazer. The test designs did not fare well with the installation of the binary laser and the experiment was halted.
The remaining prototypes were all dubbed “Zeus-X”, known for mounting distinctive fins on the back of the ‘Mech and an XXL engine that pushed the top speed to over eighty-five kilometers per hour.
The first threw out the weapon load and mounted an LB-20 autocannon and MRM-30 launcher, backed up by a pair of medium X-pulse lasers. Reactive armor increased survivability on the limbs but composite structure made armor breaches much more deadly to the machine. The X2 was really a slight modification to the X, swapping out the autocannon for an ER PPC and heat sinks.
More famous that it’s ancestors, the X3 was popularized by the exploits of Stacy Church, the “New Black Widow”. Retaining the X2’s ER PPC, it dumped the rest of the weaponry for 4 ER medium lasers. While that resembled a Phoenix Hawk -6D without the targeting computer, the eight improved jump jets made it more maneuverable while over fourteen tons of armor made it tougher. At the hands of an elite pilot, this mobile assault ‘Mech is terrifying but quite different from the typical Zeus.
How does one use a Zeus? Obviously it varies depending on the situation, but typically it can be deployed two ways. Firstly is where it is an anchoring force for lighter units, using its long range weaponry to cover an advance and then switch to close-in weapons. In battles where assault ‘Mechs litter both sides, the Zeus can fill the role of fire-support excellently. Trying to find a sweet-spot at short range for the 6’s 5/6/7 main weapons can be troublesome, so try for nine or ten hexes, where everything is in medium range (and possibly longer for your opponent). A 9T can nestle into a tree line on a hill and send a potential thirty-eight points of damage down range for sixteen straight turns. Against heavy ‘Mechs, don’t forget to use the Zeus’s mass, sixteen point kicks will make an old Warhammer realize it is dealing with an assault.
How to defeat a Zeus? Picking on the left side is generally a good way to cripple it’s firepower and crit-seeking weapons are excellent for finding ammo in the Zues’ that mount multiple bins. For most models, getting close (quickly) will take the missiles out of play while leaving the ammo bin as a handicap and regular PPCs and AC/5s will worry about minimum ranges.
Remember, Zeus is the King of the Gods, not the King of the BattleMechs. It’s a powerful tool in the right hands but can also be a poor choice for someone who isn’t familiar with this Lyran hallmark.
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Are you doing any of the unique versions featured in the Turning Points? Turning Points: Glengarry had the Zeus Leonidas, which has a Gauss Rifle and an LRM-20 with 2 Tons of ammo for each, plus an ER Large Laser and 2 Medium Pulse Lasers to boot. However, it doesn't have CASE and has an XL Engine...
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Writeup is a little sparse on the info, in my opinion.
One thing to know about the Zeus is that they're somewhat anemic when it comes to armor, with the original 6S only sporting 11.5 tons worth. Though most later variants fix that issue, it kinda paints the image of it's use- attacking constantly and doing as much damage as you can in an era where dual PPCs also cost you 8 tons of heat sinks to be used effectively.
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The Ammo problems with the -6S are fixable, it's main weapons load (LL, AC/5 and LRM-15) only generate 14 heat, +2 for running and your at 16 but it mounts 17 for some reason, ditch the extra and you've got room for an extra HS
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Nice article, but I am missing my favorite ZEU-9S2 Zeus.
It has Gauss Rifle combined with ER Large Laser and supported with a pair of large LRM-15 racks with deep ammo bins. For me it is a very useful 'Mech. It can throw some theoretical 53 damage points 19 hexes downrange, although the real damage output will be slightly slower.
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I generally suspect that the Lyrans built the Zeus to fill the same role as the SLDF's STC-2CStriker, given the very similar weapons fits between the original Zeus and the Striker STC-2C. Same size, same engine, less armour but more heatsinks. And the Lyrans are noted to have one of the largest concentrations of Strikers left, so them wanting to replace or supplement them with something similar seems likely.
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Always liked the look of the Zeus. I think the first thing to remember is that it's a heavy. Sure it's an "assault" 'Mech, but it plays more like a 65, 70, or 75 tonner than some scary death machine that the title "Assault" tends to imply. After that, it's all about team work, as the base model wont' have the stopping power on it's own.
I've used the 9T a lot and had great success, and I've played a series of Jihad era games against the MegaMek bot using the Zeus X3. Have to be careful with the endo composite, but it sucks to have a 7-8 hex jumping assault 'Mech armor level thing moving around in your midst. While it only has the firepower of a medium, you have to wear through the armor to get rid of it. Fits my playstyle well.
Also, I thought Stacy Church has two different variants for her Zeus from Wolf and Blake? I don't remember her using a X3...
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Nice article, but I am missing my favorite ZEU-9S2 Zeus.
It has Gauss Rifle combined with ER Large Laser and supported with a pair of large LRM-15 racks with deep ammo bins. For me it is a very useful 'Mech. It can throw some theoretical 53 damage points 19 hexes downrange, although the real damage output will be slightly slower.
Never heard of this one, though it sounds pretty good. Where's it from?
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Never heard of this one, though it sounds pretty good. Where's it from?
It is from the MechWarrior 4: Inner Sphere 'Mech Pak.
The record sheet for it is in the Record Sheets: 3050 Upgrades Unabridged - Inner Sphere.
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There's just something about the Zeus. It always winds up on my table and it usually always makes it to the end of the fight. They are surprisingly durable and capable of delivering a few good blows.
I remember first falling for it when I played one of the scenarios out the intro box set. You had to take a damaged Zeus and get it past the enemy.
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There's just something about the Zeus. It always winds up on my table and it usually always makes it to the end of the fight. They are surprisingly durable and capable of delivering a few good blows.
ZEU-10WB Zeus can be pretty mean, if you are luck and don't get your XL Gyro critted.
I remember first falling for it when I played one of the scenarios out the intro box set. You had to take a damaged Zeus and get it past the enemy.
In original edition it was BLR-1G BattleMaster against Rifleman, Phoenix Hawk and Locust. But when problems with Unseen 'Mechs emerged, they had to change those 'Mechs to Zeus against JagerMech, Cicada and Commando.
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The Zeus is more of an overweight heavy than a pocket assault like an awesome. (Yeah, that totally didn't cost me any games in Megamek. *cough*) Just because its weight puts it on the other side of the Heavy/Assault dividing line like the Gargoyle doesn't make it any more of an assault mech in any respect but name.
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Always liked the look of the Zeus. I think the first thing to remember is that it's a heavy. Sure it's an "assault" 'Mech, but it plays more like a 65, 70, or 75 tonner than some scary death machine that the title "Assault" tends to imply. After that, it's all about team work, as the base model wont' have the stopping power on it's own.
Agreed. To me Zeus's were extra heavy Heavy mechs..
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Well, the weight classes are pretty arbitrarily defined anyway, the impact of weight as a whole on gameplay gets routinely overestimated, and there's plenty of RL historical precedent for military vehicles ending up bigger and heavier than originally planned and then only growing more so over successive upgrade cycles. So I can't really see anything particularly wrong with the concept of an 80-ton "heavy" 'Mech.
As for the Zeus itself...am I a bad person for personally liking the AC-equipped models better and considering the PPC variants just a little bit cheesy? Yes, they pack undeniably more punch and all, but I guess that to me the 6S will always remain the "original". :)
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I always loved the Zeus, I got hooked by the looks. On paper it should be very lack luster a bore yet in game it always performed very very well.
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Looking back, I've never had a Zeus die easily or without taking company along to the grave. I think the -6S and -6T hold up well in any era.
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Though a Lyran at heart, it took me a long time to warm up to the Zeus, but I agree wholeheartedly, the -6S is both excellent and surprisingly durable. There are few other 3025 'Mechs that don't need to worry about heat.
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The 10WB has the heatsinks to handle the 4 ERMLs, the ERLL and running. Thankfully when the record sheets were redone a while back, they fixed the 10WB from the original travesty that it was and made it atleast useful, if somewhat overarmed, design. Use the HPPCs at range to open up holes, then if someone sneaks in under the minimums, open up on them with the ERMLs and ERLL.
Not the most efficient, but atleast it can use its HPPCs at the same time, unlike the original design.
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The 10WB has the heatsinks to handle the 4 ERMLs, the ERLL and running. Thankfully when the record sheets were redone a while back, they fixed the 10WB from the original travesty that it was and made it atleast useful, if somewhat overarmed, design. Use the HPPCs at range to open up holes, then if someone sneaks in under the minimums, open up on them with the ERMLs and ERLL.
Not the most efficient, but atleast it can use its HPPCs at the same time, unlike the original design.
Yeah, the original ZEU-10WB was a tragedy.
The 'Mech needed a permanently attached coolant truck. Just a small oversight. :))
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A Clan player should always have a sneer when he discusses the kind of gear he faces in combat, if you really play as a Clanner.
But an INTELLIGENT Clan player should always have a healthy respect for the gear he faces too, when it deserves respect. And a Jade Falcon player should always, ALWAYS look at a Zeus as a pretty serious issue, every time one takes the field. It's quicker than you give an assault (particularly when you're used to Steiner's other assortment of high-weight toys), but still carries a pretty hefty amount of muscle to the field. It's tough- they seem to take forever to kill. And with the exception of the 10WB, they tend to be able to use their respectable firepower because they rarely suffer from major heat issues. It won't stand up in firepower to a Falcon assault-style machine like a Warhawk or Night Gyr, and it gets outmaneuvered pretty easily by a Summoner. But as part of a team, a Zeus can be a very difficult opponent for even a tough Clan force to deal with. I've faced them repeatedly in my time, and they never get any more fun to deal with. The recent 'X' versions only make things even more frustrating. ;)
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The 10WB has the heatsinks to handle the 4 ERMLs, the ERLL and running. Thankfully when the record sheets were redone a while back, they fixed the 10WB from the original travesty that it was and made it atleast useful, if somewhat overarmed, design. Use the HPPCs at range to open up holes, then if someone sneaks in under the minimums, open up on them with the ERMLs and ERLL.
Not the most efficient, but atleast it can use its HPPCs at the same time, unlike the original design.
I don't think I've seen that update, what did they change?
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lets just say it's original heatsink package wasn't as good has it's current form like not even able to fire the both HPPCs without being heavily overheated bad.
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More famous that it’s ancestors, the X3 was popularized by the exploits of Stacy Church, the “New Black Widow”. Retaining the X2’s ER PPC, it dumped the rest of the weaponry for 4 ER medium lasers. While that resembled a Phoenix Hawk -6D without the targeting computer, the eight improved jump jets made it more maneuverable while over fourteen tons of armor made it tougher. At the hands of an elite pilot, this mobile assault ‘Mech is terrifying but quite different from the typical Zeus.
Couple things:
Church didn't drive a Zeus-X3. She had one of the test bed X's, ZEUX0003, with a Heavy PPC, LB-20X and three tons of ammo, and a pair of medium pulse lasers. Light fusion engine, 4/6, and 11.5 tons light FF armor.
But her most famous ride was the ZEU-9WD Zeus-X Stacy, with the Heavy PPC, LB 10-X, two medium ER lasers, AES in the right arm for the HPPC and Blue Shield, plus 13 tons of Light FF armor and 14 DHS. 4/6 movement, with no jump jets. It was a one-off, IIRC.
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I don't think I've seen that update, what did they change?
They followed the description more closely, with the design having 4 ERMLs, an ERLL and 2xHPPCs. Its got 17 DH, max (or close to it) FF armor and a LFE and XL Gyro. It was described in the fluff as being experimental, so you have to figure it was based on the 9T or something, and the heat sinks not changed from THAT, rather than some mystery bizarro, 10 DHS version floating around.
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What is the most recent date of introduction for the Zeus now? The original date in TR:3025 had it predating the Mackie, IIRC. If it's now been introduced in the First Succession War, would that make 2811 the year of its debut?
cheers,
Gabe
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What is the most recent date of introduction for the Zeus now? The original date in TR:3025 had it predating the Mackie, IIRC. If it's now been introduced in the First Succession War, would that make 2811 the year of its debut?
cheers,
Gabe
The MUL puts the ZEU-5T's introduction into 2787, with the 5S following it the year after that. So it postdates the dissolution of the Star League by just a few years. (Well, darn. With the 'Mech just about missing Kerensky's exodus, there goes the inspiration for my Clan Zeus...)
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The MUL puts the ZEU-5T's introduction into 2787, with the 5S following it the year after that. So it postdates the dissolution of the Star League by just a few years. (Well, darn. With the 'Mech just about missing Kerensky's exodus, there goes the inspiration for my Clan Zeus...)
Prototypes made their way into the hands of the exodus fleet, I mean there's the Jenner IIC. And it's odd that we've never received IIC a versions of the Atlas
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Prototypes made their way into the hands of the exodus fleet, I mean there's the Jenner IIC. And it's odd that we've never received IIC a versions of the Atlas
The Jenner came about a few crucial years earlier (7-A in 2779, 7-F in the Exodus Year 2784, 7-D in '85). I suppose I could go with something like "yeah, there was totally this one SLDF trooper who became a test pilot for Defiance after the fall of Amaris and who then managed to 'liberate' an early Zeus prototype before heading out to join Kerensky with it in tow, and then that one 'Mech lasted long enough throughout all of the Pentagon Civil War and Operation Klondike that later during the Golden Century some bright individual decided to build a few more working copies upgraded with Clantech"...but it'd honestly be kind of a stretch in a universe that's seen quite a few too many similar stretches before.
(Although...heck, now that I have gotten that idea stuck in my head, I suppose I might as well roll with it anyway. ;))
Edited to add: ...and then of course my actual physical printed copy of Historical: Operation Klondike chooses to list the ZEU-6S, formally introduced only in 2898 according to the MUL, on its Pentagon Powers RAT. Go figure. ::)
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Guess they had access to the proposal documents... in the Core Kerensky took (man, would most of the Inner Sphere like to see the Sea Fox to leak that thing).
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A Clan player should always have a sneer when he discusses the kind of gear he faces in combat, if you really play as a Clanner.
But an INTELLIGENT Clan player should always have a healthy respect for the gear he faces too, when it deserves respect. And a Jade Falcon player should always, ALWAYS look at a Zeus as a pretty serious issue, every time one takes the field. It's quicker than you give an assault (particularly when you're used to Steiner's other assortment of high-weight toys), but still carries a pretty hefty amount of muscle to the field. It's tough- they seem to take forever to kill. And with the exception of the 10WB, they tend to be able to use their respectable firepower because they rarely suffer from major heat issues. It won't stand up in firepower to a Falcon assault-style machine like a Warhawk or Night Gyr, and it gets outmaneuvered pretty easily by a Summoner. But as part of a team, a Zeus can be a very difficult opponent for even a tough Clan force to deal with. I've faced them repeatedly in my time, and they never get any more fun to deal with. The recent 'X' versions only make things even more frustrating. ;)
Nice to have the view of a clan warrior. It is a very honest assessment of a mech that I have always liked, and always hated facing in my drac days.
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Edited to add: ...and then of course my actual physical printed copy of Historical: Operation Klondike chooses to list the ZEU-6S, formally introduced only in 2898 according to the MUL, on its Pentagon Powers RAT. Go figure. ::)
Could also represent downgraded tech due to Pentegon degeneration or something.... or could be errata worthy!
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But as part of a team, a Zeus can be a very difficult opponent for even a tough Clan force to deal with. I've faced them repeatedly in my time, and they never get any more fun to deal with. The recent 'X' versions only make things even more frustrating. ;)
JadeHellbringer, as a Falcon player who often fights Steiner...take a look at the Jupiter. Is that 'Mech basically not two Zeuses in one?
Even the name suggests a connection...whatever the case, with the Jupiter and Bane 4, the Falcons have managed to out-Lyran the Lyrans ;)
cheers,
Gabe
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Big accomplishment when you're using Clan-tech...
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Really the names sort of a give away, and I wonder why they used it, the names of Gods are normally used for vehicles by the Clans
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Really the names sort of a give away, and I wonder why they used it, the names of Gods are normally used for vehicles by the Clans
Psy-ops? As a message to the Lyrans that "we've one-upped* your iconic 'Mech" ?
*well, really two-upped, but...
cheers,
Gabe
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I'd hope a 100 tonner of any tech could one up an 80 ton IS 'Mech... ::)
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Clan vehicles are typically named for gods, goddesses and demi-gods/goddesses of war, not just dieties.
With that said, yes I think it is best to play this as a heavy just as you would any of the 3025 4/6 80s.
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My favorite memory using a Zeus was when I used a 9S during a Clan Invasion scenario to beat the tar out of a Thor.
Guess we found out who was the real god of thunder...
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Could also represent downgraded tech due to Pentegon degeneration or something.... or could be errata worthy!
Very errata worthy. 2882 is long after Kerensky left the IS. Of cource, the original intro date for the Zeus in my old 3025 says it was produced before the mackie so....
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According to the MUL, the first Zeus was the ZEU-5T model, introduced in 2787.
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According to the 3025 original printing the first Zeus rolled off the production line in 2411. They were effective in the war with the Draconis combine on Hesperus II in 2407. This has since been eratted away but that is the origunal date if the Zeus.
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Right... I just figured the 6S was a downgrade IF some went to the Pentegon.
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According to the 3025 original printing the first Zeus rolled off the production line in 2411. They were effective in the war with the Draconis combine on Hesperus II in 2407. This has since been eratted away but that is the origunal date if the Zeus.
No. That was a mistake in a book filled with mistakes. 2407 and 2411 are prior to the deployment of the Mackie, and prior to the Lyran Commonwealth having ownership of Defiance Industries
Ergo, it is flat-out impossible for the Zeus to be built by the Lyran company of Defiance Industries in 2407.
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No. That was a mistake in a book filled with mistakes. 2407 and 2411 are prior to the deployment of the Mackie, and prior to the Lyran Commonwealth having ownership of Defiance Industries
Ergo, it is flat-out impossible for the Zeus to be built by the Lyran company of Defiance Industries in 2407.
Did you at least read my whoie statement before you jumped on me?
According to the 3025 original printing the first Zeus rolled off the production line in 2411. They were effective in the war with the Draconis combine on Hesperus II in 2407. This has since been eratted away but that is the original date if the Zeus.
I bolded the part that matters.
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Did you at least read my whoie statement before you jumped on me?
No, the part that "mattered" was your claim that it was the original date for the Zeus. That is incorrect.
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ok, man. lol it's not worth it. have a great day.
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According to the 3025 original printing the first Zeus rolled off the production line in 2411. They were effective in the war with the Draconis combine on Hesperus II in 2407. This has since been eratted away but that is the origunal date if the Zeus.
Just checked my copy of 3025 and these are the numbers in it, however they also place the Zeus' first combat BEFORE it started being produced, did FASA have an aversion to fact checking?
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Just checked my copy of 3025 and these are the numbers in it, however they also place the Zeus' first combat BEFORE it started being produced, did FASA have an aversion to fact checking?
In a word? Yup. In a really long word? Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.
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If you read carefully you see the first reference is to the 2 prototypes. The 2411 date is when they went into full production... "according to the original 3025" . I put that in quotes so every one understands that I also realize the date is incorrect and that date is impossible and has been errated to a later date.
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If you know that date is wrong, why do you keep repeating it?
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Because it's the origunal printed date. Until the errata came out for it it is the correct date. Why is this upsetting you so much? You're like a dog with a bone and you're just not getting what I'm sayin and I've explained myself a few times now. If you have a problem with what ive said please report me to the mods and i'll discuss it with them.
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Sigh. Just because it was printed didn't make it correct even when it was printed. Or do you insist that the St. Ives Armored Cavalry was originally a House Kurita formation?
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Sigh. Just because it was printed didn't make it correct even when it was printed. Or do you insist that the St. Ives Armored Cavalry was originally a House Kurita formation?
I have never said in this conversation that the printed date was the correct date. I said that is what it said in the original 3025. do you understand now?
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I have never said in this conversation that the printed date was the correct date. I said that is what it said in the original 3025. do you understand now?
Okay. How's this. The data in the original 3025 is irrelevant. Nothing in that book should be accepted unless confirmed by another source. Stating that the original date for the Zeus is 2411 is like stating "Well the original texts said the Earth was flat."
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Continuously repeating the incorrect date that was printed in the original TRO 3025, especially given that you already know it's incorrect, is neither useful nor relevant to the discussion.
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I noted earlier that someone said they had always finished their fights with an intact Zeus...
I lost THREE of the damn things in ONE damn fight!
Two ammo criticals (one a TAC on a pristine unit, and another torn apart by 9 separate LRM volleys, five of which were LRM-5 too), and another with a cored out head due to an AC/10 and a Small Laser combo, off things!
I have never used one since, and it isn't because I blame the mech either, I blame the godz of luck, and their very, very clear announcement that I shall not use the Zeus ever again!
Which sucks, since I really, really wanted to pound some sucker with an armored LRM 15... >:(
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I noted earlier that someone said they had always finished their fights with an intact Zeus...
I lost THREE of the damn things in ONE damn fight!
Two ammo criticals (one a TAC on a pristine unit, and another torn apart by 9 separate LRM volleys, five of which were LRM-5 too), and another with a cored out head due to an AC/10 and a Small Laser combo, off things!
I have never used one since, and it isn't because I blame the mech either, I blame the godz of luck, and their very, very clear announcement that I shall not use the Zeus ever again!
Which sucks, since I really, really wanted to pound some sucker with an armored LRM 15... >:(
If you have problems with ammo crits, take ZEU-10WB Zeus, then. It's an all-energy zombie 'Mech.
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Quite probably my favorite Assault 'Mech, which is saying a lot since I don't generally like Assault 'Mechs. Probably a great deal of my love for them is due to the fact that the Zeus is more of an overweight Heavy than an Assault. They are a mainstay of almost any Lyran force that I build and frequently find their way into other forces as well. As for favorites, that would be the 6S for 3025 play and the 9S for 3050 and onwards. I've never used any of the "X" variants, so I can't comment on them. I never cared for the 9T because, with the additional armor, the "feel" of the Zeus was gone and replaced by what felt like yet another nearly max-armored Assault 'Mech.
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I have a hard time considering using the Zeus because of its weapon arrangements and not a true DCMS unit (I think). However, the whole idea of looking at the mech as a heavy assault mech really opens the mind up.
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It's not a DCMS mech, it's built by the Lyrans.it's not a heavy assault mech either.
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I think he means considering it a heavy, not an assault, I think.........
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I never cared for the 9T because, with the additional armor, the "feel" of the Zeus was gone and replaced by what felt like yet another nearly max-armored Assault 'Mech.
I figure the 9T fits into the 3060 world of more damage, more streamlined, optimized designs compared to the 9S... firepower's really unchanged...
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No, it's neither an assault nor a heavy...it's a SCOUT MECH!!!
You just have to grok it form a Lyran point of view.
OH, and it's make a damn fine lawn gnome too!
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OH, and it's make a damn fine lawn gnome too!
So that's how the Lyrans "disarmed". Instant lawn gnome industry springing up overnight...and probably making a pretty kroner in the process, too. :)
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When does a Zeus X make in-universe sense? The only situation I could come up with is in a special operations unit with a strict limit on dropship 'mech-bays
It's a good mech on the tabletop; not the equal of a Timberwolf, but in the same ballpark. The problem is the 400XXL driving the cost to stratospheric levels. You could buy literal battalions of bug 'mechs for the cost of one.
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Two problems with that thought . . . the XXL at one point becomes main stream enough to be built as a production line rather than one-offs. You also see other XXL mechs becoming more common . . . so just like IMO the XL engine price would come down over time as they became more plentiful & economy of scale- IE a XL in 3049 is going to be more rare, thus expensive than in 3060 when more designs use them and more places produce the XL.
The change in 3100 of a lot of Advanced equipment becoming standard without price revisions is complicated by FASAnomics . . . part of the reason IMO they have thrown the c-bill overboard and instead campaign systems use meta-game RP/SP to figure out resource allotment.
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When does a Zeus X make in-universe sense? The only situation I could come up with is in a special operations unit with a strict limit on dropship 'mech-bays
It's a good mech on the tabletop; not the equal of a Timberwolf, but in the same ballpark. The problem is the 400XXL driving the cost to stratospheric levels. You could buy literal battalions of bug 'mechs for the cost of one.
The early Zeus Xs are merely prototypes, experimental things, tech showcases. I figure they're there to showcase Defiance's technological prowess, as such they make sense in-universe as marketing pieces.
By the time Zeus X4 rolls out, the XXL engines are relatively common in-universe with several production-grade 'Mechs using them (Savage Wolf, Dasher II, Warhammer IIC variant, Prey Seeker, Vulpes, Wulfen, to name few) and tournament legal rules-wise. They do retain their cost rules-wise, but presumably those costs do not hold true in-universe (if they did, 99% of BattleTech wouldn't work at all).
Personally, i'm rather worried about the 'Mech's design and purpose than its economics. Reactive armor isn't bad, but composite structure is dubious, especially with something as fragile as an XXL engine. Integral command console means the 'Mech is a command unit and thus likely in limited production only, it most certainly means there is little purpose in having multiple ones on the field at once.
But perhaps those features combined with its weapons loadout make it tougher than it looks at a glance. Its armament is geared for long-range fighting, while not great compared to Clan weapons, it is decent vs Inner Sphere, especially with its speed. And it has fortunately low damage output, meaning it is limited threat in itself. Basically a mobile command 'Mech.
But i'm not sure that idea is that useful, nor why not just pick some more traditional command unit, unless the Zeus X4 is intended for cavalry formations.
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I'm not sure where it was intended to serve. It's obviously not for export, since it's a Zeus, but I can't imagine trying to fight the Clans in it. The Falcons love mobile, long range mechs that would eat the Zeus X. I suppose with the Reactive Armor it would be effective against LRM-loving former FWL states.
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TRO3145 LC implies the Zeus X4 is most certainly in service, but it also paints the other models as merely experimental prototypes that were failures.
The 'Mech probably doesn't do well against the Clans except against Clan missile boats. Most certainly useful versus the FWL, and if the Lyrans have cavalry formations, the Zeus X4 would be good fit in those, as the FWL has quite few 4/6 heavies and assault 'Mechs.
The service history section in the TRO indicates the Zeus X4 saw service against the Dracs, notes its effectiveness vs the Dragon II. The Kuritans do have some other Arrow IV platforms as well, so there is some utility there.
Overall the 'Mech feels very much geared toward fighting IS tech than anything else though.
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Well, in a time where the Clans themselves are not fielding units made up solely of Clan grade equipment and we have more vehicles (which primarily use AC & Missiles) some of it makes sense.
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Two problems with that thought . . . the XXL at one point becomes main stream enough to be built as a production line rather than one-offs. You also see other XXL mechs becoming more common . . . so just like IMO the XL engine price would come down over time as they became more plentiful & economy of scale- IE a XL in 3049 is going to be more rare, thus expensive than in 3060 when more designs use them and more places produce the XL.
Problem; that doesn't happen with military gear. I remember reading an analysis that if you look at the engines of military aircraft and tanks, then adjust for inflation, you're only a few tens of percent off. The F-16's engine, from the 70's until the mid-'00s, went down ~15%, IIRC, and the F-15's went up. The electronics went through the roof in the same period.
They just don't build enough for the economies of scale to kick in. Maybe if the XXL prices given were for experimental one-offs, but if that was a production price, figure it's in the right order of magnitude.
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I read that analysis, and if you look at the topic you can see what counter points were made to it- IE, the engines have not been getting updated/changed for their basic performance . . . I also remember the B-2 and F-22 programs where an initial price was quoted for X number of units. Then each program ended up having X-whatever the number was actually built as Congress shrunk the number of units ordered. While they saved on the materials and labor that went into building a single airframe, the cost PER airframe increased b/c the R&D costs were divided by fewer and fewer airframes.
IMO a better example might be 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s costs, especially for the 3040s & 3050s tech recovery. In the 30s jet engines were still on the drawing board as theory though some steps had been made to get one functional. For most of WWII most designs used piston engines, SFE if you will, though performances were improved its not something BTU models. Towards the end jet fighters started making an appearance and even though jet engines (XLs) were more expensive and were not able to be produced in the numbers military planners may have wanted they did make an appearance, analogous to TRO 3050 which had the upgrade kits for mechs . . . but the XLs were not common.
But the 1950s roll around in the Korean War . . . we started with the same fighters and bombers forming the core of the air forces but the number of jets were increasing (TRO3055/58/60) because the infrastructure to build the needed numbers of jet engines to convert the forces were coming online. The machines that built the machines that built the machines that built jet engines if you will, and here is where economies of scale comes into play IMO b/c the jet engine for a fighter in '44 was more expensive and rare than the Sabre's engine in '50-ish when the US was converting to jets and during that airframe's tenure they built nearly 10k.
I think the XXL might best be mirrored in the SR-71 to F-22. The SR-71 came out during Gen 2 fighters, extremely expensive and high performance like the XXL in the 3050s, and while some of the research and materials was used in Gen 3 fighters it was not until Gen 4 with the F-22 a production airframe with similar capabilities for speed came into being. Understand I am generalizing b/c they are not designed for the same profile- recon vs superiority.
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I'm reasonably certain that the original prices for XXLs were for prototype units - might not be purely handbuilt, but it's at best a small, high security R&D plant.
When we have to factor in here is the scale of the universe (and FASAnomics not making any sense) - Just picking the Vlar 300 XL, in modern times, it has been in production for many decades, at multiple planets and probably from the same techbase, in quantities that probably exceed a few dozen a day. That is a significantly higher production than any real world military would enjoy - after all, we only have this one planet to ruin. The fact that the republic outfitted a garrison hovertank produced by the hundreds with an XXL makes me assume that while R&D costs might still be astronomical, the actual production cost can't be that much higher than an XL.
Still, the Zeus isn't a mainline unit, so that might be a problem it doesn't have.
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Ladies and gentlemen, two things:
1. This is a thread about the Zeus, not economics. Take that to General.
2. Do not start bringing up military procurement or other real-world political issues. That gets Rule 4 in a hurry.
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Just finished up kitbashing the Zeus Leonidas, after mistaking a 9S2 for it for so many years. I like both, and still pretty enamored of the 6Y.
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While the number of production variants stops at seven, four more experimental versions exist. A brief trial was tried on the 6S during the Succession Wars, called the 6Y. Downgrading the missile rack allowed the large laser to be increased to a blazer. The test designs did not fare well with the installation of the binary laser and the experiment was halted.
I feel like this kind of gives short shrift to the 6Y. It’s actually the most interesting Succession Wars Zeus, to me at least. And the XTRO makes clear that it was more than a prototype, and saw limited production. How many other production designs out there have a Blazer? A shame it didn’t become more widespread, really.
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As a Lyran, I love the Zeus, I just wish there was an official model with a LB-10X and at least a couple tons of ammo per ammo using weapon...
Ruger
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As a Lyran, I love the Zeus, I just wish there was an official model with a LB-10X and at least a couple tons of ammo per ammo using weapon...
Ruger
The Zeus X-WD is pretty close with its LB-20X and HPPC.
There's also Stacy's modified Zeus X-WD that does have LB-10X though that one is unfortunately unique.
Unfortunately the Lyrans really started liking PPC Zeus after the T model, they haven't really bothered with anything else except the Gauss-armed S2.
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The low ammo is kind of part of it being a zeus, is it not?
That said, the AC version in the SW has no ammo problems with that and hopefully won't as reliably explode - Still, there sure aren't many variants for a mech serving for so long; I kind of consider the Zeus X it's own machine, really. It's 80 tons and has a similar name, and that's mostly where the similarities end.
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The Zeus doesn't really have low ammo, IMO. In an introductory version, low ammo is a boon, and 8 shots (for the LRM) is good enough. Especially since the ammo is in a side torsos without padding.
The 9S has only one ton of ammo for the LRM and CASE which is a bit dubious but if you use all long range weapons while approaching, the ammo probably runs out around the time you bring the MPL to play, this allows it to run cool so it works out pretty nicely. Not ideal, but there are 'Mechs with worse issues, like two tons of Streak ammo for Streak-2 and no CASE.
The 9S2 and 9T feature 2 tons of ammo per weapon, ie standard load that isn't really regarded as being too low.
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I always felt the Zeus should be emptying the LRM battery on the way in to melee things since the lasers would be best in close.
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And isn’t the Zeus’s LRM arm specifically fluffed as being built for punching? All the more reason to have emptied your LRMs before you get close.
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And isn’t the Zeus’s LRM arm specifically fluffed as being built for punching? All the more reason to have emptied your LRMs before you get close.
This was ALWAYS my favorite piece of Zeus fluff.
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The Zeus features Barrel Fist design quirk on right arm as for BMM, which means the arm functions as if it had hand actuator when it comes to punching.
Doesn't make it good in melee, with its somewhat thin armor for its size and the left arm lacking the "barrel fist" feature and hand actuator but then again, it could be worse.
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You know what, I'm a little disappointed we never had art work of the Zeus punching someone with it's LRM gauntlet.
Think this is close as it gets:
https://www.deviantart.com/steampoweredmikej/art/Battletech-Open-Sesame-343835989
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With the release of Record Sheets Succession Wars came a handful of new mechs. One was a new Zeus, the -6A. It appeared during the first third of 3SW. I have a theory about its providence.
The original Zeus were the -5S and -5T. Production started one year apart, and appears concurrent. Possibly different lines, possibly one line switching back and forth as supplies became available. After lostech hit the -5S got downgraded to the -6S. The -5T disappears. But what if it didn’t disappear all at once? What if it became the -6A, which was different enough they couldn’t call it the 6T? They do share the PPC/L Las combo.
Anyway, wherever the 6A comes from, it’s designed to use, as stated above, a PPC in the left arm and a L Las in the left torso that are mostly covered by the heat sinks; if you stick to walking you have to drop a weapon one turn out of three to maintain speed. But rather than stick to an LRM launcher the mech didn’t have sinks for, whoever made the -6A went original with the right arm, and installed ALL the SRMs. Eighteen tubes in three racks plus the typical Zeus medium laser leaves you two sinks left over for running. One ton of ammo shared among the launchers isn’t a lot, but since it’s a point blank weapon on a bracket firing mech, five turns might just be enough without being so much it tuns into a liability ammo bomb.
MUL doesn’t give users or extinction dates, but since it wasn’t in TRO:3025 it probably fell out of production at some point, perhaps as PPCs became rarer.
TLDR: two hole punchers followed by a really respectable number of critseekers. Costs almost as much as the later -6T but doesn’t pay for weapons it doesn’t have the sinks to use.
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Interesting.
I'd seen a note about the 6A somewhere but didn't know the stats.
It might be my favorite L1 version now.
But, I think I'd have preferred 12 SRM Tubes instead of 18 for an extra ton of ammo & kept the Heatsinks
Make it Triple-4's or Double-6's and then you can fire the big beamers while walking & swap out the PPC for the SRMs in close. And give them Inferno love w/ that extra ton.
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Sounds like something you sneak into a force, and group it in a fire lance with other Zeuses. Someone tries to get in close, under the LRMs and PPCs and ACs...and they meet the SRMs. >:D
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Or as back up to a Hunchback in a Lyran city . . . someone needs to make this and just stick part of a SRM Carrier's rack on the end of the arm.
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Any kitbash of this model must consist of an entire beat up SRM Carrier (tracks included) jammed crudely on the end of the Zeus's arm. ;)
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Light SRM Carrier Turret Portion.
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Any kitbash of this model must consist of an entire beat up SRM Carrier (tracks included) jammed crudely on the end of the Zeus's arm. ;)
It can give people the Macross Missile-spam Fist?
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Light SRM Carrier Turret Portion.
Attached by duct tape.
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Now I have to try this in the HBS game, since the .json file is out in the open. ^-^
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What would you prefer? The OG Prototype 5T or the 3050 era 9S?
They are functionally identical really with just a few small changes in back up weapons/armor.
Common features, ERPPC, ERLL, 17DHS, LRM15 w/ 1 Ton ammo.
The differences are in the 15.5 tons allotted to Armor & Close range lasers.
The 5T is sporting the following extra items.
Artemis-IV for the LRMs
2 Medium Lasers
12.5 Tons of Ferro Armor ( = 14 Tons Standard)
The 9S on the other hand goes a little different with the same tonnage.
CASE for the LRM Ammo
2 Medium Pulse Lasers
11 Tons of Ferro Armor ( = 12.32 Tons Standard)
So one is thicker skinned but the other has CASE for when a breach happens.
One has extra accuracy in close v/s range but anything at range is already handled by the 3 primary guns.
One has better damage at range but then has wasted tonnage if any alternate ammo is used.
Thoughts?
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And DHS? That to me is where the decision is really made when comparing range brackets.
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They both use DHS.
How much ammo do they have, one ton? I think that that can be burned through in a short enough time that lack of CASE isn't a huge problem.
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I think that that can be burned through in a short enough time that lack of CASE isn't a huge problem.
In theory, I agree, and yet, I'm still not sold that it is the better option.
After all, even 2-3 remaining salvos going off is going to gut the CT & remove the mech from your inventory unable to be repaired.
Obviously the ideal would be using ML to dump 2 tons into Armor & having CASE too. LOL.
I do love the heat curve of these mechs, 34 for long range guns while running for 34 vent from 17 DHS.
By the time the LRM is empty your in close enough to bring the ML/MPL on line.
So simple & yet it has never felt like some of the cheese layouts that you come to see on other designs w/ perfect heat.
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Sorry, I meant how many DHS.
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As I mentioned above, they both have 17 for 34 cooling. Perfect for a Running Alpha at long range.
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I definitely prefer the armour.
Not because I don't like Case, but because you gotta have some armour.
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I definitely prefer the armour.
Not because I don't like Case, but because you gotta have some armour.
I tend to use the 9S because I'm playing FRR and they don't get the 5T on their RAT, but I also like the armour of the 5T over the CASE of the 9S (although ideally you'd have both) and have been inclined to use it as an "Ace Custom" ride for a lance commander.
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Playing campaign . . . OOC I would want the -9S because I could later upgrade it into the -9S2. Heck, my campaign HAS a -9S . . . though the -9S2 is not yet available in the time line. I had half the thing shot away in one of the 'recent' battles that involved urban battling, it got isolated at a intersection (hey double blind!) but IIRC it had shot its LRMs dry. It was able to hold the intersection and let me mousetrap a few heavy tanks on the street, the Zeus and a Orion were both badly torn up but stopped the counterattack led by the full armor company. Yeah it was in the repair bays for a while but was able to stand in once the LRMs were shot out.
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I'm a big fan of the 9S, simply because it's accessible to most of the Periphery powers even into the Early Republic. The Zeus fits nicely into fire support, trooper, or anchor roles for the often lighter units of the Periphery, and it's not too technologically advanced for them to support by the time of the Jihad. The only thing I usually do is dump the medium pulses for either two ER Mediums or two regular mediums to add another ton of LRM ammunition and another ton of armor, but that's a pretty simple change. It also works well the 9K/D Victor and the 9M Awesome, given their similar movement speeds and firepower. Kick in a 7V Longbow or a Salamander, and that makes for a nice fire/battle assault lance.