Who got Angrier and more ferocious at Luthien?

[Izzy193]

Now we all know from the BTU history books how Luthien played out more or less. What I am curious about is who got angrier and tenacious? The clanners or the Inner Sphere forces? this is debate that might be for the ages in my mind. I set up this poll to see who you guys thought got angrier and tenacious. Do you think it was the DCMS and Mercs, Smoked Jaguars, Takashi Kurita or the Nova Cats? I want to see you're opinions on this historic subject within the BT universe.

[paladin2019]

D. D is always the most Tenacious.

[17thRecon]

Takashi. It was a personal affront to his honor, so much so he listened to guidance from others and fought the right way instead of the traditional way.

[Alan Grant]

Takashi definitely rode the emotional roller coaster the most. Before Luthien, when the mercs were inbound and he was angry at his son. To the battle itself where he got quite fierce but also shifted his tone.

Angriest to me definitely goes to Takashi, but a lot of that was actually prior to the battle. It felt like he was angrier about finding out that his traditional enemies were being welcomed to Luthien than he was about the Clans coming. The experience of actually fighting beside his traditional enemies without them betraying the Combine tempered that anger a bit.

That being said I actually wouldn't be surprised if the Smoke Jaguars topped him by the end of the battle. Once they realized the invasion had failed, they executed some pivots to instead just do as much damage as possible to an iron-ore mine to more desperate tactics like an all-or-nothing assault late in the battle. But we don't get much from canon sources on that. We don't follow the battle from their POV. At least from the novel, I think there is a battle of Luthien sourcebook, but I've never owned that one so perhaps it sheds more light on the Clan POV than I'm aware. With characters and dialogue and revealing what people said and how they said it to even internal head POV of gauging how some Clanners felt during the battle.

Without that POV to actually gauge the emotional state of the Smoke Jaguars or Nova Cats it's really just hard to know. It wouldn't surprise me if the remaining Jaguars and maybe even some of the Nova Cats were foaming-at-the-mouth angry and ferocious toward the battle's end.

I'm guessing the true winner of angriest and most ferocious DURING the Battle of Luthien, goes to some unnamed individual Smoke Jaguar or Nova Cat warrior, who watched all their trothkin die or get captured in the course of the battle, perhaps even some sibkin as part of that mix... and by the end he/she decided they were not going to leave Luthien alive and then executed something akin to an Aidan Pryde last stand or suicidal charge. But without the infamy that some others in that same situation have acquired for doing so.

[Metallgewitter]

I would wager that they Clanners got more ferocious once Theodore used dirty tricks. Like the Trojan Horse Mechs that exploded right when the Clan warriors raced past them

[17thRecon]

IIRC, that was the battle Shin Yodama had both legs and an arm blown off his Phoenix Hawk and he still propped it up and kept firing one of his lasers. He wasn’t on the list, and he was yakuza cool, so not so much angry, but you’ve gotta give the guy top scores in tenacity. He’s like the BT universes version of Monty Python’s Black Night…. “It’s only an actuator wound…we’ll call it a draw then…” 😆

[BrianDavion]

Takashi definitely rode the emotional roller coaster the most. Before Luthien, when the mercs were inbound and he was angry at his son. To the battle itself where he got quite fierce but also shifted his tone.

Angriest to me definitely goes to Takashi, but a lot of that was actually prior to the battle. It felt like he was angrier about finding out that his traditional enemies were being welcomed to Luthien than he was about the Clans coming. The experience of actually fighting beside his traditional enemies without them betraying the Combine tempered that anger a bit.

That being said I actually wouldn't be surprised if the Smoke Jaguars topped him by the end of the battle. Once they realized the invasion had failed, they executed some pivots to instead just do as much damage as possible to an iron-ore mine to more desperate tactics like an all-or-nothing assault late in the battle. But we don't get much from canon sources on that. We don't follow the battle from their POV. At least from the novel, I think there is a battle of Luthien sourcebook, but I've never owned that one so perhaps it sheds more light on the Clan POV than I'm aware. With characters and dialogue and revealing what people said and how they said it to even internal head POV of gauging how some Clanners felt during the battle.

Without that POV to actually gauge the emotional state of the Smoke Jaguars or Nova Cats it's really just hard to know. It wouldn't surprise me if the remaining Jaguars and maybe even some of the Nova Cats were foaming-at-the-mouth angry and ferocious toward the battle's end.

I'm guessing the true winner of angriest and most ferocious DURING the Battle of Luthien, goes to some unnamed individual Smoke Jaguar or Nova Cat warrior, who watched all their trothkin die or get captured in the course of the battle, perhaps even some sibkin as part of that mix... and by the end he/she decided they were not going to leave Luthien alive and then executed something akin to an Aidan Pryde last stand or suicidal charge. But without the infamy that some others in that same situation have acquired for doing so.

I imagine Takashi's thoughts where very much "is my legacy going to be the cordinator who lost Luthein? or worse, the Cordinator who was forced to crawl to his very enemies to help?"

[glitterboy2098]

given that the Combine's entire strategic plan revolved around trolling the Jaguars and Nova Cat's in order to lure them into ambushes and away from vital sites, and generally sowing chaos... i'm going to vote "the smoke jaguars"

[Metallgewitter]

Perhaps a bit off topic but whatever happened to Case Kraken? When Theodore planned his defense he refused to bring more units to Luthien and instead wanted to send those units out ina form of counter offensive as he predicted that the Jaguars and Cats would reduce their defenses for this massive assault. Was it ever launched? If so it might also enrage the Clanners as they screach "How dare you attack us when we attack you!"

[Alan Grant]

I don't recall any Case Kraken, source?

[The Wobbly Guy]

Blood Legacy chapter 31 - Teddy talked about Case Tako (Octopus). Kraken's close enough, I guess.

But Stackpole has a habit of mentioning stuff that didn't pan out to anything. For example, in Prince of Havoc, chapter 18 had the following: "...internecine fighting among members of the Marik family had repeatedly split the realm. That fighting had taken its toll and, luckily for the League, had killed off a fair number of claimants to the throne. Thomas Marik, the current ruler, had survived an assassination attempt..."

Huh? That stuff didn't appear anywhere else in the sourcebooks describing the runup to the FCCW. Not in FM: FWL, nor in Handbook: House Marik.

[OatsAndHall]

I'd say the DCMS certainly grew smarter as they were the only house not heavily involved in shenanigans after the truce was called. The rest of the IS went right back to their GOT bullchit.

[Metallgewitter]

Blood Legacy chapter 31 - Teddy talked about Case Tako (Octopus). Kraken's close enough, I guess.

Yeah that's the one. In my language it's Kraken but Octopus is probably closer. The plan was to launch a massive counterassault on previously occupied planets to ease the expected loss of Luthien

[Alan Grant]

Even if it is retained as canon, it could be treated as an operation that was cancelled.

It actually works well with the canon for that time. Era Report: 3052 makes it clear that the Great Houses were putting their most brilliant minds in rooms and devising plan after plan. A lot of them designed to slow down the Clans, and a lot of them failed, and sent everyone back to the drawing board to devise yet more plans. That also probably means a lot of operations were stood up but cancelled during this chaotic period.

This could be taken as one of those plans, that was formulated, brought to the Coordinator, nearly put into action but then was cancelled, for a dozen different reasons. Or delayed, but delayed long enough that the victory at Luthien happened, then caused the plan to be reconsidered.

Whatever way it panned out, I can't find any references to it besides what you all are telling us the novel says. It does make sense to me that the Coordinator and the DCMS would have some kind of plan for some attempt at an offensive action. After all these are the same brains who executed the DCMS counterattack during the War of '39. It sounds very akin to that.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Blood Legacy chapter 31 - Teddy talked about Case Tako (Octopus). Kraken's close enough, I guess.

But Stackpole has a habit of mentioning stuff that didn't pan out to anything. For example, in Prince of Havoc, chapter 18 had the following: "...internecine fighting among members of the Marik family had repeatedly split the realm. That fighting had taken its toll and, luckily for the League, had killed off a fair number of claimants to the throne. Thomas Marik, the current ruler, had survived an assassination attempt..."

Huh? That stuff didn't appear anywhere else in the sourcebooks describing the runup to the FCCW. Not in FM: FWL, nor in Handbook: House Marik.

Is that not a reference to the bomb blast the led to the fake Thomas Marik being created?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Is that not a reference to the bomb blast the led to the fake Thomas Marik being created?

That's what I took it to mean.  And the Marik Civil War.

[Mendrugo]

There's the Smoke Jaguar Galaxy Commander who was so shamed by his defeat that he gave the Combine a fake name - Ilnay Techus.  (Due to poor coordination re: the specifics between Infocom and Fasa)