Is C3 worth it anymore?

[monbvol]

I've always been dubious of the value of C3.  Entirely too many times it hasn't provided a worthwhile bonus because of LOS issues or the fight had just devolved into an absolute mess.

BC3s only real advantage as far as I can tell is it works despite an interdictor with GECM but with the aforementioned proliferation of AECM I'm not sure it is worth it.

[Klingon]

So perhaps, if ECm is used on enemy side, BV does not multiply for C3..

Nowhere in the BV calculations does it mention anything about opposing ECM. It'll still cost you your BV, you just won't get all that effective use of it until you start taking out ECM suites.

[Foxx Ital]

c3 was starting to give me fits untill the bears started adding more ecm. Now is put it at "tolerable", fun as heck to play against!

[Fatebringer]

C3 was great when ECM was rare in the field. Gentlemanly conduct required you to inform your good opponent that you were fielding C3, to give him an opportunity to counter it. But since everything, including some battle armour, are getting ECM wholesale, standard C3 is going to be harder to use effectively. Boosted C3 is at that point now when Guardian ECM started showing up on more and more designs, only it's Angel ECM that's the real concern.

So, you're looking at 5-tons just to counter Angel ECM with a Boosted C3 Slave and your own AECM  if you're within range. They can still block LOS.

I created a scenario of CGB against DC and had 3 ECM units on the board compared to a total of 12 C3 units. Both sides cried foul and how unbalanced the scenario was, and were both surprised at how close the result was. In the game, the DC units never managed to take out any of the CGB units with ECM and ECM for the mechs was out of the game the entire time. While the one Vehicle Lance that had C3, managed to take advantage of a hidden spotter. (There were 2 forward bunkers on the field, the actual Maxim Mini was inside one. The bunker had an open door so the unit could see out. The players checked the other bunker and never found the Maxim. Near the end of the game, the Maxim lost line of sight on all units assaulting the base and had to move to get new LOS. That surprised the GB's when there was a Maxim spotter suddenly behind them ;) )

[pensiveswetness]

*mumbles* i wonder when they will introduce rules in ATOW for testicular cancer checks with all this talk of ECM, GECM and AECM...  [blank]

[Fatebringer]

I don't know about that, but I love that avatar :)

[pensiveswetness]

I don't know about that, but I love that avatar :)

the name of the author is "Comiker" i think. he is/was a Japanese artist linked to "Ryu Form Site". Both as far as i know are long gone. I thank my brother once again, for telling me again about RFS...

as for C3, in all the years, off and on, of playing BT, i actually never used c3 (does Mechwarrior 3 even count, LOL?) though should The Boy complete the Wolcott Campaign portion, he'll at least get a Lance c3 Kit, so maybe now ill get to 'see if it works'...

though google fails to pull up any pics for 'Comiker' (maybe one that looks familiar) but RFS is spot on... and usually NSFW as semi-nudity is a common theme in at least a 1/4 of his work.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

I've always been dubious of the value of C3.  Entirely too many times it hasn't provided a worthwhile bonus because of LOS issues or the fight had just devolved into an absolute mess.

BC3s only real advantage as far as I can tell is it works despite an interdictor with GECM but with the aforementioned proliferation of AECM I'm not sure it is worth it.

C3 requires several things to be worthwhile

1) Realtively open terrain, or at least several long sight lines that can command a fair portion of the battlefield.  Just like how the BV of an LRM boat is nowhere near it's effectiveness in a heavy urban terrain battle, C3 is equipment for long range combat, make sure you can actually see the enemy at long range.

2) Large maps are a must.  2X2 or less, forget about C3, you'll never have the time to get your spotters out before the whole match devolves into a point blank slugfest anyway.  3X2 or 3X3 maps at least, preferably larger if running a full company.

3) Your force must be able to play a maneuver game against jammers.  Forting up is just begging for the enemy to slip a jammer in either to shut down your masters, or just cut the lines of communications to the spotters.  Be prepared to move to make the jammer's job tougher.

4) A victorious C3 user has his networked units support eachother, then places them on the maps.  The defeated C3 user places his units on the map, then tries to get them to support each other.  C3 requires alot of forethought, starting with force selection.  Figure out your mix of firesupport, linesman, and pointmen/spotters, then pick designs that compliment each other.  Also have plans for how to deal with hostile ECM, from loading up on weapons with a seven hex short range (ER PPCs, ER Lasers, Gauss Rifles (Standard and Light), and LRMs primarily), to maybe bringing a 'lightning bruiser' to deliberately crash an ECM bubble to take out the carrier directly.  One of the biggest mistakes I've seen with C3 Networks is picking units to fill the network slots without considering how they'd work together.  This leads to flawed networks with things like not having a unit faster than the rest to rush out to get the bonuses early.  Another common mistake is taking a big slow mid to short range design.  That is the role for more mobile spotters and linesmen, the big slow bruisers are for firesupport.  The King Crab (005r), Blackwatch, and Katana-C are examples of this, avoid them!  They'll be out of the fight too long just trying to reach the edge of their maximum range.

5) Don't get too greedy, just getting the jump from being at long range and shooting at medium range TNs is like going from regular gunners to elites, and while not as powerful, it is harder to shut down.  At times consider taking half a loaf rather than letting the enemy's ECM steal the whole loaf from you.

[Diablo48]

...Another common mistake is taking a big slow mid to short range design.  That is the role for more mobile spotters and linesmen, the big slow bruisers are for firesupport.  The King Crab (005r), Blackwatch, and Katana-C are examples of this, avoid them!  They'll be out of the fight too long just trying to reach the edge of their maximum range.

Now that I am thinking about it, these designs are probably great for ambush scenarios and double-blind games where you can get them into position before the fighting starts.  This lets you take advantage of their crushing firepower without having to wait for them to get into position, although there are obviously limitations to this.

That said, I feel like the Black Watch should be useful in the open because the UAC 10 has fairly average range and it does not need to get much closer to bring the MRM to bear (and it has to wait for a spotter to use that anyways), although I do think it would do better if it was a little bit faster.

[monbvol]

C3 requires several things to be worthwhile

1) Realtively open terrain, or at least several long sight lines that can command a fair portion of the battlefield.  Just like how the BV of an LRM boat is nowhere near it's effectiveness in a heavy urban terrain battle, C3 is equipment for long range combat, make sure you can actually see the enemy at long range.

Good example for C3, bad analogy for LRM boats.  I've used LRM indirect fire to my advantage against foes who thought I'd be too busy trying to shoot what is in front of me and forget about what is actually available for me to shoot at.

2) Large maps are a must.  2X2 or less, forget about C3, you'll never have the time to get your spotters out before the whole match devolves into a point blank slugfest anyway.  3X2 or 3X3 maps at least, preferably larger if running a full company.

Even at 2x2 I've had too many times where I got nothing better than Medium Range shots without a single ECM in the way of anything for me to really feel like C3 was worth the price I paid for it.

3) Your force must be able to play a maneuver game against jammers.  Forting up is just begging for the enemy to slip a jammer in either to shut down your masters, or just cut the lines of communications to the spotters.  Be prepared to move to make the jammer's job tougher.

C3 or not this tends to be good advice if ECM is on the field.

4) A victorious C3 user has his networked units support each other, then places them on the maps.  The defeated C3 user places his units on the map, then tries to get them to support each other.  C3 requires alot of forethought, starting with force selection.  Figure out your mix of firesupport, linesman, and pointmen/spotters, then pick designs that compliment each other.  Also have plans for how to deal with hostile ECM, from loading up on weapons with a seven hex short range (ER PPCs, ER Lasers, Gauss Rifles (Standard and Light), and LRMs primarily), to maybe bringing a 'lightning bruiser' to deliberately crash an ECM bubble to take out the carrier directly.  One of the biggest mistakes I've seen with C3 Networks is picking units to fill the network slots without considering how they'd work together.  This leads to flawed networks with things like not having a unit faster than the rest to rush out to get the bonuses early.  Another common mistake is taking a big slow mid to short range design.  That is the role for more mobile spotters and linesmen, the big slow bruisers are for firesupport.  The King Crab (005r), Blackwatch, and Katana-C are examples of this, avoid them!  They'll be out of the fight too long just trying to reach the edge of their maximum range.

I'll grant this could be part of my problem, I'm just not using the right combination of C3 mechs when I use it.  That can go a long way to making C3 less useful.

5) Don't get too greedy, just getting the jump from being at long range and shooting at medium range TNs is like going from regular gunners to elites, and while not as powerful, it is harder to shut down.  At times consider taking half a loaf rather than letting the enemy's ECM steal the whole loaf from you.

My problem as previously mentioned is that C3 seems too expensive for what it reliably delivers even when ECM is not on the board.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Good example for C3, bad analogy for LRM boats.  I've used LRM indirect fire to my advantage against foes who thought I'd be too busy trying to shoot what is in front of me and forget about what is actually available for me to shoot at.

IDF still will have less accuracy, and requires a spotter unless you NARCed someone.  And there is no friendly ECM to deal with that problem.  Just because you can get some use out of them does not mean you are getting full value for your BV.

Even at 2x2 I've had too many times where I got nothing better than Medium Range shots without a single ECM in the way of anything for me to really feel like C3 was worth the price I paid for it.

Which is why I note 2x2 as a no go for C3.  If you buy C3, you are comitting to a long range fight.  And that requires you actually have the room to deploy and make your opponent fight through such an engagement to close on you.

C3 or not this tends to be good advice if ECM is on the field.

I'll grant this could be part of my problem, I'm just not using the right combination of C3 mechs when I use it.  That can go a long way to making C3 less useful.

My problem as previously mentioned is that C3 seems too expensive for what it reliably delivers even when ECM is not on the board.

Dealing with ECM goes from 'a nice idea' to rather vital if you deploy C3.

Generally there are three roles in a C3 net
Firesupport.  These are your long range beat sticks.  Heavy long range firepower, and generally a good place to stash a C3M.  Two reasons, one they tend to be your larger units, and thus can spare the room for the 5 ton master unit, and two they will be the units standing off and thus better protected from return fire.  Concentrate on guns that have a short range of at least seven.  Not only does that give you more range to stand off, but lets you (initiative permitting) park your pointman just outside the ECM bubble but still have short range TNs.  The Combine's Naginata and FedSun's Ajax Beta are good examples of firesupport done right.  Generally you will come down on the firepower and armor ends of the 'firepower/armor/maneuverability' triangle.

Linesman.  These are the swing role players.  Generally giving up some range for extra firepower, they play between the firesupport and pointmen.  LB-10X, UAC/10s, MRMs, standard large lasers, and/or banks of short range guns.  They have two missions besides 'kill the enemy'.  One keep the anyone from rushing the firesupport/master units.  Two, if you run out of pointmen, one of them can move forward to take up that mission.  These designs tend to be a balance of speed, protection, and firepower.  The Avatar-Delta, Crusader 5K, Grasshopper 7K, or Crab-C.

Spotter/Pointmen.  Speed ueber alles.  To both string out to get the low TNs quickly, to avoid being pinned and jammed by enemy ECM, and to survive the attention once you get there.  After that, protection, then finally firepower, if you have room.  Spotters tend to be lightly armed, if at all.  Certain C3S equipped VTOLs have no offensive weapons at all.  Pointmen have firepower to be regular combatants in their own right, but their C3 Slave is the primary 'weapon package'.  The Jenner -C, Wolverine 8C (though a bit slow for the role), and Grand Dragon are pointmen, while the Owens, Hitman-2M, Sprint and Crow are spotters.

In a full company, maybe a 5-4-3 distribution, or a 6-4-2 if you are confident that a linesman would be pretty good as a backup pointman.

[Marwynn]

Listen to that man. He knows what is what.

I'll add that I attempted a Boosted C3 Network last weekend and one Angel ECM pretty much ruined it. A Boosted C3 Slave is 3 tons. An AECM is 2 tons and negated 15 tons total.

Without adequate shooers-away of stuff with ECM, C3 is mostly not-worth-it.

That said, I won.

Why?

Because I didn't give a damn about the C3 network. It became my opponent's priority. It did absolutely nothing, and he was feeling smug that he managed to deny my C3 throughout the whole game.

It's an expensive thing to pull, BV-wise but one way to use C3 is to not use C3 at all.

[monbvol]

I almost always have spotters available for my LRMs.  As such even if ECM is on the the field and in the face of my LRM boat while I may not get maximum efficiency from the reduced accuracy the fact that it even works at all is miles better of a drawback than C3, and thus why I consider it a bad example.

Size of the maps actually matters less than the type of map I find and that is where I find my greatest difficulty with C3, getting Line of Sight from the attacker to the spotted unit.  I've just had too many issues with clutter on even fairly open maps for me to really be sold on C3.

I get the theories just fine.  The problem I'm finding in selecting designs is finding anything that actually delivers on the promise of the theory.

[Diablo48]

IDF still will have less accuracy, and requires a spotter unless you NARCed someone.  And there is no friendly ECM to deal with that problem.  Just because you can get some use out of them does not mean you are getting full value for your BV.

I think you are seriously underestimating the utility of indirect LRMs in urban combat.  A mess of conventional infantry spotting for some old LRM Carriers is a nightmare to root out of a city because you can never get rid of the spotters while the carriers rain fire on you, and the addition of a few hard hitters like Demolishers or SRM Carriers to back up the infantry makes rushing the LRM boats suicidal.  It gets even worse if double-blind rules are in effect because then you have no idea where anything is while LRMs keep raining down on your forces.

I almost always have spotters available for my LRMs.  As such even if ECM is on the the field and in the face of my LRM boat while I may not get maximum efficiency from the reduced accuracy the fact that it even works at all is miles better of a drawback than C3, and thus why I consider it a bad example.

Size of the maps actually matters less than the type of map I find and that is where I find my greatest difficulty with C3, getting Line of Sight from the attacker to the spotted unit.  I've just had too many issues with clutter on even fairly open maps for me to really be sold on C3.

I get the theories just fine.  The problem I'm finding in selecting designs is finding anything that actually delivers on the promise of the theory.

I think the problem is your positioning.  It might help if you stop thinking of that as clutter and start thinking of it as good firing positions.  Sure the enemy can hit you easily when you are up on the hill above all the obstructions, but that just means you can hit back as well.

[monbvol]

Positioning is something I'm familiar with and frankly I still stand by that too many times I've lost benefit of C3 due more to what terrain was on the map than enemy ECM.

Now to be fair terrain does have an impact on a lot of other gear but a fair amount of that gear can fight back against terrain.

[garhkal]

In a full company, maybe a 5-4-3, or a 6-4-2 if you are confident that a linesman would be pretty good as a backup pointman.

Pointmen/Spotters.  The guys in the hot seat.

For me 3 spotters is a must for company battles.  So i would favor the 5/4/3 bracketing.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

For me 3 spotters is a must for company battles.  So i would favor the 5/4/3 bracketing.

Like I said, one of the job of Linesmen is to be 'promoted' (or would that be demoted?  O:-)) to a pointman once you run out of dedicated spotters/pointmen.  The survivability of your pointmen is an issue too, the PHX-7K?  Good luck pinning that down.  The TBT-9K Trebuchette is a medium linesman that has the speed to (barely) work as a spotter.  It's mostly a judgement call.

[garhkal]

A spider or wraith with one of its weapons switched out for a C3 slave would make for a great spotter.

[Charlie Tango]

A spider or wraith with one of its weapons switched out for a C3 slave would make for a great spotter.

Venom 9KC.

[Maskerade]

Whilst BV-wise, C3 is nearly useless, as it is so easily countered by a lower-BV, lighter and smaller piece of equipment, it's when you consider in-universe cost that it comes into its own.

For the same C-bill cost as a Mad Cat, I can have a lance of 4 50-ton C3-equipped mechs, with a master unit, 2 line units and an LRM boat. The BV is still fairly out of balance for its tabletop effectivness, but the actual C-bill cost and effectiveness is pretty good overall.

Another thing that is under-appreciated is inter-unit compatibility. If you have a C3 computer, you can link it through a C3 network to any oher C3-equipped vehicle. Suddenly, those small hovercrafts with C3 look much scarier when you realise that you're going to be hit by 4+ PPCs that are effectively firing at close range, but without those inconvenient minimum range penalties. A couple of scouts, a few heavily-armoured master units, and a force of mechs augmented by yellow jacket snipers is suddenly incredibly powerful. BV-wise, you'll pay heavily for it, but in-universe, you shouldn't pay too much for it, making it very attractive. Add some GECM on the spotters and you get a decent chance of jamming enemy ECM and having your C3 network retain effectiveness.

[pensiveswetness]

i thought minimum range penalties still apply, regardless of other modifiers being negated by proximity to the target in question?

[Weirdo]

Minimum range modifers are still derived from the actual shooter's distance to the target. Same with any range-based damage, such as with HGRs or SN-PPCs. If the C3 LRM boat is 18 hexes away and the C3 spotter is 4 hexes away, then barring ECM, short range modifiers apply but minimum range ones do not.

[pensiveswetness]

*nods* thought i was right. just the above examples needed... clarification? *shrug* Ive ran c3 once so far with The Boy (from the Roll Playing POV that the system is so new, its still suffering from Samuri Issues from the Highbound Rank & File, thus why some gijen mercs have a lance equiped) and other than making sure the LOS is legit, its been murder for the 2nd line clan garrison he's facing so for (its after Wolcott so no 1st line units so far). one question though, while i have your ear: Does C3 require clear established LOS. can particial cover from a building or 2 light Woods/a single Heavy wood hex prevent the network from working?

[monbvol]

The network itself does not require Line of Sight to communicate.

For spotting/providing benefit though terrain can still matter.  I believe there is some errata for how C3 spotting is effected by terrain going into the next revision of Total Warfare but I can't remember the specifics on it.

Bottom line as far as I know the unit firing to receive any benefit must still have valid Line of Sight and any terrain along the Line of Sight from the unit doing the actual firing to the targeted unit is still applied.

[garhkal]

i thought minimum range penalties still apply, regardless of other modifiers being negated by proximity to the target in question?

Nope.  If you (my c3 lancemate) are at 1 hex away i can plaster you with LRMs since the min is computed from ME not it.