Tag & homing artillery

[Descronan]

Question came up this weekend that we found interesting. The rules do not specify any limitations to TAG.

An aerospace fighter was coming in for a dive bomb over a Schiltron with ARTAIS2 and TAG. Is there any reason why TAG cannot be used against aerospace fighters?

Are there any units that cannot be hit by TAG and Arrow IV?

I recall a rule back in the day (might have been a house rule), that said you couldn't target infantry or battle armor with TAG/Arrow.

Thanks in advance!

[Tai Dai Cultist]

You can TAG an aerospace unit overcoming the central zone, but homing rounds still won't hit it.  (It's on the radar map, not the playing area)

Also keep in mind that there are no homing rounds in standard artillery rules.  If you're using homing rounds young have to be using the optional artillery rules.

[Xochi]

You can TAG an aerospace unit overcoming the central zone, but homing rounds still won't hit it.  (It's on the radar map, not the playing area)

Also keep in mind that there are no homing rounds in standard artillery rules.  If you're using homing rounds young have to be using the optional artillery rules.

All Arrow IV are homing rounds unless alternate ammunition is used.

Artillery-fired homing rounds (including Arrow IV homing missiles and Copperhead artillery munitions) are specifically designed to damage a single target unit, rather than delivering area-effect damage. Unless alternate munitions rules are in effect (see pp. 76-82), only the Arrow IV artillery systems may fire homing rounds.

TAG can be used in many ways, including laser targeting the ground for Laser Guided Bombs. I do not think their is any rule against Tagging other than it has to be tagged the round that the impact will happen. So if you TAG an Aerospace, the missile needs to be within 34" of the unit for same round impact to work. So I think that's within... 24" of the flight line?

I use TAG all the time to murder Infantry to close to my units, to avoid splash damage.

[Xochi]

You can TAG an aerospace unit overcoming the central zone, but homing rounds still won't hit it.  (It's on the radar map, not the playing area)

Also keep in mind that there are no homing rounds in standard artillery rules.  If you're using homing rounds young have to be using the optional artillery rules.

No restrictions as long as it follows this:

TAG is used to designate targets for homing artillery attacks. A unit with this ability may designate targets in the Short and Medium range brackets (see Artillery, p. 73).

[DarkJaguar]

You can TAG an aerospace unit overcoming the central zone, but homing rounds still won't hit it.  (It's on the radar map, not the playing area)

While I certainly agree with your logic, I cannot find any evidence in the rules to support this statement actually being the case.  An aerospace unit is considered to be <6" away from any other point within 2" of the flight line, and 14-∞" away from any point more than 2" from the flight line as far as  the game mechanics are concerned.  The only restriction on targets for homing artillery seems to be that they be within 34" of the chosen aiming point, and thus, any flight line that passes within 22" of the chosen impact zone would seem to be a perfectly viable target.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

With regards to there not being any homing rounds in Standard rules artillery:

Citation #1:

There are no homing rounds in standard rules artillery.
TAG, in standard rules artillery, gives a -2 to-hit modifier to indirect arrow IV attacks instead.

Citation #2:
Errata establishes a Standard rules version of Artillery.  Alternate ammo is never called out as being allowed by the Standard rules Artillery.  (can't quote the absence of a rule..)

Citation #2a

OTOH, alternate ammo is located within the optional rules section of the Alpha Strike rulebook (Alternate Munitions, pg 76.  Optional rules begin on pg 62)

[Tai Dai Cultist]

With regards to not being able to attack units on the radar map with artillery:

Air Defense Arrow and Air to Air Arrow rules allow attacks into the radar map. Homing rounds never grant the ability. Homing rounds may be fired from the radar map onto the ground map, but not vice versa.

With regards to Homing Arrows (assuming you're using optional rules)

You can't declare a POI on the radar map.
You CAN probably TAG an overflying unit if within range of the flight path, but again the aero unit is not on the ground map.  It's on the radar map, and therefore can never satisfy the conditions necessary for homing rounds to get a roll to-hit: TAG'd, and within 34" of the homing round's POI.

[Scotty]

The fighter is treated as being along its entire flight path simultaneously for the purposes of other shooting; it stands to reason that a POI within 22" of a flightpath would be within 34" of a fighter following the rules for adding +12" to the range if the attacker is not on the flight path.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Scotty, you got a citation?  It's rude to say I just flaty don't believe you... but I don't believe you. I'm not trying to pick a fight as normally if you say something I take it as just about gospel... you're rarely wrong.  But on this one, I really don't think you have it right.

For example: by that logic, you can hit Aero units with non-homing Artillery if the POI is on top of the flight path.


In scouring the Ground-to-air fire rules again, I see a couple passages:

Ground to-
Air fire is resolved using the standard weapon attack rules in
standard Alpha Strike, but with the following modifications.

First of all, no optional rules appear to be valid in ground to air fire.  Standard rules only, and with further exceptions as listed later in that section.  That rules out Homing rounds, which are optional rules. 

But even if that's not the case, there's the problem of extending range to flight path to include measuring from POIs to flight path.

The entirety of the "determining range" section is as follows:

Determine Range
To determine the range between a non-aerospace unit to an
airborne aerospace unit, measure from the edge of the attacker’s
base to the nearest point along the airborne aerospace unit’s
flight path that also lies within the attacker’s forward arc, then add
12 inches to that distance.
If the attacking unit is standing within 2 inches of the aerospace
unit’s flight path, disregard the above measurement rules and
treat the range to the target as Short.

Nothing about measuring POIs to flight path; only units to flight path.

The most recent errata doc doesn't alter any of these quotes.

[Scotty]

POIs for normal artillery rounds reach "up" the same amount of distance as their radius; that means they may have an effective range of 0" to the aerospace unit as far as determining range is concerned, but an AOE can't hit anything on the flight path, because it's at a higher altitude.  After all, the range to a VTOL (for example) is unaffected by its elevation, that just happens to have nothing at all to do with where the explosion goes off.  That part is easy.

Moreover, "it stands to reason" means exactly what I used it to mean: it makes sense.  You're lasing a target.  In Total Warfare (oh, how I hate using Total Warfare to justify rules, but here it makes sense), Homing rounds are fired at mapsheets, and I'm fairly sure (but curiously can't find it explained explicitly in the text, for reasons I'm sure have to do with how much of an edge case this is) that a fighter that crossed through that mapsheet is a valid target.

And much more importantly: it doesn't break anything, in the slightest.  The chance to hit with one against a TAG'd target is exactly the same as an ADA AIV, but requires the TAG in the first place, and can't reach out to the Inner Ring like an ADA AIV.  There's not equipment encroachment, and it is arguably a less effective use of an Arrow IV launcher than just bringing ADA AIV in the first place.

The exact text of the book probably needs a minor errata, because I'm sure you won't be the only one to bring up RAW (which isn't a knock on you at all), but the actual issue resolves itself pretty clearly when viewed in the lens of "yeah that seems right".

(If anything, "A POI isn't a unit and therefore Homing Artillery's POI can never be close enough to a fighter to work because the rules for checking distance to a flightpath use the word 'unit' only" fails the 'does it make sense?' criteria pretty hard.  Technical writing is hard enough already.)

[Tai Dai Cultist]

POIs for normal artillery rounds reach "up" the same amount of distance as their radius; that means they may have an effective range of 0" to the aerospace unit as far as determining range is concerned, but an AOE can't hit anything on the flight path, because it's at a higher altitude.  After all, the range to a VTOL (for example) is unaffected by its elevation, that just happens to have nothing at all to do with where the explosion goes off.  That part is easy.

Kind of an aside... I'm pretty sure this was asked and answered previously, but I couldn't find it in drafting my previous post.  Do you recall if the "up" of the AOE is spherical or cylindrical? That is, if something is 2" above the poi and right on the edge of the template, is it hit or not?  It's totally not realistic to be cylindrical, but it's so much less math than figuring the AOE is spherical.

Moreover, "it stands to reason" means exactly what I used it to mean: it makes sense.

Common sense is so funny because people can't agree on it :)  As a point of contrast, to me "it stands to reason" that the fighter isn't at every point along the flight path for the entire duration of an Alpha Strike turn (which is unofficially 3 CBT turns) but that it's presumed ground units can time their fire to take advantage of the shortest range to the flight path.  That doesn't carry over very well to artillery which doesn't have that degree of control over when exactly it arrives.

In Total Warfare..

I wasn't gonna go there.  But it's interesting you did, because I was under the impression that hitting an (airborne!) ASF with a homing round was impossible in CBT/Boardgame BattleTech.  Now I'm curious if it is or isn't.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Punted the question to nckestrel.

[DarkJaguar]

The exact text of the book probably needs a minor errata, because I'm sure you won't be the only one to bring up RAW (which isn't a knock on you at all), but the actual issue resolves itself pretty clearly when viewed in the lens of "yeah that seems right".

I feel attacked  ;). But the way I see it, RAW may not explicitly allow it, but RAI seems pretty open to the idea in my opinion, so I would second the need for an errata clarification.

[Xochi]

I forgot that they actually made Artillery standard rules, since all we ever use is advanced/optional. But a -2 modifier is strange, since normally a spotter with tag gives a -1 if they have TAG/LTAG and are within 24"/6" to both Arrow IV and cannons (not the ART-SC.. but ART-LT, ART-S etc...). Wonder why they decided to only give it to Arrow IV for standard ruling.

To point to Scotty's Area of effect with hieght, its referenced in the AS-Eratta: Area of Effect (AoE) Damage: Some weapons and effects are described as Area of Effect (AoE), which can affect all units within a given area centered on a point of impact (POI). If a unit is at a different elevation than the POI, the difference in elevation is added to the distance from impact. Thus, a tank on a hill at the edge of a 2” (diameter) AoE template and1” above the POI is treated as if it lies 1” outside the 2” AoE template, but would still be within a 6” AoE template.

EDIT: Standard rules apply a -1, not a -2. ③ Indirect Fire: Artillery can be fired indirectly (see Indirect Fire, p. 35). When fired indirectly, apply an additional –1 to-hit modifier if the spotter has the TAG or LTAG special ability and is within 24” of the target (6” for LTAG).

[nckestrel]

the -2 for TAG and Arrow IV is abstracting TAG and homing.

[Xochi]

the -2 for TAG and Arrow IV is abstracting TAG and homing.

I am trying to find that in the errata and I can only find Indirect Fire modifiers for Standard rules. It would seem a bit weird if the abstraction was only for indirect fire, since you can fire homing missiles under direct fire or indirect, since it relies on the TAG and then rolling a 4 or higher.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

To point to Scotty's Area of effect with hieght, its referenced in the AS-Eratta: Area of Effect (AoE) Damage: Some weapons and effects are described as Area of Effect (AoE), which can affect all units within a given area centered on a point of impact (POI). If a unit is at a different elevation than the POI, the difference in elevation is added to the distance from impact. Thus, a tank on a hill at the edge of a 2” (diameter) AoE template and1” above the POI is treated as if it lies 1” outside the 2” AoE template, but would still be within a 6” AoE template.

Heh, so neither spherical nor cylindrical, but conical AOE in 3-D.

[nckestrel]

I am trying to find that in the errata and I can only find Indirect Fire modifiers for Standard rules. It would seem a bit weird if the abstraction was only for indirect fire, since you can fire homing missiles under direct fire or indirect, since it relies on the TAG and then rolling a 4 or higher.

Weird it is then.

[Xochi]

Weird it is then.

I am looking everywhere in the errata for that -2. Where is it? Did the errata get updated when I wasn't looking after v2.4PRE

[DarkJaguar]

I am trying to find that in the errata and I can only find Indirect Fire modifiers for Standard rules. It would seem a bit weird if the abstraction was only for indirect fire, since you can fire homing missiles under direct fire or indirect, since it relies on the TAG and then rolling a 4 or higher.

the modifiers for homing/copperhead rounds are relatively irrelevant anyway, since they wouldn't even apply to the fixed "4 to-hit" needed to strike a successfully tagged unit, and would only matter if you fired a round that drifted it's POI further than 34" from any successfully tagged unit.

[DarkJaguar]

the -2 for TAG and Arrow IV is abstracting TAG and homing.

Where is this modifier listed? I can't seem to find any -2 modifier for artillery at all

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Where is this modifier listed? I can't seem to find any -2 modifier for artillery at all

Here.  Tho it looks like it hasn't yet been added to errata doc.

[Xochi]

Here.  Tho it looks like it hasn't yet been added to errata doc.

That would be why. Unless its in the official releases, I don't even look at that stuff lol.

[nckestrel]

It was changed to a -1 when the RCN bonus was dropped. It’s been there since it was first posted.
“When fired indirectly, apply an additional –1 to- hit modifier if the spotter has the TAG or LTAG special ability and is within 24” of the target (6” for LTAG).”
Homing rounds for all artillery.  There’s no pending errata to artillery.

[DarkJaguar]

It was changed to a -1 when the RCN bonus was dropped. It’s been there since it was first posted.
“When fired indirectly, apply an additional –1 to- hit modifier if the spotter has the TAG or LTAG special ability and is within 24” of the target (6” for LTAG).”
Homing rounds for all artillery.  There’s no pending errata to artillery.

So it's only -1, not -2?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

It's also of importance to note that in Standard rules the TAG doesn't roll to hit, it automatically works if in range.

[DarkJaguar]

It's also of importance to note that in Standard rules the TAG doesn't roll to hit, it automatically works if in range.

That's always the case for artillery spotters regardless of advanced or standard though.  You only require a spotter with TAG be in range.  Or do you actually have to hit with the TAG to get the bonus in advanced rules?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

That's always the case for artillery spotters regardless of advanced or standard though.  You only require a spotter with TAG be in range.  Or do you actually have to hit with the TAG to get the bonus in advanced rules?

On the turn the homing missile is calculated to arrive at its
destination, one target unit within 34” of the homing round’s
POI must be successfully “painted” by a unit with target
acquisition gear (TAG or LTAG specials). To paint a target, the
TAG- or LTAG-equipped unit must make a special attack roll,
using all the appropriate rules for a standard weapon attack
within the unit’s TAG equipment range.

If you don't hit with TAG, you don't even get your 4+ 2d6 test to see if the Homing missile hits.  (again, contrasted by the Standard version of Artillery rules where TAG works as described upthread)

[Descronan]

Man, I can't wait till we have the Commander's Edition! Juggling errata is getting crazy.

Ok, so this is how I interpreted the situation. The flight path crossed directly in front of the Schiltron placing the Stuka in short range from the Schiltron. We were using TAG and homing rounds as described in the RAW including Errata 2.4. No errata exists for homing rounds and they are standard for ARTAIS.

Homing rounds only need to declare a POI for the purposes of distance from the target. So the Schiltron declared the POI as 2" in front of its self. It has Short Range to the Stuka for TAG and the POI is clearly within 34" of the tagged fighter.

Nothing explicitly states that standard homing rounds cannot attack airborne aerospace on the battlefield. And nothing explicitly states that aerospace units are separate from the battlefield along their flight path.

I would highly recommend clarifying that before you hit print on the Commander's Edition. Remember, many new players are coming in specifically because of Alpha Strike and have no knowledge of TW rules.  The RAW really needs to be stand-alone.

So anyway, our group of 4 experienced players ruled that the homing missiles hit their target due to the successful TAG. This appears to have been wrong. I'll reread the rules and keep an eye on this thread.

Thanks!

[DarkJaguar]

If you don't hit with TAG, you don't even get your 4+ 2d6 test to see if the Homing missile hits.  (again, contrasted by the Standard version of Artillery rules where TAG works as described upthread)

That's not the question I asked.  I was referring to you saying that in standard rules, TAG automatically hits.  That's true of the spotter bonus in standard, and to my understanding advanced artillery.  My question was more along the lines of "What are you implying by saying TAG auto hits in Standard", which isn't true to the best of my reading ability by the way.